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On July 08 2013 12:03 Ms.Spyte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:26 kaluro wrote:On July 08 2013 05:30 Blitz wrote:
I think its a bit presumptuous to say that being a female gets you viewers. The novelty of it wears off for most people quite quickly. If you just offer looks, unless you're ultra nerd tier / loner, it'll get old staring at a girl playing a game at a mediocre / awful level. I think it helps to bring people in at first sure, but you still have to be moderately entertaining and decent to retain an audience. Plenty of female streamers that get 100-300 viewers, but it takes skill and at least some talent to get past that threshold of just being a female streamer. Sucks to undermine achievements based on being a girl gamer TT Lets look at it differently. I'll take myself for example: I am a mid masters zerg player that has a really aggressive playstyle and doesn't play by the book at all. I run a 720p 60fps stream with HQ sound, custom UI, HD cam and everything. I get what, 40 viewers on a good day. My guess is that if I were to be a cute girl, I would be hitting >100 viewers, at the very least. What lead me to this guess is that most of the female streams that are out there which I have watched, have less to offer than a lot of male counterpart streams, yet the females get 10 times the viewers, if not more. Their skill level would be worse, the stream quality would be worse and the commentary insight would be inferior. I have no problem with female streamer, hell I encourage them even! and I mean no disrespect to them either. But at the lower tier streams (as in viewers, since superb quality streams can still only have small viewer amounts), being a female gives you such a significant boost in viewercount, that you can't possibly say it has no correlation. It doesn't look like you stream often, 12 times total, about 2 streams a month. I averaged much less than 100 viewers for my first few months, streaming 3-5 times a week. It took me two years to get to where I am now, I started in November 2011. Quality is good to have, but I'd argue that the most important thing in developing a fanbase is streaming consistently and interacting with chat, which I understand is difficult because I'm a full time student and chat is not always kind. Females don't get 10x as many viewers as males, that's kind of silly to say, very few break 1k, and a lot sit at <100. Streaming can be stressful, but those that succeed work hard at either improving as a player or improving as a streamer.
Well if this post doesn't kill any discussion about "gamer girls" getting views because they are girls, I don't know what will. Two years is a long time and apparently Ms. Spyte is pretty good at SC2 as well. If someone has been streaming SC2 for 2 years and has a large fan base, I don't see any reason not to have them on the other notable streams.
Hell, Painuser is on there right now and we know when he got his highest viewer count. All it took was an 8 hour nap.
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I really wanted to voice my opinion on here to the extent that I just registered my first account even though I have been an active TL.net viewer for 3+ years. I'm not here to bash anyone's opinions and I think the overall policy is a good thing, but I would like to comment on Protech.
I feel like this guy should be an exception to these rules because he brings so much more to SC2 E-Sports than just a random 200-300 viewer streamer. This guy on a daily basis shows people that Starcraft has way more depth than just 1v1 competitive play. 2v2 obviously isn't for everyone but I do believe it is very entertaining for a wide variety of people. It is nice to see something different from time to time and 2v2 and 3v3 can provide that. I also think that if more Tournaments held 2v2 games the audience will in fact grow. One of the biggest problems with the current game is that I think it can get a little dull. Strategies become popular and you get into this little grind where a 6 month span can be the same strategies and the game seems to just come down to that 1 engagement. Then someone comes up with a good strategy and every is on that band wagon for another 6 months. 2v2 and 3v3 can keep things fresh, keep things different, and keep SC2 E-Sports growing with more depth.
This post isn't just about Protech either its about expanding SC2 E-Sports as a whole. I would love to see other streamers do this as well. The only other team I can think of that does this is ROOT and I LOVE IT. If people would just take more time and advertise team games more the popularity will grow, I know it. Sorry if this is long and dumb but its literally my first post ever on TL, in the years I have been here, and probably the last. Enjoy!
**EDIT**
Just to be clear my intentions of this post is to grow SC2 in E-Sports. Just as the featured list is to grow the player community of SC2. I just feel this game is a lot more than 1v1 and people should look into ways of bringing it out and getting more involved. Protech consistently brings that to the table just like ROOT does, on occasion, as I mentioned.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 08 2013 12:03 Ms.Spyte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:26 kaluro wrote:On July 08 2013 05:30 Blitz wrote:
I think its a bit presumptuous to say that being a female gets you viewers. The novelty of it wears off for most people quite quickly. If you just offer looks, unless you're ultra nerd tier / loner, it'll get old staring at a girl playing a game at a mediocre / awful level. I think it helps to bring people in at first sure, but you still have to be moderately entertaining and decent to retain an audience. Plenty of female streamers that get 100-300 viewers, but it takes skill and at least some talent to get past that threshold of just being a female streamer. Sucks to undermine achievements based on being a girl gamer TT Lets look at it differently. I'll take myself for example: I am a mid masters zerg player that has a really aggressive playstyle and doesn't play by the book at all. I run a 720p 60fps stream with HQ sound, custom UI, HD cam and everything. I get what, 40 viewers on a good day. My guess is that if I were to be a cute girl, I would be hitting >100 viewers, at the very least. What lead me to this guess is that most of the female streams that are out there which I have watched, have less to offer than a lot of male counterpart streams, yet the females get 10 times the viewers, if not more. Their skill level would be worse, the stream quality would be worse and the commentary insight would be inferior. I have no problem with female streamer, hell I encourage them even! and I mean no disrespect to them either. But at the lower tier streams (as in viewers, since superb quality streams can still only have small viewer amounts), being a female gives you such a significant boost in viewercount, that you can't possibly say it has no correlation. It doesn't look like you stream often, 12 times total, about 2 streams a month. I averaged much less than 100 viewers for my first few months, streaming 3-5 times a week. It took me two years to get to where I am now, I started in November 2011. Quality is good to have, but I'd argue that the most important thing in developing a fanbase is streaming consistently and interacting with chat, which I understand is difficult because I'm a full time student and chat is not always kind. Females don't get 10x as many viewers as males, that's kind of silly to say, very few break 1k, and a lot sit at <100. Streaming can be stressful, but those that succeed work hard at either improving as a player or improving as a streamer.
