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On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory)
Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position.
Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection.
Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods.
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On February 05 2013 00:43 Umpteen wrote:
Very nicely presented guide. Couple of points, though:
1. You describe burrow as a great benefit that you'll address later... and then don't really address it later. I mean, I know it's roach burrow micro, but the lack of detail is at odds with the large amount of detail you go into with overlord and unit rallying etc.
2. Something worth checking out is that if you set off a widow mine with a roach and burrow the roach while the mine is firing, the roach only takes splash damage. I'm almost certain that's the case, and if it is, it's worth including.
You're right, I didn't give enough emphasis to the importance of Burrow. I've included another quick paragraph in the Execution section.
Researching Burrow at Hatchery means you can now have Burrow for your 7:15 Roach timing! This is well before Turrets and Ravens, so your opponent will have to use scans to detect. Also, Roaches regenerate HP pretty quickly while Burrowed, so if you're burrowing your weakened Roaches you can keep them alive for much longer. Even at an impenetrable wall of Depot/Bunker/SCVs, combining Burrow micro with SCV Focus-Firing will net you a LOT of worker kills. Then, when you're on the defensive against Hellions, Hellbats, or Banshees, you can burrow your Drones and Queens! It is an incredible benefit both for attacking and defending.
P.S. Cool tip about the Widow Mines, I hope that's the case lol! Does anyone else have any mechanics/burrow related micro tips to include?
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On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods.
Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times!
His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you.
It does seems realy bad against standar play tho.
My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play.
This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways!
And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you?
Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D
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How do you defend against hellions just bypassing your rallying roaches and roasting your drones with just 2 queens to defend?
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Oh and by the way:
-Remove the larvae from the roach eggs ! THIS IS FUNDAMENTAL MEKANIX
to all the readers; CTRL + Click the roach eggs, then SHIFT+ number to add them to a group or CTRL + number to create a controlgroup.
Putting it like that made me envision Zergs manually clicking larvae out of the roach eggs Q_Q
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As with everything Tang does this is an amazing guide, but I have to let you all in on a secret - by the time my lesson time with Tang has run out (which will still be in a while), I will have convinced him to change to Protoss.
He is far too good to play Zerg.
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On February 05 2013 06:15 AsMoDeUs_za wrote:
As with everything Tang does this is an amazing guide, but I have to let you all in on a secret - by the time my lesson time with Tang has run out (which will still be in a while), I will have convinced him to change to Protoss.
He is far too good to play Zerg.
lol maybe next expansion...
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On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D
lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly.
But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond.
I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =)
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Decent amount of attention this has gained in just a day :D
I forgot to ask you to iterate, if you see the terran meching, why you do not attack into him and lose your roaches, but instead try to contain him with them.
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On February 05 2013 13:28 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly. But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond. I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =)
Then sending replays would probably be the only way someone can say something constructive 
I'm reading your posts and I'm feeling that as long as you don't suicide your roaches you should actually be ahead and still be able to play this into the late game. If you see he's one basing and getting tanks that early use your roaches and burrow for defense, and be greedy; his economy will suck and he won't be able to attack you. But that's all theoretical of course.
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On February 05 2013 00:43 Umpteen wrote:
Very nicely presented guide. Couple of points, though:
1. You describe burrow as a great benefit that you'll address later... and then don't really address it later. I mean, I know it's roach burrow micro, but the lack of detail is at odds with the large amount of detail you go into with overlord and unit rallying etc.
2. Something worth checking out is that if you set off a widow mine with a roach and burrow the roach while the mine is firing, the roach only takes splash damage. I'm almost certain that's the case, and if it is, it's worth including.
That's very interesting. I assume it doesn't work if the terran scans or has detection?
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On February 05 2013 14:47 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 13:28 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly. But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond. I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =) Then sending replays would probably be the only way someone can say something constructive I'm reading your posts and I'm feeling that as long as you don't suicide your roaches you should actually be ahead and still be able to play this into the late game. If you see he's one basing and getting tanks that early use your roaches and burrow for defense, and be greedy; his economy will suck and he won't be able to attack you. But that's all theoretical of course.
Yeah, I can use the macro advantage since the burrow can hold him on 1 base for awhile to get ahead. As mentioned it seems the primary advantage of the burrow method vs that opener just delays his natural a bit.
I'm just not so sure it's a better trade-off for the burrow, instead of using a few extra Roaches or Lings/Ling speed to contain the same way, but have a bit more of a map presence.
Still going to try to make it work though, but that's been the only real advantage so far, since after early game the advantages of burrow (mostly) seem to wear off.
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On February 05 2013 14:59 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 14:47 MilesTeg wrote:On February 05 2013 13:28 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly. But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond. I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =) Then sending replays would probably be the only way someone can say something constructive I'm reading your posts and I'm feeling that as long as you don't suicide your roaches you should actually be ahead and still be able to play this into the late game. If you see he's one basing and getting tanks that early use your roaches and burrow for defense, and be greedy; his economy will suck and he won't be able to attack you. But that's all theoretical of course. Yeah, I can use the macro advantage since the burrow can hold him on 1 base for awhile to get ahead. As mentioned it seems the primary advantage of the burrow method vs that opener just delays his natural a bit. I'm just not so sure it's a better trade-off for the burrow, instead of using a few extra Roaches or Lings/Ling speed to contain the same way, but have a bit more of a map presence. Still going to try to make it work though, but that's been the only real advantage so far, since after early game the advantages of burrow (mostly) seem to wear off.
Well, as others have mentioned, this is a silly build (on the Terran part). A good build doesn't need to be optimised against silly builds, it needs to be good against standard play AND do ok against everything else.
If you're playing this guy all the time consider switching to a more defensive style from time to time to punish him from trying to blind counter you.
