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I think people will continue to play terran at low levels where the relative strength of Z and P is very apparent because folks like a challenge. Plus, of all the matchups, TvX is the most entertaining in my opinion. The prospect of ZvZ alone makes me dread ever switching to Z. It looks awful. TvT is quite nice in comparison.
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On January 23 2013 12:39 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 12:30 ultratorr wrote: We should put an APM cost to every task of each race. The APM cost is the amount of APM needed to perform a task "properly", or to come out evenly in a battle. Here's an attempt for LATE GAME. NOTE: I could be TOTALLY wrong in the actual numbers, but at least looking at APM as a resource might be a way to analyze the skill requirements of the 3 races.
This is actually not a huge problem, as assuming only one battle is happening, Z needs 200 APM, T needs 280, P needs 240. The problem is multiple battles and the ability for P to trade APM effectively against T, and for Z to trade APM effectively against both P and T. I've seen many games where T is doing fine when there is only one thing going on, but as soon as P sends a few zealots for T to deal with in the main base, or Z tries to run by with lings or infestors, T suddenly crumbles.
Production: (actions needed for building units, making sure you're not supply blocked, teching, etc.) Z: ~120 P: ~100 T: ~120 Notes: - holding down a key counts as 1 action - this includes creep control - the discrepancy between P and T is mostly a result of T's units building more quickly than P's
Scouting: (actions needed for determining enemy unit composition, avoiding/setting up flanks, spotting drops) Z: ~20 P: ~60 T: ~40 Notes: - T and P need to keep sending spotter units. T has it easier than P because scan is easier than observer micro - this excludes creep control for Z since it was in the last section - Z needs spotter units too, but overlords are easy to place and Z can also use burrowed units
Micro: (actions needed to come out even in a battle, per battle) Z: ~60 P: ~80 T: ~120 Notes: - Z has low APM requirement but also low potential - In terms of amount of finesse required, T>P>Z - This is actually not a big problem if the only thing happening on the map is the main battle
When you were writing this, did it ever occur to you that picking a bunch of arbitrary numbers out of thin air to try to get a point across was a bad idea?
They may not be accurate, but not arbitrary. They're based on experience playing, watching matches, and watching streams.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2013 12:30 ultratorr wrote: We should put an APM cost to every task of each race. The APM cost is the amount of APM needed to perform a task "properly", or to come out evenly in a battle. Here's an attempt for LATE GAME. NOTE: I could be TOTALLY wrong in the actual numbers, but at least looking at APM as a resource might be a way to analyze the skill requirements of the 3 races.
This is actually not a huge problem, as assuming only one battle is happening, Z needs 200 APM, T needs 280, P needs 240. The problem is multiple battles and the ability for P to trade APM effectively against T, and for Z to trade APM effectively against both P and T. I've seen many games where T is doing fine when there is only one thing going on, but as soon as P sends a few zealots for T to deal with in the main base, or Z tries to run by with lings or infestors, T suddenly crumbles.
Production: (actions needed for building units, making sure you're not supply blocked, teching, etc.) Z: ~120 P: ~100 T: ~120 Notes: - holding down a key counts as 1 action - this includes creep control - the discrepancy between P and T is mostly a result of T's units building more quickly than P's
Scouting: (actions needed for determining enemy unit composition, avoiding/setting up flanks, spotting drops) Z: ~20 P: ~60 T: ~40 Notes: - T and P need to keep sending spotter units. T has it easier than P because scan is easier than observer micro - this excludes creep control for Z since it was in the last section - Z needs spotter units too, but overlords are easy to place and Z can also use burrowed units
Micro: (actions needed to come out even in a battle, per battle) Z: ~60 P: ~80 T: ~120 Notes: - Z has low APM requirement but also low potential - In terms of amount of finesse required, T>P>Z - This is actually not a big problem if the only thing happening on the map is the main battle
I like the part where you used random numbers/action to justify that T is the hardest while Z is the easiest race to play O_O
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terran has the least vision and thus the decisions you make have to be right. furthermore terrans constant need of scouting, aka drops and timely scans or even overall just game sense, is what makes bad players struggle. now add on the fact that you need to prepare in ADVANCE for tech swaps, for example heavy chargelot archon requires lots of marines and some ghosts while other comps require more marauders which are 2 dif addons. this makes terrans outright lose to chargelot compositions and then complain protoss is op or whatever.
