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This is a heated issue, but please keep the debate civil.
Personal insult is not 'discussion' and will be moderated. -Pg 36 |
Germany423 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:45 SamuelGreen wrote:
And then he threatened to sue? I guess some things outweight others. And John and Genna has done so much good and so little bad has come out about that I believe their words untill TaKe proves otherwise. You know its easy to offer things when you know you wont have to live up to them.
But he did not. The fun thing with making these chatlogs available for the public is that you can read them too. Wishing that someone gets sued (by a third party even) is not the same as threatening someone with legal action.
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On August 16 2013 17:57 GoonFFS wrote:
I really thought Genna had what it took to be a strong solid team manager.
Guess i was wrong, what a pussy move do make rather than stand up for yourself and your team...
GLHF
Yep being gifted a team by your husband is all the qualifications you need to run an e-sports team
am I rite ???
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of course she had to resign. if you post private conversation twice, no businessman will ever talk to you again.
i also think some people here mix up "being a good manager" with "the players show good results" or "i like player X".
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I really read the whole blog even though I normally don't care anymore after 4-5 lines. This shows how much that means to a random guy of the Sc2 community. I am really sad about it. This reflects the recent change in the community which isn't a good one :/
I wish you good luck in whatever you will do in the future!
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From now i will not wacht Take.tv again, not even for HSC. Of course they do great stuff, but Take being this bitchy is just too much. Srsly F*** you Dennis.
EDIT: OOOPS.
See thats how much rage posting is worth :D
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Raise your pitchforks....
I just imagine what happened if Axiom just said they couldnt attend ATC because they got no money... Most likely there wouldnt have been any drama, maybe a fundraiser would have been a solution. I don't really think it was the best way to show the whole conversations just to make Axiom look good. Ofc there were mistakes by TaKeTV as well, but reveiling all the background conversations is just not the right way imho.
Sry for my bad english and have a nice day 
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On August 16 2013 17:59 steff wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 17:57 GoonFFS wrote:
I really thought Genna had what it took to be a strong solid team manager.
Guess i was wrong, what a pussy move do make rather than stand up for yourself and your team...
GLHF Yep being gifted a team by your husband is all the qualifications you need to run an e-sports team am I rite ???
Because that's what happened.
Well done, lol
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On August 16 2013 18:04 plgElwood wrote:
From now i will not wacht Take.tv again, not even for HSC. Of course they do great stuff, but Take being this bitchy is just too much. Srsly F*** you Dennis.
You clearly didn't read anything at all.
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This is terrible news. I always liked Genna's way of doing things. Especially after i've watched Climbing the Ladder i had nothing but respect for her, with how she wanted to improve teams in and player conditions. Is there any other team/manager that even thought about what their players will do after they're done playing? I'm kind of shocked that Dennis lashes out in the way he did. It's one thing to be angry or unhappy that private logs get posted, but legal action is just way off - especially as a spokesman of a business. It's not just some internet playground where you toss that stuff around lightly. Genna's Blog post provided some precious insight that we usually don't get (for obvious reasons as it seems today). And i'm sad to see her go.
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I will just say three things on this issue.
It is bad business practice to publicly reveal private conversations on the internet. It is a clear breach of trust, even without a NDA. Phone calls and skype conversations and emails are all private. Twitter, internet forums, interviews and youtube are all public. There is a difference. When you communicate with someone over the phone/email or skype there is a clear understanding and expectation that this is a private communique and not for publication. This is not something that needs to be explicitly stated within every phone-call/email/skype chat. The convention of expectation of privacy is understood and established. If Gemma wanted to publicise the skype conversations, she should have asked Take for prior permission, even if her intent was not to harm Take. Maybe just a miscommunication or oversight, but publicly revealing Skype transcripts without permission is a clear breach of business ethics and is a deliberate act rather than accidental. The whole recent NSA monitoring scandal is precisely because people have expectations of privacy for their emails and confidential conversations that take part online. It is understandable that people could get angry when someone breaches their trust in this way. I think posting the skype transcripts here on TL was a bad call.
I am very sad and disappointed that it appears TB and Axiom have now seemingly become estranged with Take and his organisation. I think that both Take and TB have both given a lot to the SC2 community and the community has been enriched by both their efforts. I have personally enjoyed Tournaments organised by both TB and Take and consequently have a lot of respect and admiration for both individuals. They wll always have my gratitude for their efforts to grow the SC2 scene and the entertainment they have provided me. It is my hope that when the dust has settled, TB and Take can have a reconciliation and resolve their differences. Mistakes have been made, words have been said, but I hope that no bridges have been burnt permanently. Time is a healer. It is my hope that TB and Take can get over this issue sometime down the road. Having a schism is of no benefit to the scene and working together in the future can be of mutual benefit to TB and Take from a business perspective.
