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On May 06 2013 19:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 18:38 USvBleakill wrote:On May 06 2013 18:29 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 17:29 Snowbear wrote:On May 06 2013 15:18 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 14:19 Insoleet wrote:On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote:
Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs. Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote:
The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy. Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point. Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want... And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent. You are talking about WOL right? Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg. Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore. The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first. Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect. WOL=/= HotS WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything. There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS. People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition). Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used. This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed. no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s. Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks. In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that). And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore. lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you...
Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough.
It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap.
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On May 06 2013 19:18 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 19:06 Big J wrote:On May 06 2013 18:38 USvBleakill wrote:On May 06 2013 18:29 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 17:29 Snowbear wrote:On May 06 2013 15:18 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 14:19 Insoleet wrote:On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote:
Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs. Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote:
The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy. Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point. Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want... And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent. You are talking about WOL right? Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg. Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore. The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first. Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect. WOL=/= HotS WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything. There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS. People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition). Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used. This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed. no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s. Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks. In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that). And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore. lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you... Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough. It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap.
Wait... your problems is ultras. The counter to that is MMM with a 1:1 or higher marine:marauder ratio. And you say it's hard to get that army while denying 6bases for zerg... You get that army of 3-4bases at 15-18mins. I don't know which beastly zergs you play that have 6bases and ultras at that time and survived all forms of pushes and drops and hellions.
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sure bro, randomly drop two hellbats here and there is really hard and forgiving for the other races. Log in the KR server, play there and see how much koreans terran are playing different the game, they're using hots units at least, not noly mass recall medivacs.
The old "terran is only for koreans" thing is not true anymore, stop this shit
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On May 06 2013 19:18 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 19:06 Big J wrote:On May 06 2013 18:38 USvBleakill wrote:On May 06 2013 18:29 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 17:29 Snowbear wrote:On May 06 2013 15:18 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 14:19 Insoleet wrote:On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote:
Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs. Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote:
The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy. Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point. Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want... And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent. You are talking about WOL right? Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg. Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore. The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first. Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect. WOL=/= HotS WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything. There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS. People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition). Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used. This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed. no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s. Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks. In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that). And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore. lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you... Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough. It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap.
widow mines are WAY harder to deal with than to play with them as T. drops got WAY harder to deal with. hellbats are literally an a-move unit. T got easier to play in HOTS while getting harder to play against. you are right for WoL but in HOTS things changed a lot.
and yeah for your specific problem with ultras. focusfire with marauders smash that. mix in some hellbats (T should start that anyway) and MMMM + hellbat will become even stronger.
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man i hate when people who don't actually play the game at a decent level argue about balance. It really makes these threads unmanageable.
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so true, would at least like to see the level the posters are playing at
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On May 06 2013 19:43 Tsubbi wrote:
so true, would at least like to see the level the posters are playing at
That's my profile http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/987923/1/Jay/
I'm only playing unranked these days, switching in between zerg an terran. (though after a short periode of nearly only Terran, much more zerg again)
As it's unranked, you can't see my level, but I'm nearly exclusively playing masters and some diamonds, so my MMR should be considered low masters EU. (I leave a lot of games at the start if I get ZvZ and sometimes in TvT and TvP as well)
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Have you heared about the reaper having concusive shells rumor?
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Yeah, my profile is http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/797895/1/Ghanburighan/
Might be easier to check me out at ggtracker http://ggtracker.com/players/187077
The bottom line is, I shouldn't ever argue based on my own games (from plats to master), and if I do please laugh at me and point me towards a door. When I do discuss balance, it's based on the very top level of players, as imbalances at my level just don't matter. Terran v Zerg was annoying as anything to play with under 100 APM at platinum level as you died to a-moved banes all the time. And my silver level zerg friend 1 bases a lot and dies to mass marines. But those are no reasons to claim there's anything wrong with the MU.
Edit: I do have a 92-93% win rate in Desert Strike HotS (EU), so I think I can discuss the balance there (i.e., reapers, reapers everywhere!)
