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Really nice, as usual.
What do you favour, pure Roach with burrow? Roach/lings? Or getting both speed and burrow? IMO burrowing roaches makes more sense if you can reinforce with lings. As someone who's done a lot of Roach/Ling attacks in WoL, this attack tends to be over when roaches die. With burrow... it's basically roach/ling with immortal roaches.
Then again it would really both delay the attack, and put more pressure on you to do some damage. With the tank buff, the timing window is already really short in HotS.
Really looking forward to the other ones by the way.
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On February 04 2013 10:15 MilesTeg wrote:
Really nice, as usual.
What do you favour, pure Roach with burrow? Roach/lings? Or getting both speed and burrow? IMO burrowing roaches makes more sense if you can reinforce with lings. As someone who's done a lot of Roach/Ling attacks in WoL, this attack tends to be over when roaches die. With burrow... it's basically roach/ling with immortal roaches.
Then again it would really both delay the attack, and put more pressure on you to do some damage. With the tank buff, the timing window is already really short in HotS.
Really looking forward to the other ones by the way.
I prefer getting either burrow OR speed. . .getting both upgrades is an option, but as you mention it delays your attack which can give Terran enough time to get tech out.
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I've been going for a fairly similar Roach opening, and it works very nicely in random games, since as you said most players are going for hellion/hellbat/reaper openers.
But the majority of my ZvT games are against a practice partner who is smart to my tricks. He found something that seems to be a fairly appropriate response, somewhat similar to what the opponents in your video tried against you, but without "putting all their eggs in one basket".
So if I'm going for one of the early Burrow builds, rather than a ling opener, the game plays out like this... As soon as I reach the point where the rallied Roaches are heading to the enemy base, as the Roaches are halfway across the map, a dropship harass 1 widow mine and some marines comes at both my main and my natural. This is problematic because the Marines target my Queens primarily, and they are the main units left back at the base who can combat the Widow Mines, even more of an issue because the Burrow upgrade caused a sacrifice to the amount of Queens at this point of the game.
Also there's no mobile detection this early, so I've found that I have to drop a Spore at each base just to be able to detect the Widows without my economy being screwed, and hope the Queens don't take too much damage (trying to use Burrow for their advantage) and can hold things off until more units arrive. But given the amount of Queens is sacrificed, usually either the main or natural will be in a bit of trouble.
Now on the Terran side of the field, in your videos they were ill-prepared. But against my partner, as soon as I reach his base, typically a siege tank has just finished producing and is going in to siege mode. Between this, and a couple marines, any harass on his wall is mostly impossible, as that one tank is enough to shut down 7 Roaches (the typical amount I go for), burrow doesn't help too much in this situation as 1 Scan is enough to take out enough roaches. So I'm left with the only option of trying to delay his Natural.
After this sort of opening, I'm not sure it's worth the investment for the Burrow upgrade. This build feels like a pretty strong counter to Burrow opener. I feel much more secure at my main base with a typical opener with more Queen support. But, the potentially bigger problem, after the early scout there is there's no way to differentiate this type of opener from the typical Terran openers shown in your video.
Any advice for getting a Roach + Burrow opener that isn't so easily shut down by this type of Terran opener, which doesn't require much investment by the Terran player? Or should I just face it that early Burrow isn't worth the investment on this Terran opener? Because at the moment, it seems like if I don't get the initial aggression off with the Roaches, the Burrow investment was a waste so early, and could have came later in the game.
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Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell.
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On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell.
Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build.
Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense.
And just to clarify, it's not that his opener puts me so far behind as the problem. The main issue is going early Burrow doesn't actually pay off. It seems better to just go for Queens/Lings as that will help defend the early drop better.
Because as it stands, if going for the early burrow option, either I have to stay back with the roaches to help defend (which loses the advantage of researching Burrow so early) or if I go for Roach aggression, as mentioned the Tank usually is going in to siege mode right as the Roaches reach the base, leaving the Roaches only delaying the natural.
The backbone of his opener vs the early Burrow strat is A) the 2 early Widows to exploit no early detection w/o making spores at both bases as a security blanket, B) the drop timing being exactly around the time Roaches are mid-map if going for early aggression, C) the Tank finishing right as Roaches are approaching, and D) the Marines/Dropship being able to exploit not having as many Queens to make the harass a little harder to deal with.
So mostly the question is, is it worth the early Burrow for the harass being slightly harder to deal with, for only delaying the expansion? I'm not so sure.