Excellent post.
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I really don't get the Protech hate. He is the only 2v2 stream that I have seen, he streams pretty consistently and is pretty good at the game. Why not leave him featured to provide a casual/interesting alternative?
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On July 08 2013 12:03 Ms.Spyte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 09:26 kaluro wrote:On July 08 2013 05:30 Blitz wrote:
I think its a bit presumptuous to say that being a female gets you viewers. The novelty of it wears off for most people quite quickly. If you just offer looks, unless you're ultra nerd tier / loner, it'll get old staring at a girl playing a game at a mediocre / awful level. I think it helps to bring people in at first sure, but you still have to be moderately entertaining and decent to retain an audience. Plenty of female streamers that get 100-300 viewers, but it takes skill and at least some talent to get past that threshold of just being a female streamer. Sucks to undermine achievements based on being a girl gamer TT Lets look at it differently. I'll take myself for example: I am a mid masters zerg player that has a really aggressive playstyle and doesn't play by the book at all. I run a 720p 60fps stream with HQ sound, custom UI, HD cam and everything. I get what, 40 viewers on a good day. My guess is that if I were to be a cute girl, I would be hitting >100 viewers, at the very least. What lead me to this guess is that most of the female streams that are out there which I have watched, have less to offer than a lot of male counterpart streams, yet the females get 10 times the viewers, if not more. Their skill level would be worse, the stream quality would be worse and the commentary insight would be inferior. I have no problem with female streamer, hell I encourage them even! and I mean no disrespect to them either. But at the lower tier streams (as in viewers, since superb quality streams can still only have small viewer amounts), being a female gives you such a significant boost in viewercount, that you can't possibly say it has no correlation. It doesn't look like you stream often, 12 times total, about 2 streams a month. I averaged much less than 100 viewers for my first few months, streaming 3-5 times a week. It took me two years to get to where I am now, I started in November 2011. Quality is good to have, but I'd argue that the most important thing in developing a fanbase is streaming consistently and interacting with chat, which I understand is difficult because I'm a full time student and chat is not always kind. Females don't get 10x as many viewers as males, that's kind of silly to say, very few break 1k, and a lot sit at <100. Streaming can be stressful, but those that succeed work hard at either improving as a player or improving as a streamer.
I stream 3 times a week almost every week, for at least a couple of hours 
For some reason my VODs dont get put up on the twitch servers most of the time, even though I am allowing people to view my past broadcasts  So yeah only 2 VOds from july, 2 from february and 2 from january are up, awkwardly.
Here is a more accurate view of how often I stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371903¤tpage=5
Everytime I stream, I put down a bump message there, mostly 3 times a week - except for june where I was reallly busy.
I started streaming in December 2011, for the first time. That was on 720p 30fps while I was still diamond.
I have been masters for the past 5 seasons and have been upping my stream quality by purchasing a capture card and going 720p 60fps.
I did a lot of quality tweaking and took notice of a lot of feedback I got from viewers and other streamers, so I put effort in too =P. even using a dual screen set-up now so I can read the chat on the fly and interact.
Also, I'm not complaining I have little viewers or using the fact I'm not female as an excuse, I'm just going to keep working on my stream and see where it goes ;-)!
I merely wanted to throw my experience in that a lot of low tier female streams seem to have a bit higher viewers than male counterparts.
Okay maybe not 10x as much, but double - perhaps? This is for low tier streamers only, I often check out the bottom streams.
Also, thanks for taking the time to reply!
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I love the guy and all, but reading this, I wonder : why is Sarens still featured?
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On July 08 2013 21:52 FakePseudo wrote:
I love the guy and all, but reading this, I wonder : why is Sarens still featured?
On July 08 2013 05:20 JBright wrote:
For anyone wondering why some current streamers are still featured, just remember this is an announcement and the evaluation process doesn't happen until the the period around the end of the WCS qualifiers. It will give streamers time to improve if they want to remain featured.
