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On February 23 2014 05:50 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:35 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:28 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:22 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:05 disciple wrote:
Democracy and votes are like no real solution to some political crisis. Forcing a policy on a minority that ,say, absolutely hates the idea simply cannot pass with the 'but people voted and you lost!' argument. I guess if Ukraine, or any other country for that matter, has such a core conflict between political views and direction it simply has to split so each side can govern itself as it sees fit. Majority vote just sucks when people are so polarized. How about we actually see how the votes go before we start partitioning Ukraine. Sure but a marginal victory for either side wont present any solution whatsoever. well, first of all if we have EU supervised polls in the place we could actually see how far the split is among the people and how much of it is zeo style anti-Ukrainian propaganda. second of all, Ukraine has already experience with dealing with large minority areas like the Crimea where an autonomous Republic has existed since 1993. Third of all, as I've said earlier, in a number of states a large minority of people who feel closely to Russia manage to live just fine -- Kazakhstan has a bigger Russian population and has Russian as a national language and so do the Baltic Republics. Yet mysteriously they seem to get on okay. Correct me if I'm wrong but all Baltic Republics are in the EU right ?
So? Before the mid 2000s they werent. Thats 18 years of a Russian minority seemingly fine living in States that are far more alien to them culturally and linguistically than Ukraine. Why? Because its not in Russia's strategic interest to carve up the Baltics. But having a control of Ukraine's political destiny is important for its gas exports and for Putin's ideology. So no, this isnt some untractable fight that will never be resolved.
This is not about the importance of the Russian cultural influence but about political direction. Kazakhstan has no border to any EU country so it's not worth talking about it in this context. If anything in my humble opinion whoever the has the clear pro-russia platform in the next election has the highest chance of winning cause the opposition like in most of those cases will be hardly unified as there's no one figure to present pro-EU policy in a way protesters will all stand behind while pro-russia is a direction is much more clear cut.
Yanukovich obviously disagreed with you when instead of calling an early parliamentary elections -- it was in his power to dismiss parliament -- as a vote on which policy to pursue East or West he called out troops to beat up protesters. The idea that Ukraine is a 50/50 country is loudly proclaimed by pro-Russian elements yet they are terrified to actually put it to the vote.
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On February 23 2014 05:53 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:41 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 23 2014 05:39 Roman666 wrote:On February 23 2014 05:38 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 23 2014 05:37 DeepElemBlues wrote:On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country. Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago. Who are u to my country to decide what should be here? Who are you to your country to decide what should be there? I'm a citizen, I do have a vote, and u're nothing more that random observer from agrarian country that becomes encumbrance for EU. Then go there and do something about it if you do not like it. Then again I am a random observer from agrarian country that becomes encumbrance for EU, so what the fuck do I know.
I wish I could be a superman or green lantern to do something, those people are selfcontrolled, they probably even don't have a real leader.
Excuse me for comparisons, that was stupid, but I'm a bit stressfull atm.
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Well i see this discussion is constructive one lolz.
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On February 23 2014 05:51 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:42 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Sorry this isn't about imperialist Westerners imposing their views on you, it's about imperialist Russians imposing their views on your country and you being just fine with it, but if the West voices an opinion, Katie bar the door shit just got real that is just so wrong. Now, Putin running your country with strings running right into Yanukovych's back, that's fine, but Westerners wanting the Ukraine to operate on the rule of law (no political prisoners, you don't have to bribe someone to actually get healthcare or other government assistance, etc.), now that is just an unacceptable imposition of their condescending Western worldview. Do you really believe that? lol... I'm all for western Imperialism (well... it's to my own advantage), but let's not pretend the west being some glorious angels descending from heaven to save the poor Ukrainian souls devoured by the devil of Putin. The only difference between western Imperialism and russian Imperialism to me is, that one is on my side, the other is not.
well. one side seems to support people being able to vote and the other side seems to support the opposite so its not that hard to see how one side is better than the other side. Its also not hard to see how EU-inspired reforms pushed Slovakia or Poland or the Baltics closer to European norms than they would otherwise be.
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On February 23 2014 05:48 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:43 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:41 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 23 2014 05:39 Roman666 wrote:On February 23 2014 05:38 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 23 2014 05:37 DeepElemBlues wrote:On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country. Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago. Who are u to my country to decide what should be here? Who are you to your country to decide what should be there? I'm a citizen, I do have a vote, and u're nothing more that random observer from agrarian country that becomes encumbrance for EU. you realize that Poland has a higher industrial output than Ukraine, and there is like 20 million less of them right? Exporting useless equipment to Russia, the only economy its competitive in, doesnt make Ukraine an industrial country... Oh thank you for some lessons! And do u realize that we have no other places to sell our equipment, Russia is the only place, EU won't let our goodz to be in a markets across EU. At least we have pieces of industry, which somehow keeps our poor economy on board. Loosing all the trading deals with Russia means dowlfall of financial situation. I made a comparison in terms of Poland and EU, not Poland and Ukraine. Poland had a better overall economical situtation than Ukraine even before they stepped in Europe Union
EU will not let your goods in, because these are worthless to them. And if you want to be in that limbo your country is in, have at it.
