• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:33
CEST 02:33
KST 09:33
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20252Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202576RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced15BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships? Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 I offer completely free coaching services
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 656 users

Call to Action: May 2 Balance Testing - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
640 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 31 32 33 Next All
Rhuubarb
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia102 Posts
May 02 2013 23:43 GMT
#41
As a terran, I have no problems with the oracle change, but having said that. I'm not a player that goes the only marine early game strat so it doesn't affect me as much.
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
May 02 2013 23:44 GMT
#42
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote:
Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.

Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.


Open on a Reaper and you get free scouting of anything the Protoss is doing. It does require you to infer some things based on unit/probe/building count to detect proxies, but you get to see their whole base whenever your want for the first 6 minutes of the game at least.
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
May 02 2013 23:44 GMT
#43
The Corruptor should be the one with +bio. Theoretically Corruptors should just be a better unit, but that'd destroy balance.
The more you know, the less you understand.
Tayar
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1439 Posts
May 02 2013 23:46 GMT
#44
i don't really care to test it myself, but i wonder if the oracle is now fast enough to escape widow mine shots if you run as soon as it unburrows to shoot.
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
May 02 2013 23:46 GMT
#45
On May 03 2013 08:42 Madera wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote:
Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?

Because speed isn't the problem with the oracle. When used in PvT it's pretty much an all or nothing unit. Generally it either catches you off-guard and does game ending damage or you scout it and prepare and it does nothing. The problem with the oracle is that it doesn't have a solid mid-game transition to justify spending money on a stargate unless you're continuing down that tech path or using it with your all-in.

But speed won't help make the all-ins stronger. It will help in the lategame when you have spare gas to get a few oracles. It's actually very similar to lategame DTs. You build a few of them, and catch the other player off guard. With the added speed, you can also use them to track enemy movements as well as harass. So unlike DTs, the oracles will be able to return to a different role once the zerg/terran/protoss gets up anti-air defense.
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9193 Posts
May 02 2013 23:47 GMT
#46
I understand mass muta is a problem in zvz but +30 vs biological seems just ridiculous. I think they should look for a solution somewhere else, like in corruptors or hydras.
Oracle buff is weird. Protoss needs a lot of work but I wouldn't start from Oracles. I just don't understand why Blizzard wants Protoss to rely on gimmicks so much.
You're now breathing manually
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
May 02 2013 23:47 GMT
#47
so spore crawlers with 3 shot mutas, meaning that basically no matter how many you have the spore will kill at least 1 muta. this seems to basically kill mutas zvz, since you will need no more than 4 spores to defend all of the things when mutas first pop, and since you just took no damage without spending gas, you can easily have hydras or infestors on the way.
BaaL`
Profile Joined May 2010
297 Posts
May 02 2013 23:48 GMT
#48
On May 03 2013 08:44 Xequecal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote:
Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.

Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.


Open on a Reaper and you get free scouting of anything the Protoss is doing. It does require you to infer some things based on unit/probe/building count to detect proxies, but you get to see their whole base whenever your want for the first 6 minutes of the game at least.


If you open reaper you can't have 6 marines in time for proxy oracle, especially with added speed (unless maybe if you don't get a CC, which is pretty much auto-loss).

I guess the new standard TvP will be barracks, e-bay, then CC, then more barracks and/or factory. At least when you scout double gas, which honestly is such a sick opening for P I don't know why you would ever go 1 gas vs Terran.
Thrillz
Profile Joined May 2012
4313 Posts
May 02 2013 23:48 GMT
#49
Hopefully they don't go through with these. All of them look pretty mediocre., sometimes I wonder what Blizzard is thinking and whether they actually follow the game at all.
Madera
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden2672 Posts
May 02 2013 23:50 GMT
#50
On May 03 2013 08:46 convention wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2013 08:42 Madera wrote:
On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote:
Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?

Because speed isn't the problem with the oracle. When used in PvT it's pretty much an all or nothing unit. Generally it either catches you off-guard and does game ending damage or you scout it and prepare and it does nothing. The problem with the oracle is that it doesn't have a solid mid-game transition to justify spending money on a stargate unless you're continuing down that tech path or using it with your all-in.

But speed won't help make the all-ins stronger. It will help in the lategame when you have spare gas to get a few oracles. It's actually very similar to lategame DTs. You build a few of them, and catch the other player off guard. With the added speed, you can also use them to track enemy movements as well as harass. So unlike DTs, the oracles will be able to return to a different role once the zerg/terran/protoss gets up anti-air defense.

Making all-ins stronger is not what I meant. I'm saying the speed buff won't do anything for the oracle except reinforcing its role as an all or nothing unit. You could already get a couple of oracles in the late-game before the suggested change.
DenTenker
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States606 Posts
May 02 2013 23:51 GMT
#51
Does the oracle change make it faster than the mutalisk?