Seems the opener w/o rushing to Burrow may be more ideal, as lings and ling speed can help get rid of the marines and the extra queens can handle the Widows, and then can transition in to harassing the Terran natural. Just wondering if I'm missing anything that may make the early burrow a bit more useful, as this opener seems to hold off the Roach harass pretty successfully and make the early burrow mostly insignificant.
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On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. And just to clarify, it's not that his opener puts me so far behind as the problem. The main issue is going early Burrow doesn't actually pay off. It seems better to just go for Queens/Lings as that will help defend the early drop better. Because as it stands, if going for the early burrow option, either I have to stay back with the roaches to help defend (which loses the advantage of researching Burrow so early) or if I go for Roach aggression, as mentioned the Tank usually is going in to siege mode right as the Roaches reach the base, leaving the Roaches only delaying the natural. The backbone of his opener vs the early Burrow strat is A) the 2 early Widows to exploit no early detection w/o making spores at both bases as a security blanket, B) the drop timing being exactly around the time Roaches are mid-map if going for early aggression, C) the Tank finishing right as Roaches are approaching, and D) the Marines/Dropship being able to exploit not having as many Queens to make the harass a little harder to deal with. So mostly the question is, is it worth the early Burrow for the harass being slightly harder to deal with, for only delaying the expansion? I'm not so sure. Seems the opener w/o rushing to Burrow may be more ideal, as lings and ling speed can help get rid of the marines and the extra queens can handle the Widows, and then can transition in to harassing the Terran natural. Just wondering if I'm missing anything that may make the early burrow a bit more useful, as this opener seems to hold off the Roach harass pretty successfully and make the early burrow mostly insignificant.
DRG does a roach push around the same time with 10 roaches. You take the gas at 18, then overlord at 17 and proceed as normal. 3 overlords on 28 then roaches.
I've had more success with it than Tang's build. All the terrans I play overreact to the early gas, so you just kind of end up being even.
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There seems to be alot of mass reaper and battle hellion builds going around right now. Going roaches like this seems like a very good way of detering it imo and in regard to battle hellions the only way. Lings just melt TT
I must admit the ling follow up seems abit allin. Just the roaches are effective imo
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On February 04 2013 20:39 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense. And just to clarify, it's not that his opener puts me so far behind as the problem. The main issue is going early Burrow doesn't actually pay off. It seems better to just go for Queens/Lings as that will help defend the early drop better. Because as it stands, if going for the early burrow option, either I have to stay back with the roaches to help defend (which loses the advantage of researching Burrow so early) or if I go for Roach aggression, as mentioned the Tank usually is going in to siege mode right as the Roaches reach the base, leaving the Roaches only delaying the natural. The backbone of his opener vs the early Burrow strat is A) the 2 early Widows to exploit no early detection w/o making spores at both bases as a security blanket, B) the drop timing being exactly around the time Roaches are mid-map if going for early aggression, C) the Tank finishing right as Roaches are approaching, and D) the Marines/Dropship being able to exploit not having as many Queens to make the harass a little harder to deal with. So mostly the question is, is it worth the early Burrow for the harass being slightly harder to deal with, for only delaying the expansion? I'm not so sure. Seems the opener w/o rushing to Burrow may be more ideal, as lings and ling speed can help get rid of the marines and the extra queens can handle the Widows, and then can transition in to harassing the Terran natural. Just wondering if I'm missing anything that may make the early burrow a bit more useful, as this opener seems to hold off the Roach harass pretty successfully and make the early burrow mostly insignificant. DRG does a roach push around the same time with 10 roaches. You take the gas at 18, then overlord at 17 and proceed as normal. 3 overlords on 28 then roaches. I've had more success with it than Tang's build. All the terrans I play overreact to the early gas, so you just kind of end up being even.
Sorry, I see you bolded the part where I mentioned the opener w/o rushing to Burrow, but am a bit confused by that.
Were you saying in DRG's roch push method he does not rush to Burrow, or he does rush Burrow?
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i can also vouche for this build... as ive told Tangsc before and sent him a picture of it, i went something like 25-7 W/L by only doing this build, its really fast and if u execute it right you will never lose. or at least win 9/10.
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I prefer binding my units the moment i produce them, shift-rally is a lot harder/more time consuming to do. If you bind your units to their control group while they are still in their eggs, they will move just like the rest of your army, instead of blindly walking in to die.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On February 04 2013 23:37 zarasash wrote:
I prefer binding my units the moment i produce them, shift-rally is a lot harder/more time consuming to do. If you bind your units to their control group while they are still in their eggs, they will move just like the rest of your army, instead of blindly walking in to die.
