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On February 09 2013 01:37 Lobotomist wrote:
so when, in your opinion, does this build do best? worst? are there any things you would scout early that would cause you to abandon this build in favor of a macro/defenesive game plan (like early gas, early two gas, etc)?
The only time I wouldn't do the build is if my opponent 2-rax'd, because Roaches will be too late. If they open 1 or 2 gas and I'm lucky enough to scout it, I would play greedy (no Zerglings) and I would execute the Roach/burrow or Roach/Ling opening as early as possible. It's the transition that would depend on what the opponent is doing, but the Roaches will always reveal his tech.
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I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace?
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On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote:
I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace?
After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk.
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On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote:
I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk.
and just add banes vs bio + hellbat? speedovis if they add mines?
does it work with the new even crappier fungal?
i like the idea of roach pressure overall, but what about his openings...are you also doing this vs gas openings where siege tanks or marauder are available and put you far behind because you wont do enough damage? am working on a roach burrow pressure build myself but only doing it vs 1 rax FE or CC first since i have bad results vs gas openers.
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On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote:
I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk.
How does Speedling only work against Hellbats or mass Marines? Do you sprinkle in Banes?
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You , dear Tang, have enlightned my dark day as a Zerg in Hots. I was playing with no ideas, wandering without a clear mission.
Now , i have a plan and a goal: total anihilation of enemies. :D
Thanks
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wow thanks TangSC... I just tried it on the ladder... I'm always ahead even after the roaches are dealt with! one game I was up 70 drones vs the terran's 24 scvs.. like thats seriously a huge advantage
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On February 09 2013 23:58 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote:
I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk. and just add banes vs bio + hellbat? speedovis if they add mines? does it work with the new even crappier fungal? i like the idea of roach pressure overall, but what about his openings...are you also doing this vs gas openings where siege tanks or marauder are available and put you far behind because you wont do enough damage? am working on a roach burrow pressure build myself but only doing it vs 1 rax FE or CC first since i have bad results vs gas openers.
You definitely have the option of mixing in some banelings into the midgame, though I never do - I put all my gas into upgrades/infestors/hive, because I really like the Infestor/Crackling/Ultralisk composition.
Unfortunately fungal is not as good as it used to be, but I still think the infestor/ling midgame is strong.
Yes, I feel confident with Roach openings against gas openers - I actually prefer it.
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On February 10 2013 01:22 raybasto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote:
I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk. How does Speedling only work against Hellbats or mass Marines? Do you sprinkle in Banes?
It's all about the engagement and the army sizes of course, but +1+1 Speedlings can shut down some nasty timings. Sometimes if Terran goes for too early of a push, you can overwhelm it and actually counter-attack and win with pure speedlings off a partially-saturated 3 base economy.
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United Kingdom20327 Posts
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On February 11 2013 01:33 Cyro wrote:
Probes dont have heads
Lmao, I suppose I mean that metaphorically 
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On February 11 2013 00:57 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 23:58 Decendos wrote:On February 09 2013 21:53 TangSC wrote:On February 09 2013 13:52 raybasto wrote:
I was thinking of doing a style similar to yours. The thing is midgame, Roach/Ling isn't very good against Mech or Bio because there isn't much that works well against Marines or Hellbats. How does your midgame compositions usually look like, Roach/Ling/Infestor? If so, how do you deal against Marines or Hellbats? Also, do you have 3 Evos upgrading or just Melee/Carapace? After the initial 8 Roaches, I prefer not to build anymore (Unless Terran is going mech). So my midgame would generally be pure speedling/infestor with 2 evo chambers (1/1 armor/melee). After 2/2 and 6 infestor, I tech hive for Ultralisk. and just add banes vs bio + hellbat? speedovis if they add mines? does it work with the new even crappier fungal? i like the idea of roach pressure overall, but what about his openings...are you also doing this vs gas openings where siege tanks or marauder are available and put you far behind because you wont do enough damage? am working on a roach burrow pressure build myself but only doing it vs 1 rax FE or CC first since i have bad results vs gas openers. You definitely have the option of mixing in some banelings into the midgame, though I never do - I put all my gas into upgrades/infestors/hive, because I really like the Infestor/Crackling/Ultralisk composition. Unfortunately fungal is not as good as it used to be, but I still think the infestor/ling midgame is strong. Yes, I feel confident with Roach openings against gas openers - I actually prefer it. I've still got to play plenty more beta, but infestor/ling midgame seems like it'd get destroyed by mech play
. Maybe a swarmhost transition would be better against mech.