And do not embarass yourself saying that Poland had better overall economical situation than Ukraine. When Soviet Union fell, both Poland and Ukraine were comparable shitholes. It is thanks to the people like you, thinking like elephants, that Ukraine got behind and has lower GDP than opressed Belarus.
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On February 23 2014 04:53 BeaTeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 04:27 MyrMindservant wrote:On February 23 2014 03:12 BeaTeR wrote:
A guy from Lugansk(East Ukraine) just posted there are 3 buses with people from Lviv(West Ukraine) that came in his town. They are trying to capture administration buildings and crushing everything left n right. Military students came to defend the building and found themselfs under gun fire. Did he provide any photos and videos? Because this sounds a bit too similar to the classical governmental propaganda that was and in some places still is so widespread in Ukraine. Also, if he is right and some people indeed came and started smashing everything. There is a hight chance that those people are the so-called titushki. What you described sounds rather close to what they were doing in Kiev lately. well, he said they were speaking pure ukrainian and some broken russian. Here is a video if you have vk.com account.
I don't know what that guy saw, or if he saw anything at all. But linked video is nothing new, a lot of such "reports" are being shown in the eastern Ukraine to radicalize people and make them afraid of the new government. It's not hard to make such stuff by taking some part of a larger video out of context and interpreting it the way you want. And fights are frequently provoked by titushki as I've said before. Although, I don't know what really has taken place there, linked video is too short, dark and ragged/noncontinuous. Also, there was not a single word of Ukrainian language in that video, at least as fas as I was able to hear.
It's pretty funny that they are trying to scare people into being radical and hostile to their own countrymen by telling them about "radical people from the other side".
Oh, and as a note, you can find people who are speaking good Ukrainian is all regions of the country, even Donetsk. Not only in Lviv.
On February 23 2014 05:06 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:04 MyrMindservant wrote:
Dude, are you fine? This is a photoshop. I thought that it was obvious and didn't respond but apparently I was wrong. That thought crossed my mind, though I am not an expert on photography forgery. Looked pretty real for me, if it is really a photoshop then my bad.
Check history of his posts in this thread. Also, I can just go to the building and make a photo myself, but this is not necessary.
He even posted another photoshop now.
On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country. This is one of those cases when I agree with you. Those guys are stupid.
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On February 23 2014 05:51 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:42 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Sorry this isn't about imperialist Westerners imposing their views on you, it's about imperialist Russians imposing their views on your country and you being just fine with it, but if the West voices an opinion, Katie bar the door shit just got real that is just so wrong. Now, Putin running your country with strings running right into Yanukovych's back, that's fine, but Westerners wanting the Ukraine to operate on the rule of law (no political prisoners, you don't have to bribe someone to actually get healthcare or other government assistance, etc.), now that is just an unacceptable imposition of their condescending Western worldview. Do you really believe that? lol... I'm all for western Imperialism (well... it's to my own advantage), but let's not pretend the west being some glorious angels descending from heaven to save the poor Ukrainian souls devoured by the devil of Putin. The only difference between western Imperialism and russian Imperialism to me is, that one is on my side, the other is not.
Do you really believe that? lol... No one needs to pretend the ridiculous scenario you're describing needs paid attention because no one has said that the situation can be neatly described as glorious EU angels saving poor Ukrainian souls from the devil of Putin. Last I checked, those EU angels stood on the sidelines most of the time while the poor Ukrainian souls saved themselves.
Your view on the differences between Western and Russian "imperialism" is grossly naive and ignorant.
http://world.time.com/2014/02/18/kiev-protests-maidan-europe-yanukovych/
How, exactly, is that? In November, the revolution began when President Yanukovych refused to sign an integration deal with the E.U., choosing instead to pursue closer ties with Moscow. Did Kubiv mean that Yanukovych must make another U-turn and take the E.U. deal? “No,” he said. “That’s not enough.” The revolutionaries need to see more than that. They want concrete progress toward the creation of a society with rule of law, no corruption, upward mobility based on merit rather than connections, freedom of the press — all of the values they associate with Europe. “We want all of Ukraine to have the values that we have built here on the Maidan,” Kubiv said.