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On July 08 2013 19:44 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 12:03 Ms.Spyte wrote:On July 08 2013 09:26 kaluro wrote:On July 08 2013 05:30 Blitz wrote:
I think its a bit presumptuous to say that being a female gets you viewers. The novelty of it wears off for most people quite quickly. If you just offer looks, unless you're ultra nerd tier / loner, it'll get old staring at a girl playing a game at a mediocre / awful level. I think it helps to bring people in at first sure, but you still have to be moderately entertaining and decent to retain an audience. Plenty of female streamers that get 100-300 viewers, but it takes skill and at least some talent to get past that threshold of just being a female streamer. Sucks to undermine achievements based on being a girl gamer TT Lets look at it differently. I'll take myself for example: I am a mid masters zerg player that has a really aggressive playstyle and doesn't play by the book at all. I run a 720p 60fps stream with HQ sound, custom UI, HD cam and everything. I get what, 40 viewers on a good day. My guess is that if I were to be a cute girl, I would be hitting >100 viewers, at the very least. What lead me to this guess is that most of the female streams that are out there which I have watched, have less to offer than a lot of male counterpart streams, yet the females get 10 times the viewers, if not more. Their skill level would be worse, the stream quality would be worse and the commentary insight would be inferior. I have no problem with female streamer, hell I encourage them even! and I mean no disrespect to them either. But at the lower tier streams (as in viewers, since superb quality streams can still only have small viewer amounts), being a female gives you such a significant boost in viewercount, that you can't possibly say it has no correlation. It doesn't look like you stream often, 12 times total, about 2 streams a month. I averaged much less than 100 viewers for my first few months, streaming 3-5 times a week. It took me two years to get to where I am now, I started in November 2011. Quality is good to have, but I'd argue that the most important thing in developing a fanbase is streaming consistently and interacting with chat, which I understand is difficult because I'm a full time student and chat is not always kind. Females don't get 10x as many viewers as males, that's kind of silly to say, very few break 1k, and a lot sit at <100. Streaming can be stressful, but those that succeed work hard at either improving as a player or improving as a streamer. I stream 3 times a week almost every week, for at least a couple of hours For some reason my VODs dont get put up on the twitch servers most of the time, even though I am allowing people to view my past broadcasts So yeah only 2 VOds from july, 2 from february and 2 from january are up, awkwardly. Here is a more accurate view of how often I stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371903¤tpage=5Everytime I stream, I put down a bump message there, mostly 3 times a week - except for june where I was reallly busy. I started streaming in December 2011, for the first time. That was on 720p 30fps while I was still diamond. I have been masters for the past 5 seasons and have been upping my stream quality by purchasing a capture card and going 720p 60fps. I did a lot of quality tweaking and took notice of a lot of feedback I got from viewers and other streamers, so I put effort in too =P. even using a dual screen set-up now so I can read the chat on the fly and interact. Also, I'm not complaining I have little viewers or using the fact I'm not female as an excuse, I'm just going to keep working on my stream and see where it goes ;-)! I merely wanted to throw my experience in that a lot of low tier female streams seem to have a bit higher viewers than male counterparts. Okay maybe not 10x as much, but double - perhaps? This is for low tier streamers only, I often check out the bottom streams. Also, thanks for taking the time to reply!
Ohhhhh nice set up! Haha, I remember tilting my phone against my screen to display chat when I didn't have a second monitor, worthy investment. I was looking over your Q&A and you seem open to advice about improving viewer-count. Your strategies are intriguing and fun to watch, a rare quality for a non-progamer stream. Unfortunately, you didn't speak a word in any of the videos I looked over. People would really enjoy hearing more about your strategies and getting to know you personally. If its really difficult during the game, take a brief pause between games and explain what guided your decision making, or how the opponent could improve. Honestly, the only streams that I would consider watching without any interaction are some pro-gramer streams, but anything lower you can't get away with it. If you only type in chat, then new comers feel left out because they will be looking to you to 'initiate' the interaction. There's a lot of male and female streamers that do this and they tend to build an audience more quickly, even if the stream and gameplay are lower quality. Best of luck!
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I can’t deny being female plays a big role but it’s hardly the main defining feature of Spyte. Nerdiness, video quality, webcam, broadcast frequency, stream numbers, video game music including the name of the track, keyboard mapper, level of play, chat interaction, work with ChanmanV, Keiko, attendance of several MLGs… what more will it take for people to give her the credit she deserves? And the guy judging her without even having seen her stream, that’s gold.
PS: This isn’t aimed at TL staff, I can understand if she hasn’t been featured yet precisely because people are very vocal about her getting featured which can be off-putting.
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On July 08 2013 12:37 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 12:03 Ms.Spyte wrote:On July 08 2013 09:26 kaluro wrote:On July 08 2013 05:30 Blitz wrote:
I think its a bit presumptuous to say that being a female gets you viewers. The novelty of it wears off for most people quite quickly. If you just offer looks, unless you're ultra nerd tier / loner, it'll get old staring at a girl playing a game at a mediocre / awful level. I think it helps to bring people in at first sure, but you still have to be moderately entertaining and decent to retain an audience. Plenty of female streamers that get 100-300 viewers, but it takes skill and at least some talent to get past that threshold of just being a female streamer. Sucks to undermine achievements based on being a girl gamer TT Lets look at it differently. I'll take myself for example: I am a mid masters zerg player that has a really aggressive playstyle and doesn't play by the book at all. I run a 720p 60fps stream with HQ sound, custom UI, HD cam and everything. I get what, 40 viewers on a good day. My guess is that if I were to be a cute girl, I would be hitting >100 viewers, at the very least. What lead me to this guess is that most of the female streams that are out there which I have watched, have less to offer than a lot of male counterpart streams, yet the females get 10 times the viewers, if not more. Their skill level would be worse, the stream quality would be worse and the commentary insight would be inferior. I have no problem with female streamer, hell I encourage them even! and I mean no disrespect to them either. But at the lower tier streams (as in viewers, since superb quality streams can still only have small viewer amounts), being a female gives you such a significant boost in viewercount, that you can't possibly say it has no correlation. It doesn't look like you stream often, 12 times total, about 2 streams a month. I averaged much less than 100 viewers for my first few months, streaming 3-5 times a week. It took me two years to get to where I am now, I started in November 2011. Quality is good to have, but I'd argue that the most important thing in developing a fanbase is streaming consistently and interacting with chat, which I understand is difficult because I'm a full time student and chat is not always kind. Females don't get 10x as many viewers as males, that's kind of silly to say, very few break 1k, and a lot sit at <100. Streaming can be stressful, but those that succeed work hard at either improving as a player or improving as a streamer. Pretty much this. Being a girl is no more advantage than having any other unique aspect to your stream (i.e. grandmasters, black, mech only, aggressive play, free coaching, even being a sponsored / pro player). It's a way to get your foot in the door, a tagline if you will, but just like anything else it's only through consistency and putting in effort to improve your stream that you're going to get higher stream views. I followed MsSpyte ~ a year ago for awhile and really enjoyed her stream, but she averaged <100 viewers. Many (if not most) pro players get less than her now because they don't stream consistently and dont interact with their audience, and I would say being a pro player is a much bigger 'advantage' to getting people to check out your stream than being a girl.
