EPT[G] Roach-Ling Revisited: Zerg vs Terran (HotS) - Page 6
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ultrakiss
97 Posts
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 27 2013 11:24 Ninjury_J wrote: Tang, are you modifying to build to pool first, or leaving it as is? I'm going to leave it as is, HotS is still developing and I'm working on ZvP next. If hatch-first ever becomes a long-forgotten Zerg dream, I'll definitely modify the build. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
 but only 2 days til release :D The ZvP one will be released asap, it's mostly done but I just want to wait to see any new changes. Does anyone know if beta replays will be accessible after release? | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On February 27 2013 10:52 TangSC wrote: With hatch-first, you auto-lose at least 3-5 Drones if he does proxy reapers, and if he gets a bunker at expansion it's worse. I think a 15 Pool/15Hatch with a comparable gas timing (17/18) will defend reasonably well though, and not delay your push long. I agree, I've found 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool to be better on large maps and worse on small maps because of the combined risk of Proxy Reapers and 11/11, and as evidence you can watch Stephano's MLG performance as he executed the 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool build for Roach/Burrow rushes exclusively and lost dramatically to Proxy Reapers and 11/11. The risk of Proxy Reapers to 15/16/15 is probably too great on small maps, I've tried 13 Scout, 14 Pool, 16 Hatch, 15 Gas to good effect and you can soft counter any Engineering Bay blocks from Barracks Expand with a Proxy Hatch in their main. I really don't think the contortions you have to go to fend off a Reaper is worth the better economic set up unless you know your opponent's prefer CC first. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 17 2013 17:45 MoonCricket wrote: I agree, I've found 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool to be better on large maps and worse on small maps because of the combined risk of Proxy Reapers and 11/11, and as evidence you can watch Stephano's MLG performance as he executed the 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool build for Roach/Burrow rushes exclusively and lost dramatically to Proxy Reapers and 11/11. The risk of Proxy Reapers to 15/16/15 is probably too great on small maps, I've tried 13 Scout, 14 Pool, 16 Hatch, 15 Gas to good effect and you can soft counter any Engineering Bay blocks from Barracks Expand with a Proxy Hatch in their main. I've been leaning towards 15Pool / 15 Gas / 17 Hatch on smaller maps, because you can build your queen on 16, then overlord, then 3 sets of Lings. When you queen pops you can move to expansion with it and 6 lings and you're golden. Then you can drone, get your 2nd queen, and have the option of building Speedlings with your first inject to go for 14 Speedling pressure around 5:30. It also follows into the 8 Roach/Speedling timing very well. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7434 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:25 TangSC wrote: I've been leaning towards 15Pool / 15 Gas / 17 Hatch on smaller maps, because you can build your queen on 16, then overlord, then 3 sets of Lings. When you queen pops you can move to expansion with it and 6 lings and you're golden. Then you can drone, get your 2nd queen, and have the option of building Speedlings with your first inject to go for 14 Speedling pressure around 5:30. It also follows into the 8 Roach/Speedling timing very well. could you write a more detailed build order for this? Would be of great help. Thank you. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:29 neoghaleon55 wrote: could you write a more detailed build order for this? Would be of great help. Thank you. 15pool 15gas 17hatch 16queen 18overlord 18-21 Lings 21Queen 23Overlord Drones until inject finishes 4xSets of Lings with first inject (8 + the initial 6 = 14 Speedlings to pressure). Then keep droning while you poke. | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
I imagine it would do little damage and leave me behind compared to standard play. Are there any BO losses I should take in consideration? Is this a blind build or should I abort it in some cases? If so, what scouting information should I get? Thx. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 18 2013 11:20 Azoryen wrote: How does this build do against someone going for tanks first (no mines, no hellions) or just a bunch of marines after 1raxFE? I imagine it would do little damage and leave me behind compared to standard play. Are there any BO losses I should take in consideration? Is this a blind build or should I abort it in some cases? If so, what scouting information should I get? Thx. Well in WoL it used to be that if Terran went for siege tanks, they'd be behind economically because they'd have to stay on one base for a while and research the tech - and if you got in there at 7:15 you'd often still win because they would have just 1 tank unsieged. Now, with Widow Mines and already-upgraded tanks, it's harder to deal game-ending damage with this build; they can have 2 tanks sieged behind the depots and SCVs pulled to repair. In that scenario, it's best just to power Drones from 50-60 supply and get your third started by 7:15, then just keep macroing. I wouldn't say it's a build order loss, because you do still get a good amount of time to safely power Drones after the attack, but if you make the 8 Roaches and 12-16 Zerglings, and do absolutely no damage, you will have to cut a few corners to stay even. If I did no damage early on, I would most often Drone to a fully-saturated 3 bases with at least 4 gas (60-70 Drones) without producing any units (just relying on the already-build Roach/Ling to hold the Xel / defend). You may die to some sort of early 2base all-in, but it's a risk you have to take when your aggression is completely shut down. I don't think this build needs to be aborted based on scouting information, but you may decide only to make like 4-5 Roaches and a few Speedlings to go for a "fake", which allows for a faster transition. It's something I've done quite often when matched against the same opponent. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 20 2013 03:34 Ninjury_J wrote: So do you still advocate the 15 hatch version in the OP, or the 15 pool version above? Hatch-first is still viable against reapers, especially with gas before pool, so I lean towards hatch-first in most of my games. Both versions work pretty well though. | ||
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Chris2124
Scotland4 Posts
Do you know how the economy is compared to the standard 4 Queen opening? How far behind does it set you if, in the unlikely scenario, you don't get much any damage done? | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 21 2013 16:26 Chris2124 wrote: Been using this build (hatch-first) with great success recently. Doesn't fair too well against lots of rax (no reaper/hellion) from my experience, but that can be scouted before getting all the roaches. Do you know how the economy is compared to the standard 4 Queen opening? How far behind does it set you if, in the unlikely scenario, you don't get much any damage done? Yeah if they go for a 1Rax FE into 3 Barracks walling their natural, it's tough to break in. Those Barracks builds aren't ideal, but luckily they're rare and map-specific. And, as you mention, you can scout with the first set of Lings you build. You're pretty delayed compared to a standard 4 Queen opening. You sit on 22~ Drones until about 7:00. 4 Queen openings let you reach full 2-base saturation about a minute earlier than this build I would suspect, though I don't have any specific numbers on the difference between the two builds. | ||
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