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On February 05 2013 17:05 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 14:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 14:47 MilesTeg wrote:On February 05 2013 13:28 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 02:08 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:On February 05 2013 00:47 Spyridon wrote:On February 05 2013 00:24 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory) Yes, no early expansion, but I mentioned (although I slipped it in a weird spot so you may have missed) that he expands when transitioning to the main build, usually around when sending out the harassment. Although since he is more used to my style, he typically waits to expand to see if I sent the initial Roaches or not, to make sure I don't catch him out of position. Basically he uses a minimal amount of resources (2 widows and marines in a dropship, followed by a tank and a couple more marines) to prevent the burrow Roach harass from doing much damage, and a fair amount of harass if I'm not prepared with early detection. Sets me back a little bit economically (not too bad unless I mess up and get Queens sniped), but more importantly shuts down the early aggression and makes the early Burrow a bit of a wasted investment (although I've typically tried 7 Roach harass, not 8 as explained here, or 10 as explained by the other poster above). I guess you could say it just doesn't feel optimized against that sort of opener, but I still want to try to make it work as best as possible, since I'm trying to explore the new options right now (early burrow) rather than focus on the already existing methods. Hehe, sounds like you have "roached" your friend too many times! His strategy sounds like it is invented to stop you. It does seems realy bad against standar play tho. My advice is to learn and be comfortable with both at your current level of play. This type of agressive openings often leads into more standar play, so it would be needed anyways! And if you want to win against known players you will need more than 1 type of play anyways. Else you are easily countered. Diversity is king! ( ladder ) what league is your terran friend, and you? Good luck sir! You will need all of it against the terran onslought ! :D lol, yeah it basically was invented to stop me. It's based around my timings perfectly. But I'd rather see if there's any way to counteract that effectively without giving up on the opener completely, because as you said the opener is strong for random games, but who knows if I happen to scout this type of response... I have to be ready to respond. I last played SC2 in Season 1 before they added masters league, in which case I worked my way up to diamond league (which was max at the time). My friend usually trailed right behind me in rank (I played a little more), but he was always hard to deal with because Terran was a lot harder to handle that early in WoL. I need to practice a bit more again now though, my macro and multitasking isn't what it used to be =) Then sending replays would probably be the only way someone can say something constructive I'm reading your posts and I'm feeling that as long as you don't suicide your roaches you should actually be ahead and still be able to play this into the late game. If you see he's one basing and getting tanks that early use your roaches and burrow for defense, and be greedy; his economy will suck and he won't be able to attack you. But that's all theoretical of course. Yeah, I can use the macro advantage since the burrow can hold him on 1 base for awhile to get ahead. As mentioned it seems the primary advantage of the burrow method vs that opener just delays his natural a bit. I'm just not so sure it's a better trade-off for the burrow, instead of using a few extra Roaches or Lings/Ling speed to contain the same way, but have a bit more of a map presence. Still going to try to make it work though, but that's been the only real advantage so far, since after early game the advantages of burrow (mostly) seem to wear off. Well, as others have mentioned, this is a silly build (on the Terran part). A good build doesn't need to be optimised against silly builds, it needs to be good against standard play AND do ok against everything else. If you're playing this guy all the time consider switching to a more defensive style from time to time to punish him from trying to blind counter you.
Yeah if I'm trying to win rather than stick w/ the burrow opener, not going with burrow is able to shut him down pretty nicely. Just contain him.
I'm just trying to find ways to make the Burrow opener more beneficial. Feels like I have more success without it, not just vs him but in general.
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Ive done this opener several times already and what I have found is that it works beautifully! Against less skilled players, I am able to use it as a timing attack and do massive damage. It really denies anyone going for fast helbat medivac play if you use your lings correctly. And even when you cannot do significant damage, you can contain them at their natural as you safely take a third and drone up 
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TangSC,
I want to thank you for this guide.
I've been having so much fun with the burroach build.
Your writeups are very thorough and easy to follow.
I hope you keep us posted throughout heart of the swarm.
Thanks again!
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On February 05 2013 14:21 Unsane wrote:
I forgot to ask you to iterate, if you see the terran meching, why you do not attack into him and lose your roaches, but instead try to contain him with them.
Well it's a judgement call, most games Terran will only have one tank and you can often still break in and still do considerable damage - in that case it's worth it to lose the Roaches to kill SCVs. But if he's seiged up with a bunker 1-2 Tanks behind a supply depot wall with SCVs already pulled to repair, it's probably better to hang out with your Roach/Ling at the bottom of his ramp, outside of tank range, and delay his expansion for a bit. Naturally he'll push you away and you'll have to pull back, but then you've had time to take your third, drone, add gas and evo chambers, etc.
As long as you take the Xel as you retreat, you should be safe for a while. Most mech pushes don't hit until much later, the only thing you need to worry about is a mass-hellion runby to your natural of third, which you can hold with your initial Roach/Ling + some additional defenses if necessary. Most times, you can fully saturate your third before you think about producing new Roaches or Lings.
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TangSC is the guy who improved both my macro, timing and gamesense with his DRG "Big Bust" guide. Now I have a 100% win rate vs Terrans and I'm not afraid of ZvZ anymore.
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On February 07 2013 04:23 NarAliya wrote:
TangSC is the guy who improved both my macro, timing and gamesense with his DRG "Big Bust" guide. Now I have a 100% win rate vs Terrans and I'm not afraid of ZvZ anymore.
Ohhh I wonder if Roach/Ling/Baneling busts will work in HotS...though I feel like widow mines / seige tanks may shut that down, or at least make it harder to execute.
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so when, in your opinion, does this build do best? worst? are there any things you would scout early that would cause you to abandon this build in favor of a macro/defenesive game plan (like early gas, early two gas, etc)?
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EPT
