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Roach-Ling Revisited: Zerg vs Terran (HotS)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZhDcj1F.jpg)
Drawn-Out and Overblown Introduction to HotS Guides:+ Show Spoiler +I will be releasing at least 6 new Zerg guides to serve as a starting point/reference for Zerg players making the transition to Heart of the Swarm. I considered releasing one giant guide to avoid clutter of the TL forum, but as it grew larger it made more sense to structure the guides individually. To put it in a way we can all understand, the formatting of such a large guide was starting to look like a Marauder, and it's better to fight a Marauder with a few sets of Zerglings rather than one lone Roach. In fact, it will be helpful to continue thinking of these guides like Zerglings: they're compact, vicious, and if you learn how to use them, you will &^$%ing maul people. You might ask why you should read a guide from me, what could I possibly offer that a professional like Day9 or Apollo can't? And I would say nothing except a different way of looking at things. We've all experienced SC2 differently - we've watched, played, read, studied, dare I say LIVED StarCraft through completely different eyes. I happen to have Swarm eyes: The side-effects of Swarm eyes are well-documented, as all you brothers and sisters of the Swarm know. These include adrenal rushes (something to do with our glands), rapid-motion-syndrome (something to do with our hands), and an aggressive mentality (stepping where our opponent stands). Now don't get me wrong - I respect my opponent, I think he or she is probably a great person, but I want all of their units on a stretcher - or more accurately still, I want their units to be eaten alive by my units, boosting their metabolism and making them stronger and faster, with hearts beating like hammers and claws dripping with of the blood of the fallen. I want my units to tear off the heads of SCVs and mount them on spikes, and mount the heads of Probes above the fireplace. When they're not injecting, I want Queens to throw darts at pictures of Marines and aim right for the groin. I want every inch of the map covered in creep, and I want to neural parasite an opponent's worker and build a Nexus or Command center just so I can produce workers and kill them until the map is mined out of resources. I have not played the HotS campaign yet, but I hope it ends with the annihilation of the Protoss and Terran races, and I hope creep connects all the planets in a way that spells "All your bases are belonging to the Swarm" when looked at from space or a neighboring galaxy. . . . . If this little exaggeration of my SC2 mindset hasn't persuaded you to read these guides, perhaps my experience in the community will. I have written and produced over 200 works of strategy content between tutorial videos and TeamLiquid guides. Some have been great contributions, some have been pretty meager and uninformative, but I've learned a lot from both the positive and negative feedback, and I've put in my time so to speak. I'm not a professional gamer, but as they say, "those that can't do... teach" and that's really what I aim to do. My number one goal in producing these guides is to help readers improve, increasing the collective learning curve. The aggressive-themed strategies and builds that I've chosen are simply the cover of a much more deep and interesting book on Zerg mechanics and execution; many of the key points that are emphasized and repeated throughout the guides are universal skills that apply to other styles as well. Specific styles will evolve and change throughout the expansion as new units become more familiar, but the core fundamentals won't be as affected. In short, while this introduction is rather long and exaggerated, the content of the guides will be concise and to-the-point. You can be sure that emphasized points are based on years of study, extensive coaching experience, genuine interest in your improvement, and appreciation for the time you've taken to read. PS. Everyone should view this fantastic Youtube Video on ESports Concept:+ Show Spoiler +Early Roach aggression in ZvT is a frequently used tactic that will become even stronger in HotS, and the reasons aren't surprising: 1) Roaches have always been good against Hellions, and Terran players still open with Hellions/Hellbats often.
2) Reaper openings have made a reappearance in HotS, and Roaches hold this type of aggression well.
3) The opportunity to counter-attack presents you with unique advantages, ie. map control that frees you to drone/tech/expand.
4) You can now research burrow from your Hatchery, which is a huge boost that we'll address later.
5) Once you get over 6 Roaches, focus-firing of buildings and SCVs become much easier. Build:+ Show Spoiler +Note that unmarked gains in Supply are Drones. 9Overlord![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lERqtxX.jpg) Consensus shows 9OL is generally preferred to other options. Get in the habit of rallying every Overlord that you produce immediately ( fundamental mechanic), and consider even hotkeying your first two Overlords to practice moving between control groups that you might not usually use until later in the game (i.e. 2 and 3, or 6 and 7). ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 15Hatchery ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2opJer5.jpg) As soon as your Hatchery is started, set the rally points and add it to your control group (ie. if your main Hatchery is control group 4, click the expansion Hatchery hold Shift and press 4). The concept of adding units/buildings to already-existing control groups is a fundamental mechanic - if you repeat it, it becomes second nature and saves time. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 16Gas![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QA5JSeS.jpg) Be conscious of the Drones you choose to build structures. For example, pick a Drone that is close to the gas where you're constructing. If you're pulling a Drone off mining to do this, make sure you don't touch your double-mining close patches! ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 15Pool ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/77H5HCf.jpg) Pull your Drone from a patch that's close to where you're building the Pool. Do it in advance (180~ minerals) so that you can produce it right when you reach 200 minerals. Sometimes rallying a constructing Drone to the location where you're planning to build a structure can time out correctly, but don't do it everytime to the point where structures get built late. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 14-17 Drones![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uckw4bB.jpg) Get in the habit of rallying these Drones to patches that are single-mining, and try to make sure they "stick" to double-mining the desired patches. Economy management is easier in HotS than in WoL, but that doesn't mean you can't squeeze out small advantages by ensuring all Drones mine right away instead of bouncing around. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 17Overlord ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3ISKOi0.jpg) Rally this Overlord, like every other Overlord, right away, ideally you want to rally to locations that are safe from Marines and will let you see drops coming later in the game. For lower level players, it's even ok to safely rally them between your main and expansion, but it's important to develop the habit of rallying it somewhere. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 19Queenx2 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0tc7PRn.jpg) You want to construct these Queens at the same time so you can inject at the same time. A tip to players who hotkey both Queens in the same control group: wait just a second or two before injecting when the Queens first spawn (Inject with 26-27 Energy). Otherwise you'll occasionally have that annoying thing happen where say your main Queen has 24 energy and your expansion Queen has 25, and your expansion Queen runs up to the main to inject and the rotation gets messed up. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 28 Roach Warren![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2a9rqE6.jpg) By the time you're producing this Roach Warren, your main should be optimally saturated - 16 Drones, double-mining every patch. Once you reach 16 Drones in the main, rally both Hatcheries to your expansion, and choose the 17th Drone produced in the main to produce your Warren at 28 (that way you don't touch that optimal saturation in the main). ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 28 Speed or Burrow ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GVaA4wn.jpg) Either upgrade will finish before your Roaches arrive at your Opponent's base. If you get Zergling Speed, you'll plan to build some Zerglings after 44 Supply to add to the strength of your Roach push (Speedlings are so fast that they'll catch up to the Roaches). If you plan on getting both upgrades, opt for Speed before Burrow. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 28 Overlordx2 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Th1OQwC.jpg) Both Overlords rallied to give more aerial map vision. Remove Drones from geyser after you reach 300 gas total mined, unless you plan on getting both Burrow and Speed in which case you need 400. Burrow is usually always a good investment, because you can delay his expansion by burrowing where the Command Center would go, and you can also burrow your Drones back at home if he comes in with Banshees, Hellions, or other nasties. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 28-44 Roaches ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hW8LJxk.jpg) Should have 600 Minerals/200Gas to make 8 Roaches. Hotkey all Roach Eggs immediately! Make sure you're de-selecting any excess Larva so that you're Hotkeying only the Roaches. When you build the Overlords on 44, you should rally them somewhere right away and make sure they're NOT part of the Roach control group. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 44 Overlordx2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NsRbUHW.jpg) Speedlings Rallied to Roaches. It's a good idea to keep your Speedlings on a separate control group from your Roaches, though most of the micro is done with the Roaches (this will be explained in the "Execution" section). ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 52~ Switch to Drones![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/16Zumt4.jpg) Now you don't have to switch to Drones, you can produce Speedlings off 22~ Drones on 2 Hatcheries to apply additional pressure. Most times it is recommended that you start the transition at 52, as you can optimize the timing better if you keep the transition consistent. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Build InAShell: Fast Expand --> Gas/Pool --> Drones/Queens --> 28 Supply Warren --> Upgrade (Speed/Burrow) 2x Overlord --> 28-44 Supply Build 8 Roaches to Defend or Pressure, 2xOverlords at 44 --> Ling or Drone Production + Transition Quick Review: 15Hatchery, 16Gas, 15Pool, 17 Overlord, 19 Queenx2, 28 Roach Warren, 28 Upgrade (Burrow or Speed), 28-44 Roaches, 44Overlordx2, 44-52 Drones or Lings (Depending on whether you get Burrow or Speed). Execution:+ Show Spoiler +The two most important mechanics addressed so far (which must never be undervalued) are Overlord-Rallying and Shift-Adding to Control Groups. These are paramount, and if you don't understand either, re-read the Build section or ask for clarification in the comments below. Here are some other valuable tips and notes on Execution: ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Multitasking Macro/Micro:I think a common misconception is that macro is vastly more important than micro, but it's important to remember one of the primary functions of good macro: to give you more time to manage your actual army! The majority of the time if your army is engaging, you should pay more attention to your forces than your base. That's why it's so important to work on your keyboard macro-mechanics so that while you engage, you continue producing units and adding them to the control group. The Roach/Ling ZvT opening is amazing for improving your control-grouping mechanics because it forces you to look away from your base while maintaining production, and you should take advantage of this efficient way to practice and improve. When you produce your first 8 Roaches, you de-select excess Larva and add to a control group (Group 2). If you decide to produce Speedlings to reinforce, these should be added to a separate control group (Group 1). This way you can go between 1 and 2 to micro your Speedlings and Roaches, and you're improving the management of multiple army control groups, a skill crucial for the later stages of the game with Infestors, Broodlords, etc. Researching Burrow at Hatchery means you can now have Burrow for your 7:15 Roach timing! This is well before Turrets and Ravens, so your opponent will have to use scans to detect. Also, Roaches regenerate HP pretty quickly while Burrowed, so if you're burrowing your weakened Roaches you can keep them alive for much longer. Even at an impenetrable wall of Depot/Bunker/SCVs, combining Burrow micro with SCV Focus-Firing will net you a LOT of worker kills. Then, when you're on the defensive against Hellions, Hellbats, or Banshees, you can burrow your Drones and Queens! It is an incredible benefit both for attacking and defending. The Roach/Burrow opening is also great for improving casting-mechanics. Always set your first 8 Roaches in the same control group that you will later use for casters like Infestors (for me, it's 2). SO many players struggle with Infestor control, because having a separate control group for them makes it difficult to manage, but training this Roach/Burrow tactic can help you become accustomed to using casting units in this way. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Set Shift-Rallies:If you're on the offensive, quick reinforcements can decide whether you win a game, but a bit of a dilemma occurs because you want to spend as little time as possible organizing these reinforcements, and instead focus on your main army. It is amazingly helpful to shift-add every egg you produce to the respective control group, but it's impractical to think anyone is capable of doing this 100% of the time - it's easy to forget in the heat of battle, but nevertheless you need to get those reinforcements, so how do we fix this? One common, but not ideal, method is rallying to your opponent's base, or just outside. But then you risk your units running in un-hotkeyed, and it's a huge problem when you retreat but forget to reset the rally. Another method is to rally onto a unit, like a Roach, which makes sense because then all reinforcements will run straight to that Roach. The problem here is if that Roach dies, you've lost the rally point, so reinforcements will just sit idle at each Hatchery unless you reset the rally point. So I advise using the Shift-Rally method. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fg2F5Pw.jpg) You set rally points to a ground location first, hold Shift and then right-click a Roach. The Shift-rally will follow the Roach, but if that Roach does, the Hatcheries are still rallied to the first location. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ON5xAIc.jpg) This makes things a lot easier because units won't "suicide" into your opponent's base because of a bad rally-point, and you won't have rally-points reset to idle at the Hatcheries either. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gLEXn08.jpg) ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Macro Catch-up Mode:There is no one out there with perfect macro and multitasking, and there's no shame in missing injects or floating resources when you're being active with your units. But one way we can offset imperfection multitasking is to have a planned "Catchup-Up mode." By Catch-Up. I mean that when you fall behind in macro, you should have quick and clear steps laid out to get back on track fast. We may all have different opinions on what to prioritize, but make yourself a mental checklist like this: 1) Spend Larva - The #1 reason that Zerg players float resources is because they sit for too long with more than three Larva. If you can't spend Larva during an engagement, make sure it's the first thing you do afterwards. Tip: When using Larva, avoid rapidly pressing the unit-key (Z, D, R, V etc), and instead hold down that key. If you're in even more of a rush to spend lots of Larva, you can hold down the key AND left-click with your mouse. 2) Over-Produce Overlords - This goes hand-in-hand with Larva, but it's an important point. If you get blocked or minerals are really piling up, it's usually safe - even smart - to dump more-than-usual minerals into Overlords. Imagine a scenario: You're done building Drones on a well-saturated three-base economy, so you're producing LOTS of Roaches and Zerglings, but you get supply blocked with 4 Larva at the main, the natural, and the third that you can't spend on units. This is a great time to build some extra Overlords, not only because you'll need extra supply soon anyway, but also because you can spend some of that Larva. Tip: Instead of selecting all 4 Hatcheries and pressing the "v" key 6 times, select each Hatchery and build 2 Overlords at each - ensuring each Hatchery is below 3 Larva and still producing more. 3) Hit Injects - I know you're sarcastically thinking "gee thanks for the tip, I had no idea I was supposed to inject", but when things slip, getting your inject-cycle back on track is supremely important. Extra energy can be used to spread creep or inject at your macro Hatcheries. Tip: Swap Queens with excess energy to the bases with macro Hatcheries. There's no point sitting with a 25 Energy Queen in the main and a 75 Energy Queen at the third - swap them so you can spend that excess energy double-injecting the main + macro hatch. 4) Macro-Hatcheries - If you've done the above steps and you're still sitting with 1-2k minerals, start building Macro-Hatcheries. If at any point it starts to look like you won't need the extra production, you can cancel them, losing only 75 Minerals - there have been very few (if any) games in which the reason I've lost is because I built too many macro Hatcheries. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ General Notes on Style/Scouting/Variations:You need a total of 300 gas (100 for upgrade, 200 for Roaches) to execute this attack. No matter what weird shenanigans happen early game (Expansion blocked by SCV-Building, Early 2-Rax pressure, etc.), you should try to aim for 300 gas mined and 22~ Drones with 2 Queens. IE. If you lose Drones or Queens early on, rebuild them. Don't cut your gas at 250 and go for a 6-Roach push off a 16-Drone economy! Just rebuild those Drones, get that 300 total gas, and hit a later timing with the same units - your opponent will be delayed too. There are many ways to alter this opening to suit your particular style: To play an extra safe opening style: Send a Drone scout between 10 and 14 Supply before you start your expansion, cut Drones before the Pool finishes (16-17) and produce 4-6 Zerglings (or even more if pressed) as soon as the Pool is done. A Spinecrawler is also optional when the expansion finishes. If you are under significant early Marine pressure, you should remove Drones from gas. Tip: To players who struggle against 2-Rax, remember that keeping Drones alive is vastly more important than mining time. Pull more/all your workers to defend, at least until you can get a Spinecrawler or two places in range of his Bunkers. To play a moderately safe style, send a Drone scout at least to the proxy-locations and then your closer Xel-Naga. When the Pool finishes, just build 1 Set of Lings to kill any single Marine/SCV on the map, as well as hold each Xel. The benefit of holding the Xel-Nagas as your Roaches come out is that he may not see your units until later. To play a greedy style: The only scary timings that hit before Roaches come out involve 2-Barracks. If your first Overlord scouts an Expansion or a Gas Refinery, you shouldn't build any Zerglings. Defending with just Queens, you can survive 1-Rax pressure without producing any Zerglings most times, which lets you hit at the earliest time with your Roaches. After your Warren (28) is the time you should build a set of Lings to take the Xel-Nagas. (My preference). Example: See game against "AlwaysLose" in the "Proof" section of this guide. To play this style more passively, you can delay your gas (15Hatch, 16Pool, 18Gas) and delay your warren (32~). Produce 4-6 Roaches instead and aim for a faster third. If you have some Speedlings, you can poke with your 4-6 Roaches - if you don't research speed and neglect Zerglings, you'll want to keep your Roaches back. This style lends itself better to producing a 3rd/4th Queen much earlier, as you'll want to connect your 3rd. Example: See game against "Barcode Terran" in the "Proof" section of this guide. Proof:+ Show Spoiler +Support:+ Show Spoiler +Website: TangStarcraft [ http://www.TangStarcraft.com ]- I post all videos, guides, and articles on my website - signing up and posting a comment/question is basically like giving me a high-five, and I sincerely appreciate it. Reddit: TangSC [ Reddit Link: Roach-Ling Revisited (ZvT) ]- A supportive comment + upvote = a very happy Tang. Some members of the Reddit community can be quite critical and down-vote before reading, and I can't tell you how much I value your support on this forum. Twitter: TangSC2 [ http://www.twitter.com/TangSC2 ]- Twitter will notify you when I stream. I always read tweets and appreciate re-tweets! Twitch: TangSC [ http://www.twitch.tv/TangSC ]- Please tune in, follow, ask questions, and help spread the word! You may even win some "Tang Points!" TangSC Coaching Testimonial Page: [ http://tangstarcraft.com/?page_id=5 ]- If you've had a coaching from me, please contribute to my reviews/testimonials! Feedback:+ Show Spoiler +You're welcome to participate in these feedback Polls, as your advice/recommendations/criticisms can help me to produce better content. Poll: What did you like most about this guide?Content/Focus Points (24) 41% Writing Style/Organization (20) 34% Structure/Layout (9) 16% Audio/Visual Resources (3) 5% This is a poor guide with many issues (Please explain in comments) (2) 3% 58 total votes Your vote: What did you like most about this guide? (Vote): Structure/Layout (Vote): Content/Focus Points (Vote): Audio/Visual Resources (Vote): Writing Style/Organization (Vote): This is a poor guide with many issues (Please explain in comments)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Poll: What did you dislike most about this guide?I cannot find criticism of the guide. (32) 86% Structure/Layout (2) 5% Content/Focus Points (2) 5% Writing Style/Organization (1) 3% Audio/Visual Resources (0) 0% 37 total votes Your vote: What did you dislike most about this guide? (Vote): Structure/Layout (Vote): Content/Focus Points (Vote): Audio/Visual Resources (Vote): Writing Style/Organization (Vote): I cannot find criticism of the guide.
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Great post. Answering the poll is a bit tricky because I want to choose two or even more options. I guess I will go with organization overall.
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The Shift-Rally just blew my mind O_o Thanks! (btw. im Terran)
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tang is a really nice guy and he have helped me ALOT, his work is quality and the way he explain things just make sc2 look so easy.. as far as i am concerned he is one of those people who doesnt get the attention they deserve. love to clark<3
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Awesome in depth guide man, definitely one of the best coaches out there!