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On May 06 2013 19:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 19:18 USvBleakill wrote:On May 06 2013 19:06 Big J wrote:On May 06 2013 18:38 USvBleakill wrote:On May 06 2013 18:29 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 17:29 Snowbear wrote:On May 06 2013 15:18 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 14:19 Insoleet wrote:On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote:
Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs. Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:On May 06 2013 08:27 Xequecal wrote:
The issue was (and still is) that marines are basically invincible off-creep. They move faster than banelings off creep, so you need infestors to kill them. The hellions would prevent any creep spread which led to the marines containing the Zerg in, as he had no way to ever take a third base without lair tech and infestors. At this point Terran would be on 3 saturated bases and the win was easy. Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point. Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want... And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent. You are talking about WOL right? Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg. Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore. The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first. Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect. WOL=/= HotS WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything. There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS. People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition). Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used. This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed. no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s. Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks. In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that). And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore. lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you... Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough. It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap. Wait... your problems is ultras. The counter to that is MMM with a 1:1 or higher marine:marauder ratio. And you say it's hard to get that army while denying 6bases for zerg... You get that army of 3-4bases at 15-18mins. I don't know which beastly zergs you play that have 6bases and ultras at that time and survived all forms of pushes and drops and hellions.
No, the Ultras are not the problem if you look at them isolated. They are expensive, need good upgrades to work and get stuck easily.
My point is that the combination of fast upgrades, fast hive, and the better zerg lategame macroability makes them a bit too strong and too easy to use compared to the usual terran army.
I´m not saying that Ultras are op i´m saying that the combination of more forgivable macro (you cant turn 5k3k overmins/gas into 15 Ultras as a terran) and the fact that Ultras don´t need that much of a support army as other T3 Units like colossus or Tempest makes them stronger as BL in WoL.
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On May 06 2013 20:42 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 19:29 Big J wrote:On May 06 2013 19:18 USvBleakill wrote:On May 06 2013 19:06 Big J wrote:On May 06 2013 18:38 USvBleakill wrote:On May 06 2013 18:29 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 17:29 Snowbear wrote:On May 06 2013 15:18 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 14:19 Insoleet wrote:On May 06 2013 02:18 massivez wrote:
Yeh, while not as onesided as TvZ after the queen patch. Terran was favored against zerg before the patch, thing was the hellions let Terran play very greedy, while beïng save against most allins. After the patch terran just had a harder time knowing when to play greedy or defensive because they lost their mapcontrol. Terran IS scary if they can get their third early on uncontested. Once the production kicks in, it's rly hard to break a terran without totally crushing their army.
The same is happening now, arguably Terran have more defensive options now with hellbats, widow mines, siege tech on factory without tech lab. You see the top tier terrans play ultra greedy (Innovation, Flash), taking a third at around 9-9.30. Defending this with only a few hellions and widow mines. With some good micro, you shouldn't get surrounded by Zerglings offcreep.
I gotta say the matchup is more fun to watch, but fun gameplay doesn't mean balance. The terran army is just too cost efficiënt against zerg while also beïng bulletproof in the macro department. Anyway im still liking blizzards aproach, it's easy to get overboard with nerfs or buffs. Well, if the terrans plays greedy, the zerg can generally scout it and play even more greedy... The number of times i saw stephano going 3-4 bases, mass droning without anything more than 20 zerglings on the map because his opponent did a 3CC build...On May 06 2013 08:44 Bagi wrote:
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Funny how even with "invincible" marines and "easy wins" ZvT still had a 50% win ratio at that point. Offcreep you need to not play braindead amove into the bio. Prepare a flank, mindgame your opponent to force him moving where you want... And ZvT was more a 55% for terrans, 45% for zergs. Which his very bad on the ladder, when you are supposed to play against a evenly strong opponent. You are talking about WOL right? Because in HotS. Terran can play just as greedy as Zerg. Zerg can't just take 4-5 base easily in HotS anymore. The nerf will come soon to Terran.