I am sorry to hear that Genna has decided to step down from running Axiom. It is a shame but obviously it is her decision to make. She is the only one who walks in her shoes and knows her situation. I respect that. I would like to say thanks to Genna for her contributions and efforts for the SC2 scene in general and running Axiom specifically. Good luck to her in the future. Hopefully she will remain an insightful contributor here at TL. Thanks for your efforts, Genna. I appreciate them. Whatever her future path, I wish her success and joy. ** Applauds**
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I honestly don't see the point in owning/running a team. If people like him break promises causing you to spend much more in return, fans going batshit crazy about stuff, you having to explain things to them and then receiving threats like that.. why bother? Regardless of what you do, it's a lose-lose situation.
I don't even think it's just this tournament doing shit like that. We just don't hear about it.
While sad for the players, I'd have pulled out long ago. Pun not intended.
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On August 16 2013 17:37 Khai wrote:
This is ridiculous, as a fan of e-Sports I am completely and utterly disappointed in which the manner TaKe has dealt with this. Completely lost my respect for TaKe and will be avoiding his events from hereon in. Some transparency is good in a startup industry and in an e-Sport, fans should know if there are issues like this, threatening to sue for someone revealing truths to fans is just low. Axiom qualified 2nd in the group stage, was not given funds to travel and you expect them to keep it a secret without explaining to fans? I hope TaKe will take a good hard look on his own conduct, defending sponsors is no reason to act like a douche.
Fans dont need to know shit, all fans need to know is where and who of their favorite players are playing what and when, everything else is none of their business. And your post shows exactly why.
Axiom wasn't given full travel funds cause it was never announced that there would be travel funds, Axiom just assumed it would be so. Well, lesson number one, when you run a business, never assume anything. If you dont get information, then you better make sure you get it yourself.
And Take is not going to sue anyone and it was not a treat. Why do people take everything so damn literally, how hard it is to put something in perspective? Axiom is trying to safe face and failed pretty hard. Genna stops (from what i understand bigger issues then a upset Take) and now we have a loose dog on TL with the name TotalBiscuit.
So yeah, everyone is a winner by throwing private conversations around and doesn't help anyone.
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Germany423 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:08 zdfgucker wrote:
I honestly don't see the point in owning/running a team. If people like him break promises causing you to spend much more in return, fans going batshit crazy about stuff, you having to explain things to them and then receiving threats like that.. why bother? Regardless of what you do, it's a lose-lose situation.
I don't even think it's just this tournament doing shit like that. We just don't hear about it.
While sad for the players, I'd have pulled out long ago. Pun not intended.
It was never promised full travel costs were provided. (Which is right IMHO, if you own more or less a korean based team you should expect to pay more for travel expenses to a european or NA event than if you live there...)
You can read this a) in the mails and b) in this thread. It was said that 1500$ would be paid, right in the announcement thread for this tournament.
Some teams apparently did participate without having the ability to pay for the costs and he either helped them with more money out of his own (Liquid) or offered it (Axiom). So where are the other team owners bitching about this? With all the recent stuff and constant bitching from TB I would not be surprised if this is another welcome opportunity to stir some drama.
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Take is such a nice guy, he just felt betrayed maybe.
Why does everything in eSports always end up with silly apologies followed by someone capable being fired or leaving the scene?
Posting logs of someone you like and trust is not good imo but that doesn't mean he was suing.. besides a german lawsuit against a american in american soil.. we know how that would work out..
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silly, sad and so unnecessary
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well i guess her retirement has its reasons. perhaps she has more things to do as she claims that she is An eSports fan, event makeup artist, talent manager, event organizer/producer, and TB's manager, so i guess she has tons of work to do. i wish all the best to genna and TB and hope that he can bring the team to even bigger accomplishments.
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On August 16 2013 18:17 shell wrote:
silly, sad and so unnecessary
You forgot unprofessional. This whole matter ins handled so unprofessionally by Genna and TB it is beyond imagination.
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On August 16 2013 13:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 13:15 geokilla wrote:On August 16 2013 13:11 TotalBiscuit wrote:On August 16 2013 13:10 Bagi wrote:
Feels like overreaction. The childish "fuck Take"-stuff isn't helping anyone either. Yeah man we should totally just hug it out after he threatened my wife and the team with legal action. Is this the first time you got threatened with legal action? My mom deals with that daily at her work with clients. Grow up. I got threatened with legal action and racism a couple days ago. You know what I did? I played it cool, stayed calm, and finished my transaction with the buyer. News just in, eSports is not the same as working at a supermarket.
Ugh this comment combined with the "if I don't have to read the bullshit from YOU PEOPLE" comment make it hard to respect you at all. Such a douchey way to communicate with people. You're not always right man, just because you're shooting people straight and speaking your mind, it doesn't make it right to talk to people like that.