I completely agree. We all should embrace the fact that there are female streamers. Of course they will attract more viewers than a male streamer of the same skill level, as the target audience almost completely consists of males. But being female surely isn't enough to be a successful streamer.
For example, I really enjoy watching MaddeLisk's stream, because she's always explaining her decisions and interacting a lot with chat (even during games). Her being a woman was the reason why I first clicked on her stream, but if she had been another silent ladder robot, I definitely would not have added her stream to my favourites.
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On July 09 2013 06:23 Zax19 wrote:
I can’t deny being female plays a big role but it’s hardly the main defining feature of Spyte. Nerdiness, video quality, webcam, broadcast frequency, stream numbers, video game music including the name of the track, keyboard mapper, level of play, chat interaction, work with ChanmanV, Keiko, attendance of several MLGs… what more will it take for people to give her the credit she deserves? And the guy judging her without even having seen her stream, that’s gold.
PS: This isn’t aimed at TL staff, I can understand if she hasn’t been featured yet precisely because people are very vocal about her getting featured which can be off-putting.
She isn`t featured yet because this whole process isn`t reviewed until the end of qualifiers for WCS. Also I agree, she has a very good stream and regular schedule which makes it easier to follow.
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Can somebody explain to me why QuantifcFlo is actually featured?
I think she doesn't meet any of the mentioned criteria. No WCS participation, no tournament results and her stream numbers are also quite low.
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On July 09 2013 07:37 Sandwichtoast wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why QuantifcFlo is actually featured?
I think she doesn't meet any of the mentioned criteria. No WCS participation, no tournament results and her stream numbers are also quite low.
As the post above your own says, these changes will not happen until the end of the WCS qualifiers.
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On July 08 2013 13:01 Grimfish wrote:
I really wanted to voice my opinion on here to the extent that I just registered my first account even though I have been an active TL.net viewer for 3+ years. I'm not here to bash anyone's opinions and I think the overall policy is a good thing, but I would like to comment on Protech.
I feel like this guy should be an exception to these rules because he brings so much more to SC2 E-Sports than just a random 200-300 viewer streamer. This guy on a daily basis shows people that Starcraft has way more depth than just 1v1 competitive play. 2v2 obviously isn't for everyone but I do believe it is very entertaining for a wide variety of people. It is nice to see something different from time to time and 2v2 and 3v3 can provide that. I also think that if more Tournaments held 2v2 games the audience will in fact grow. One of the biggest problems with the current game is that I think it can get a little dull. Strategies become popular and you get into this little grind where a 6 month span can be the same strategies and the game seems to just come down to that 1 engagement. Then someone comes up with a good strategy and every is on that band wagon for another 6 months. 2v2 and 3v3 can keep things fresh, keep things different, and keep SC2 E-Sports growing with more depth.
This post isn't just about Protech either its about expanding SC2 E-Sports as a whole. I would love to see other streamers do this as well. The only other team I can think of that does this is ROOT and I LOVE IT. If people would just take more time and advertise team games more the popularity will grow, I know it. Sorry if this is long and dumb but its literally my first post ever on TL, in the years I have been here, and probably the last. Enjoy!
**EDIT**
Just to be clear my intentions of this post is to grow SC2 in E-Sports. Just as the featured list is to grow the player community of SC2. I just feel this game is a lot more than 1v1 and people should look into ways of bringing it out and getting more involved. Protech consistently brings that to the table just like ROOT does, on occasion, as I mentioned.
Hi, yes, we understand about expanding eSports - but that's not what people are saying in this thread. They're saying that solely because a person has viewers does not equate them to being a valuable asset to competitive RTS game play which TL wishes to advance, at least to some degree. The problem with players such as Protech is that he misleads, willingly I might add, many of his stream viewers about his skill level. A testament to his actual 1v1 rating is 50% w/r season 6 at ~800 masters as zerg. If you ever bother to catch him streaming his 1v1 games they're... well... His strategy, skill, and overall game play lack anything close to resembling a GM player; yet, he brands himself as such because he plays 2v2 and gets viewers. Now, I don't want to come down on the guy too hard but if any actual GM player were to play 2v2 and dedicate time to it they'd more than likely entertain you with much more compelling games than Protech, knock his RT rank way down, and completely change how you view 2v2 altogether.
That is the argument people are making: If you do want to encourage these people to play, or deepen the levels of which SC2 can grow, then there needs to be some demand for their skill set. Until then, no one good will competitively care about 2v2 other than like ninja and azide and mystic and power simply because they dominate 2v2 tournaments. Just because you want the game to not be completely 1v1 based does not mean it will change. It might be a sad day to realize but the game and competitive scene do not revolve around what 200-300 fans of Protech, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 want. The same is true for anything else that has viewers because of one exclusive reason or cater to a smaller audience.