I like the burrow change. Early game zerg will change a lot, I feel. It's a minimal investment for a game-long ability. Burrow timings will hit a little earlier, making it that much more deadly.
If your all in didn't work, you didn't pull the workers.
iyasq8
Profile Joined December 2012
113 Posts
May 02 2013 23:51 GMT
#52
in zvz the only way to solve muta vs muta is to change the physics of the mutas( how 1 muta difference is huge) thats the only reason why muta vs is not fun right now because in many cases a player gets lucky with having the first shot or having a mis rally and that is game ending.
Piece
Extenz
Profile Joined October 2011
Italy822 Posts
May 02 2013 23:52 GMT
#53
As a protoss dealing with oracles with the horrible dps of stalkers is already hard enough the acceleration buff is annoying rly -.- and proxy stargates do give a huge advantage or win the game if they receive no response.
Greendotz
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2053 Posts
May 02 2013 23:52 GMT
#54
Hmm, disappointing. I was expecting more Terran tears about the Oracle, ah well, there's still time I guess. Now that Burrow is the same cost as warpgate tech/con-shell upgrades it's practically too cheap not to get at tier one. Could potentially make the 1 gate expand ill-advisable in PvZ.

I think there's a good chance the zerg buffs will make the next patch. I somewhat doubt the Oracle will retain its speed and acceleration increase but as a Protoss player I hope at least one of them makes the cut.
suicideyear
Profile Joined December 2012
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
May 02 2013 23:54 GMT
#55
oracles are already stupid
)))____◎◎◎◎█████
iyasq8
Profile Joined December 2012
113 Posts
May 02 2013 23:54 GMT
#56
i hate how blizzard is concentrating so much on how the spectator enjoys the match rather the ones playing it
Piece
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
May 02 2013 23:55 GMT
#57
On May 03 2013 08:27 nGBeast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2013 08:15 blade55555 wrote:
On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:
On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change


It's called a beta test for a reason.


To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through



And 99% of the time the game is better off because we don't let random sc2 players tell us what is good and bad

*points to WoL*
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8240 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-02 23:57:41
May 02 2013 23:56 GMT
#58
On May 03 2013 08:44 Cloak wrote:
The Corruptor should be the one with +bio. Theoretically Corruptors should just be a better unit, but that'd destroy balance.

How? Nothing else in the air is a bio unit but Zerg air.

If you had Corruptors in ZvZ in addition to Mutas, the fight would theoretically swing in favour with the person who has Corruptors right?
Greendotz
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2053 Posts
May 02 2013 23:57 GMT
#59
On May 03 2013 08:44 Cloak wrote:
The Corruptor should be the one with +bio. Theoretically Corruptors should just be a better unit, but that'd destroy balance.

I think the whole point about the spore buff is to give a chance to players who go for ground armies. If you buff corrupter's you still have to build a spire, and then it'll just go from muta ball V muta ball to muta-corrupter ball V muta-corrupter ball. It doesn't solve anything.
Madera
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden2672 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-03 08:13:45
May 02 2013 23:58 GMT
#60
On May 03 2013 08:48 BaaL` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2013 08:44 Xequecal wrote:
On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote:
Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.

Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.


Open on a Reaper and you get free scouting of anything the Protoss is doing. It does require you to infer some things based on unit/probe/building count to detect proxies, but you get to see their whole base whenever your want for the first 6 minutes of the game at least.


If you open reaper you can't have 6 marines in time for proxy oracle, especially with added speed (unless maybe if you don't get a CC, which is pretty much auto-loss).

I guess the new standard TvP will be barracks, e-bay, then CC, then more barracks and/or factory. At least when you scout double gas, which honestly is such a sick opening for P I don't know why you would ever go 1 gas vs Terran.

This is true. There is no such thing as a guaranteed full base scout when opening reaper. If the Protoss is good with zoning your reaper out with his stalker and MSC it can be hard to get a proper scout off. You could scout 2 gas with 2 probes in each and assume he's going to expo but you can't know if he puts a third in after your reaper gets chased away. He might throw up the stargate after his nexus or he proxied it somewhere on the map. Counting pylons isn't always reliable but is generally the best way to know if it's proxied or not and the fastest versions of it is extremely tight to hold if you open reaper.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 31 32 33 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 3
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 236
StarCraft: Brood War
Aegong 131
NaDa 42
HiyA 39
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1315
Counter-Strike
fl0m2312
flusha406
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox1005
Mew2King351
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor191
Other Games
tarik_tv21266
gofns12206
summit1g7907
Grubby3154
shahzam416
JimRising 365
ViBE176
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2321
BasetradeTV27
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 56
• HeavenSC 38
• StrangeGG 36
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 73
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
FEL
8h 28m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
13h 28m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
17h 28m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.