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Trying this build this afternoon. I left feedback in the blog post - long story short, I'm impressed with the guide quality.
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I've been doing this myself (Without burrow) to great success.
Nice to see a guide written up for it. It's very effective. I've been pushing with ~10 roaches, and if I almost kill him, I'll just move out with ~30 speed roaches to finish him off. If not, I transition into roach/hydra.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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What happens when your opponent goes mech and has atleast one tank (inaccessible) and 6-8 hellions when you show up? or if counter attacks with those hellions. Also, is there anything specific for you to scout? And if so is there any particular reaction you suggest?
EDIT: On February 04 2013 07:21 Existor wrote:Another good thread without banner? Thats not good + Show Spoiler +
did you just make this?! (its a burrowed ling and roach, its perfect)
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This is simply a roach ling push that could be done in wol as well... Nothing Hots specific, nothing on the late game things. The guide would be better if you added those things.
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On February 04 2013 07:23 Natalya wrote: This is simply a roach ling push that could be done in wol as well... Nothing Hots specific, nothing on the late game things. The guide would be better if you added those things. I plan on releasing more guides to discuss those mid/late game transitions for ZvT (and the other races). There is some HotS specific content in the tutorial video (which discusses reapers/hellbat drops/widow mines), as well as the hatchery-burrow suggestion.
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Really great guide. For the rallying however, I came up with this method (not sure if somebody already mentioned it). Basically instead of shift rallying like you, I hold shift and rally them on a bunch of roaches. That way, it's pretty hard to have reinforcement idle at your base while still having every unit possible on the field.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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On February 04 2013 07:23 Unsane wrote: What happens when your opponent goes mech and has atleast one tank (inaccessible) and 6-8 hellions when you show up? or if counter attacks with those hellions. Also, is there anything specific for you to scout? And if so is there any particular reaction you suggest? Counter-attacks can be cleaned up with Speedlings/Queens, and any build in which your opponent holds his main (like a tank-mech opening) will mean you gain complete map control and freedom to take a third and Drone harder-than-usual. It's an equalizing situation, so the sooner you transition into macro the better. If I thought there was a good chance my opponent wasn't going for an expansion before 7:15, I'd probably cut lings early (50~ supply) and Drone to 60, then get the third / 2 gas / double upgrades / lair / etc. Just make sure you hold those Xel-Naga and stay well ahead of supply so that you're safe to Drone hard.
In terms of dealing with mid-game mech, well, you have that Roach warren my advice is play it similar to ZvP Roach max, 4 hatcheries, 60+ Drones, lots of aggression. You can take your 4th while you pressure with your 1/1 Speed timing, and aim for 7-8 Hatcheries off a 4-base economy with crazy Roach/Ling production. Some approach this situation with faster tech Broodlords, but I have a lot of fun with Roaches against mech.
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Good answer. How about fast hellbats? Im sure you've encountered that quite a few times. And subsequently how about hellbat drops?
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On February 04 2013 07:44 Unsane wrote: Good answer. How about fast hellbats? Im sure you've encountered that quite a few times. And subsequently how about hellbat drops? So far it's working really well against hellbats/drops, but one mistake I've been making is neglecting to realize how powerful a medivac full of hellbats is lol it's not like in WoL where they drop 4 hellions and you're fine with 2-3 Roaches.
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Reading this guide and watching the replays makes the build look so easy, and it is. Great build Tang. Thanks for the help with the guide!!!
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Although the shift method probably works well, I don't see how it is easier than just hotkeying eggs right away. If you manage to forget hotkeying the eggs, you're probably going to forget shiftrallying them either.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Another tip regarding adding to groups.
Add alternative hotkey for shift+1, shift+2, etc (akka Add to group) - Alt+1, Alt+2, etc.
With big finger it's a lot easier to add to groups. Also holding ALT shows all health-bars in damaged mode. And ALT+grid hotkey scheme gives you "second keyboard" - ALT+Q, ALT+W, ALT+E, etc, which can be a lot commands, including alternative hotkeys for commands which is hard to hit sometimes.
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On February 04 2013 09:09 Henk wrote: Although the shift method probably works well, I don't see how it is easier than just hotkeying eggs right away. If you manage to forget hotkeying the eggs, you're probably going to forget shiftrallying them either. Well you can shift-rally the Hatchery rally points, so all future units are shift-rallied onto that unit.
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Really nice, as usual.
What do you favour, pure Roach with burrow? Roach/lings? Or getting both speed and burrow? IMO burrowing roaches makes more sense if you can reinforce with lings. As someone who's done a lot of Roach/Ling attacks in WoL, this attack tends to be over when roaches die. With burrow... it's basically roach/ling with immortal roaches.
Then again it would really both delay the attack, and put more pressure on you to do some damage. With the tank buff, the timing window is already really short in HotS.
Really looking forward to the other ones by the way.
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On February 04 2013 10:15 MilesTeg wrote: Really nice, as usual.
What do you favour, pure Roach with burrow? Roach/lings? Or getting both speed and burrow? IMO burrowing roaches makes more sense if you can reinforce with lings. As someone who's done a lot of Roach/Ling attacks in WoL, this attack tends to be over when roaches die. With burrow... it's basically roach/ling with immortal roaches.
Then again it would really both delay the attack, and put more pressure on you to do some damage. With the tank buff, the timing window is already really short in HotS.
Really looking forward to the other ones by the way. I prefer getting either burrow OR speed. . .getting both upgrades is an option, but as you mention it delays your attack which can give Terran enough time to get tech out.
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I've been going for a fairly similar Roach opening, and it works very nicely in random games, since as you said most players are going for hellion/hellbat/reaper openers.
But the majority of my ZvT games are against a practice partner who is smart to my tricks. He found something that seems to be a fairly appropriate response, somewhat similar to what the opponents in your video tried against you, but without "putting all their eggs in one basket".
So if I'm going for one of the early Burrow builds, rather than a ling opener, the game plays out like this... As soon as I reach the point where the rallied Roaches are heading to the enemy base, as the Roaches are halfway across the map, a dropship harass 1 widow mine and some marines comes at both my main and my natural. This is problematic because the Marines target my Queens primarily, and they are the main units left back at the base who can combat the Widow Mines, even more of an issue because the Burrow upgrade caused a sacrifice to the amount of Queens at this point of the game.
Also there's no mobile detection this early, so I've found that I have to drop a Spore at each base just to be able to detect the Widows without my economy being screwed, and hope the Queens don't take too much damage (trying to use Burrow for their advantage) and can hold things off until more units arrive. But given the amount of Queens is sacrificed, usually either the main or natural will be in a bit of trouble.
Now on the Terran side of the field, in your videos they were ill-prepared. But against my partner, as soon as I reach his base, typically a siege tank has just finished producing and is going in to siege mode. Between this, and a couple marines, any harass on his wall is mostly impossible, as that one tank is enough to shut down 7 Roaches (the typical amount I go for), burrow doesn't help too much in this situation as 1 Scan is enough to take out enough roaches. So I'm left with the only option of trying to delay his Natural.
After this sort of opening, I'm not sure it's worth the investment for the Burrow upgrade. This build feels like a pretty strong counter to Burrow opener. I feel much more secure at my main base with a typical opener with more Queen support. But, the potentially bigger problem, after the early scout there is there's no way to differentiate this type of opener from the typical Terran openers shown in your video.
Any advice for getting a Roach + Burrow opener that isn't so easily shut down by this type of Terran opener, which doesn't require much investment by the Terran player? Or should I just face it that early Burrow isn't worth the investment on this Terran opener? Because at the moment, it seems like if I don't get the initial aggression off with the Roaches, the Burrow investment was a waste so early, and could have came later in the game.
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Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell.
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On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell.
Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build.
Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense.
And just to clarify, it's not that his opener puts me so far behind as the problem. The main issue is going early Burrow doesn't actually pay off. It seems better to just go for Queens/Lings as that will help defend the early drop better.
Because as it stands, if going for the early burrow option, either I have to stay back with the roaches to help defend (which loses the advantage of researching Burrow so early) or if I go for Roach aggression, as mentioned the Tank usually is going in to siege mode right as the Roaches reach the base, leaving the Roaches only delaying the natural.
The backbone of his opener vs the early Burrow strat is A) the 2 early Widows to exploit no early detection w/o making spores at both bases as a security blanket, B) the drop timing being exactly around the time Roaches are mid-map if going for early aggression, C) the Tank finishing right as Roaches are approaching, and D) the Marines/Dropship being able to exploit not having as many Queens to make the harass a little harder to deal with.
So mostly the question is, is it worth the early Burrow for the harass being slightly harder to deal with, for only delaying the expansion? I'm not so sure.
Seems the opener w/o rushing to Burrow may be more ideal, as lings and ling speed can help get rid of the marines and the extra queens can handle the Widows, and then can transition in to harassing the Terran natural. Just wondering if I'm missing anything that may make the early burrow a bit more useful, as this opener seems to hold off the Roach harass pretty successfully and make the early burrow mostly insignificant.