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You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it.
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On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it.
I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds.
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On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds.
What are they doing that's so scary? I've never feared reaper openings ZvT in HotS because it takes so many to kill queens that once roaches pop, there's no gas units to hold the push.
Likewise, TvZ I don't open reaper. But it could be fun?
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On February 16 2013 04:50 AveSharia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. What are they doing that's so scary? I've never feared reaper openings ZvT in HotS because it takes so many to kill queens that once roaches pop, there's no gas units to hold the push. Likewise, TvZ I don't open reaper. But it could be fun?
Reapers are actually good. Once there are 3-4 they are very scary. Since no tech lab requirement 3-4 reapers comes out even faster and since they auto heal they always come back full health. Once you get roaches or ling speed out then it's no longer scary, but unless you are rushing it super fast it is scary until those come out.
Also 3-4 repears still kill queens ^_^.
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On February 16 2013 04:53 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 04:50 AveSharia wrote:On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. What are they doing that's so scary? I've never feared reaper openings ZvT in HotS because it takes so many to kill queens that once roaches pop, there's no gas units to hold the push. Likewise, TvZ I don't open reaper. But it could be fun? Reapers are actually good. Once there are 3-4 they are very scary. Since no tech lab requirement 3-4 reapers comes out even faster and since they auto heal they always come back full health. Once you get roaches or ling speed out then it's no longer scary, but unless you are rushing it super fast it is scary until those come out. Also 3-4 repears still kill queens ^_^.
Neat. On a two player map, could a terran switch into reaper production if they scouted no gas from the zerg? Would that be effective early game(sub 30 supply) or do the timings not line up and there would be to many lings or queens?
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On February 16 2013 04:53 blade55555 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2013 04:50 AveSharia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds. What are they doing that's so scary? I've never feared reaper openings ZvT in HotS because it takes so many to kill queens that once roaches pop, there's no gas units to hold the push. Likewise, TvZ I don't open reaper. But it could be fun? Reapers are actually good. Once there are 3-4 they are very scary. Since no tech lab requirement 3-4 reapers comes out even faster and since they auto heal they always come back full health. Once you get roaches or ling speed out then it's no longer scary, but unless you are rushing it super fast it is scary until those come out. Also 3-4 repears still kill queens ^_^.
Yeah, I was aware that reapers were good, just not TvZ haha. Since I posted that I found this game of Tang's where he loses to a reaper rush, but he didn't actually lose much to the reapers and I'm not sure how it would have gone had he not pulled drones. zergOP (the Terran player - lol) definitely didn't have any power gas units when he got there with roaches, just a marauder in a bunker and a handful of hellions. I don't think it was necessarily a bad decision to pull drones... it just didn't help at all since zOP had hellions.
Maybe the best response isn't to make as many roaches, but rather make a few for defense, and take a third behind it? OTOH, I could see it getting out of hand if the Terran actually did commit harder to reapers... one reactored rax and one naked could make them 3 at a time with minerals to expand and some gas left over to tech. Ultimately it turns into a scouting problem, and I don't think Tang had much information in the replay.
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This match up is so retarded to play right now. Terran can do so many stupid things in the early game, and still be safe because they build 4-6 widow mines, a bunker with 4 marines and/or some hellbats to go along with it. Its very hard to punish a greedy player, so much more difficult then WoL when you had the option to do a roach/bain pressure build and kill some units and SCV's, now you cant even get close to their bunkers and depots because of a couple widow mines sprinkled in front of and behind their wall.
And here I thought they were trying to make the game more aggressive for HotS so we can see some early game micro action, and all we get are cheesy turtle-fest were the Terran have huge defensive capabilities. And thats even compunded by being able to get tanks out with out even getting siege mode.
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On February 16 2013 02:04 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 09:33 goswser wrote:
You can't really be aggressive with roach ling if they open reaper though, because they have full scouting intel so will be prepared for it. I've started running into some really scary early reaper builds.
This is going to sound extreme, but I think your strategy is a build order loss vs Proxy Reapers and that you have to re-adjust your Roach/Burrow timing by Overpooling if you want to beat Proxy Reapers + Bunker at your natural, 16 Gas, 15 Pool is too late for your Pool.
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EPT