That is the Western imperialism the EU is trying to impose and that is the Western imperialism you say is no better than Russian imperialism - where does the EU's imperialism include kidnapping and torturing protesters, snipers shooting into crowds, gangs of pro-government hooligans jumping and beating people on the street, other gangs of hooligans (mostly anti-gays) being used by the police as a quasi-official shock force (like the homophobic gangs used by the Russian police to beat up gay rights protesters or just gays in general, they tell the gangs where the gays are then step aside and watch them beat up the gays) journalists being assaulted and murdered, etc., all things that have been done in both the Ukraine and Russia by the pro-Russians or the Russians themselves?
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Interfax Ukraine news agency is reporting that border security officials prevented a charter flight with Viktor Yanukovych aboard, leaving Donetsk. An aide to the chairman of the State Border Service, Serhiy Astakhov, reportedly told the agency that a charter flight tried to leave Donetsk airport "without the required border clearance". According to the border guards, Yanukovych was on board.
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9069 Posts
On February 23 2014 05:56 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:50 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:35 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:28 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:22 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:05 disciple wrote:
Democracy and votes are like no real solution to some political crisis. Forcing a policy on a minority that ,say, absolutely hates the idea simply cannot pass with the 'but people voted and you lost!' argument. I guess if Ukraine, or any other country for that matter, has such a core conflict between political views and direction it simply has to split so each side can govern itself as it sees fit. Majority vote just sucks when people are so polarized. How about we actually see how the votes go before we start partitioning Ukraine. Sure but a marginal victory for either side wont present any solution whatsoever. well, first of all if we have EU supervised polls in the place we could actually see how far the split is among the people and how much of it is zeo style anti-Ukrainian propaganda. second of all, Ukraine has already experience with dealing with large minority areas like the Crimea where an autonomous Republic has existed since 1993. Third of all, as I've said earlier, in a number of states a large minority of people who feel closely to Russia manage to live just fine -- Kazakhstan has a bigger Russian population and has Russian as a national language and so do the Baltic Republics. Yet mysteriously they seem to get on okay. Correct me if I'm wrong but all Baltic Republics are in the EU right ? So? Before the mid 2000s they werent. Thats 18 years of a Russian minority seemingly fine living in States that are far more alien to them culturally and linguistically than Ukraine. Why? Because its not in Russia's strategic interest to carve up the Baltics. But having a control of Ukraine's political destiny is important for its gas exports and for Putin's ideology. So no, this isnt some untractable fight that will never be resolved. Show nested quote +
This is not about the importance of the Russian cultural influence but about political direction. Kazakhstan has no border to any EU country so it's not worth talking about it in this context. If anything in my humble opinion whoever the has the clear pro-russia platform in the next election has the highest chance of winning cause the opposition like in most of those cases will be hardly unified as there's no one figure to present pro-EU policy in a way protesters will all stand behind while pro-russia is a direction is much more clear cut.
Yanukovich obviously disagreed with you when instead of calling an early parliamentary elections -- it was in his power to dismiss parliament -- as a vote on which policy to pursue East or West he called out troops to beat up protesters. The idea that Ukraine is a 50/50 country is loudly proclaimed by pro-Russian elements yet they are terrified to actually put it to the vote.
I dont believe for a second its 50/50 but the so called pro-Russian elements have all the reason to expect a solid number of seats in a potential parliament while the opposition will split votes no matter what. Rooting out the Russian influence is just near impossible to happen.
Edit: Also most ex soviet countries joined EU in mid 2000s, its how long the transition took for everyone.
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Hitler photoshops, Lenin as national hero, Jewish conspiracy and Western imperialism... This thread is awesome!
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On February 23 2014 06:05 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:56 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:50 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:35 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:28 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:22 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:05 disciple wrote:
Democracy and votes are like no real solution to some political crisis. Forcing a policy on a minority that ,say, absolutely hates the idea simply cannot pass with the 'but people voted and you lost!' argument. I guess if Ukraine, or any other country for that matter, has such a core conflict between political views and direction it simply has to split so each side can govern itself as it sees fit. Majority vote just sucks when people are so polarized. How about we actually see how the votes go before we start partitioning Ukraine. Sure but a marginal victory for either side wont present any solution whatsoever. well, first of all if we have EU supervised polls in the place we could actually see how far the split is among the people and how much of it is zeo style anti-Ukrainian propaganda. second of all, Ukraine has already experience with dealing with large minority areas like the Crimea where an autonomous Republic has existed since 1993. Third of all, as I've said earlier, in a number of states a large minority of people who feel closely to Russia manage to live just fine -- Kazakhstan has a bigger Russian population and has Russian as a national language and so do the Baltic Republics. Yet mysteriously they seem to get on okay. Correct me if I'm wrong but all Baltic Republics are in the EU right ? So? Before the mid 2000s they werent. Thats 18 years of a Russian minority seemingly fine living in States that are far more alien to them culturally and linguistically than Ukraine. Why? Because its not in Russia's strategic interest to carve up the Baltics. But having a control of Ukraine's political destiny is important for its gas exports and for Putin's ideology. So no, this isnt some untractable fight that will never be resolved.