True, and then months later zergs finally find out about something called the viper, about burrowed banelings everywhere, about 10:00 roachbusts (that basicly destroy every terran that doesn't make tanks), about swarmhosts, about constant banelingdrops with the speedlords, about roach hydra viper, etc. But yes, this will take a while so terran will probably get nerfed first. Then after a few months we will be where WOL was at the end, and that was soooooo much fun, right? That was all fair and perfect. WOL=/= HotS WOL Infestor was overpowered. It was an unit that was good vs everything. There won't be a domination of Infestor/BL anymore. Please tell me how many games where you actually still see Infestor/BL in HotS. It's almost rare to see that composition. Terran and Toss already got ways to deal with that already in HotS. People are already using Roach/Hydra/Viper and Roachbusts. SH will be not used in TvZ unless T goes mech which no one does(Bio+Mines are the best composition). Baneling drops with speedlords and burrowed banelings are under-used. This is HotS. Not WOL anymore. The role has changed. no the role hasn´t changed. As a terran you are still on the clock and you have to make damage in the early game. The only difference now is that there are Ultralisk instead of BL´s. Watch the practise session that Demuslim did against Suppy a couple of days ago. He crushed him a couple of times with super fast Ultralisks. In my opinion the Widowmine needs a change to reduce the splash (Hellbats are the unit to build to ling/zealot) and increase the single target (maybe against massive or something like that). And a BattleCruiser buff would be nice because its never used in serious games, not even in tvt anymore. lol what? Terran on a clock? You have bio and biomech and mech armies that beat anything in the right ratios. Extremely powerful drop and counterattack play with the medivac that buys incredible amounts of time to adjust your army. You have an airarmy that I can't remember to ever see lose in WoL - with the strong infestor and the weaker raven and the far longer transitioning time due to upgrades... If you have trouble with Ultras - build marauders in time. Yeah, thank god there is one unit left that can break the 30marines/minute rally. But if you think it's broken because pure marine/mine can't deal with it, I can't help you... Aktually, i kind of agree with you in a perfect world with perfect unit control the Terran army is the best or better sayed the most cost efficient army. The Problem is to get to that army while denying 6 bases for the zerg. The margin of error with Terran is just smaller than for Z or P. And there is no way a Terran could ever surprise you because there are no tech switches and there is no other unit composition that is viable and flexible enough. It´s the good old "Terran is the best race by far if the player is better" - crap. Wait... your problems is ultras. The counter to that is MMM with a 1:1 or higher marine:marauder ratio. And you say it's hard to get that army while denying 6bases for zerg... You get that army of 3-4bases at 15-18mins. I don't know which beastly zergs you play that have 6bases and ultras at that time and survived all forms of pushes and drops and hellions. My point is that the combination of fast upgrades, fast hive, and the better zerg lategame macroability makes them a bit too strong and too easy to use compared to the usual terran army. I´m not saying that Ultras are op i´m saying that the combination of more forgivable macro (you cant turn 5k3k overmins/gas into 15 Ultras as a terran) and the fact that Ultras don´t need that much of a support army as other T3 Units like colossus or Tempest makes them stronger as BL in WoL.
Honnestly I don't see why you say "fast hive". It's really goddamn hard to have hive fast, upgrades and a good economy against a good terran. Because you need mutas to deal with drops, and banelings to not die to terran pushes, I don't see how you can do a "fast hive" in Hots. Yep you can have it at a decent timing, but not "fast with 3/3 and a lot of bases" if the terran don't screw up.
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what if we added an ensnare ability to spore crawlers? only affecting air bio, we can tweak the numbers (radius/single target, speed effect slowdown, cooldown, etc.)
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On May 06 2013 03:22 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 02:02 FCReverie wrote:On May 06 2013 01:02 Zarahtra wrote:On May 06 2013 00:50 reneg wrote:On May 05 2013 20:56 Thrillz wrote:On May 05 2013 11:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 05 2013 04:16 plogamer wrote:On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote:
The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true. A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff. But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions. Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face. The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more. It wasn't exciting to watch. It was painful. Terran player would make a bunch of helions, then move on in. As someone else just pointed out, there was no tension from a T perspective. Now they at least have to think about it for a second before blindly throwing 6 or 8 helions into your base with hardly any attention paid to them. If the Z played it perfectly, they'd be able to escape it, but so many helions can roast so many drones so quickly that it was extremely easy for it to become an uphill battle. If hellions reached your mineral line you were doing something wrong already, so you should take dmg. That is why people had started walling off and before the patch especially. There wasn't really any issue with the hellions the reason for the change was that blizzard didn't want the _creep spread_ to be controlled so well by the terran which was also preventing the zerg from getting out from hellion contains. That lead into a free base for the zerg and droning up to full saturation if the T tried to go macro. The runbys were never really what bothered Blizzard, or atleast wasn't the