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On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. And just to clarify, it's not that his opener puts me so far behind as the problem. The main issue is going early Burrow doesn't actually pay off. It seems better to just go for Queens/Lings as that will help defend the early drop better. Because as it stands, if going for the early burrow option, either I have to stay back with the roaches to help defend (which loses the advantage of researching Burrow so early) or if I go for Roach aggression, as mentioned the Tank usually is going in to siege mode right as the Roaches reach the base, leaving the Roaches only delaying the natural. The backbone of his opener vs the early Burrow strat is A) the 2 early Widows to exploit no early detection w/o making spores at both bases as a security blanket, B) the drop timing being exactly around the time Roaches are mid-map if going for early aggression, C) the Tank finishing right as Roaches are approaching, and D) the Marines/Dropship being able to exploit not having as many Queens to make the harass a little harder to deal with. So mostly the question is, is it worth the early Burrow for the harass being slightly harder to deal with, for only delaying the expansion? I'm not so sure. Seems the opener w/o rushing to Burrow may be more ideal, as lings and ling speed can help get rid of the marines and the extra queens can handle the Widows, and then can transition in to harassing the Terran natural. Just wondering if I'm missing anything that may make the early burrow a bit more useful, as this opener seems to hold off the Roach harass pretty successfully and make the early burrow mostly insignificant.
DRG does a roach push around the same time with 10 roaches. You take the gas at 18, then overlord at 17 and proceed as normal. 3 overlords on 28 then roaches.
I've had more success with it than Tang's build. All the terrans I play overreact to the early gas, so you just kind of end up being even.
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There seems to be alot of mass reaper and battle hellion builds going around right now. Going roaches like this seems like a very good way of detering it imo and in regard to battle hellions the only way. Lings just melt TT
I must admit the ling follow up seems abit allin. Just the roaches are effective imo
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On February 04 2013 20:39 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. And just to clarify, it's not that his opener puts me so far behind as the problem. The main issue is going early Burrow doesn't actually pay off. It seems better to just go for Queens/Lings as that will help defend the early drop better. Because as it stands, if going for the early burrow option, either I have to stay back with the roaches to help defend (which loses the advantage of researching Burrow so early) or if I go for Roach aggression, as mentioned the Tank usually is going in to siege mode right as the Roaches reach the base, leaving the Roaches only delaying the natural. The backbone of his opener vs the early Burrow strat is A) the 2 early Widows to exploit no early detection w/o making spores at both bases as a security blanket, B) the drop timing being exactly around the time Roaches are mid-map if going for early aggression, C) the Tank finishing right as Roaches are approaching, and D) the Marines/Dropship being able to exploit not having as many Queens to make the harass a little harder to deal with. So mostly the question is, is it worth the early Burrow for the harass being slightly harder to deal with, for only delaying the expansion? I'm not so sure. Seems the opener w/o rushing to Burrow may be more ideal, as lings and ling speed can help get rid of the marines and the extra queens can handle the Widows, and then can transition in to harassing the Terran natural. Just wondering if I'm missing anything that may make the early burrow a bit more useful, as this opener seems to hold off the Roach harass pretty successfully and make the early burrow mostly insignificant. DRG does a roach push around the same time with 10 roaches. You take the gas at 18, then overlord at 17 and proceed as normal. 3 overlords on 28 then roaches. I've had more success with it than Tang's build. All the terrans I play overreact to the early gas, so you just kind of end up being even.
Sorry, I see you bolded the part where I mentioned the opener w/o rushing to Burrow, but am a bit confused by that.
Were you saying in DRG's roch push method he does not rush to Burrow, or he does rush Burrow?
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i can also vouche for this build... as ive told Tangsc before and sent him a picture of it, i went something like 25-7 W/L by only doing this build, its really fast and if u execute it right you will never lose. or at least win 9/10.
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I prefer binding my units the moment i produce them, shift-rally is a lot harder/more time consuming to do. If you bind your units to their control group while they are still in their eggs, they will move just like the rest of your army, instead of blindly walking in to die.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On February 04 2013 23:37 zarasash wrote: I prefer binding my units the moment i produce them, shift-rally is a lot harder/more time consuming to do. If you bind your units to their control group while they are still in their eggs, they will move just like the rest of your army, instead of blindly walking in to die. Tang talked about adding eggs to your current unit groups. I do that alltime already and think thats the reason why Terrand and protoss are so uncomfort for me. You can't bind units that are in building process
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Very nice post. Also, thanks to Existor for the banner. This thread is a very good guide to all zerg players. I'm liking the idea of how a simple change in burrow can increase the aggression Zerg can put out in mid and early game and this guide basically perfects the build into an early win vs greedy openings.
I have one quick question. What happens if the Terran opens with mines? I've encountered some very specific 1 based reactor factory openings that obtains only mines with fast 2x cc follow up. The roach pressure is quite powerful, but it comes at a time when there are more than 6 mines with a handful of marines out. Also, the better players always leave groups of forward to snipe off lings that help bait the mines. In this case, i should just obtain a 3rd hatch and drone, but during this moment i'm susceptible to the pressure that's followed by that opening, particularly if he attacks with marines with up 10-12 mines. Should i just balance army/drone at that point?
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another thing to solve the rally problem is to shift click the rally point on several roaches (units in general), so that if one of the roaches with the rally dies there will still be others with the rally point upon them and your units still walk to where the action takes place (i stole this from MMA).
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Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D
On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense.
I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory)
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On February 04 2013 23:43 Novacute wrote: Very nice post. Also, thanks to Existor for the banner. This thread is a very good guide to all zerg players. I'm liking the idea of how a simple change in burrow can increase the aggression Zerg can put out in mid and early game and this guide basically perfects the build into an early win vs greedy openings.
I have one quick question. What happens if the Terran opens with mines? I've encountered some very specific 1 based reactor factory openings that obtains only mines with fast 2x cc follow up. The roach pressure is quite powerful, but it comes at a time when there are more than 6 mines with a handful of marines out. Also, the better players always leave groups of forward to snipe off lings that help bait the mines. In this case, i should just obtain a 3rd hatch and drone, but during this moment i'm susceptible to the pressure that's followed by that opening, particularly if he attacks with marines with up 10-12 mines. Should i just balance army/drone at that point? The first benchmark after your Roach or Roach/Ling aggression is to start your third, get +1+1, Lair, and 4 gas with an optimally saturated main and natural (~44 Drones). This is a crucial balance of tech/economy that you should try to reach before producing any additional units (obviously there will be exceptions). Once you've reached this benchmark, you can produce units off of your 3 Hatcheries - or, if you have map control and your opponent is not attacking you, you can start droning the third earlier. You want to avoid mixing in units to "feel safe" before reaching a nice 2-base saturation, because your opponent will pull ahead whether he attacks or not.
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On February 04 2013 23:37 zarasash wrote: I prefer binding my units the moment i produce them, shift-rally is a lot harder/more time consuming to do. If you bind your units to their control group while they are still in their eggs, they will move just like the rest of your army, instead of blindly walking in to die. Well you can shift-rally the actual Hatchery rally points, which takes 2 seconds. That way any units you forget to add to the control group at least travel to your army.
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Very nicely presented guide. Couple of points, though:
1. You describe burrow as a great benefit that you'll address later... and then don't really address it later. I mean, I know it's roach burrow micro, but the lack of detail is at odds with the large amount of detail you go into with overlord and unit rallying etc.
2. Something worth checking out is that if you set off a widow mine with a roach and burrow the roach while the mine is firing, the roach only takes splash damage. I'm almost certain that's the case, and if it is, it's worth including.
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On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory)
Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position.
Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection.
Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods.
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On February 05 2013 00:43 Umpteen wrote: Very nicely presented guide. Couple of points, though:
1. You describe burrow as a great benefit that you'll address later... and then don't really address it later. I mean, I know it's roach burrow micro, but the lack of detail is at odds with the large amount of detail you go into with overlord and unit rallying etc.
2. Something worth checking out is that if you set off a widow mine with a roach and burrow the roach while the mine is firing, the roach only takes splash damage. I'm almost certain that's the case, and if it is, it's worth including. You're right, I didn't give enough emphasis to the importance of Burrow. I've included another quick paragraph in the Execution section.
Researching Burrow at Hatchery means you can now have Burrow for your 7:15 Roach timing! This is well before Turrets and Ravens, so your opponent will have to use scans to detect. Also, Roaches regenerate HP pretty quickly while Burrowed, so if you're burrowing your weakened Roaches you can keep them alive for much longer. Even at an impenetrable wall of Depot/Bunker/SCVs, combining Burrow micro with SCV Focus-Firing will net you a LOT of worker kills. Then, when you're on the defensive against Hellions, Hellbats, or Banshees, you can burrow your Drones and Queens! It is an incredible benefit both for attacking and defending.
P.S. Cool tip about the Widow Mines, I hope that's the case lol! Does anyone else have any mechanics/burrow related micro tips to include?
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On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods.
Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D
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How do you defend against hellions just bypassing your rallying roaches and roasting your drones with just 2 queens to defend?
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Oh and by the way:
-Remove the larvae from the roach eggs ! THIS IS FUNDAMENTAL MEKANIX
to all the readers; CTRL + Click the roach eggs, then SHIFT+ number to add them to a group or CTRL + number to create a controlgroup.
Putting it like that made me envision Zergs manually clicking larvae out of the roach eggs Q_Q
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As with everything Tang does this is an amazing guide, but I have to let you all in on a secret - by the time my lesson time with Tang has run out (which will still be in a while), I will have convinced him to change to Protoss.
He is far too good to play Zerg.
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On February 05 2013 06:15 AsMoDeUs_za wrote: As with everything Tang does this is an amazing guide, but I have to let you all in on a secret - by the time my lesson time with Tang has run out (which will still be in a while), I will have convinced him to change to Protoss.
He is far too good to play Zerg.
lol maybe next expansion...
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On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D
lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly.
But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond.
I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =)
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Decent amount of attention this has gained in just a day :D
I forgot to ask you to iterate, if you see the terran meching, why you do not attack into him and lose your roaches, but instead try to contain him with them.
