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On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool.
I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least.
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On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool.
As of late I have been doing a 9 drone scout in zvt, if I scout a proxy build I simply not build a gas until much later. Problem solved imo.
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On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least.
You're right, have to re-adjust by Overpooling is a bit of an exageration, I should've said you need to re-adjust by building an earlier pool - 15 pool, gas, hatch would probably work too.
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It's obvious from the replays that this is solid versus early aggression, but how does it play out versus a 1 rax cc?
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On February 18 2013 07:39 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
It's obvious from the replays that this is solid versus early aggression, but how does it play out versus a 1 rax cc?
For the Roach/Ling push, I think it plays out really well vs 1Rax CC. Many times the initial push will break the defences and you'll win outright (Push hits around 7:00-7:15). The better Terran players will position their bunker somewhere with depots in front (like by the ramp) and with solid micro they can buy time for new units to come out and minimize the damage. The thing that's nice is if you always have a set time that you transition as Zerg, you may throw him off his build while maintaining yours. Still, in HotS there's always the chance they'll get those super-early siege tanks as well and in that scenario you probably end up a bit behind.
As for the Roach/Burrow option, you're not looking to win outright you're just looking to pick off as many SCVs as possible. He'll need to use them to repair so you just focus-fire them down with small packs of Roaches and burrow your weakened ones. You can almost always nab a good amount of workers while you Drone up yourself, and you can always retreat with 4-5 Roaches which means you won't have to build many new units to defend vs Hellion harass or anything.
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My biggest concern with this build is when the opponent has widow mines already set up. You have to lead your roaches in properly or you are gona get blasted. And every 40 seconds you're in for another hit. I didn't see this talked about in the guide.
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On February 20 2013 02:14 osiris17 wrote:
My biggest concern with this build is when the opponent has widow mines already set up. You have to lead your roaches in properly or you are gona get blasted. And every 40 seconds you're in for another hit. I didn't see this talked about in the guide.
There's a neat trick around this.
If you see widowmines (and widow mines become visible for a split second before they detonate)
Immediately burrow all your roaches. The mine will be unable to deal the full damage to any roach.
You will only take the 40 damage splash, which the regen should help recover easily.
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I love your guides, Tang. Do you know when you will publish zvp and zvz hots strategies?
One problem I have is when Terran gets an early siege tank. I like to go seedlings, so widow mines are a problem too. Any comments on these?
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On February 20 2013 03:50 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 02:14 osiris17 wrote:
My biggest concern with this build is when the opponent has widow mines already set up. You have to lead your roaches in properly or you are gona get blasted. And every 40 seconds you're in for another hit. I didn't see this talked about in the guide. There's a neat trick around this. If you see widowmines (and widow mines become visible for a split second before they detonate) Immediately burrow all your roaches. The mine will be unable to deal the full damage to any roach. You will only take the 40 damage splash, which the regen should help recover easily.
Wow, very very nice trick!
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On February 20 2013 05:51 Ninjury_J wrote:
I love your guides, Tang. Do you know when you will publish zvp and zvz hots strategies?
One problem I have is when Terran gets an early siege tank. I like to go seedlings, so widow mines are a problem too. Any comments on these?
Just did the series of tutorials for ZvP (Twitch.TV/TangSC) I hope to have the guide finished pretty soon.
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On February 20 2013 03:50 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 02:14 osiris17 wrote:
My biggest concern with this build is when the opponent has widow mines already set up. You have to lead your roaches in properly or you are gona get blasted. And every 40 seconds you're in for another hit. I didn't see this talked about in the guide. There's a neat trick around this. If you see widowmines (and widow mines become visible for a split second before they detonate) Immediately burrow all your roaches. The mine will be unable to deal the full damage to any roach. You will only take the 40 damage splash, which the regen should help recover easily.
I can confirm this, I tried it out in the unit tester; if anyone cares to know.
On February 20 2013 00:17 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2013 07:39 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
It's obvious from the replays that this is solid versus early aggression, but how does it play out versus a 1 rax cc? For the Roach/Ling push, I think it plays out really well vs 1Rax CC. Many times the initial push will break the defences and you'll win outright (Push hits around 7:00-7:15). The better Terran players will position their bunker somewhere with depots in front (like by the ramp) and with solid micro they can buy time for new units to come out and minimize the damage. The thing that's nice is if you always have a set time that you transition as Zerg, you may throw him off his build while maintaining yours. Still, in HotS there's always the chance they'll get those super-early siege tanks as well and in that scenario you probably end up a bit behind. As for the Roach/Burrow option, you're not looking to win outright you're just looking to pick off as many SCVs as possible. He'll need to use them to repair so you just focus-fire them down with small packs of Roaches and burrow your weakened ones. You can almost always nab a good amount of workers while you Drone up yourself, and you can always retreat with 4-5 Roaches which means you won't have to build many new units to defend vs Hellion harass or anything.
Thanks for that lengthy response! I'll try this out in my ZvT.
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On February 20 2013 05:51 Ninjury_J wrote:
I love your guides, Tang. Do you know when you will publish zvp and zvz hots strategies?
One problem I have is when Terran gets an early siege tank. I like to go seedlings, so widow mines are a problem too. Any comments on these?
Early siege tanks are pretty nasty right now, if they only have one tank it's fine but if they get the 2nd tank up and placed so that the roaches have to break the depot to reach the tank, it's nearly impossible to bust in.
The good news is that you can still delay the expansion mining a while, and you know they aren't hitting you with cloak banshees or an MM push anytime soon, so you can cut some corners.
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On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least.