motive for the patch, the zerg just needs to L2P if that was an issue for them. I don't really understand why people are critizing "droning up to 70", because that was exactly what happened after the patch, assuming the T tried to go 3rd OC. If he didn't go 3rd OC ofc the zerg had to stop a little earlier, but by that time the terran was essentially pretty allin, he had to do considerable dmg. I'd also note that the mass queen opening was already viable before the patch. It wasn't killing the hellions really, but with the amount of queens they could push abit off creep to get the creep tumors down behind them. The patch was essentially Blizzard trying to force the metagame to shift, which had terrible effects on the best MU in WoL. I really don't think ZvT was ever the best matchup in WoL :/ It was basically the Terran doing the same thing every game and the Zerg being on the back foot until about 15+ minutes if the game lasted that long. You know that all these things you say about Z are true for T as well. Terran can just scv up to 70 unless the Zerg doesn't take a 3rd in which case the zerg is pretty all in anyway. You know how hard it is to do damage before lategame without going all in as Zerg? You only have melee units essentially (hydras are pretty ineffective againt terran and roach have such short range) and you are against Tanks Mines and Hellbats right now, all of which destroy units that cluster together, which happen to be small melee units. So basically we have to sit back and let you macro or wait for you to come out and attack us. Terran can go full macro till 70SCVs free? Have you played ladder or watched streams lately? DemusliM suffered this TvZ 2 days ago.Every single TvZ was facing Roach-ling,Roach bane, or ling baneling NOT ALL IN.It was only 7-10 min aggression.Nowadays there is the 2 base mass roach into 3rd aggresion at almos 12 mins with non stop roach.TErran need to expand with reactor hellion or reaper hellion into 3 CCs to try outrmacro the Zerg who is totally free to take his 3rd without any fear.You cant punish that 3rd neither deny it with only 6-8 hellions.Neither runbies are possible due to the evo/spine/queen wall and deny creep is expose your hellions to the 2-3 queendraliks shots. Zerg was never back in the first 15 mins.Every Master Zerg is maxed at 14 mins ready to deny drops or the Terrans 3rd,preparing the Hive transition to Greater Spire or Ultralisks
Yep it was hyperbole just like it is to say that Zerg can drone to 70. See how worthless it is to say that kind of thing?
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Blinding cloud on spores, I'm a genius !
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On May 07 2013 03:33 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
Blinding cloud on spores, I'm a genius !
this brings up a point in my mind. i'm not sure how i feel about the viper given the metagame is still developing but i must say it looks to be turning out like a weird unit, similar to how the raven was in WoL
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I am a little more worried about widow mines. Something a few friends and I were debating is, if you have detection in the area, widow mines should not be able to go off. Before I get crucified, think about it. Terran would have to micro to kill an overseer and then all widow mines would go off making them high risk/high reward. But that is just my two cents.
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On May 07 2013 04:49 AyMnRSC2 wrote:
I am a little more worried about widow mines. Something a few friends and I were debating is, if you have detection in the area, widow mines should not be able to go off. Before I get crucified, think about it. Terran would have to micro to kill an overseer and then all widow mines would go off making them high risk/high reward. But that is just my two cents.
In TvT you just chain scan and they never ever go off.
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Oracle buff approved by a top masters Terran <~ me.
Oracle is easy to shut down with 6 marines. No need for vikings or med or anything. Or a quick mine can kill it easily.
If you have problems dealing with Oracles it's probably your lack of proper counter, no offense. We've not seen oracle being used in Korean pro scenes 90% of PvT. It's easy to defend early on and impossible to use in mid-late games because it's so slow that stimmed Marines can kill it rather quickly.
Buffed Oracle is just another version of muta or boost medivacs. It will take time to deal with the change but eventually Terran and Zerg will adapt.
Even if you think what I'm saying is non-sense, it's a fact that Oracle is not being used in Korean pro level. It needs a buff to be ever have a chance of being used.
Tips: You can defend proxy oracles with any build. for example, if you went reaper first build a reactor right after the first reaper. after scouting P's base, check their first expo with it 1 min later. if there is no expo, build a Turret at least. With other builds like no rax expo, it's a piece of cake as you will have 7 marines when proxy oracle hits.
Really, if you know how to counter oracle is useless in TvP as of now.
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On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote:
Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking.
Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Lol that is false. I dislike the change as well, however you can make 1 mistake and lose a hatchery and its game over. Which is lame
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On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote:
Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking.
Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Well, there is a pretty big difference. In BW muta vs muta was more like muta/scourge battles--which is akin to ling/bane (and is very exciting). SC2 has no such air-baneling; therefor the only option is to just crash mutas into each other rather than have intense splitting/baiting and other awesome things going on.
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EPT