This is not about the importance of the Russian cultural influence but about political direction. Kazakhstan has no border to any EU country so it's not worth talking about it in this context. If anything in my humble opinion whoever the has the clear pro-russia platform in the next election has the highest chance of winning cause the opposition like in most of those cases will be hardly unified as there's no one figure to present pro-EU policy in a way protesters will all stand behind while pro-russia is a direction is much more clear cut.
Yanukovich obviously disagreed with you when instead of calling an early parliamentary elections -- it was in his power to dismiss parliament -- as a vote on which policy to pursue East or West he called out troops to beat up protesters. The idea that Ukraine is a 50/50 country is loudly proclaimed by pro-Russian elements yet they are terrified to actually put it to the vote. I dont believe for a second its 50/50 but the so called pro-Russian elements have all the reason to expect a solid number of seats in a potential parliament while the opposition will split votes no matter what. Rooting out the Russian influence is just near impossible to happen.
Russians in Ukraine and Ukrainians who feel closer to Russia than to the West is just a fact of life in Ukraine, just like it is in many other ex-Soviet states. But Ukraine has actually handled them fine before Russian propaganda began equating anyone who wants a potential EU ascension to Hitler. There is the Russian-majority autonomous Republic of Crimea, it has existed since 1993. There is no fascist plan to colonize or ethnically cleanse it. The same would happen in an environment of free elections for all of Ukraine as well. All of citizens rights should be respect, they get to vote, some of the policies that Ukraine might pursue might cause them short term pain but also open the richest market in the world to their products.
And maybe Ukrainians arent ready for the recession that EU reforms will probably require and will vote the pro-EU candidates out -- but the point is there will actually be a vote. Not have a change in the middle of the night at the 11th hour with no consultation and then when the electorate pursues its right to peaceful protest not with police brutality.
If you look at the events in Ukraine they went like this: Yanukovich abruptly abandons EU talks, some Ukrainians protest, Yanukovich responds with police brutality, more Ukrainians protest, more talks and everyone calms down, Yanukovich then passes a law that says public demonstrations are terrorism and tries to amp brutality, the army says no thanks, and we go from there to here.
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On February 23 2014 06:08 Sent. wrote:
Hitler photoshops, Lenin as national hero, Jewish conspiracy and Western imperialism... This thread is awesome!
What is the Jewish conspiracy?
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On February 23 2014 06:26 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 06:08 Sent. wrote:
Hitler photoshops, Lenin as national hero, Jewish conspiracy and Western imperialism... This thread is awesome! What is the Jewish conspiracy?
I am sure youll be able to put together a quick photoshop.
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9069 Posts
On February 23 2014 06:15 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 06:05 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:56 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:50 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:35 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:28 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:22 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:05 disciple wrote:
Democracy and votes are like no real solution to some political crisis. Forcing a policy on a minority that ,say, absolutely hates the idea simply cannot pass with the 'but people voted and you lost!' argument. I guess if Ukraine, or any other country for that matter, has such a core conflict between political views and direction it simply has to split so each side can govern itself as it sees fit. Majority vote just sucks when people are so polarized. How about we actually see how the votes go before we start partitioning Ukraine. Sure but a marginal victory for either side wont present any solution whatsoever. well, first of all if we have EU supervised polls in the place we could actually see how far the split is among the people and how much of it is zeo style anti-Ukrainian propaganda. second of all, Ukraine has already experience with dealing with large minority areas like the Crimea where an autonomous Republic has existed since 1993. Third of all, as I've said earlier, in a number of states a large minority of people who feel closely to Russia manage to live just fine -- Kazakhstan has a bigger Russian population and has Russian as a national language and so do the Baltic Republics. Yet mysteriously they seem to get on okay. Correct me if I'm wrong but all Baltic Republics are in the EU right ? So? Before the mid 2000s they werent. Thats 18 years of a Russian minority seemingly fine living in States that are far more alien to them culturally and linguistically than Ukraine. Why? Because its not in Russia's strategic interest to carve up the Baltics. But having a control of Ukraine's political destiny is important for its gas exports and for Putin's ideology. So no, this isnt some untractable fight that will never be resolved.
This is not about the importance of the Russian cultural influence but about political direction. Kazakhstan has no border to any EU country so it's not worth talking about it in this context. If anything in my humble opinion whoever the has the clear pro-russia platform in the next election has the highest chance of winning cause the opposition like in most of those cases will be hardly unified as there's no one figure to present pro-EU policy in a way protesters will all stand behind while pro-russia is a direction is much more clear cut.
