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Mutalisks are all it really takes to shut down Oracles in these situations.
They should not be the same speed as a Mutalisk, this means they will not shut down Oracles because they can just run away and wait for the Phoenix to show up and win the game. Seriously they're are enough units that the Protoss can build that auto counter anything the Zerg is attempting to do. If they open Stargate it counters almost everything the Zerg can do. Mutalisk out of the picture, Hydras? Nope Colossus are out before they reach my third. Hive tech Zergling / Ultra just go Templar, Immortal, Archon and sit back and take those points.
They are not addressing anything that has any value to the game. Why are you looking for ways to improve a small aspect of this game when they're obviously huge flaws lying within the standard games. Right now is not the time to do slight improvements to the early game, its time to take a look at what units are doing to well and do slight nerfing here and there.
Like.. Voidrays or Widowmines... BUT seriously Hellbats... why are they healable lol...
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On May 03 2013 08:47 turdburgler wrote:
so spore crawlers with 3 shot mutas, meaning that basically no matter how many you have the spore will kill at least 1 muta. this seems to basically kill mutas zvz, since you will need no more than 4 spores to defend all of the things when mutas first pop, and since you just took no damage without spending gas, you can easily have hydras or infestors on the way.
making for a more exciting, diverse game.
right now you just have to go muta or all-in. I've tried ground for weeks and it's just a super uphill battle the whole time and, versus anyone competent, you just get overrun. mass muta is too strong. they can out expand so easily, counterattack with lings...it's just endless. And it's cost efficient.
Not saying this is the ideal change, but it buys time for a ground army to actually work. Currently, spores tickle mutas, and nothing else is effective. Not good design.
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Could care less about the Oracle, as they said a spore will keep it away.
Burrow I really want to start using more burrow play personally but to get it early it throws my builds off terribly that early in the game so I like that.
As for Spore damage, I love it, I HATE muta battles, sure they're fun to WATCH but to play them is just boring and frustrating.
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rofl @oracle, as if it wasnt enough that it comes @5:20 inbase, now u ll never be even able to kill it even if they commit.
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OMG I'M FREAKING OUT!!! THEY CHANGE THINGS AND ITS ALL BROKEN!!
Seriously, pretty excited about these changes. I'm not sure about the burrow change, but I don't really mind that. I like the fact the oracles are a little zipper, but nothing nuts.
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On May 03 2013 09:00 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:47 turdburgler wrote:
so spore crawlers with 3 shot mutas, meaning that basically no matter how many you have the spore will kill at least 1 muta. this seems to basically kill mutas zvz, since you will need no more than 4 spores to defend all of the things when mutas first pop, and since you just took no damage without spending gas, you can easily have hydras or infestors on the way. making for a more exciting, diverse game. right now you just have to go muta or all-in. I've tried ground for weeks and it's just a super uphill battle the whole time and, versus anyone competent, you just get overrun. mass muta is too strong. they can out expand so easily, counterattack with lings...it's just endless. And it's cost efficient. Not saying this is the ideal change, but it buys time for a ground army to actually work. Currently, spores tickle mutas, and nothing else is effective. Not good design.
but if mutas arent an option the game will quickly devolve back in to roach infestor because until a critical mass is reached where areas become too small pure roach beats roach hydra. its not making games more diverse its just exchanging 1 unit comp for another.
personally i would like to see them increase the build time for the spire by 10-20 seconds. imo the biggest problem with these zvz builds is that scouting the spire, building a large army and then crossing the map is too small a timing. if you scout a spire thats 25% done and dont have roach speed started, you probably cant get to his base with a large enough army to end the game. if the window you could hit was slightly larger rushing to mutas off of 20 lings wouldnt be as easy.
On May 03 2013 09:03 Buddy168 wrote:
Could care less about the Oracle, as they said a spore will keep it away.
Burrow I really want to start using more burrow play personally but to get it early it throws my builds off terribly that early in the game so I like that.
