• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:09
CEST 10:09
KST 17:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed18Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Who will win EWC 2025? Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Soulkey Muta Micro Map? BW General Discussion [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 659 users

Call to Action: May 2 Balance Testing

Forum Index > SC2 General
640 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 31 32 33 Next All
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-03 23:29:50
May 02 2013 23:05 GMT
#1
https://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/9643712/
https://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/8170485/

Call to Action: May 2 Balance Testing by David Kim May 2, 2013 4:00 PM PDT

[image loading]


We’ve just published a custom version of Akilon Wastes, "Akilon Wastes (2.0.7 Balance v1.0)," in which we’re testing small balance changes to StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm. Our plan is to first consider these, and then potentially test additional changes. Here’s the situation:



Spore Crawler damage increased from 15 +15 vs. biological to 15 +30 vs. biological

As mentioned previously, we would first like to try a change for ZvZ that doesn’t affect the other matchups. The overall balance for Heart of the Swarm is in a good place right now, and we’d like to avoid altering too much while addressing the issue with Zerglings and Mutalisks being a bit too dominant in the Zerg mirror matchup.

With this change, we’re trying to strike a balance between encouraging a variety of strategies while keeping Mutalisk-based play viable. The increase to Spore Crawler damage will highly discourage players from using small packs of Mutalisks to attack a location where one or more Spore Crawlers are present. We feel this change will help bring peace of mind to Zerg players who attempt ground-based strategies since they won’t have to worry about Mutalisk harass early on. Furthermore, players who opt for ground units should now have time to build enough Spore Crawlers and other anti-air units that they can comfortably take a third or fourth base on most maps.

We consider this to be the most important balance change in this version of the test map, and we would like everyone to really focus on Zerg vs. Zerg during their playtesting so that we can iterate on a fix for the matchup in subsequent balance maps if necessary.

Poll: Second impressions of Spore Crawler change?

Thumbs up (1165)
 
68%

Thumbs down (425)
 
25%

No thumbs (125)
 
7%

1715 total votes

Your vote: Second impressions of Spore Crawler change?

(Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs


+ Show Spoiler [First Impressions Poll] +
Poll: First impressions of ZvZ Changes?

Thumbs up (1723)
 
75%

Thumbs down (375)
 
16%

No thumbs (197)
 
9%

2295 total votes

Your vote: First impressions of ZvZ Changes?

(Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs




Burrow research cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50

When we originally moved the Burrow upgrade down to tier 1, our initial goal was to expand the aggressive options for Zerg in the early game. We saw some early Burrow play in the first HotS tournaments, but almost never see it being utilized anymore. We feel that there’s a decent amount of potential in this area for players and spectators alike, and want to try a buff that encourages more aggressive tactics for Zerg players at Hatchery tech.

We don’t feel that Zerg is at a disadvantage in any way during the early game, and we agree that a cost reduction to Burrow is not a must-have change. We’re just trying out the Burrow research buff for now in hopes of seeing more diverse play. If necessary, we’d like to try a few versions of the buff in order to achieve this goal. If it turns out that Burrow at tier 1 simply doesn’t accomplish what we’d like, we’re fine moving forward without implementing this change.

Poll: Second impressions of Burrow change?

Thumbs up (944)
 
48%

Thumbs down (910)
 
46%

No thumbs (111)
 
6%

1965 total votes

Your vote: Second impressions of Burrow change?

(Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs


+ Show Spoiler [First Impressions Poll] +
Poll: First impressions of Burrow Changes?

Thumbs up (1580)
 
67%

Thumbs down (576)
 
24%

No thumbs (210)
 
9%

2366 total votes

Your vote: First impressions of Burrow Changes?

(Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs




Oracle movement speed increased from 3.375 to 4

Oracle acceleration increased from 2 to 3

Of all the changes we proposed last week, the Oracle speed increase seemed to receive the most diverse feedback. We’d like to take this opportunity to address a few of the concerns that we’re seeing from players at the highest level:

We’re already seeing proxy Stargate openers, and we’ll see these tactics more frequently with this change.
  • In general, we’re not seeing proxy Oracles ending games, nor giving huge advantages to Protoss players. We feel that proxy strategies or hidden tech strategies are fun to watch, and we don’t think this change will have a negative impact on the game—even if players have to scout for proxy Stargates a bit more carefully.
Oracle all-ins are really strong and a speed increase will make these strategies even stronger.
  • Oracle all-ins are usually backed up by other units. If we increased Oracle health or damage, the all-in would be stronger, but a movement speed increase doesn’t buff a one-time all-in attack.
Oracles will be near impossible to counter with ground units if the Protoss player micros perfectly.
  • This actually sounds pretty cool and helps differentiate the Oracle from other harass units in the game.
    Oracles can also be one of the easiest harass units to deal with, depending on how you choose to fend them off. All you really need to do is place static defense in the center of your mineral line and an Oracle will be unable to deal too much economic damage there.
  • We also feel that the Oracle becomes increasingly interesting as a unit in situations where it is constantly threatening to pick off small groups of workers, scout bases, or track army movements with Revelation. That said, a Viking or a few
  • Mutalisks are all it really takes to shut down Oracles in these situations.
Overall, we feel these changes will help the Oracle become more core to the game, and give players a lot more to analyze during games in which Protoss players make use of Oracles. Our hope for the Oracle is that it will be a unit that greatly rewards players who micro really well.