Hi tang, ive beaten you before in WOL. i play both terran and zerg and i dont think you need overpool for this, i agree. But, you will need to pool first> i have been pooling first forever, i dont like hatch first (the timings, i feel like it causes me to overmake queens and i like to crush 2 raxes/1rax pressures becuase my micro isn't very solid). i think 14p, 16h is the best vs reapers. if youre going to pool first, 15 just feels unnecessarily late, and it feels really nice to use the rallied 14th drone to make the pool so you dont interrupt your mining. i think 15h is still good, but you have to (in my experience) delay queens for spines, and use lings to keep the reapers at bay early on (more than the intial 2 sets. you will need 6 or 8 zerglings at least, vs the proxy reapers) mast. as random in WOL. on the beta i'm the same but race picking between zerg/terran whichever i feel like. this buildwill likely be nerfed or the reaper will be altered again, but i think 14p is fine in the meantime. 14p just feels so safe, i have been doing it since WOL launch and the queen timings feel better to me. (sometimes you cant scout before you start more queens with normal 15h builds, so you end up overmaking queens vs 3CC when you should be starting your 3rd earlier and not making ur creep queen yet)
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On February 24 2013 11:31 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least. Hi tang, ive beaten you before in WOL.
Impossible. No one has ever beaten me ever.
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On February 24 2013 11:31 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least. e. 14p just feels so safe, i have been doing it since WOL launch and the queen timings feel better to me. (sometimes you cant scout before you start more queens with normal 15h builds, so you end up overmaking queens vs 3CC when you should be starting your 3rd earlier and not making ur creep queen yet)
Yeah 14/15pool are about the same. I may start messing around with some 14g/14p speed expand --> aggression again like the good ol' days.
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On February 24 2013 11:49 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 11:31 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least. e. 14p just feels so safe, i have been doing it since WOL launch and the queen timings feel better to me. (sometimes you cant scout before you start more queens with normal 15h builds, so you end up overmaking queens vs 3CC when you should be starting your 3rd earlier and not making ur creep queen yet) Yeah 14/15pool are about the same. I may start messing around with some 14g/14p speed expand --> aggression again like the good ol' days. good old days is a pretty nostalgic way of putting it. I remember doing that in zvt during the WoL beta just to try and survive early reaper pressure on tiny maps like steppes of war.
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On February 25 2013 09:24 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 11:49 TangSC wrote:On February 24 2013 11:31 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 17 2013 04:04 TangSC wrote:On February 16 2013 17:46 MoonCricket wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool. I'm not 100% convinced that the build needs to be changed to Overpool to deal with reapers, but you may be right. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage 15p/15h at least. e. 14p just feels so safe, i have been doing it since WOL launch and the queen timings feel better to me. (sometimes you cant scout before you start more queens with normal 15h builds, so you end up overmaking queens vs 3CC when you should be starting your 3rd earlier and not making ur creep queen yet) Yeah 14/15pool are about the same. I may start messing around with some 14g/14p speed expand --> aggression again like the good ol' days. good old days is a pretty nostalgic way of putting it. I remember doing that in zvt during the WoL beta just to try and survive early reaper pressure on tiny maps like steppes of war.
Haha I really liked the days of speedling expands into baneling and roach busts - that mentality has never really left me.
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Hi I've been using this build pretty much since you wrote it and I have a pretty sick win rate vs T. I havent been able to play too much because of midterms, but is the concensus that a reaper opening/proxy reaper shuts this down? or can you do an adjustment like pool before gas and get stuff out fast enough to deal with the first reaper without drones? This is assuming I scout on 10 and see gas+rax or gas and no rax(proxy).
I know that if I get e-bay blocked I can hit a similar timing off a gas/pool opener instead of the hatch first. Even when I dont do much damage/use the roaches defensively I feel like Im still ok as long as I keep the roaches alive for a decent amount of time with the burrow.
Also, does T scouting this incoming (say seeing the roaches pop) with the reaper make this worthless? For instance, If they respond by getting an extra siege tank does my just delaying the expo make this worth it? Or if they throw down extra bunkers+marauders?
*this is assuming that you do the roaches+burrow and not the all in with speedlings and follow by droning +teching or taking a third.
At my level of play I've been fine, but Im just wondering why I haven't seen any high level/pro players doing something like this. It seems like such a good opener. There must be a reason its not being used?
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On February 27 2013 03:54 ultrakiss wrote:
Hi I've been using this build pretty much since you wrote it and I have a pretty sick win rate vs T. I havent been able to play too much because of midterms, but is the concensus that a reaper opening/proxy reaper shuts this down? or can you do an adjustment like pool before gas and get stuff out fast enough to deal with the first reaper without drones? This is assuming I scout on 10 and see gas+rax or gas and no rax(proxy).
I know that if I get e-bay blocked I can hit a similar timing off a gas/pool opener instead of the hatch first. Even when I dont do much damage/use the roaches defensively I feel like Im still ok as long as I keep the roaches alive for a decent amount of time with the burrow.
Also, does T scouting this incoming (say seeing the roaches pop) with the reaper make this worthless? For instance, If they respond by getting an extra siege tank does my just delaying the expo make this worth it? Or if they throw down extra bunkers+marauders?
*this is assuming that you do the roaches+burrow and not the all in with speedlings and follow by droning +teching or taking a third.
At my level of play I've been fine, but Im just wondering why I haven't seen any high level/pro players doing something like this. It seems like such a good opener. There must be a reason its not being used?
With hatch-first, you auto-lose at least 3-5 Drones if he does proxy reapers, and if he gets a bunker at expansion it's worse. I think a 15 Pool/15Hatch with a comparable gas timing (17/18) will defend reasonably well though, and not delay your push long.
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EPT