As for Spore damage, I love it, I HATE muta battles, sure they're fun to WATCH but to play them is just boring and frustrating.
the problem with their logic for dealing with oracles, is that as terran a stargate + 1 oracle always pays for itself. assuming the game is fairly standard, it flies in to your base and picks off 3-4 workers once, you now have to build minimum 2 turrets, and even then you arent getting coverage for your gas miners, and bam - pays off every time.
im not saying the oracle is imba, or that i dont like this buff, because its always nice to see changes the encourage micro, but their reasoning is horrific. dont worry concerned zergs, you can just spend double the cost of the oracle on some mutas, or dont worry terrans at least you dont out right die.
every strat should be risk vs reward and it seems that with oracles, there is no risk.
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These changes are minor enough that at the very least, they won't break anything.
Bring on the patch I say.
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On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote:
Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
Yes, because we see them SO MUCH in competitive play....................................
Plus, Terran gets Medivacs that are really hard to catch with boost, and Zerg has extra fast HotS Mutas. Why should Protoss be screwed on harass options?
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Would be nice for photon cannons to get a similar buff (I'm not sure how they could do it only to mutas though as they hit ground also and a bio buff would have implications on a wide variety). Cannons are so terribad vs mutas 
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Dat terran tears... good thing they have balanced units like hellbats.
User was warned for this post
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Similar to the zerg, I would really would like to see ebay requirement for turret thrown out if the oracle change goes through. And if indeed an oracle can escape a widow mine now, seems as if it would be a necessity.
But what do I know.
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Well, Terran doesn't worry about Oracle too much.
But Zerg will have a hard time against oracle.
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I wish there'd be some thoughts on Void Rays and Hellbats....
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These are decent changes. I doubt they will break the game, let alone make it less fun. I'm personally still waiting on a tank buff since I really want to see them more in TvZ and TvP.
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love the changes!
the +30 vs bio I think will create a nice dynamic on ZvZ.
And finally protoss get a harass unit like terran drops or zerg mutalisk... but it is still different with it's own cons like:
-the damage it can do is limited by it's energy.
-cost 150/150/3 + 150/150 (stargate that is dead end tech on PvT) so it needs to kill like 9+ workers to pay for itself.
-is easilly denied by static defense.
-can't really engage/disengage all the time (it costs 25 energy to activate attack so when you use it you better be sure hit something with it)
can't wait to see what a pro can do with it.
I hope all of the changes makes it to the game!
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Not sure who thumbed down the oracle change, but pretty sure that it's by people who haven't tested it. It merely makes the oracle less annoying to use.
If I want to build oracles in PvT in a build that is not all-in I need to be able to navigate them around the map safely, which means I need to be able to use them to detect while I pick up widow mines with phoenix, otherwise I just have to say a hail mary and hope they don't just evaporate mid map. This is possible right now, but extremely annoying to do now that they are slightly slower than the phoenix with very sluggish acceleration. When you tag them on your phoenix, you fly in, spot some stimmed marines, turn phoenix arround - > oracle crawls to a halt, stays still, starts moving again, aaaaand it's dead. I don't know how many times I've flown oracles into widow mines that I had already spotted because it's so slow to decelerate. This changes nothing about the part that terrans complain about which is the part where an oracle flies into your mineral line, and you have no more scv's.
I think the change is great, it makes it less binary: oh you have a turret/widow mine/6 marines, guess I'm way behind now! her derp! Or: oh you went reaper straight into reactor helions, I winz the game naow!
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Blizzard really does not know good balance changes from bad.
Oracle one is a good change, but it will definitely be too "strong". I just hope they do not nerf it and provide means to deal with them. Good balance changes increase the skillcap of units. Silly changes like damage buffs allow players to control them the exact same as they have been but get better results. no no =\
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United Kingdom12021 Posts
I must be the only terran who has no issues dealing even with proxy oracle at the moment. The speedboost should mean late game revelation will be used more which is great.
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On May 03 2013 09:15 larse wrote:
Well, Terran doesn't worry about Oracle too much.
But Zerg will have a hard time against oracle.
How do you figure? Overlords spot it coming in advance, spores don't require evo and you can move them, queens are already there anyway. Terran will basically have to go 12rax15ebay now, lol, and then you die to any allin.
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Pretty good direction and design, but the actual amount of buffing seems huge.
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EPT