terran however is the safest race of all 3. your standard terran gameplay covers all requirements to win. if they do some crazy air tech marines and turrets are just baller. if they do some sort of all in guess what bunkers? what about cloaked units, uh scans. terrans can also maintain a macro game vs zerg while protoss sometimes will lose outright because of drone mechanics being far superior. the mule is just the hands down best racial.
if you disagree then explain why in every gsl season there are always tons of terrans and why when you see those terrans win its always amazing. terran wins look impressive more so then some a move z or p army (this is coming from someone who has mained zerg since beta and added on protoss and terran to his skillset) high masters
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On January 23 2013 04:34 kylols wrote: This season of code s (still the highest level of competition) is 15 zerg 15 terran 5 protoss.. Whats imba? :D
sept - dec winrates + Show Spoiler +
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 23 2013 11:18 Divergence wrote: OP pointed out that Terran is underpowered and he got banned.
Why does that not surprise me?
What connection can you possibly think you see here?
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On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well.
You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player).
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On January 23 2013 04:34 kylols wrote: This season of code s (still the highest level of competition) is 15 zerg 15 terran 5 protoss.. Whats imba? :D
16 zergs
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On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player).
terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book?
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On January 24 2013 11:24 sunglasseson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player). terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book?
If what you are insinuating is that if you use the current meta game, and punish droning zergs by doing aggression, saying this is an answer is false. Ask any competent Terran. There is ZERO answer to a multiple queen, fast 3 hatch, mass drone build. Zero aggressive answer. No punishment possible unless they are a very very bad zerg. 11/11 rax is trash, and can even be held by a 3 hatch *before pool*. We got nothing. This is a huge part of the problem. The turtle zerg strat is un punishable.
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On January 24 2013 11:57 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 11:24 sunglasseson wrote:On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player). terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book? If what you are insinuating is that if you use the current meta game, and punish droning zergs by doing aggression, saying this is an answer is false. Ask any competent Terran. There is ZERO answer to a multiple queen, fast 3 hatch, mass drone build. Zero aggressive answer. No punishment possible unless they are a very very bad zerg. 11/11 rax is trash, and can even be held by a 3 hatch *before pool*. We got nothing. This is a huge part of the problem. The turtle zerg strat is un punishable.
i said zerg playstyle was unskilled and terrans was. when a terran wins he outplayed someone but when a zerg wins he just droned in relation to meta game timings
i think you need to not get so defensive on this thread lol. terran can do drops and are very cost effective with whatever army comp vs a zerg who is shackled by tech units that are static in use when compared to a more dynamic terran race overall
terran at its best is unstoppable and currently its just second best. at high levels. welcome to blizzard games where never have they in the past many many many years done a good job with pvp (even BW was imbalanced.... ppl tend to forget) i would be so depressed if i was a pro gamer playing protoss. ive played all 3 races to masters and i love to see any terran go fight a good z as protoss. its depressing that is, if u can ever get a zvp matchup (toss easily the most common mid-low master race) terrans can sometimes at least turtle and beat zergs or deny scouting and do some crazy cheese. protoss vs zerg the zerg gets full disclosure on what tech path and what army comp the entire time
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On January 24 2013 11:24 sunglasseson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player). terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book?
Could u b finishin ur writing books instead of insulting someone who raises gud points?
The only tool terran has to outplay people is micro. This is also a tool that the other races possess. But, the other races also possess other good tools, such as superior macro mechanics, and strong (read: game changing) units.
How anyone can deny the obvious weakness of terran is beyond me entirely. It's plain to see from my own experiences and watching pro games. It's just bad for the game entirely, there is a decline in the terran player base as well as in the viewer ship and entertainment value of watching tournaments. How many times now have we seen zerg or protoss dominate towards the final rounds of tournaments. Many people, including myself are getting really tired of seeing the same mirror match ups as finals.
Personally I'm just tired of SC2 entirely, after I quit playing due to frustration and boredom, I still tuned in and subbed to tournaments, but even they are starting to frustrate and bore me. I'm just tired of seeing the same game played out over and over and over. Pretty much every game I watch now is the same as I've seen a hundred times before. It's kind of sad really.
SC2 failed in my eyes, hopefully HOTS can revitalize my interest but I don't have my hopes up very high.
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Well said sir. Great to see that people see this.
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On January 24 2013 11:57 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 11:24 sunglasseson wrote:On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player). terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book? If what you are insinuating is that if you use the current meta game, and punish droning zergs by doing aggression, saying this is an answer is false. Ask any competent Terran. There is ZERO answer to a multiple queen, fast 3 hatch, mass drone build. Zero aggressive answer. No punishment possible unless they are a very very bad zerg. 11/11 rax is trash, and can even be held by a 3 hatch *before pool*. We got nothing. This is a huge part of the problem. The turtle zerg strat is un punishable.