I personally think that unless someone brings something 'significant' to the scene, or meets the skill requirement set by this thread that they should not be featured. If they can reasonably prove that their viewers are a testament to their advancement of Esports, or something actually of value, and not just random viewership then I don't think it'd be a problem to see them featured. I personally do not think just having viewers because you stream 2v2 is enough of a 'qualification' to be featured comparatively to the people who qualify through WCS. Edit: While I do think what I wrote here is important based on principle one cannot forget that the featured stream links, and stream links in general, are a very big venture capital for TL. This is why they have an interest in viewership as a qualification. I don't really like the principle though... 
I do look foward to the WCS qualification bringing in a lot new EU and NA streamers tho. More EU than NA that's for sure, but still more in general. Do work~
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As long as mah boy Desrow is never taken off the list I'll be happy.
But he gets pretty good numbers and is doing even better lately so I guess he's pretty safe.
Honestly, I think any up-and-comer streamers should probably check his stream out sometime. He interacts with the chat all the time, explains his strategies, takes time to do Q and A sessions, and even holds raffles and shit for his fans. Other small details are things like saying: "We're gonna queue up some matches and then we're gonna cannon rush." He means "I" but he's saying "we" so you feel, as a viewer, that you are part of the action and are engaged. Also, warning people that ads are coming and not spamming them with ads in the middle of the game is a big deal.
Plus, making sure your chat is well moderated is a big deal. I like chatting a lot while I'm watching streams so I hate it when a chat is full of spam or bots. Code S level play isn't necessary to getting a good fan-base, it's all about interaction and attitude and marketing.
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On July 09 2013 08:02 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 13:01 Grimfish wrote:
I really wanted to voice my opinion on here to the extent that I just registered my first account even though I have been an active TL.net viewer for 3+ years. I'm not here to bash anyone's opinions and I think the overall policy is a good thing, but I would like to comment on Protech.
I feel like this guy should be an exception to these rules because he brings so much more to SC2 E-Sports than just a random 200-300 viewer streamer. This guy on a daily basis shows people that Starcraft has way more depth than just 1v1 competitive play. 2v2 obviously isn't for everyone but I do believe it is very entertaining for a wide variety of people. It is nice to see something different from time to time and 2v2 and 3v3 can provide that. I also think that if more Tournaments held 2v2 games the audience will in fact grow. One of the biggest problems with the current game is that I think it can get a little dull. Strategies become popular and you get into this little grind where a 6 month span can be the same strategies and the game seems to just come down to that 1 engagement. Then someone comes up with a good strategy and every is on that band wagon for another 6 months. 2v2 and 3v3 can keep things fresh, keep things different, and keep SC2 E-Sports growing with more depth.
This post isn't just about Protech either its about expanding SC2 E-Sports as a whole. I would love to see other streamers do this as well. The only other team I can think of that does this is ROOT and I LOVE IT. If people would just take more time and advertise team games more the popularity will grow, I know it. Sorry if this is long and dumb but its literally my first post ever on TL, in the years I have been here, and probably the last. Enjoy!
**EDIT**
Just to be clear my intentions of this post is to grow SC2 in E-Sports. Just as the featured list is to grow the player community of SC2. I just feel this game is a lot more than 1v1 and people should look into ways of bringing it out and getting more involved. Protech consistently brings that to the table just like ROOT does, on occasion, as I mentioned. Hi, yes, we understand about expanding eSports - but that's not what people are saying in this thread. They're saying that solely because a person has viewers does not equate them to being a valuable asset to competitive RTS game play which TL wishes to advance, at least to some degree. The problem with players such as Protech is that he misleads, willingly I might add, many of his stream viewers about his skill level. A testament to his actual 1v1 rating is 50% w/r season 6 at ~800 masters as zerg. If you ever bother to catch him streaming his 1v1 games they're... well... His strategy, skill, and overall game play lack anything close to resembling a GM player; yet, he brands himself as such because he plays 2v2 and gets viewers. Now, I don't want to come down on the guy too hard but if any actual GM player were to play 2v2 and dedicate time to it they'd more than likely entertain you with much more compelling games than Protech, knock his RT rank way down, and completely change how you view 2v2 altogether. That is the argument people are making: If you do want to encourage these people to play, or deepen the levels of which SC2 can grow, then there needs to be some demand for their skill set. Until then, no one good will competitively care about 2v2 other than like ninja and azide and mystic and power simply because they dominate 2v2 tournaments. Just because you want the game to not be completely 1v1 based does not mean it will change. It might be a sad day to realize but the game and competitive scene do not revolve around what 200-300 fans of Protech, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 want. The same is true for anything else that has viewers because of one exclusive reason or cater to a smaller audience. I personally think that unless someone brings something 'significant' to the scene, or meets the skill requirement set by this thread that they should not be featured. If they can reasonably prove that their viewers are a testament to their advancement of Esports, or something actually of value, and not just random viewership then I don't think it'd be a problem to see them featured. I personally do not think just having viewers because you stream 2v2 is enough of a 'qualification' to be featured comparatively to the people who qualify through WCS. Edit: While I do think what I wrote here is important based on principle one cannot forget that the featured stream links, and stream links in general, are a very big venture capital for TL. This is why they have an interest in viewership as a qualification. I don't really like the principle though... I do look foward to the WCS qualification bringing in a lot new EU and NA streamers tho. More EU than NA that's for sure, but still more in general. Do work~
Now I feel the need to defend myself.
I won the PTSL S2 knocking out known pro gamers and code S players who prepared for the tournament. I've knocked out many top known pro gamers in 1v1 and streamed the games. Until you watch all the vods, don't post such a completely asinine post. I've proven time and time again that I have the ability to beat top GM players, but the fact of the matter is my following comes from 2v2 and why I was featured in the first place was for 2v2.
I have a decent viewership, have plenty of achievements to remain in the section.
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On July 08 2013 03:39 Big G wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 02:07 Cowpieguy wrote:
Wow, what's with all the hate for ProTech?! I really enjoy his stream. I would be very disappointed if he got taken off the featured list. I enjoy watching 2v2. I would argue he is one of the best 2v2 players out there. That's worth being featured. I guess that him being a douchebag doesn't help, team games already have a bad reputation and watching constant BM in the only 2v2 featured stream may be a bitter experience. Anyway, I agree that he deserve to be featured, 2v2 is refreshing and Protech's play is enjoyable.
Even if being a douchebag was criteria for removal, there would be a lot more being removed from being featured. I seen him be one to viewers, his opponents and his own teammates, so I choose to stop watching. He gets consistent viewers for 2v2 and is a good player. Nice to see a variety.
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On July 09 2013 10:47 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 08:02 -Kyo- wrote:On July 08 2013 13:01 Grimfish wrote:
I really wanted to voice my opinion on here to the extent that I just registered my first account even though I have been an active TL.net viewer for 3+ years. I'm not here to bash anyone's opinions and I think the overall policy is a good thing, but I would like to comment on Protech.
I feel like this guy should be an exception to these rules because he brings so much more to SC2 E-Sports than just a random 200-300 viewer streamer. This guy on a daily basis shows people that Starcraft has way more depth than just 1v1 competitive play. 2v2 obviously isn't for everyone but I do believe it is very entertaining for a wide variety of people. It is nice to see something different from time to time and 2v2 and 3v3 can provide that. I also think that if more Tournaments held 2v2 games the audience will in fact grow. One of the biggest problems with the current game is that I think it can get a little dull. Strategies become popular and you get into this little grind where a 6 month span can be the same strategies and the game seems to just come down to that 1 engagement. Then someone comes up with a good strategy and every is on that band wagon for another 6 months. 2v2 and 3v3 can keep things fresh, keep things different, and keep SC2 E-Sports growing with more depth.
This post isn't just about Protech either its about expanding SC2 E-Sports as a whole. I would love to see other streamers do this as well. The only other team I can think of that does this is ROOT and I LOVE IT. If people would just take more time and advertise team games more the popularity will grow, I know it. Sorry if this is long and dumb but its literally my first post ever on TL, in the years I have been here, and probably the last. Enjoy!
**EDIT**
Just to be clear my intentions of this post is to grow SC2 in E-Sports. Just as the featured list is to grow the player community of SC2. I just feel this game is a lot more than 1v1 and people should look into ways of bringing it out and getting more involved. Protech consistently brings that to the table just like ROOT does, on occasion, as I mentioned. Hi, yes, we understand about expanding eSports - but that's not what people are saying in this thread. They're saying that solely because a person has viewers does not equate them to being a valuable asset to competitive RTS game play which TL wishes to advance, at least to some degree. The problem with players such as Protech is that he misleads, willingly I might add, many of his stream viewers about his skill level. A testament to his actual 1v1 rating is 50% w/r season 6 at ~800 masters as zerg. If you ever bother to catch him streaming his 1v1 games they're... well... His strategy, skill, and overall game play lack anything close to resembling a GM player; yet, he brands himself as such because he plays 2v2 and gets viewers. Now, I don't want to come down on the guy too hard but if any actual GM player were to play 2v2 and dedicate time to it they'd more than likely entertain you with much more compelling games than Protech, knock his RT rank way down, and completely change how you view 2v2 altogether. That is the argument people are making: If you do want to encourage these people to play, or deepen the levels of which SC2 can grow, then there needs to be some demand for their skill set. Until then, no one good will competitively care about 2v2 other than like ninja and azide and mystic and power simply because they dominate 2v2 tournaments. Just because you want the game to not be completely 1v1 based does not mean it will change. It might be a sad day to realize but the game and competitive scene do not revolve around what 200-300 fans of Protech, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 want. The same is true for anything else that has viewers because of one exclusive reason or cater to a smaller audience. I personally think that unless someone brings something 'significant' to the scene, or meets the skill requirement set by this thread that they should not be featured. If they can reasonably prove that their viewers are a testament to their advancement of Esports, or something actually of value, and not just random viewership then I don't think it'd be a problem to see them featured. I personally do not think just having viewers because you stream 2v2 is enough of a 'qualification' to be featured comparatively to the people who qualify through WCS. Edit: While I do think what I wrote here is important based on principle one cannot forget that the featured stream links, and stream links in general, are a very big venture capital for TL. This is why they have an interest in viewership as a qualification. I don't really like the principle though... I do look foward to the WCS qualification bringing in a lot new EU and NA streamers tho. More EU than NA that's for sure, but still more in general. Do work~ Now I feel the need to defend myself. I won the PTSL S2 knocking out known pro gamers and code S players who prepared for the tournament. I've knocked out many top known pro gamers in 1v1 and streamed the games. Until you watch all the vods, don't post such a completely asinine post. I've proven time and time again that I have the ability to beat top GM players, but the fact of the matter is my following comes from 2v2 and why I was featured in the first place was for 2v2. I have a decent viewership, have plenty of achievements to remain in the section.
This is exactly what I mean. I won't go any further than to say Power is a very good random player, in both 1v1 and 2v2, and that one tournament achievement in 2v2 from nearly 2 years ago should not keep you featured.
That is all.
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On July 09 2013 10:47 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 08:02 -Kyo- wrote:On July 08 2013 13:01 Grimfish wrote:
I really wanted to voice my opinion on here to the extent that I just registered my first account even though I have been an active TL.net viewer for 3+ years. I'm not here to bash anyone's opinions and I think the overall policy is a good thing, but I would like to comment on Protech.
I feel like this guy should be an exception to these rules because he brings so much more to SC2 E-Sports than just a random 200-300 viewer streamer. This guy on a daily basis shows people that Starcraft has way more depth than just 1v1 competitive play. 2v2 obviously isn't for everyone but I do believe it is very entertaining for a wide variety of people. It is nice to see something different from time to time and 2v2 and 3v3 can provide that. I also think that if more Tournaments held 2v2 games the audience will in fact grow. One of the biggest problems with the current game is that I think it can get a little dull. Strategies become popular and you get into this little grind where a 6 month span can be the same strategies and the game seems to just come down to that 1 engagement. Then someone comes up with a good strategy and every is on that band wagon for another 6 months. 2v2 and 3v3 can keep things fresh, keep things different, and keep SC2 E-Sports growing with more depth.
This post isn't just about Protech either its about expanding SC2 E-Sports as a whole. I would love to see other streamers do this as well. The only other team I can think of that does this is ROOT and I LOVE IT. If people would just take more time and advertise team games more the popularity will grow, I know it. Sorry if this is long and dumb but its literally my first post ever on TL, in the years I have been here, and probably the last. Enjoy!
**EDIT**
Just to be clear my intentions of this post is to grow SC2 in E-Sports. Just as the featured list is to grow the player community of SC2. I just feel this game is a lot more than 1v1 and people should look into ways of bringing it out and getting more involved. Protech consistently brings that to the table just like ROOT does, on occasion, as I mentioned. Hi, yes, we understand about expanding eSports - but that's not what people are saying in this thread. They're saying that solely because a person has viewers does not equate them to being a valuable asset to competitive RTS game play which TL wishes to advance, at least to some degree. The problem with players such as Protech is that he misleads, willingly I might add, many of his stream viewers about his skill level. A testament to his actual 1v1 rating is 50% w/r season 6 at ~800 masters as zerg. If you ever bother to catch him streaming his 1v1 games they're... well... His strategy, skill, and overall game play lack anything close to resembling a GM player; yet, he brands himself as such because he plays 2v2 and gets viewers. Now, I don't want to come down on the guy too hard but if any actual GM player were to play 2v2 and dedicate time to it they'd more than likely entertain you with much more compelling games than Protech, knock his RT rank way down, and completely change how you view 2v2 altogether. That is the argument people are making: If you do want to encourage these people to play, or deepen the levels of which SC2 can grow, then there needs to be some demand for their skill set. Until then, no one good will competitively care about 2v2 other than like ninja and azide and mystic and power simply because they dominate 2v2 tournaments. Just because you want the game to not be completely 1v1 based does not mean it will change. It might be a sad day to realize but the game and competitive scene do not revolve around what 200-300 fans of Protech, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 want. The same is true for anything else that has viewers because of one exclusive reason or cater to a smaller audience. I personally think that unless someone brings something 'significant' to the scene, or meets the skill requirement set by this thread that they should not be featured. If they can reasonably prove that their viewers are a testament to their advancement of Esports, or something actually of value, and not just random viewership then I don't think it'd be a problem to see them featured. I personally do not think just having viewers because you stream 2v2 is enough of a 'qualification' to be featured comparatively to the people who qualify through WCS. Edit: While I do think what I wrote here is important based on principle one cannot forget that the featured stream links, and stream links in general, are a very big venture capital for TL. This is why they have an interest in viewership as a qualification. I don't really like the principle though... I do look foward to the WCS qualification bringing in a lot new EU and NA streamers tho. More EU than NA that's for sure, but still more in general. Do work~ Now I feel the need to defend myself. I won the PTSL S2 knocking out known pro gamers and code S players who prepared for the tournament. I've knocked out many top known pro gamers in 1v1 and streamed the games. Until you watch all the vods, don't post such a completely asinine post. I've proven time and time again that I have the ability to beat top GM players, but the fact of the matter is my following comes from 2v2 and why I was featured in the first place was for 2v2. I have a decent viewership, have plenty of achievements to remain in the section.
Again I might add my post wasn't about defending Protech's level of play. Why everyone keeps pointing out his ability in 1v1 is beyond me. Protech is not a 1v1 competitive player he is a 2v2 competitive player. Its like comparing apples to oranges, yes they are both fruits and come from a tree but its a different tree. Maybe having Protech a "Featured Stream" isn't the answer but I do believe at the very least he should be on Notable Streams. Ill state my point one more time, TL.net is a great website for new and old members to see good competitive streams and Protech does deliver that in 2v2. Some of the requirements to be a featured streamer are qualifying so high in WCS. Well there isnt a bracket in that tournament for 2v2 so why should a 2v2 streamer like Protech be knocked out when he cant even compete? My point is that as long as communities keep the 2v2 out there it will eventually grow. It just needs to get out there and websites like this should continue to support it. WCS should support it too and maybe if more people voice their opinions that want to see it, they will come around and make it. I watched the whole WCS tournament last year and WoW had way less viewers compared to SC2 but they still had the tournament. Why not have a 2v2 one, yeah it wont have 100k viewers but it will have plenty of viewers to support it and having a prize pool will only encourage more SC2 pros to give it a shot.