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On February 05 2013 13:28 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly. But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond. I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =)
Then sending replays would probably be the only way someone can say something constructive
I'm reading your posts and I'm feeling that as long as you don't suicide your roaches you should actually be ahead and still be able to play this into the late game. If you see he's one basing and getting tanks that early use your roaches and burrow for defense, and be greedy; his economy will suck and he won't be able to attack you. But that's all theoretical of course.
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On February 05 2013 00:43 Umpteen wrote: Very nicely presented guide. Couple of points, though:
1. You describe burrow as a great benefit that you'll address later... and then don't really address it later. I mean, I know it's roach burrow micro, but the lack of detail is at odds with the large amount of detail you go into with overlord and unit rallying etc.
2. Something worth checking out is that if you set off a widow mine with a roach and burrow the roach while the mine is firing, the roach only takes splash damage. I'm almost certain that's the case, and if it is, it's worth including.
That's very interesting. I assume it doesn't work if the terran scans or has detection?
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On February 05 2013 14:47 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 13:28 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly. But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond. I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =) Then sending replays would probably be the only way someone can say something constructive I'm reading your posts and I'm feeling that as long as you don't suicide your roaches you should actually be ahead and still be able to play this into the late game. If you see he's one basing and getting tanks that early use your roaches and burrow for defense, and be greedy; his economy will suck and he won't be able to attack you. But that's all theoretical of course.
Yeah, I can use the macro advantage since the burrow can hold him on 1 base for awhile to get ahead. As mentioned it seems the primary advantage of the burrow method vs that opener just delays his natural a bit.
I'm just not so sure it's a better trade-off for the burrow, instead of using a few extra Roaches or Lings/Ling speed to contain the same way, but have a bit more of a map presence.
Still going to try to make it work though, but that's been the only real advantage so far, since after early game the advantages of burrow (mostly) seem to wear off.
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On February 05 2013 14:59 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 14:47 MilesTeg wrote:On February 05 2013 13:28 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly. But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond. I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =) Then sending replays would probably be the only way someone can say something constructive I'm reading your posts and I'm feeling that as long as you don't suicide your roaches you should actually be ahead and still be able to play this into the late game. If you see he's one basing and getting tanks that early use your roaches and burrow for defense, and be greedy; his economy will suck and he won't be able to attack you. But that's all theoretical of course. Yeah, I can use the macro advantage since the burrow can hold him on 1 base for awhile to get ahead. As mentioned it seems the primary advantage of the burrow method vs that opener just delays his natural a bit. I'm just not so sure it's a better trade-off for the burrow, instead of using a few extra Roaches or Lings/Ling speed to contain the same way, but have a bit more of a map presence. Still going to try to make it work though, but that's been the only real advantage so far, since after early game the advantages of burrow (mostly) seem to wear off.
Well, as others have mentioned, this is a silly build (on the Terran part). A good build doesn't need to be optimised against silly builds, it needs to be good against standard play AND do ok against everything else.
If you're playing this guy all the time consider switching to a more defensive style from time to time to punish him from trying to blind counter you.
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On February 05 2013 17:05 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 14:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 14:47 MilesTeg wrote:On February 05 2013 13:28 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote: Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly. But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond. I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =) Then sending replays would probably be the only way someone can say something constructive I'm reading your posts and I'm feeling that as long as you don't suicide your roaches you should actually be ahead and still be able to play this into the late game. If you see he's one basing and getting tanks that early use your roaches and burrow for defense, and be greedy; his economy will suck and he won't be able to attack you. But that's all theoretical of course. Yeah, I can use the macro advantage since the burrow can hold him on 1 base for awhile to get ahead. As mentioned it seems the primary advantage of the burrow method vs that opener just delays his natural a bit. I'm just not so sure it's a better trade-off for the burrow, instead of using a few extra Roaches or Lings/Ling speed to contain the same way, but have a bit more of a map presence. Still going to try to make it work though, but that's been the only real advantage so far, since after early game the advantages of burrow (mostly) seem to wear off. Well, as others have mentioned, this is a silly build (on the Terran part). A good build doesn't need to be optimised against silly builds, it needs to be good against standard play AND do ok against everything else. If you're playing this guy all the time consider switching to a more defensive style from time to time to punish him from trying to blind counter you.
Yeah if I'm trying to win rather than stick w/ the burrow opener, not going with burrow is able to shut him down pretty nicely. Just contain him.
I'm just trying to find ways to make the Burrow opener more beneficial. Feels like I have more success without it, not just vs him but in general.
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Ive done this opener several times already and what I have found is that it works beautifully! Against less skilled players, I am able to use it as a timing attack and do massive damage. It really denies anyone going for fast helbat medivac play if you use your lings correctly. And even when you cannot do significant damage, you can contain them at their natural as you safely take a third and drone up
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TangSC, I want to thank you for this guide. I've been having so much fun with the burroach build. Your writeups are very thorough and easy to follow. I hope you keep us posted throughout heart of the swarm.
Thanks again!
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On February 05 2013 14:21 Unsane wrote: I forgot to ask you to iterate, if you see the terran meching, why you do not attack into him and lose your roaches, but instead try to contain him with them. Well it's a judgement call, most games Terran will only have one tank and you can often still break in and still do considerable damage - in that case it's worth it to lose the Roaches to kill SCVs. But if he's seiged up with a bunker 1-2 Tanks behind a supply depot wall with SCVs already pulled to repair, it's probably better to hang out with your Roach/Ling at the bottom of his ramp, outside of tank range, and delay his expansion for a bit. Naturally he'll push you away and you'll have to pull back, but then you've had time to take your third, drone, add gas and evo chambers, etc.
As long as you take the Xel as you retreat, you should be safe for a while. Most mech pushes don't hit until much later, the only thing you need to worry about is a mass-hellion runby to your natural of third, which you can hold with your initial Roach/Ling + some additional defenses if necessary. Most times, you can fully saturate your third before you think about producing new Roaches or Lings.
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TangSC is the guy who improved both my macro, timing and gamesense with his DRG "Big Bust" guide. Now I have a 100% win rate vs Terrans and I'm not afraid of ZvZ anymore.
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On February 07 2013 04:23 NarAliya wrote: TangSC is the guy who improved both my macro, timing and gamesense with his DRG "Big Bust" guide. Now I have a 100% win rate vs Terrans and I'm not afraid of ZvZ anymore.
Ohhh I wonder if Roach/Ling/Baneling busts will work in HotS...though I feel like widow mines / seige tanks may shut that down, or at least make it harder to execute.
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so when, in your opinion, does this build do best? worst? are there any things you would scout early that would cause you to abandon this build in favor of a macro/defenesive game plan (like early gas, early two gas, etc)?
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On February 09 2013 01:37 Lobotomist wrote: so when, in your opinion, does this build do best? worst? are there any things you would scout early that would cause you to abandon this build in favor of a macro/defenesive game plan (like early gas, early two gas, etc)? The only time I wouldn't do the build is if my opponent 2-rax'd, because Roaches will be too late. If they open 1 or 2 gas and I'm lucky enough to scout it, I would play greedy (no Zerglings) and I would execute the Roach/burrow or Roach/Ling opening as early as possible. It's the transition that would depend on what the opponent is doing, but the Roaches will always reveal his tech.
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I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace?
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On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote: I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk.
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On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote: I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk.
and just add banes vs bio + hellbat? speedovis if they add mines?
does it work with the new even crappier fungal?
i like the idea of roach pressure overall, but what about his openings...are you also doing this vs gas openings where siege tanks or marauder are available and put you far behind because you wont do enough damage? am working on a roach burrow pressure build myself but only doing it vs 1 rax FE or CC first since i have bad results vs gas openers.
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On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote: I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk.
How does Speedling only work against Hellbats or mass Marines? Do you sprinkle in Banes?
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You , dear Tang, have enlightned my dark day as a Zerg in Hots. I was playing with no ideas, wandering without a clear mission. Now , i have a plan and a goal: total anihilation of enemies. :D Thanks
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wow thanks TangSC... I just tried it on the ladder... I'm always ahead even after the roaches are dealt with! one game I was up 70 drones vs the terran's 24 scvs.. like thats seriously a huge advantage
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On February 09 2013 23:58 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote: I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk. and just add banes vs bio + hellbat? speedovis if they add mines? does it work with the new even crappier fungal? i like the idea of roach pressure overall, but what about his openings...are you also doing this vs gas openings where siege tanks or marauder are available and put you far behind because you wont do enough damage? am working on a roach burrow pressure build myself but only doing it vs 1 rax FE or CC first since i have bad results vs gas openers. You definitely have the option of mixing in some banelings into the midgame, though I never do - I put all my gas into upgrades/infestors/hive, because I really like the Infestor/Crackling/Ultralisk composition.
Unfortunately fungal is not as good as it used to be, but I still think the infestor/ling midgame is strong.
Yes, I feel confident with Roach openings against gas openers - I actually prefer it.
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On February 10 2013 01:22 raybasto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote: I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk. How does Speedling only work against Hellbats or mass Marines? Do you sprinkle in Banes? It's all about the engagement and the army sizes of course, but +1+1 Speedlings can shut down some nasty timings. Sometimes if Terran goes for too early of a push, you can overwhelm it and actually counter-attack and win with pure speedlings off a partially-saturated 3 base economy.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
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On February 11 2013 01:33 Cyro wrote: Probes dont have heads Lmao, I suppose I mean that metaphorically
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On February 11 2013 00:57 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 23:58 Decendos wrote:On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote: I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk. and just add banes vs bio + hellbat? speedovis if they add mines? does it work with the new even crappier fungal? i like the idea of roach pressure overall, but what about his openings...are you also doing this vs gas openings where siege tanks or marauder are available and put you far behind because you wont do enough damage? am working on a roach burrow pressure build myself but only doing it vs 1 rax FE or CC first since i have bad results vs gas openers. You definitely have the option of mixing in some banelings into the midgame, though I never do - I put all my gas into upgrades/infestors/hive, because I really like the Infestor/Crackling/Ultralisk composition. Unfortunately fungal is not as good as it used to be, but I still think the infestor/ling midgame is strong. Yes, I feel confident with Roach openings against gas openers - I actually prefer it. I've still got to play plenty more beta, but infestor/ling midgame seems like it'd get destroyed by mech play . Maybe a swarmhost transition would be better against mech.