Yanukovich obviously disagreed with you when instead of calling an early parliamentary elections -- it was in his power to dismiss parliament -- as a vote on which policy to pursue East or West he called out troops to beat up protesters. The idea that Ukraine is a 50/50 country is loudly proclaimed by pro-Russian elements yet they are terrified to actually put it to the vote. I dont believe for a second its 50/50 but the so called pro-Russian elements have all the reason to expect a solid number of seats in a potential parliament while the opposition will split votes no matter what. Rooting out the Russian influence is just near impossible to happen. Russians in Ukraine and Ukrainians who feel closer to Russia than to the West is just a fact of life in Ukraine, just like it is in many other ex-Soviet states. But Ukraine has actually handled them fine before Russian propaganda began equating anyone who wants a potential EU ascension to Hitler. There is the Russian-majority autonomous Republic of Crimea, it has existed since 1993. There is no fascist plan to colonize or ethnically cleanse it. The same would happen in an environment of free elections for all of Ukraine as well. All of citizens rights should be respect, they get to vote, some of the policies that Ukraine might pursue might cause them short term pain but also open the richest market in the world to their products. And maybe Ukrainians arent ready for the recession that EU reforms will probably require and will vote the pro-EU candidates out -- but the point is there will actually be a vote. Not have a change in the middle of the night at the 11th hour with no consultation and then when the electorate pursues its right to peaceful protest not with police brutality. If you look at the events in Ukraine they went like this: Yanukovich abruptly abandons EU talks, some Ukrainians protest, Yanukovich responds with police brutality, more Ukrainians protest, more talks and everyone calms down, Yanukovich then passes a law that says public demonstrations are terrorism and tries to amp brutality, the army says no thanks, and we go from there to here.
I'm all for elections in any situation as this is the way for people to express their views and preferences. But in a political scene as delicate as the one of Ukraine it will be years before things look up and go in one direction or the other. It takes time and patience to get results and in a nation thats so galvanized not getting them fast enough will just make things spin around the current status quo
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On February 23 2014 06:05 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:56 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:50 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:35 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:28 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:22 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:05 disciple wrote:
Democracy and votes are like no real solution to some political crisis. Forcing a policy on a minority that ,say, absolutely hates the idea simply cannot pass with the 'but people voted and you lost!' argument. I guess if Ukraine, or any other country for that matter, has such a core conflict between political views and direction it simply has to split so each side can govern itself as it sees fit. Majority vote just sucks when people are so polarized. How about we actually see how the votes go before we start partitioning Ukraine. Sure but a marginal victory for either side wont present any solution whatsoever. well, first of all if we have EU supervised polls in the place we could actually see how far the split is among the people and how much of it is zeo style anti-Ukrainian propaganda. second of all, Ukraine has already experience with dealing with large minority areas like the Crimea where an autonomous Republic has existed since 1993. Third of all, as I've said earlier, in a number of states a large minority of people who feel closely to Russia manage to live just fine -- Kazakhstan has a bigger Russian population and has Russian as a national language and so do the Baltic Republics. Yet mysteriously they seem to get on okay. Correct me if I'm wrong but all Baltic Republics are in the EU right ? So? Before the mid 2000s they werent. Thats 18 years of a Russian minority seemingly fine living in States that are far more alien to them culturally and linguistically than Ukraine. Why? Because its not in Russia's strategic interest to carve up the Baltics. But having a control of Ukraine's political destiny is important for its gas exports and for Putin's ideology. So no, this isnt some untractable fight that will never be resolved.
This is not about the importance of the Russian cultural influence but about political direction. Kazakhstan has no border to any EU country so it's not worth talking about it in this context. If anything in my humble opinion whoever the has the clear pro-russia platform in the next election has the highest chance of winning cause the opposition like in most of those cases will be hardly unified as there's no one figure to present pro-EU policy in a way protesters will all stand behind while pro-russia is a direction is much more clear cut.
Yanukovich obviously disagreed with you when instead of calling an early parliamentary elections -- it was in his power to dismiss parliament -- as a vote on which policy to pursue East or West he called out troops to beat up protesters. The idea that Ukraine is a 50/50 country is loudly proclaimed by pro-Russian elements yet they are terrified to actually put it to the vote. I dont believe for a second its 50/50 but the so called pro-Russian elements have all the reason to expect a solid number of seats in a potential parliament while the opposition will split votes no matter what. Rooting out the Russian influence is just near impossible to happen. Edit: Also most ex soviet countries joined EU in mid 2000s, its how long the transition took for everyone.