Tang talked about adding eggs to your current unit groups. I do that alltime already and think thats the reason why Terrand and protoss are so uncomfort for me. You can't bind units that are in building process
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Very nice post. Also, thanks to Existor for the banner. This thread is a very good guide to all zerg players. I'm liking the idea of how a simple change in burrow can increase the aggression Zerg can put out in mid and early game and this guide basically perfects the build into an early win vs greedy openings.
I have one quick question. What happens if the Terran opens with mines? I've encountered some very specific 1 based reactor factory openings that obtains only mines with fast 2x cc follow up. The roach pressure is quite powerful, but it comes at a time when there are more than 6 mines with a handful of marines out. Also, the better players always leave groups of forward to snipe off lings that help bait the mines. In this case, i should just obtain a 3rd hatch and drone, but during this moment i'm susceptible to the pressure that's followed by that opening, particularly if he attacks with marines with up 10-12 mines. Should i just balance army/drone at that point?
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another thing to solve the rally problem is to shift click the rally point on several roaches (units in general), so that if one of the roaches with the rally dies there will still be others with the rally point upon them and your units still walk to where the action takes place (i stole this from MMA).
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Good and very detailed guide! Keep up the good job :D
On February 04 2013 18:59 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Do you have any replay? The guy is one-basing and going 1/1/1 right? I would imagine that as long as you react well, and you don't take too much damage in your main you shouldn't be behind. But without seeing it in practice it's hard to tell. Don't have any replays saved of it, but I'm pretty familiar with his build. Yeah he goes 1/1/1, gets the fac/starport up asap, builds 2 widows first thing at fac (before any addons), builds a dropship (before any addons), pumping marines in the meantime. As soon as dropships done, picks up both mines, drops one at my main one at nat, and micros the marines to try to snipe queens while avoiding the other queens. Usually transitions in to main build and expands soon after. The dropship usually reaches the Zerg main base at exactly 7 mins. Also, as soon as the 2nd mine is finished, starts adding on the tech lab, for the siege tanks for defense.
I assume that this is 1 base play. If he does not grab an expansion , and plans for a tank \ marine \ mine all in. Do you realy think a roach all in is a good idea? This is not a build I would do against a 1 base terran (unless mass reaper) . Against a 1 base terran you have better options. (atleast if you do not scout reactor factory)
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On February 04 2013 23:43 Novacute wrote:
Very nice post. Also, thanks to Existor for the banner. This thread is a very good guide to all zerg players. I'm liking the idea of how a simple change in burrow can increase the aggression Zerg can put out in mid and early game and this guide basically perfects the build into an early win vs greedy openings.
I have one quick question. What happens if the Terran opens with mines? I've encountered some very specific 1 based reactor factory openings that obtains only mines with fast 2x cc follow up. The roach pressure is quite powerful, but it comes at a time when there are more than 6 mines with a handful of marines out. Also, the better players always leave groups of forward to snipe off lings that help bait the mines. In this case, i should just obtain a 3rd hatch and drone, but during this moment i'm susceptible to the pressure that's followed by that opening, particularly if he attacks with marines with up 10-12 mines. Should i just balance army/drone at that point?
The first benchmark after your Roach or Roach/Ling aggression is to start your third, get +1+1, Lair, and 4 gas with an optimally saturated main and natural (~44 Drones). This is a crucial balance of tech/economy that you should try to reach before producing any additional units (obviously there will be exceptions). Once you've reached this benchmark, you can produce units off of your 3 Hatcheries - or, if you have map control and your opponent is not attacking you, you can start droning the third earlier. You want to avoid mixing in units to "feel safe" before reaching a nice 2-base saturation, because your opponent will pull ahead whether he attacks or not.
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On February 04 2013 23:37 zarasash wrote:
I prefer binding my units the moment i produce them, shift-rally is a lot harder/more time consuming to do. If you bind your units to their control group while they are still in their eggs, they will move just like the rest of your army, instead of blindly walking in to die.
Well you can shift-rally the actual Hatchery rally points, which takes 2 seconds. That way any units you forget to add to the control group at least travel to your army.
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Very nicely presented guide. Couple of points, though:
1. You describe burrow as a great benefit that you'll address later... and then don't really address it later. I mean, I know it's roach burrow micro, but the lack of detail is at odds with the large amount of detail you go into with overlord and unit rallying etc.
2. Something worth checking out is that if you set off a widow mine with a roach and burrow the roach while the mine is firing, the roach only takes splash damage. I'm almost certain that's the case, and if it is, it's worth including.
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EPT
Could use a little <3:
