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Katowice25012 Posts
On July 07 2013 10:49 teamamerica wrote:
I'm just wondering how often people who got featured through non WCS tournys get culled from the list. You mentioned you do it after every WCS qualifier, but I'm sure there are cases where the WCS qualifiers are right after a premier tourny, so if you reach Ro16 in say, Dreamhack Valencia, and then the WCS qualifiers end next week but you drop out, do you lose feature status so quickly?
This is from a handful of pages ago but to be clear I agree it would be pretty unfair for someone to hit a Ro16 and then be defeatured purely because it's near the end of our cycle, so in those instances people will be given more time.
Also I agree with what Spyte posted regarding women and streams. From what I've seen their averages tend to be slightly higher on a base level, but honestly it's a lot less than people realize. Retaining viewers is more a function of how well you personalize the stream and once you get above a certain range it's not just some innate quality, it's generally a measure that something is being done right.
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I am in support of keeping Protech's stream featured.
As someone big into the 2v2 scene, I wanted to post my thoughts about Protech and his stream. While there are some other notable 2v2'ers, nobody comes close to the skill level of Protech. He has been globally rank #1 in 2v2 for countless seasons. Currently, he is top 5 with the highest win ratio (72%!) among any top 2v2er- and many of his losses include him leaving multiple games due to stream cheaters and maphackers.
In addition, there is still a lot of potential for growth in the 2v2 scene on a competitive level, and Protech's stream helps promote this.
(Global 2v2 Rankings: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/2v2r/hots/)
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8751 Posts
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream.
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On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream.
sometimes "over all average" is a poor descriptive statistic
because it can be very useful in some cases people tend to think "over all average" is the "silver bullet" of statistics.
and it is not..
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Just discovered starbucks stream and it's awesome. Fun to watch new talented players. This was a great decision
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On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream.
For the record also, this is not something I do. And it usually takes my stream awhile to peak, and as of late, it has been peaking 4-500 almost every day.
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On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream.
Yeah it's same for me but on the Zerg side of things. Tbh though I don't see TL ever removing you from the feature list unless you asked or something.
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8751 Posts
On July 10 2013 08:41 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream. For the record also, this is not something I do. And it usually takes my stream awhile to peak, and as of late, it has been peaking 4-500 almost every day.
I don't give a shit. Why are you telling me this?
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On July 08 2013 19:44 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 12:03 Ms.Spyte wrote:On July 08 2013 09:26 kaluro wrote:On July 08 2013 05:30 Blitz wrote:
I think its a bit presumptuous to say that being a female gets you viewers. The novelty of it wears off for most people quite quickly. If you just offer looks, unless you're ultra nerd tier / loner, it'll get old staring at a girl playing a game at a mediocre / awful level. I think it helps to bring people in at first sure, but you still have to be moderately entertaining and decent to retain an audience. Plenty of female streamers that get 100-300 viewers, but it takes skill and at least some talent to get past that threshold of just being a female streamer. Sucks to undermine achievements based on being a girl gamer TT Lets look at it differently. I'll take myself for example: I am a mid masters zerg player that has a really aggressive playstyle and doesn't play by the book at all. I run a 720p 60fps stream with HQ sound, custom UI, HD cam and everything. I get what, 40 viewers on a good day. My guess is that if I were to be a cute girl, I would be hitting >100 viewers, at the very least. What lead me to this guess is that most of the female streams that are out there which I have watched, have less to offer than a lot of male counterpart streams, yet the females get 10 times the viewers, if not more. Their skill level would be worse, the stream quality would be worse and the commentary insight would be inferior. I have no problem with female streamer, hell I encourage them even! and I mean no disrespect to them either. But at the lower tier streams (as in viewers, since superb quality streams can still only have small viewer amounts), being a female gives you such a significant boost in viewercount, that you can't possibly say it has no correlation. It doesn't look like you stream often, 12 times total, about 2 streams a month. I averaged much less than 100 viewers for my first few months, streaming 3-5 times a week. It took me two years to get to where I am now, I started in November 2011. Quality is good to have, but I'd argue that the most important thing in developing a fanbase is streaming consistently and interacting with chat, which I understand is difficult because I'm a full time student and chat is not always kind. Females don't get 10x as many viewers as males, that's kind of silly to say, very few break 1k, and a lot sit at <100. Streaming can be stressful, but those that succeed work hard at either improving as a player or improving as a streamer. I stream 3 times a week almost every week, for at least a couple of hours  For some reason my VODs dont get put up on the twitch servers most of the time, even though I am allowing people to view my past broadcasts  So yeah only 2 VOds from july, 2 from february and 2 from january are up, awkwardly. Here is a more accurate view of how often I stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371903¤tpage=5Everytime I stream, I put down a bump message there, mostly 3 times a week - except for june where I was reallly busy. I started streaming in December 2011, for the first time. That was on 720p 30fps while I was still diamond. I have been masters for the past 5 seasons and have been upping my stream quality by purchasing a capture card and going 720p 60fps. I did a lot of quality tweaking and took notice of a lot of feedback I got from viewers and other streamers, so I put effort in too =P. even using a dual screen set-up now so I can read the chat on the fly and interact. Also, I'm not complaining I have little viewers or using the fact I'm not female as an excuse, I'm just going to keep working on my stream and see where it goes ;-)! I merely wanted to throw my experience in that a lot of low tier female streams seem to have a bit higher viewers than male counterparts. Okay maybe not 10x as much, but double - perhaps? This is for low tier streamers only, I often check out the bottom streams. Also, thanks for taking the time to reply!
I would say everything else being equal that a female will get 2-3x the viewers of a male.
Its silly to talk as if there's something wrong with this though.
They 'deserve' this advantage because the market dictates it. There's a lower supply of female streamers.
It's simple supply and demand.
2-3x is hardly anything anyways.
You could also complain that good looking streamers get more viewers than ugly ones but that
wouldn't be very productive either now would it?
You're in an entertainment industry. There are a lot of variables at play that have nothing to do with
how you play starcraft.
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On July 10 2013 11:10 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 08:41 ProTech wrote:On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream. For the record also, this is not something I do. And it usually takes my stream awhile to peak, and as of late, it has been peaking 4-500 almost every day. I don't give a shit. Why are you telling me this?
Damn, Nony, there are days when I think your awesome and then there are days than I wonder about your impulse control and social skills.
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On July 09 2013 11:22 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 11:15 -Kyo- wrote:On July 09 2013 10:47 ProTech wrote:On July 09 2013 08:02 -Kyo- wrote:On July 08 2013 13:01 Grimfish wrote:
I really wanted to voice my opinion on here to the extent that I just registered my first account even though I have been an active TL.net viewer for 3+ years. I'm not here to bash anyone's opinions and I think the overall policy is a good thing, but I would like to comment on Protech.
I feel like this guy should be an exception to these rules because he brings so much more to SC2 E-Sports than just a random 200-300 viewer streamer. This guy on a daily basis shows people that Starcraft has way more depth than just 1v1 competitive play. 2v2 obviously isn't for everyone but I do believe it is very entertaining for a wide variety of people. It is nice to see something different from time to time and 2v2 and 3v3 can provide that. I also think that if more Tournaments held 2v2 games the audience will in fact grow. One of the biggest problems with the current game is that I think it can get a little dull. Strategies become popular and you get into this little grind where a 6 month span can be the same strategies and the game seems to just come down to that 1 engagement. Then someone comes up with a good strategy and every is on that band wagon for another 6 months. 2v2 and 3v3 can keep things fresh, keep things different, and keep SC2 E-Sports growing with more depth.
This post isn't just about Protech either its about expanding SC2 E-Sports as a whole. I would love to see other streamers do this as well. The only other team I can think of that does this is ROOT and I LOVE IT. If people would just take more time and advertise team games more the popularity will grow, I know it. Sorry if this is long and dumb but its literally my first post ever on TL, in the years I have been here, and probably the last. Enjoy!
**EDIT**
Just to be clear my intentions of this post is to grow SC2 in E-Sports. Just as the featured list is to grow the player community of SC2. I just feel this game is a lot more than 1v1 and people should look into ways of bringing it out and getting more involved. Protech consistently brings that to the table just like ROOT does, on occasion, as I mentioned. Hi, yes, we understand about expanding eSports - but that's not what people are saying in this thread. They're saying that solely because a person has viewers does not equate them to being a valuable asset to competitive RTS game play which TL wishes to advance, at least to some degree. The problem with players such as Protech is that he misleads, willingly I might add, many of his stream viewers about his skill level. A testament to his actual 1v1 rating is 50% w/r season 6 at ~800 masters as zerg. If you ever bother to catch him streaming his 1v1 games they're... well... His strategy, skill, and overall game play lack anything close to resembling a GM player; yet, he brands himself as such because he plays 2v2 and gets viewers. Now, I don't want to come down on the guy too hard but if any actual GM player were to play 2v2 and dedicate time to it they'd more than likely entertain you with much more compelling games than Protech, knock his RT rank way down, and completely change how you view 2v2 altogether. That is the argument people are making: If you do want to encourage these people to play, or deepen the levels of which SC2 can grow, then there needs to be some demand for their skill set. Until then, no one good will competitively care about 2v2 other than like ninja and azide and mystic and power simply because they dominate 2v2 tournaments. Just because you want the game to not be completely 1v1 based does not mean it will change. It might be a sad day to realize but the game and competitive scene do not revolve around what 200-300 fans of Protech, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 want. The same is true for anything else that has viewers because of one exclusive reason or cater to a smaller audience. I personally think that unless someone brings something 'significant' to the scene, or meets the skill requirement set by this thread that they should not be featured. If they can reasonably prove that their viewers are a testament to their advancement of Esports, or something actually of value, and not just random viewership then I don't think it'd be a problem to see them featured. I personally do not think just having viewers because you stream 2v2 is enough of a 'qualification' to be featured comparatively to the people who qualify through WCS. Edit: While I do think what I wrote here is important based on principle one cannot forget that the featured stream links, and stream links in general, are a very big venture capital for TL. This is why they have an interest in viewership as a qualification. I don't really like the principle though...  I do look foward to the WCS qualification bringing in a lot new EU and NA streamers tho. More EU than NA that's for sure, but still more in general. Do work~ Now I feel the need to defend myself. I won the PTSL S2 knocking out known pro gamers and code S players who prepared for the tournament. I've knocked out many top known pro gamers in 1v1 and streamed the games. Until you watch all the vods, don't post such a completely asinine post. I've proven time and time again that I have the ability to beat top GM players, but the fact of the matter is my following comes from 2v2 and why I was featured in the first place was for 2v2. I have a decent viewership, have plenty of achievements to remain in the section. This is exactly what I mean. I won't go any further than to say Power is a very good random player, in both 1v1 and 2v2, and that one tournament achievement in 2v2 from nearly 2 years ago should not keep you featured. That is all. So the only notable 2v2 tournament and yes, the ONLY notable 2v2 tournament shouldn't keep someone featured, ok bro whatever you say.
No, it shouldn't, because it happened two years ago. It's like saying that winning the first Beta tournament for WoL should be enough to stay featured forever.
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8751 Posts
On July 10 2013 11:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 11:10 NonY wrote:On July 10 2013 08:41 ProTech wrote:On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream. For the record also, this is not something I do. And it usually takes my stream awhile to peak, and as of late, it has been peaking 4-500 almost every day. I don't give a shit. Why are you telling me this? Damn, Nony, there are days when I think your awesome and then there are days than I wonder about your impulse control and social skills.
I'm trying to bring up some serious issues with their policy and he comes along and gives his word that he doesn't avoid competition and then he posts his estimates of stream numbers. First, the policy hasn't been enacted yet and wasn't public knowledge before this, so no shit he hasn't been doing anything to bring his average up. Nobody has. But they might start and that's a problem. Second, he knows TL.net is gathering the exact stats. Why does he tell me what his stream numbers are? Being frank and telling him I don't give a shit isn't dripping with social grace but it's the right thing to do. I don't know what he was up to with that shit but it wasn't helpful.
As for the real issue, here's some more free advice. There are nice things streamers do for their viewers that result in less viewers. The thing that gets me the most viewers is playing nonstop ladder games with a positive attitude, playing well, having camera and microphone on and talking a lot. If I'm not performing as well at the moment or I'm not in the mood to talk, but some people would still appreciate me flipping the stream on, then I'd like to turn the stream on even though I get less viewers. If I know I'm going to need to take frequent breaks, I'd like to flip the stream on anyway. Shorter session gives less viewers. Q&A session gives lesser viewers. Playing arcade games gives less viewers. Doing analysis gives less viewers. But sometimes I want to do those things and even though there are less people interested in watching, there are still people who would rather see me do those things than see nothing at all.
This is of course added on to the fact that streaming while more popular content is on gives less viewers.
The point is that there are downsides to making "average concurrent viewers" the most important determinant. No one should be discouraged from putting content out there.
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On July 10 2013 12:28 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 11:23 Plansix wrote:On July 10 2013 11:10 NonY wrote:On July 10 2013 08:41 ProTech wrote:On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream. For the record also, this is not something I do. And it usually takes my stream awhile to peak, and as of late, it has been peaking 4-500 almost every day. I don't give a shit. Why are you telling me this? Damn, Nony, there are days when I think your awesome and then there are days than I wonder about your impulse control and social skills. I'm trying to bring up some serious issues with their policy and he comes along and gives his word that he doesn't avoid competition and then he posts his estimates of stream numbers. First, the policy hasn't been enacted yet and wasn't public knowledge before this, so no shit he hasn't been doing anything to bring his average up. Nobody has. But they might start and that's a problem. Second, he knows TL.net is gathering the exact stats. Why does he tell me what his stream numbers are? Being frank and telling him I don't give a shit isn't dripping with social grace but it's the right thing to do. I don't know what he was up to with that shit but it wasn't helpful. As for the real issue, here's some more free advice. There are nice things streamers do for their viewers that result in less viewers. The thing that gets me the most viewers is playing nonstop ladder games with a positive attitude, playing well, having camera and microphone on and talking a lot. If I'm not performing as well at the moment or I'm not in the mood to talk, but some people would still appreciate me flipping the stream on, then I'd like to turn the stream on even though I get less viewers. If I know I'm going to need to take frequent breaks, I'd like to flip the stream on anyway. Shorter session gives less viewers. Q&A session gives lesser viewers. Playing arcade games gives less viewers. Doing analysis gives less viewers. But sometimes I want to do those things and even though there are less people interested in watching, there are still people who would rather see me do those things than see nothing at all. This is of course added on to the fact that streaming while more popular content is on gives less viewers. The point is that there are downsides to making "average concurrent viewers" the most important determinant. No one should be discouraged from putting content out there.
Social graces aside, that was just flat out aggressive. Your 100% correct that the information he provided you is worthless, but just call it that. Or be witty and make some dismissive comment. Or say nothing. Making a comment like the one you did just makes you look like an asshole, which I know your not. But I have been following you since I first listened to State of the Game 3 years ago. Everyone else may not see it that way.
Now, you are Nony and may not care and you could just ignore me, but I hope not. Because stuff that like grows and grows and then haunts you later on when people dig it up, and I don't want to see that.
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So based on the rules, CombatEX qualifies for the featured list due to his Ro8 finish in WCG 2012 and his ability to attract +3,000 viewers per stream?
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On July 10 2013 13:20 Balthazar wrote:
So based on the rules, CombatEX qualifies for the featured list due to his Ro8 finish in WCG 2012 and his ability to attract +3,000 viewers per stream?
I think you are forgetting some other rules, you know, the ones everyone supposedly reads before posting? 
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On July 10 2013 12:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 12:28 NonY wrote:On July 10 2013 11:23 Plansix wrote:On July 10 2013 11:10 NonY wrote:On July 10 2013 08:41 ProTech wrote:On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream. For the record also, this is not something I do. And it usually takes my stream awhile to peak, and as of late, it has been peaking 4-500 almost every day. I don't give a shit. Why are you telling me this? Damn, Nony, there are days when I think your awesome and then there are days than I wonder about your impulse control and social skills. I'm trying to bring up some serious issues with their policy and he comes along and gives his word that he doesn't avoid competition and then he posts his estimates of stream numbers. First, the policy hasn't been enacted yet and wasn't public knowledge before this, so no shit he hasn't been doing anything to bring his average up. Nobody has. But they might start and that's a problem. Second, he knows TL.net is gathering the exact stats. Why does he tell me what his stream numbers are? Being frank and telling him I don't give a shit isn't dripping with social grace but it's the right thing to do. I don't know what he was up to with that shit but it wasn't helpful. As for the real issue, here's some more free advice. There are nice things streamers do for their viewers that result in less viewers. The thing that gets me the most viewers is playing nonstop ladder games with a positive attitude, playing well, having camera and microphone on and talking a lot. If I'm not performing as well at the moment or I'm not in the mood to talk, but some people would still appreciate me flipping the stream on, then I'd like to turn the stream on even though I get less viewers. If I know I'm going to need to take frequent breaks, I'd like to flip the stream on anyway. Shorter session gives less viewers. Q&A session gives lesser viewers. Playing arcade games gives less viewers. Doing analysis gives less viewers. But sometimes I want to do those things and even though there are less people interested in watching, there are still people who would rather see me do those things than see nothing at all. This is of course added on to the fact that streaming while more popular content is on gives less viewers. The point is that there are downsides to making "average concurrent viewers" the most important determinant. No one should be discouraged from putting content out there. Social graces aside, that was just flat out aggressive. Your 100% correct that the information he provided you is worthless, but just call it that. Or be witty and make some dismissive comment. Or say nothing. Making a comment like the one you did just makes you look like an asshole, which I know your not. But I have been following you since I first listened to State of the Game 3 years ago. Everyone else may not see it that way. Now, you are Nony and may not care and you could just ignore me, but I hope not. Because stuff that like grows and grows and then haunts you later on when people dig it up, and I don't want to see that.
I generally agree with Nony, and I sympathize with him in this case. WCS is on often, which leaves time for other streamers, but because of the way TL is making their featured stream system based on concurrent viewers, they are discouraging people from putting content out there. Though, I don't understand what would be a better way to make people featured for, considering the way TL exists as the "old boys' club" possibly based around community voting? I have no idea what they would use instead. The way this system is being constructed, it doesn't necessarily produce a quality featured stream list.
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On July 10 2013 13:20 Balthazar wrote:
So based on the rules, CombatEX qualifies for the featured list due to his Ro8 finish in WCG 2012 and his ability to attract +3,000 viewers per stream?
Why would you bring this up? Ignoring the fact that your comment is worthless to the conversation, you opt to bring up someone that has been banned from streaming from TL indefinitely and therefor these rules dont apply to him. Please don't bring up questions you already know the answer to.
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0.0 fook does this mean i have to start playing again so i can smash some scrub chobo nerds in wcs? i've had it easy all this time.. im finally gonna have to work for something for the first time in my life
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On July 10 2013 11:10 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 08:41 ProTech wrote:On July 10 2013 02:43 NonY wrote:
My viewer numbers are more affected by what other content is available than how I change my own content. This policy discourages me from streaming at a time like right now, when WCS and Grubby are streaming, because my average viewers will be brought down lower than the maintenance number. But it's not like this displaces my stream to a better time. I practice when I practice and keeping my stream off at competitive times in order to retain my privilege of being featured on TL.net for uncompetitive times is just lost content for the people who want to watch my stream. For the record also, this is not something I do. And it usually takes my stream awhile to peak, and as of late, it has been peaking 4-500 almost every day. I don't give a shit. Why are you telling me this?
I'm not telling you that. I'm making it known that I don't do what you do, so my numbers look low, because i don't start to peak until EU hours. Has nothing to do with you.
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I've been enjoying Protech's 2v2 stream a lot. I enjoy both 1v1 and 2v2, and his stream provides top 2v2 content which I appreciate.
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EPT