I'm sorry but your analysis is off. Ukraine had a three-way split after 2004, which is the only time it had free elections. To keep power Yanukovich resorted to fraud. But if we look at other countries, such as my own home country, Estonia, or Latvia, both of which have large russian-speaking minorities, you'll find that they commonly have coalition governments. The non-Russia side is split, but it's split the same way Germany has splits - the parties come together and negotiate coalition governments. Sometimes the pro-Russia side is in the coalition, sometimes it's not, but as in a coalition all sides are constrained by the good will of their partners, they cannot just do whatever they want. Which brings about a larger part of the population being represented. So a) Pro-Russia being united is not a guarantee of governance, b) coalition governments offer a unified way forward. Btw, a good case in point is Finland which has a large Swedish minority (and a russian-speaking area in the east), where for decades they've had unity governments where both the government and the opposition needs to agree for legislation to be passed. The same was the case for Mongolia. This means that we should refrain from calling for the incredibly radical measure of splitting a country (which is exactly what Putin wants, btw), and instead think of supporting the Ukrainian people in bridging this artificial gap. In fact, if the rumours are true and the Regions Party has turned against Yanukovich, the rather different areas he currently represents might in fact turn out to align under different leaders, providing a similarry varied and split front as the current pro-eu side.
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How, exactly, is that? In November, the revolution began when President Yanukovych refused to sign an integration deal with the E.U., choosing instead to pursue closer ties with Moscow. Did Kubiv mean that Yanukovych must make another U-turn and take the E.U. deal? “No,” he said. “That’s not enough.” The revolutionaries need to see more than that. They want concrete progress toward the creation of a society with rule of law, no corruption, upward mobility based on merit rather than connections, freedom of the press — all of the values they associate with Europe. “We want all of Ukraine to have the values that we have built here on the Maidan,” Kubiv said.
I hope they can achieve that. Then maybe they could teach it to the rest of us.
TBH, I admire their optimism. A society based on merit and without corruption.
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On February 23 2014 05:58 MyrMindservant wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 04:53 BeaTeR wrote:On February 23 2014 04:27 MyrMindservant wrote:On February 23 2014 03:12 BeaTeR wrote:
A guy from Lugansk(East Ukraine) just posted there are 3 buses with people from Lviv(West Ukraine) that came in his town. They are trying to capture administration buildings and crushing everything left n right. Military students came to defend the building and found themselfs under gun fire. Did he provide any photos and videos? Because this sounds a bit too similar to the classical governmental propaganda that was and in some places still is so widespread in Ukraine. Also, if he is right and some people indeed came and started smashing everything. There is a hight chance that those people are the so-called titushki. What you described sounds rather close to what they were doing in Kiev lately. well, he said they were speaking pure ukrainian and some broken russian. Here is a video if you have vk.com account. I don't know what that guy saw, or if he saw anything at all. But linked video is nothing new, a lot of such "reports" are being shown in the eastern Ukraine to radicalize people and make them afraid of the new government. It's not hard to make such stuff by taking some part of a larger video out of context and interpreting it the way you want. And fights are frequently provoked by titushki as I've said before. Although, I don't know what really has taken place there, linked video is too short, dark and ragged/noncontinuous. Also, there was not a single word of Ukrainian language in that video, at least as fas as I was able to hear. It's pretty funny that they are trying to scare people into being radical and hostile to their own countrymen by telling them about "radical people from the other side". Oh, and as a note, you can find people who are speaking good Ukrainian is all regions of the country, even Donetsk. Not only in Lviv. Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:06 Roman666 wrote:On February 23 2014 05:04 MyrMindservant wrote:
Dude, are you fine? This is a photoshop. I thought that it was obvious and didn't respond but apparently I was wrong. That thought crossed my mind, though I am not an expert on photography forgery. Looked pretty real for me, if it is really a photoshop then my bad. Check history of his posts in this thread. Also, I can just go to the building and make a photo myself, but this is not necessary. He even posted another photoshop now. Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country. This is one of those cases when I agree with you. Those guys are stupid.
he said he saw it with his own eyes. i can't guarantee his words a truth, but i doubt he had any reasons to bring some pro-russian propaganda on a football forum...
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On February 23 2014 05:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:51 mahrgell wrote:On February 23 2014 05:42 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Sorry this isn't about imperialist Westerners imposing their views on you, it's about imperialist Russians imposing their views on your country and you being just fine with it, but if the West voices an opinion, Katie bar the door shit just got real that is just so wrong. Now, Putin running your country with strings running right into Yanukovych's back, that's fine, but Westerners wanting the Ukraine to operate on the rule of law (no political prisoners, you don't have to bribe someone to actually get healthcare or other government assistance, etc.), now that is just an unacceptable imposition of their condescending Western worldview. Do you really believe that? lol... I'm all for western Imperialism (well... it's to my own advantage), but let's not pretend the west being some glorious angels descending from heaven to save the poor Ukrainian souls devoured by the devil of Putin. The only difference between western Imperialism and russian Imperialism to me is, that one is on my side, the other is not. Do you really believe that? lol... No one needs to pretend the ridiculous scenario you're describing needs paid attention because no one has said that the situation can be neatly described as glorious EU angels saving poor Ukrainian souls from the devil of Putin. Last I checked, those EU angels stood on the sidelines most of the time while the poor Ukrainian souls saved themselves. Your view on the differences between Western and Russian "imperialism" is grossly naive and ignorant. http://world.time.com/2014/02/18/kiev-protests-maidan-europe-yanukovych/Show nested quote +How, exactly, is that? In November, the revolution began when President Yanukovych refused to sign an integration deal with the E.U., choosing instead to pursue closer ties with Moscow. Did Kubiv mean that Yanukovych must make another U-turn and take the E.U. deal? “No,” he said. “That’s not enough.” The revolutionaries need to see more than that. They want concrete progress toward the creation of a society with rule of law, no corruption, upward mobility based on merit rather than connections, freedom of the press — all of the values they associate with Europe. “We want all of Ukraine to have the values that we have built here on the Maidan,” Kubiv said. That is the Western imperialism the EU is trying to impose and that is the Western imperialism you say is no better than Russian imperialism - where does the EU's imperialism include kidnapping and torturing protesters, snipers shooting into crowds, gangs of pro-government hooligans jumping and beating people on the street, other gangs of hooligans (mostly anti-gays) being used by the police as a quasi-official shock force (like the homophobic gangs used by the Russian police to beat up gay rights protesters or just gays in general, they tell the gangs where the gays are then step aside and watch them beat up the gays) journalists being assaulted and murdered, etc., all things that have been done in both the Ukraine and Russia by the pro-Russians or the Russians themselves?
The LGBT and feminist activists left Maiden a long time ago because they were attacked by their fellow 'protesters'. You seem to think any mention of the rioters glorifying mass murderers and fascists is a Russian narrative, yet you easily fall in to the generic 'Russia hates gays like its the only problem in the world' storyline again and again, like it somehow legitimizes the extremists running Kiev right now.
As for the snipers... sigh... I'm sure Yanukovych looked at what happened in Syria and Libya and thought to himself 'hmm sniping people in the streets won't be the worst thing I can do right now, its not like random sniper killings helped legitimize Al-Quaida rebellions in Syria'
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On February 23 2014 06:29 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 06:15 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 06:05 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:56 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:50 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:35 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:28 disciple wrote:On February 23 2014 05:22 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:05 disciple wrote:
Democracy and votes are like no real solution to some political crisis. Forcing a policy on a minority that ,say, absolutely hates the idea simply cannot pass with the 'but people voted and you lost!' argument. I guess if Ukraine, or any other country for that matter, has such a core conflict between political views and direction it simply has to split so each side can govern itself as it sees fit. Majority vote just sucks when people are so polarized. How about we actually see how the votes go before we start partitioning Ukraine. Sure but a marginal victory for either side wont present any solution whatsoever. well, first of all if we have EU supervised polls in the place we could actually see how far the split is among the people and how much of it is zeo style anti-Ukrainian propaganda. second of all, Ukraine has already experience with dealing with large minority areas like the Crimea where an autonomous Republic has existed since 1993. Third of all, as I've said earlier, in a number of states a large minority of people who feel closely to Russia manage to live just fine -- Kazakhstan has a bigger Russian population and has Russian as a national language and so do the Baltic Republics. Yet mysteriously they seem to get on okay. Correct me if I'm wrong but all Baltic Republics are in the EU right ? So? Before the mid 2000s they werent. Thats 18 years of a Russian minority seemingly fine living in States that are far more alien to them culturally and linguistically than Ukraine. Why? Because its not in Russia's strategic interest to carve up the Baltics. But having a control of Ukraine's political destiny is important for its gas exports and for Putin's ideology. So no, this isnt some untractable fight that will never be resolved.
This is not about the importance of the Russian cultural influence but about political direction. Kazakhstan has no border to any EU country so it's not worth talking about it in this context. If anything in my humble opinion whoever the has the clear pro-russia platform in the next election has the highest chance of winning cause the opposition like in most of those cases will be hardly unified as there's no one figure to present pro-EU policy in a way protesters will all stand behind while pro-russia is a direction is much more clear cut.
Yanukovich obviously disagreed with you when instead of calling an early parliamentary elections -- it was in his power to dismiss parliament -- as a vote on which policy to pursue East or West he called out troops to beat up protesters. The idea that Ukraine is a 50/50 country is loudly proclaimed by pro-Russian elements yet they are terrified to actually put it to the vote. I dont believe for a second its 50/50 but the so called pro-Russian elements have all the reason to expect a solid number of seats in a potential parliament while the opposition will split votes no matter what. Rooting out the Russian influence is just near impossible to happen. Russians in Ukraine and Ukrainians who feel closer to Russia than to the West is just a fact of life in Ukraine, just like it is in many other ex-Soviet states. But Ukraine has actually handled them fine before Russian propaganda began equating anyone who wants a potential EU ascension to Hitler. There is the Russian-majority autonomous Republic of Crimea, it has existed since 1993. There is no fascist plan to colonize or ethnically cleanse it. The same would happen in an environment of free elections for all of Ukraine as well. All of citizens rights should be respect, they get to vote, some of the policies that Ukraine might pursue might cause them short term pain but also open the richest market in the world to their products. And maybe Ukrainians arent ready for the recession that EU reforms will probably require and will vote the pro-EU candidates out -- but the point is there will actually be a vote. Not have a change in the middle of the night at the 11th hour with no consultation and then when the electorate pursues its right to peaceful protest not with police brutality. If you look at the events in Ukraine they went like this: Yanukovich abruptly abandons EU talks, some Ukrainians protest, Yanukovich responds with police brutality, more Ukrainians protest, more talks and everyone calms down, Yanukovich then passes a law that says public demonstrations are terrorism and tries to amp brutality, the army says no thanks, and we go from there to here. I'm all for elections in any situation as this is the way for people to express their views and preferences. But in a political scene as delicate as the one of Ukraine it will be years before things look up and go in one direction or the other. It takes time and patience to get results and in a nation thats so galvanized not getting them fast enough will just make things spin around the current status quo It is a lot less delicate than pro-Putin sources would led you to believe. At its heart this current protest wasnt about East vs. West or Ukrainian Fascists Genocide Campaign of Evil or whatever else zoe thinks it is. It was a protest by the middle class against the venality of the current authoritarian presidency. When Timoshenko was arrested and tried and convinced (and personally I agree with the conviction, she is a criminal) there were almost no public protests in her support or against the state because the common Ukrainian agrees she is corrupt. Mass protests erupted only after a literally last minute change of major policy. And mass violent protests erupted only after legal protests were criminalized and special forces units loyal to the president were sent to violently disperse the protests.
Under the 2004 constitution, the Easterners actually have more power because Ukraine shifts from an authoritarian powerful presidency to a parliamentary one. Any government that will be formed following free elections will have some Russian party in its coalition. And if this government fails and a more prominently Eastern coalition is formed it will have at least one or two parties from Western Ukraine in its coalition as well.
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On February 23 2014 06:45 BeaTeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 05:58 MyrMindservant wrote:On February 23 2014 04:53 BeaTeR wrote:On February 23 2014 04:27 MyrMindservant wrote:On February 23 2014 03:12 BeaTeR wrote:
A guy from Lugansk(East Ukraine) just posted there are 3 buses with people from Lviv(West Ukraine) that came in his town. They are trying to capture administration buildings and crushing everything left n right. Military students came to defend the building and found themselfs under gun fire. Did he provide any photos and videos? Because this sounds a bit too similar to the classical governmental propaganda that was and in some places still is so widespread in Ukraine. Also, if he is right and some people indeed came and started smashing everything. There is a hight chance that those people are the so-called titushki. What you described sounds rather close to what they were doing in Kiev lately. well, he said they were speaking pure ukrainian and some broken russian. Here is a video if you have vk.com account. I don't know what that guy saw, or if he saw anything at all. But linked video is nothing new, a lot of such "reports" are being shown in the eastern Ukraine to radicalize people and make them afraid of the new government. It's not hard to make such stuff by taking some part of a larger video out of context and interpreting it the way you want. And fights are frequently provoked by titushki as I've said before. Although, I don't know what really has taken place there, linked video is too short, dark and ragged/noncontinuous. Also, there was not a single word of Ukrainian language in that video, at least as fas as I was able to hear. It's pretty funny that they are trying to scare people into being radical and hostile to their own countrymen by telling them about "radical people from the other side". Oh, and as a note, you can find people who are speaking good Ukrainian is all regions of the country, even Donetsk. Not only in Lviv. On February 23 2014 05:06 Roman666 wrote:On February 23 2014 05:04 MyrMindservant wrote:
Dude, are you fine? This is a photoshop. I thought that it was obvious and didn't respond but apparently I was wrong. That thought crossed my mind, though I am not an expert on photography forgery. Looked pretty real for me, if it is really a photoshop then my bad. Check history of his posts in this thread. Also, I can just go to the building and make a photo myself, but this is not necessary. He even posted another photoshop now. On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country. This is one of those cases when I agree with you. Those guys are stupid. he said he saw it with his own eyes. i can't guarantee his words a truth, but i doubt he had any reasons to bring some pro-russian propaganda on a football forum...
Just look at the pro-russian propaganda being brought to a gaming forum ^^
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eFfgEB0.jpg)