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You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it.
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On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds.
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On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds.
What are they doing that's so scary? I've never feared reaper openings ZvT in HotS because it takes so many to kill queens that once roaches pop, there's no gas units to hold the push.
Likewise, TvZ I don't open reaper. But it could be fun?
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On February 16 2013 04:50 AveSharia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. What are they doing that's so scary? I've never feared reaper openings ZvT in HotS because it takes so many to kill queens that once roaches pop, there's no gas units to hold the push. Likewise, TvZ I don't open reaper. But it could be fun?
Reapers are actually good. Once there are 3-4 they are very scary. Since no tech lab requirement 3-4 reapers comes out even faster and since they auto heal they always come back full health. Once you get roaches or ling speed out then it's no longer scary, but unless you are rushing it super fast it is scary until those come out.
Also 3-4 repears still kill queens ^_^.
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On February 16 2013 04:53 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 04:50 AveSharia wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. What are they doing that's so scary? I've never feared reaper openings ZvT in HotS because it takes so many to kill queens that once roaches pop, there's no gas units to hold the push. Likewise, TvZ I don't open reaper. But it could be fun? Reapers are actually good. Once there are 3-4 they are very scary. Since no tech lab requirement 3-4 reapers comes out even faster and since they auto heal they always come back full health. Once you get roaches or ling speed out then it's no longer scary, but unless you are rushing it super fast it is scary until those come out. Also 3-4 repears still kill queens ^_^.
Neat. On a two player map, could a terran switch into reaper production if they scouted no gas from the zerg? Would that be effective early game(sub 30 supply) or do the timings not line up and there would be to many lings or queens?
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On February 16 2013 04:53 blade55555 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2013 04:50 AveSharia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. What are they doing that's so scary? I've never feared reaper openings ZvT in HotS because it takes so many to kill queens that once roaches pop, there's no gas units to hold the push. Likewise, TvZ I don't open reaper. But it could be fun? Reapers are actually good. Once there are 3-4 they are very scary. Since no tech lab requirement 3-4 reapers comes out even faster and since they auto heal they always come back full health. Once you get roaches or ling speed out then it's no longer scary, but unless you are rushing it super fast it is scary until those come out. Also 3-4 repears still kill queens ^_^.
Yeah, I was aware that reapers were good, just not TvZ haha. Since I posted that I found this game of Tang's where he loses to a reaper rush, but he didn't actually lose much to the reapers and I'm not sure how it would have gone had he not pulled drones. zergOP (the Terran player - lol) definitely didn't have any power gas units when he got there with roaches, just a marauder in a bunker and a handful of hellions. I don't think it was necessarily a bad decision to pull drones... it just didn't help at all since zOP had hellions.
Maybe the best response isn't to make as many roaches, but rather make a few for defense, and take a third behind it? OTOH, I could see it getting out of hand if the Terran actually did commit harder to reapers... one reactored rax and one naked could make them 3 at a time with minerals to expand and some gas left over to tech. Ultimately it turns into a scouting problem, and I don't think Tang had much information in the replay.
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This match up is so retarded to play right now. Terran can do so many stupid things in the early game, and still be safe because they build 4-6 widow mines, a bunker with 4 marines and/or some hellbats to go along with it. Its very hard to punish a greedy player, so much more difficult then WoL when you had the option to do a roach/bain pressure build and kill some units and SCV's, now you cant even get close to their bunkers and depots because of a couple widow mines sprinkled in front of and behind their wall.
And here I thought they were trying to make the game more aggressive for HotS so we can see some early game micro action, and all we get are cheesy turtle-fest were the Terran have huge defensive capabilities. And thats even compunded by being able to get tanks out with out even getting siege mode.
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On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds.
This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool.
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On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least.
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On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. As of late I have been doing a 9 drone scout in zvt, if I scout a proxy build I simply not build a gas until much later. Problem solved imo.
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On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least.
You're right, have to re-adjust by Overpooling is a bit of an exageration, I should've said you need to re-adjust by building an earlier pool - 15 pool, gas, hatch would probably work too.
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It's obvious from the replays that this is solid versus early aggression, but how does it play out versus a 1 rax cc?
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On February 18 2013 07:39 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: It's obvious from the replays that this is solid versus early aggression, but how does it play out versus a 1 rax cc? For the Roach/Ling push, I think it plays out really well vs 1Rax CC. Many times the initial push will break the defences and you'll win outright (Push hits around 7:00-7:15). The better Terran players will position their bunker somewhere with depots in front (like by the ramp) and with solid micro they can buy time for new units to come out and minimize the damage. The thing that's nice is if you always have a set time that you transition as Zerg, you may throw him off his build while maintaining yours. Still, in HotS there's always the chance they'll get those super-early siege tanks as well and in that scenario you probably end up a bit behind.
As for the Roach/Burrow option, you're not looking to win outright you're just looking to pick off as many SCVs as possible. He'll need to use them to repair so you just focus-fire them down with small packs of Roaches and burrow your weakened ones. You can almost always nab a good amount of workers while you Drone up yourself, and you can always retreat with 4-5 Roaches which means you won't have to build many new units to defend vs Hellion harass or anything.
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My biggest concern with this build is when the opponent has widow mines already set up. You have to lead your roaches in properly or you are gona get blasted. And every 40 seconds you're in for another hit. I didn't see this talked about in the guide.
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On February 20 2013 02:14 osiris17 wrote: My biggest concern with this build is when the opponent has widow mines already set up. You have to lead your roaches in properly or you are gona get blasted. And every 40 seconds you're in for another hit. I didn't see this talked about in the guide.
There's a neat trick around this. If you see widowmines (and widow mines become visible for a split second before they detonate) Immediately burrow all your roaches. The mine will be unable to deal the full damage to any roach. You will only take the 40 damage splash, which the regen should help recover easily.
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I love your guides, Tang. Do you know when you will publish zvp and zvz hots strategies?
One problem I have is when Terran gets an early siege tank. I like to go seedlings, so widow mines are a problem too. Any comments on these?
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On February 20 2013 03:50 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 02:14 osiris17 wrote: My biggest concern with this build is when the opponent has widow mines already set up. You have to lead your roaches in properly or you are gona get blasted. And every 40 seconds you're in for another hit. I didn't see this talked about in the guide. There's a neat trick around this. If you see widowmines (and widow mines become visible for a split second before they detonate) Immediately burrow all your roaches. The mine will be unable to deal the full damage to any roach. You will only take the 40 damage splash, which the regen should help recover easily.
Wow, very very nice trick!
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On February 20 2013 05:51 Ninjury_J wrote: I love your guides, Tang. Do you know when you will publish zvp and zvz hots strategies?
One problem I have is when Terran gets an early siege tank. I like to go seedlings, so widow mines are a problem too. Any comments on these? Just did the series of tutorials for ZvP (Twitch.TV/TangSC) I hope to have the guide finished pretty soon.
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On February 20 2013 03:50 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 02:14 osiris17 wrote: My biggest concern with this build is when the opponent has widow mines already set up. You have to lead your roaches in properly or you are gona get blasted. And every 40 seconds you're in for another hit. I didn't see this talked about in the guide. There's a neat trick around this. If you see widowmines (and widow mines become visible for a split second before they detonate) Immediately burrow all your roaches. The mine will be unable to deal the full damage to any roach. You will only take the 40 damage splash, which the regen should help recover easily. I can confirm this, I tried it out in the unit tester; if anyone cares to know.
On February 20 2013 00:17 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2013 07:39 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: It's obvious from the replays that this is solid versus early aggression, but how does it play out versus a 1 rax cc? For the Roach/Ling push, I think it plays out really well vs 1Rax CC. Many times the initial push will break the defences and you'll win outright (Push hits around 7:00-7:15). The better Terran players will position their bunker somewhere with depots in front (like by the ramp) and with solid micro they can buy time for new units to come out and minimize the damage. The thing that's nice is if you always have a set time that you transition as Zerg, you may throw him off his build while maintaining yours. Still, in HotS there's always the chance they'll get those super-early siege tanks as well and in that scenario you probably end up a bit behind. As for the Roach/Burrow option, you're not looking to win outright you're just looking to pick off as many SCVs as possible. He'll need to use them to repair so you just focus-fire them down with small packs of Roaches and burrow your weakened ones. You can almost always nab a good amount of workers while you Drone up yourself, and you can always retreat with 4-5 Roaches which means you won't have to build many new units to defend vs Hellion harass or anything. Thanks for that lengthy response! I'll try this out in my ZvT.
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On February 20 2013 05:51 Ninjury_J wrote: I love your guides, Tang. Do you know when you will publish zvp and zvz hots strategies?
One problem I have is when Terran gets an early siege tank. I like to go seedlings, so widow mines are a problem too. Any comments on these? Early siege tanks are pretty nasty right now, if they only have one tank it's fine but if they get the 2nd tank up and placed so that the roaches have to break the depot to reach the tank, it's nearly impossible to bust in.
The good news is that you can still delay the expansion mining a while, and you know they aren't hitting you with cloak banshees or an MM push anytime soon, so you can cut some corners.
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On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least.
Hi tang, ive beaten you before in WOL. i play both terran and zerg and i dont think you need overpool for this, i agree. But, you will need to pool first> i have been pooling first forever, i dont like hatch first (the timings, i feel like it causes me to overmake queens and i like to crush 2 raxes/1rax pressures becuase my micro isn't very solid). i think 14p, 16h is the best vs reapers. if youre going to pool first, 15 just feels unnecessarily late, and it feels really nice to use the rallied 14th drone to make the pool so you dont interrupt your mining. i think 15h is still good, but you have to (in my experience) delay queens for spines, and use lings to keep the reapers at bay early on (more than the intial 2 sets. you will need 6 or 8 zerglings at least, vs the proxy reapers) mast. as random in WOL. on the beta i'm the same but race picking between zerg/terran whichever i feel like. this buildwill likely be nerfed or the reaper will be altered again, but i think 14p is fine in the meantime. 14p just feels so safe, i have been doing it since WOL launch and the queen timings feel better to me. (sometimes you cant scout before you start more queens with normal 15h builds, so you end up overmaking queens vs 3CC when you should be starting your 3rd earlier and not making ur creep queen yet)
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On February 24 2013 11:31 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least. Hi tang, ive beaten you before in WOL. Impossible. No one has ever beaten me ever.
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On February 24 2013 11:31 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least. e. 14p just feels so safe, i have been doing it since WOL launch and the queen timings feel better to me. (sometimes you cant scout before you start more queens with normal 15h builds, so you end up overmaking queens vs 3CC when you should be starting your 3rd earlier and not making ur creep queen yet) Yeah 14/15pool are about the same. I may start messing around with some 14g/14p speed expand --> aggression again like the good ol' days.
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On February 24 2013 11:49 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 11:31 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least. e. 14p just feels so safe, i have been doing it since WOL launch and the queen timings feel better to me. (sometimes you cant scout before you start more queens with normal 15h builds, so you end up overmaking queens vs 3CC when you should be starting your 3rd earlier and not making ur creep queen yet) Yeah 14/15pool are about the same. I may start messing around with some 14g/14p speed expand --> aggression again like the good ol' days. good old days is a pretty nostalgic way of putting it. I remember doing that in zvt during the WoL beta just to try and survive early reaper pressure on tiny maps like steppes of war.
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On February 25 2013 09:24 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 11:49 TangSC wrote:On February 24 2013 11:31 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote: You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least. e. 14p just feels so safe, i have been doing it since WOL launch and the queen timings feel better to me. (sometimes you cant scout before you start more queens with normal 15h builds, so you end up overmaking queens vs 3CC when you should be starting your 3rd earlier and not making ur creep queen yet) Yeah 14/15pool are about the same. I may start messing around with some 14g/14p speed expand --> aggression again like the good ol' days. good old days is a pretty nostalgic way of putting it. I remember doing that in zvt during the WoL beta just to try and survive early reaper pressure on tiny maps like steppes of war. Haha I really liked the days of speedling expands into baneling and roach busts - that mentality has never really left me.
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Hi I've been using this build pretty much since you wrote it and I have a pretty sick win rate vs T. I havent been able to play too much because of midterms, but is the concensus that a reaper opening/proxy reaper shuts this down? or can you do an adjustment like pool before gas and get stuff out fast enough to deal with the first reaper without drones? This is assuming I scout on 10 and see gas+rax or gas and no rax(proxy).
I know that if I get e-bay blocked I can hit a similar timing off a gas/pool opener instead of the hatch first. Even when I dont do much damage/use the roaches defensively I feel like Im still ok as long as I keep the roaches alive for a decent amount of time with the burrow.
Also, does T scouting this incoming (say seeing the roaches pop) with the reaper make this worthless? For instance, If they respond by getting an extra siege tank does my just delaying the expo make this worth it? Or if they throw down extra bunkers+marauders?
*this is assuming that you do the roaches+burrow and not the all in with speedlings and follow by droning +teching or taking a third.
At my level of play I've been fine, but Im just wondering why I haven't seen any high level/pro players doing something like this. It seems like such a good opener. There must be a reason its not being used?
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On February 27 2013 03:54 ultrakiss wrote: Hi I've been using this build pretty much since you wrote it and I have a pretty sick win rate vs T. I havent been able to play too much because of midterms, but is the concensus that a reaper opening/proxy reaper shuts this down? or can you do an adjustment like pool before gas and get stuff out fast enough to deal with the first reaper without drones? This is assuming I scout on 10 and see gas+rax or gas and no rax(proxy).
I know that if I get e-bay blocked I can hit a similar timing off a gas/pool opener instead of the hatch first. Even when I dont do much damage/use the roaches defensively I feel like Im still ok as long as I keep the roaches alive for a decent amount of time with the burrow.
Also, does T scouting this incoming (say seeing the roaches pop) with the reaper make this worthless? For instance, If they respond by getting an extra siege tank does my just delaying the expo make this worth it? Or if they throw down extra bunkers+marauders?
*this is assuming that you do the roaches+burrow and not the all in with speedlings and follow by droning +teching or taking a third.
At my level of play I've been fine, but Im just wondering why I haven't seen any high level/pro players doing something like this. It seems like such a good opener. There must be a reason its not being used? With hatch-first, you auto-lose at least 3-5 Drones if he does proxy reapers, and if he gets a bunker at expansion it's worse. I think a 15 Pool/15Hatch with a comparable gas timing (17/18) will defend reasonably well though, and not delay your push long.
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Tang, are you modifying to build to pool first, or leaving it as is?
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On February 27 2013 11:24 Ninjury_J wrote: Tang, are you modifying to build to pool first, or leaving it as is? I'm going to leave it as is, HotS is still developing and I'm working on ZvP next. If hatch-first ever becomes a long-forgotten Zerg dream, I'll definitely modify the build.
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I miss my hatch-tech burrow but only 2 days til release :D
The ZvP one will be released asap, it's mostly done but I just want to wait to see any new changes. Does anyone know if beta replays will be accessible after release?
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On February 27 2013 10:52 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 03:54 ultrakiss wrote: Hi I've been using this build pretty much since you wrote it and I have a pretty sick win rate vs T. I havent been able to play too much because of midterms, but is the concensus that a reaper opening/proxy reaper shuts this down? or can you do an adjustment like pool before gas and get stuff out fast enough to deal with the first reaper without drones? This is assuming I scout on 10 and see gas+rax or gas and no rax(proxy).
I know that if I get e-bay blocked I can hit a similar timing off a gas/pool opener instead of the hatch first. Even when I dont do much damage/use the roaches defensively I feel like Im still ok as long as I keep the roaches alive for a decent amount of time with the burrow.
Also, does T scouting this incoming (say seeing the roaches pop) with the reaper make this worthless? For instance, If they respond by getting an extra siege tank does my just delaying the expo make this worth it? Or if they throw down extra bunkers+marauders?
*this is assuming that you do the roaches+burrow and not the all in with speedlings and follow by droning +teching or taking a third.
At my level of play I've been fine, but Im just wondering why I haven't seen any high level/pro players doing something like this. It seems like such a good opener. There must be a reason its not being used? With hatch-first, you auto-lose at least 3-5 Drones if he does proxy reapers, and if he gets a bunker at expansion it's worse. I think a 15 Pool/15Hatch with a comparable gas timing (17/18) will defend reasonably well though, and not delay your push long.
I agree, I've found 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool to be better on large maps and worse on small maps because of the combined risk of Proxy Reapers and 11/11, and as evidence you can watch Stephano's MLG performance as he executed the 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool build for Roach/Burrow rushes exclusively and lost dramatically to Proxy Reapers and 11/11.
The risk of Proxy Reapers to 15/16/15 is probably too great on small maps, I've tried 13 Scout, 14 Pool, 16 Hatch, 15 Gas to good effect and you can soft counter any Engineering Bay blocks from Barracks Expand with a Proxy Hatch in their main.
I really don't think the contortions you have to go to fend off a Reaper is worth the better economic set up unless you know your opponent's prefer CC first.
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On March 17 2013 17:45 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 10:52 TangSC wrote:On February 27 2013 03:54 ultrakiss wrote: Hi I've been using this build pretty much since you wrote it and I have a pretty sick win rate vs T. I havent been able to play too much because of midterms, but is the concensus that a reaper opening/proxy reaper shuts this down? or can you do an adjustment like pool before gas and get stuff out fast enough to deal with the first reaper without drones? This is assuming I scout on 10 and see gas+rax or gas and no rax(proxy).
I know that if I get e-bay blocked I can hit a similar timing off a gas/pool opener instead of the hatch first. Even when I dont do much damage/use the roaches defensively I feel like Im still ok as long as I keep the roaches alive for a decent amount of time with the burrow.
Also, does T scouting this incoming (say seeing the roaches pop) with the reaper make this worthless? For instance, If they respond by getting an extra siege tank does my just delaying the expo make this worth it? Or if they throw down extra bunkers+marauders?
*this is assuming that you do the roaches+burrow and not the all in with speedlings and follow by droning +teching or taking a third.
At my level of play I've been fine, but Im just wondering why I haven't seen any high level/pro players doing something like this. It seems like such a good opener. There must be a reason its not being used? With hatch-first, you auto-lose at least 3-5 Drones if he does proxy reapers, and if he gets a bunker at expansion it's worse. I think a 15 Pool/15Hatch with a comparable gas timing (17/18) will defend reasonably well though, and not delay your push long. I agree, I've found 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool to be better on large maps and worse on small maps because of the combined risk of Proxy Reapers and 11/11, and as evidence you can watch Stephano's MLG performance as he executed the 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool build for Roach/Burrow rushes exclusively and lost dramatically to Proxy Reapers and 11/11. The risk of Proxy Reapers to 15/16/15 is probably too great on small maps, I've tried 13 Scout, 14 Pool, 16 Hatch, 15 Gas to good effect and you can soft counter any Engineering Bay blocks from Barracks Expand with a Proxy Hatch in their main. I've been leaning towards 15Pool / 15 Gas / 17 Hatch on smaller maps, because you can build your queen on 16, then overlord, then 3 sets of Lings. When you queen pops you can move to expansion with it and 6 lings and you're golden. Then you can drone, get your 2nd queen, and have the option of building Speedlings with your first inject to go for 14 Speedling pressure around 5:30. It also follows into the 8 Roach/Speedling timing very well.
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On March 19 2013 07:25 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 17:45 MoonCricket wrote:On February 27 2013 10:52 TangSC wrote:On February 27 2013 03:54 ultrakiss wrote: Hi I've been using this build pretty much since you wrote it and I have a pretty sick win rate vs T. I havent been able to play too much because of midterms, but is the concensus that a reaper opening/proxy reaper shuts this down? or can you do an adjustment like pool before gas and get stuff out fast enough to deal with the first reaper without drones? This is assuming I scout on 10 and see gas+rax or gas and no rax(proxy).
I know that if I get e-bay blocked I can hit a similar timing off a gas/pool opener instead of the hatch first. Even when I dont do much damage/use the roaches defensively I feel like Im still ok as long as I keep the roaches alive for a decent amount of time with the burrow.
Also, does T scouting this incoming (say seeing the roaches pop) with the reaper make this worthless? For instance, If they respond by getting an extra siege tank does my just delaying the expo make this worth it? Or if they throw down extra bunkers+marauders?
*this is assuming that you do the roaches+burrow and not the all in with speedlings and follow by droning +teching or taking a third.
At my level of play I've been fine, but Im just wondering why I haven't seen any high level/pro players doing something like this. It seems like such a good opener. There must be a reason its not being used? With hatch-first, you auto-lose at least 3-5 Drones if he does proxy reapers, and if he gets a bunker at expansion it's worse. I think a 15 Pool/15Hatch with a comparable gas timing (17/18) will defend reasonably well though, and not delay your push long. I agree, I've found 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool to be better on large maps and worse on small maps because of the combined risk of Proxy Reapers and 11/11, and as evidence you can watch Stephano's MLG performance as he executed the 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool build for Roach/Burrow rushes exclusively and lost dramatically to Proxy Reapers and 11/11. The risk of Proxy Reapers to 15/16/15 is probably too great on small maps, I've tried 13 Scout, 14 Pool, 16 Hatch, 15 Gas to good effect and you can soft counter any Engineering Bay blocks from Barracks Expand with a Proxy Hatch in their main. I've been leaning towards 15Pool / 15 Gas / 17 Hatch on smaller maps, because you can build your queen on 16, then overlord, then 3 sets of Lings. When you queen pops you can move to expansion with it and 6 lings and you're golden. Then you can drone, get your 2nd queen, and have the option of building Speedlings with your first inject to go for 14 Speedling pressure around 5:30. It also follows into the 8 Roach/Speedling timing very well.
could you write a more detailed build order for this? Would be of great help. Thank you.
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On March 19 2013 07:29 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 07:25 TangSC wrote:On March 17 2013 17:45 MoonCricket wrote:On February 27 2013 10:52 TangSC wrote:On February 27 2013 03:54 ultrakiss wrote: Hi I've been using this build pretty much since you wrote it and I have a pretty sick win rate vs T. I havent been able to play too much because of midterms, but is the concensus that a reaper opening/proxy reaper shuts this down? or can you do an adjustment like pool before gas and get stuff out fast enough to deal with the first reaper without drones? This is assuming I scout on 10 and see gas+rax or gas and no rax(proxy).
I know that if I get e-bay blocked I can hit a similar timing off a gas/pool opener instead of the hatch first. Even when I dont do much damage/use the roaches defensively I feel like Im still ok as long as I keep the roaches alive for a decent amount of time with the burrow.
Also, does T scouting this incoming (say seeing the roaches pop) with the reaper make this worthless? For instance, If they respond by getting an extra siege tank does my just delaying the expo make this worth it? Or if they throw down extra bunkers+marauders?
*this is assuming that you do the roaches+burrow and not the all in with speedlings and follow by droning +teching or taking a third.
At my level of play I've been fine, but Im just wondering why I haven't seen any high level/pro players doing something like this. It seems like such a good opener. There must be a reason its not being used? With hatch-first, you auto-lose at least 3-5 Drones if he does proxy reapers, and if he gets a bunker at expansion it's worse. I think a 15 Pool/15Hatch with a comparable gas timing (17/18) will defend reasonably well though, and not delay your push long. I agree, I've found 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool to be better on large maps and worse on small maps because of the combined risk of Proxy Reapers and 11/11, and as evidence you can watch Stephano's MLG performance as he executed the 15 Hatchery, 16 Extractor, 15 Spawning Pool build for Roach/Burrow rushes exclusively and lost dramatically to Proxy Reapers and 11/11. The risk of Proxy Reapers to 15/16/15 is probably too great on small maps, I've tried 13 Scout, 14 Pool, 16 Hatch, 15 Gas to good effect and you can soft counter any Engineering Bay blocks from Barracks Expand with a Proxy Hatch in their main. I've been leaning towards 15Pool / 15 Gas / 17 Hatch on smaller maps, because you can build your queen on 16, then overlord, then 3 sets of Lings. When you queen pops you can move to expansion with it and 6 lings and you're golden. Then you can drone, get your 2nd queen, and have the option of building Speedlings with your first inject to go for 14 Speedling pressure around 5:30. It also follows into the 8 Roach/Speedling timing very well. could you write a more detailed build order for this? Would be of great help. Thank you. 15pool 15gas 17hatch 16queen 18overlord 18-21 Lings 21Queen 23Overlord Drones until inject finishes 4xSets of Lings with first inject (8 + the initial 6 = 14 Speedlings to pressure). Then keep droning while you poke.
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How does this build do against someone going for tanks first (no mines, no hellions) or just a bunch of marines after 1raxFE? I imagine it would do little damage and leave me behind compared to standard play.
Are there any BO losses I should take in consideration? Is this a blind build or should I abort it in some cases? If so, what scouting information should I get?
Thx.
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On April 18 2013 11:20 Azoryen wrote: How does this build do against someone going for tanks first (no mines, no hellions) or just a bunch of marines after 1raxFE? I imagine it would do little damage and leave me behind compared to standard play.
Are there any BO losses I should take in consideration? Is this a blind build or should I abort it in some cases? If so, what scouting information should I get?
Thx.
Well in WoL it used to be that if Terran went for siege tanks, they'd be behind economically because they'd have to stay on one base for a while and research the tech - and if you got in there at 7:15 you'd often still win because they would have just 1 tank unsieged. Now, with Widow Mines and already-upgraded tanks, it's harder to deal game-ending damage with this build; they can have 2 tanks sieged behind the depots and SCVs pulled to repair. In that scenario, it's best just to power Drones from 50-60 supply and get your third started by 7:15, then just keep macroing.
I wouldn't say it's a build order loss, because you do still get a good amount of time to safely power Drones after the attack, but if you make the 8 Roaches and 12-16 Zerglings, and do absolutely no damage, you will have to cut a few corners to stay even. If I did no damage early on, I would most often Drone to a fully-saturated 3 bases with at least 4 gas (60-70 Drones) without producing any units (just relying on the already-build Roach/Ling to hold the Xel / defend). You may die to some sort of early 2base all-in, but it's a risk you have to take when your aggression is completely shut down.
I don't think this build needs to be aborted based on scouting information, but you may decide only to make like 4-5 Roaches and a few Speedlings to go for a "fake", which allows for a faster transition. It's something I've done quite often when matched against the same opponent.
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So do you still advocate the 15 hatch version in the OP, or the 15 pool version above?
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On April 20 2013 03:34 Ninjury_J wrote: So do you still advocate the 15 hatch version in the OP, or the 15 pool version above? Hatch-first is still viable against reapers, especially with gas before pool, so I lean towards hatch-first in most of my games. Both versions work pretty well though.
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Been using this build (hatch-first) with great success recently. Doesn't fair too well against lots of rax (no reaper/hellion) from my experience, but that can be scouted before getting all the roaches.
Do you know how the economy is compared to the standard 4 Queen opening? How far behind does it set you if, in the unlikely scenario, you don't get much any damage done?
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On April 21 2013 16:26 Chris2124 wrote: Been using this build (hatch-first) with great success recently. Doesn't fair too well against lots of rax (no reaper/hellion) from my experience, but that can be scouted before getting all the roaches.
Do you know how the economy is compared to the standard 4 Queen opening? How far behind does it set you if, in the unlikely scenario, you don't get much any damage done? Yeah if they go for a 1Rax FE into 3 Barracks walling their natural, it's tough to break in. Those Barracks builds aren't ideal, but luckily they're rare and map-specific. And, as you mention, you can scout with the first set of Lings you build.
You're pretty delayed compared to a standard 4 Queen opening. You sit on 22~ Drones until about 7:00. 4 Queen openings let you reach full 2-base saturation about a minute earlier than this build I would suspect, though I don't have any specific numbers on the difference between the two builds.
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