I just want to see SC2 grow more than just the 1v1 and I feel this website is the first stepping stone to seeing that happen. Oh and trust me on this I have voiced my opinion on the SC2 forums about getting WCS involved in team games. Obviously this isn't going to happen anytime in the near future but at least lets have hope for a future.
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On July 09 2013 11:15 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 10:47 ProTech wrote:On July 09 2013 08:02 -Kyo- wrote:On July 08 2013 13:01 Grimfish wrote:
I really wanted to voice my opinion on here to the extent that I just registered my first account even though I have been an active TL.net viewer for 3+ years. I'm not here to bash anyone's opinions and I think the overall policy is a good thing, but I would like to comment on Protech.
I feel like this guy should be an exception to these rules because he brings so much more to SC2 E-Sports than just a random 200-300 viewer streamer. This guy on a daily basis shows people that Starcraft has way more depth than just 1v1 competitive play. 2v2 obviously isn't for everyone but I do believe it is very entertaining for a wide variety of people. It is nice to see something different from time to time and 2v2 and 3v3 can provide that. I also think that if more Tournaments held 2v2 games the audience will in fact grow. One of the biggest problems with the current game is that I think it can get a little dull. Strategies become popular and you get into this little grind where a 6 month span can be the same strategies and the game seems to just come down to that 1 engagement. Then someone comes up with a good strategy and every is on that band wagon for another 6 months. 2v2 and 3v3 can keep things fresh, keep things different, and keep SC2 E-Sports growing with more depth.
This post isn't just about Protech either its about expanding SC2 E-Sports as a whole. I would love to see other streamers do this as well. The only other team I can think of that does this is ROOT and I LOVE IT. If people would just take more time and advertise team games more the popularity will grow, I know it. Sorry if this is long and dumb but its literally my first post ever on TL, in the years I have been here, and probably the last. Enjoy!
**EDIT**
Just to be clear my intentions of this post is to grow SC2 in E-Sports. Just as the featured list is to grow the player community of SC2. I just feel this game is a lot more than 1v1 and people should look into ways of bringing it out and getting more involved. Protech consistently brings that to the table just like ROOT does, on occasion, as I mentioned. Hi, yes, we understand about expanding eSports - but that's not what people are saying in this thread. They're saying that solely because a person has viewers does not equate them to being a valuable asset to competitive RTS game play which TL wishes to advance, at least to some degree. The problem with players such as Protech is that he misleads, willingly I might add, many of his stream viewers about his skill level. A testament to his actual 1v1 rating is 50% w/r season 6 at ~800 masters as zerg. If you ever bother to catch him streaming his 1v1 games they're... well... His strategy, skill, and overall game play lack anything close to resembling a GM player; yet, he brands himself as such because he plays 2v2 and gets viewers. Now, I don't want to come down on the guy too hard but if any actual GM player were to play 2v2 and dedicate time to it they'd more than likely entertain you with much more compelling games than Protech, knock his RT rank way down, and completely change how you view 2v2 altogether. That is the argument people are making: If you do want to encourage these people to play, or deepen the levels of which SC2 can grow, then there needs to be some demand for their skill set. Until then, no one good will competitively care about 2v2 other than like ninja and azide and mystic and power simply because they dominate 2v2 tournaments. Just because you want the game to not be completely 1v1 based does not mean it will change. It might be a sad day to realize but the game and competitive scene do not revolve around what 200-300 fans of Protech, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 want. The same is true for anything else that has viewers because of one exclusive reason or cater to a smaller audience. I personally think that unless someone brings something 'significant' to the scene, or meets the skill requirement set by this thread that they should not be featured. If they can reasonably prove that their viewers are a testament to their advancement of Esports, or something actually of value, and not just random viewership then I don't think it'd be a problem to see them featured. I personally do not think just having viewers because you stream 2v2 is enough of a 'qualification' to be featured comparatively to the people who qualify through WCS. Edit: While I do think what I wrote here is important based on principle one cannot forget that the featured stream links, and stream links in general, are a very big venture capital for TL. This is why they have an interest in viewership as a qualification. I don't really like the principle though... I do look foward to the WCS qualification bringing in a lot new EU and NA streamers tho. More EU than NA that's for sure, but still more in general. Do work~ Now I feel the need to defend myself. I won the PTSL S2 knocking out known pro gamers and code S players who prepared for the tournament. I've knocked out many top known pro gamers in 1v1 and streamed the games. Until you watch all the vods, don't post such a completely asinine post. I've proven time and time again that I have the ability to beat top GM players, but the fact of the matter is my following comes from 2v2 and why I was featured in the first place was for 2v2. I have a decent viewership, have plenty of achievements to remain in the section. This is exactly what I mean. I won't go any further than to say Power is a very good random player, in both 1v1 and 2v2, and that one tournament achievement in 2v2 from nearly 2 years ago should not keep you featured. That is all.
So the only notable 2v2 tournament and yes, the ONLY notable 2v2 tournament shouldn't keep someone featured, ok bro whatever you say.
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EPT