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Here are all the comments from TB so far, which should clarify some for people that dont seem to know a lot about the situation. I really think its worth reading before you throw shit at him:
On August 16 2013 12:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 12:53 sumsaR wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why you're retiring. Because of something stupid someone said in a private chat about something stupid? I guess it should have been spelled out in the post. What just happened is just a tiny taste of the sheer amount of bullshit, backroom nonsense, immaturity and general awfulness that happens in this scene on a daily basis. This is the straw that broke the camels back after a years worth of stress that would have crushed a lesser person far sooner. Sorry, people aren't robots, emotions exist, stress is a real thing and there comes a point where its' better to step back for your own health. The audacity that anyone is questioning her decision to leave and pretending to know what's going on in her head, the sheer audacity.
On August 16 2013 13:00 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 12:58 Joedaddy wrote:
Pretty shitty move when you make what one presumed to be a private conversation public. Even if you didn't think it was a big deal, Dennis obviously did. Fuck Dennis. If he wasn't so concerned about saving face rather than being honest with everybody about his mismanaged tournament then some of this might not have happened. When you say "I hope there are legal consequences for what you've done" all bets are off, I lose any respect I've had for you. I hope Take enjoyed the free casting and the numbers, I'll never deal with him and his organisation ever again.
On August 16 2013 13:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 13:06 Finrod1 wrote:
Oh that is so mature TB. I really agree witht you on most topics but you can't see that everyone made a mistake in this situation? You just trying to shitstorm him now... "classy".
To post privat discussion openly in a forum is a big no-no even if you don't want to see it his way. The lawbullshit by take it obviously just angryman talking and not smart either.
So everyone looses. Other things that are unprofessional. Threatening legal action on another team. Bullshiting the community and trying to save face. You know why this scene is such a mess? Because it's riddled with incompetence and dishonesty. Gennas first duty was to the team, that means damage control, that means showing our side of the story and that means minimizing how slammed we got because the statement that was put out threw Axiom under the boss while saving face for ATC, regardless of poor communication and mismanagement that event suffered. I have always believed shit gets done by being honest and forthright with people and I believe that massively overrides any expectation of "privacy" you might have. Your definition of maturity is irrelevant, it gets nothing done.
On August 16 2013 13:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 13:19 Thrax wrote:On August 16 2013 13:00 TotalBiscuit wrote:On August 16 2013 12:58 Joedaddy wrote:
Pretty shitty move when you make what one presumed to be a private conversation public. Even if you didn't think it was a big deal, Dennis obviously did. Fuck Dennis. If he wasn't so concerned about saving face rather than being honest with everybody about his mismanaged tournament then some of this might not have happened. When you say "I hope there are legal consequences for what you've done" all bets are off, I lose any respect I've had for you. I hope Take enjoyed the free casting and the numbers, I'll never deal with him and his organisation ever again. I have to agree with that sentiment. Maybe that first blog post was not entirely thought through (directly quoting private conversations instead of paraphrasing or summarizing). It's a small mistake, Genna could have reached out to Acer directly if she felt the need to apologize after Take points out that some feathers are ruffled. I'm sure Axiom has a pretty decent relationship with Acer. Take is taking it over the top with the legal threats, I'm rather disgusted. Regardless, it sounds like if it wasn't this bullshit, the next one would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. All the best to Genna. Genna had already talked about all of this with Acer, we maintain a good relationship with them and they were not in fact pissed off that we posted that stuff at all. Acer would have no doubt done exactly the same thing if they had come under fire. The first duty of a team manager is to protect their team, not protect 3rd parties. We learned that when we tried to do what was right for Demuslim and Sasquatch in WCS after MLGs admin fucked up and were crucified for that as well.
On August 16 2013 13:52 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 13:51 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On August 16 2013 13:44 ptbl wrote:On August 16 2013 13:36 dcemuser wrote:On August 16 2013 13:35 ptbl wrote:
Take has the right to be angry. He is the "injured" party. It wasn't take who revealed the private conversations without the other parties consent nor notification. Irrelevant. She stepped on toes (while painting him as a good person), he stepped over the line. uhh, Genna exposed the fact that Liquid needed monetary support to send players to the ATC final. Take told Genna the information in confidence, but she revealed it without proper notification nor consent. So, what do you mean it made Take look good. Airing dirty laundry is never good. Take volunteered to pay thousands of dollars to help Axiom come to ATC. No he didn't.