Poll: Second impressions of Oracle change?

Thumbs down (1470)
 
61%

Thumbs up (846)
 
35%

No thumbs (103)
 
4%

2419 total votes

Your vote: Second impressions of Oracle change?

(Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs


+ Show Spoiler [First Impressions Poll] +
Poll: First impressions of Oracle Changes?

Thumbs down (1574)
 
53%

Thumbs up (1111)
 
38%

No thumbs (263)
 
9%

2948 total votes

Your vote: First impressions of Oracle Changes?

(Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs




Thank you for your continued feedback and support. We kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above. We’ve already reviewed your previous feedback on the proposed changes, and at this point we’re only looking for actual gameplay feedback so that we can determine whether or not we’ll need another test map.

We’d like to restate that none of the changes we addressed today are final, and feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us now. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test each change thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.

https://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/9643712/
https://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/8170485/
Facebook Twitter Reddit
This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
aike
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1629 Posts
May 02 2013 23:08 GMT
#2
Time for Sporecrawler/phoenix pushes in 2v2s against terran/zerg combos?! haha.
Wahaha
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
May 02 2013 23:12 GMT
#3
Fuck they went through with the oracle change
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
semmeL
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany85 Posts
May 02 2013 23:13 GMT
#4
Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking.
Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.

Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.

lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
May 02 2013 23:14 GMT
#5
50/50 burrow is gonna have burrow rushes into blocking naturtals..
nGBeast
Profile Joined July 2010
United States914 Posts
May 02 2013 23:14 GMT
#6
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change


It's called a beta test for a reason.
algue
Profile Joined July 2011
France1436 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-02 23:15:44
May 02 2013 23:15 GMT
#7
We’re already seeing proxy Stargate openers, and we’ll see these tactics more frequently with this change.
In general, we’re not seeing proxy Oracles ending games, nor giving huge advantages to Protoss players. We feel that proxy strategies or hidden tech strategies are fun to watch, and we don’t think this change will have a negative impact on the game—even if players have to scout for proxy Stargates a bit more carefully.


It's just a beta test, it has to go. Please go away, never come back !
rly ?
petered
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1817 Posts
May 02 2013 23:15 GMT
#8
I know a lot of people complained about the oracle speed increase in the other thread but I really hope that one makes it to the final version. I think it would be cool to watch an oracle or two zip around the map picking off stray units.
This, my friends, is the power of the Shikyo Memorial for QQ therapy thread. We make the world a better place, one chainsaw massacre prevention at a time.
snively
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1159 Posts
May 02 2013 23:15 GMT
#9
buff oracle so much :O
My religion is Starcraft
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
May 02 2013 23:15 GMT
#10
On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change


It's called a beta test for a reason.


To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through
When I think of something else, something will go here
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
May 02 2013 23:15 GMT
#11
Surprised the map isn't Antiga Shipyard!
Lemonayd
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States745 Posts
May 02 2013 23:16 GMT
#12
This game still feels like a beta
Tsubbi
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7979 Posts
May 02 2013 23:17 GMT
#13
please buff swarmhosts, its the new core zerg unit and doesnt get used at all
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
May 02 2013 23:17 GMT
#14
50/50 burrow? WTF? Why not make it free, lol. I already get burrow now out of habit and now it's even cheaper?

Burrowed banelings ZvZ here I come!
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 02 2013 23:18 GMT
#15
The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
May 02 2013 23:21 GMT
#16
I don't like the burrow change too much. The current price point is good, players will eventually start using it in clever ways, I don't see why Blizzard tries to force it to be used this way, it's not good for the integrity of the game I suppose.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Subspace
Profile Joined December 2010
35 Posts
May 02 2013 23:22 GMT
#17
On May 03 2013 08:18 TheDwf wrote:
The proposed Oracle changes are a horrible idea. Don't know for ZvP and PvP but the last thing TvP needs is more lottery.


Terran already has the best scouting options in game...
partydude89
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
1850 Posts
May 02 2013 23:23 GMT
#18
On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote:
Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking.
Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.

Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.



Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do.
#1 Official Hack Fan|#2 Bomber behind Wintex.|Curious|Life|Flash|TY|Cure|Maru|sOs|Jin Air Green Wings fighting!|SBENU Fighting!|
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
May 02 2013 23:24 GMT
#19
Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?
Aquila-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
516 Posts
May 02 2013 23:24 GMT
#20
Spore buff is ok, rest are terrible changes, buffing Oracle that is already borderline broken are you kidding me?
1 2 3 4 5 31 32 33 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 51m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 318
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 4212
Larva 626
PianO 294
Dewaltoss 196
Backho 134
Leta 102
Sacsri 41
Bonyth 28
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
NotJumperer 2
Stormgate
NightEnD23
Dota 2
ODPixel654
XcaliburYe540
XaKoH 433
NeuroSwarm102
League of Legends
JimRising 656
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1312
Super Smash Bros
amsayoshi42
Westballz21
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor90
Other Games
summit1g10759
SortOf97
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2393
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH249
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2138
League of Legends
• Rush1704
• HappyZerGling128
Other Games
• WagamamaTV215
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1h 51m
Online Event
7h 51m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
9h 51m
Esports World Cup
2 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
3 days
Esports World Cup
4 days
Esports World Cup
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.