On August 16 2013 13:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 13:55 teddyoojo wrote:On August 16 2013 13:52 TotalBiscuit wrote:On August 16 2013 13:51 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On August 16 2013 13:44 ptbl wrote:On August 16 2013 13:36 dcemuser wrote:On August 16 2013 13:35 ptbl wrote:
Take has the right to be angry. He is the "injured" party. It wasn't take who revealed the private conversations without the other parties consent nor notification. Irrelevant. She stepped on toes (while painting him as a good person), he stepped over the line. uhh, Genna exposed the fact that Liquid needed monetary support to send players to the ATC final. Take told Genna the information in confidence, but she revealed it without proper notification nor consent. So, what do you mean it made Take look good. Airing dirty laundry is never good. Take volunteered to pay thousands of dollars to help Axiom come to ATC. No he didn't. as they are public might aswell Dennis : okay i see but lets be honest thier chances doing pretty okay at the finale are there if we cant find a deal at all it would be the worst solution right? the point is i dont have big budgets that i can pay from my own pocket 3-4-5 flights
Genna : Worst case scenario, we forfeit and Millenium takes our slot.
Dennis : but before a team is not coming i really wanna help and even willing to pay some of my money into it thats why i ask i just try to find options
Genna : I'll have to talk to John about it to see if we have anything leftover from our sponsor pool for the month.
Dennis : okay and i will talk to acer about it if they would cover another 1500+ i think i am willing to help to on top
"If Acer will pay an additional fee I will try and help" is not the same thing.
On August 16 2013 14:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 14:22 steff wrote:On August 16 2013 14:19 Aylear wrote:TB's thoughts on Genna's retirement went mostly unnoticed in this thread, but it really is superb and everyone should listen to it. Sanctimony in stereo guys, worth a listen just for that. The one positive is he promises to take a step back from TL/reddit and twitter now so at least he might stop putting his foot in his mouth all the time. If I don't have to read retarded shit from you guys then it'll probably be the best thing that's ever happened to me. Oh and it's in mono.
On August 16 2013 14:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 14:53 Terran1234 wrote:
So Axiom/Genna and TaKe sides both have miscommunication that leads to Axiom not participating. Nothing major here, happens all the time in business. Next step is Axiom throwing TaKe infront of the bus, posting private business messages on a internet forum portraying them as the "innocent" side while their only motivation to do so is polish their image. Maybe their reasons was that "we are not participating anymore so might aswell portray us in better light". Maybe she was naieve.
They dont even consider that TaKe was oblivious to their mistake, and probably had buffered Acer that "really famous TB and his succesfull team is participating and it will give us a lot of publicity" to increase Acer contribution to the tournament. Then out of the blue he gets informed they wont participate, then post their private messages and portray him in bad light. Now he lost a major team in the tournament, got screwed over by selfish motives and got trouble with his main sponsor.
Maybe if TotalBiscuit looked from TaKes eyes he would be less mad about words said in anger. The only people that could possibly believe Take was thrown under the bus by Gennas post with the chatlogs are people that didn't bother to read it. There's nothing in that post that makes Acer or Take look bad, in fact quite the opposite. The original statement was causing confusion and people were lashing out, the second post was meant to clarify the situation and share the facts to show how it could have possibly got to that point. Acer looked GOOD in that post, so did Take. Sure, mistakes were made on the communication front but that post showed that all parties had worked really hard to try and solve the situation. Axiom was getting crucified over it for no apparent reason and Gennas duty as manager was to do what she could to alleviate that. She did exactly what any other team owner would have done in that situation, tried to clear the air. As we have seen though, the reason why we're dishonest with the community is because apparently they can't handle the truth and it causes more problems than it solves. You guys crave openness and detailed statements but lose your shit when you get them? You demand detailed explanations from people like MLG when they make statements like "Hey, we're not doing SC2 at Columbus"? This is why you don't get them, because if you found out everything you'd lose your shit.
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When i read Intricacy first blog about ATC i was wondering if Dennis would be ok with that. There were some serious damaging stuff in it.
For example: ( i already promised liquid quiet some time ago that i will pay some extracost which actually was planed to get paid by acer but they refused this)
This makes Acer look very bad. I really hope this incident won't have any effect of further sponsering of acer...
I don't know what happened there but that is not something that you should make public before talking to dennis. You should NEVER make PRIVATE conversations public without the permission of the people involved.
Everyone in the community should be thankful to what you Intricacy have done for the community and the players. I am sad that you leave but i am also very disappointed how you leave on the same time.
We all know dennis is very passionate and emotional. I am sure that he didn't mean the part with the legal actions. That was not very professional and not very nice towards you. It's a mistake of him but it is at least understanable since he thinks you broke his trust.
What you did with this post on the other hand that's probably more serious than you think. You damage the reputation of one of the hardest working people in e-sports. You indirectly blaming him for your retirement and i am sure that this incident wasn't the main reason. You damaging dennis sponser which will influnce acer's future sponserships for his company. And last but not least you are not admitting your mistake of publishing PRIVATE conversations without consent and do it again...
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EPT