Stop exaggerating, 3 hatch before pool = no lings and no spines. If terran fails against ONLY drones, then he is fucking terrible and should rightly lose.
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On January 24 2013 12:10 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 11:57 Iron_ wrote:On January 24 2013 11:24 sunglasseson wrote:On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player). terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book? If what you are insinuating is that if you use the current meta game, and punish droning zergs by doing aggression, saying this is an answer is false. Ask any competent Terran. There is ZERO answer to a multiple queen, fast 3 hatch, mass drone build. Zero aggressive answer. No punishment possible unless they are a very very bad zerg. 11/11 rax is trash, and can even be held by a 3 hatch *before pool*. We got nothing. This is a huge part of the problem. The turtle zerg strat is un punishable. Stop exaggerating, 3 hatch before pool = no lings and no spines. If terran fails against ONLY drones, then he is fucking terrible and should rightly lose.
I was told by a reliable good player that I get tips from often that Scarlett beat a Korean 11/11 rax with 3 hatch before pool. I never bothered to look it up because honestly, if I watched that, I'd probably just quit. This may be misinformation and if so I apologize. I will research this to find out.
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On January 24 2013 12:09 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 11:24 sunglasseson wrote:On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player). terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book? Could u b finishin ur writing books instead of insulting someone who raises gud points? The only tool terran has to outplay people is micro. This is also a tool that the other races possess. But, the other races also possess other good tools, such as superior macro mechanics, and strong (read: game changing) units. How anyone can deny the obvious weakness of terran is beyond me entirely. It's plain to see from my own experiences and watching pro games. It's just bad for the game entirely, there is a decline in the terran player base as well as in the viewer ship and entertainment value of watching tournaments. How many times now have we seen zerg or protoss dominate towards the final rounds of tournaments. Many people, including myself are getting really tired of seeing the same mirror match ups as finals. Personally I'm just tired of SC2 entirely, after I quit playing due to frustration and boredom, I still tuned in and subbed to tournaments, but even they are starting to frustrate and bore me. I'm just tired of seeing the same game played out over and over and over. Pretty much every game I watch now is the same as I've seen a hundred times before. It's kind of sad really. SC2 failed in my eyes, hopefully HOTS can revitalize my interest but I don't have my hopes up very high.
zerg and protoss cannot through standard play do multi pronged harass/attacks from an early point in a game till late. the fact that medivacs are part of your standard terran army at around 9-11mins opens up that window in a far safer way. a zerg who invests heavily in drop play at that time risks death to all ins or falling behind in tech as does a protoss player. not to mention that protoss and zerg drops lack that insane dps that 8 marines or 4 marauders bring to the table
sc2 is an economy RTS. that being said the race with the BEST macro is the BEST race. is it any surprise that protoss the easiest and zerg the best macro race have the most ladder representation? is it then any surprise that the race with the best multi task which is a harder skill to obtain is doing poorly on ladder but then well in tournys? sure the latest patches have not been pretty for terran but early years terran (2 years lol...) they were good and zerg was the worst race ( i played z back then it wasnt as pretty playing such an unfigured out race vs proxy reaper and blue flame helion drops)
the only way to not go crazy in this game is to do 1 of 2 things. FOTM reroll. ur playing a video game balanced by idiots, FOTM reroll and u will always be playing the best race. stop crying and understand that the race that you play is your best race and going through a hard time. its just a game and while u prob cant win GSL as terran as easily as zerg you can def get masters and GM.
blizzard doesnt even hire pro gamers to balance the games they have. they have failed for years and years and years myself and friends who are in GM have actually quit sc2 for dota (i didnt cant stand moba) for the very reasons you talk about (they dont even play terran) but its just beating a dead horse at a certain point and the only statement you can actually make is "terran can win any game but has to earn it far more then the other 2 races"
edit - not to mention we are having a spectacularly ignorant discussion with people who think 11/11 rax can be held by 3 hatch before pool. its one of the most foolish personality traits a person has to take information he doesnt know anything about from SOMEONE ELSE, then recant that information as FACT. "misinformed" is a kind understatement to the BS that your type would spew on a daily basis over forums
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On January 24 2013 13:00 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 12:10 BigBossX wrote:On January 24 2013 11:57 Iron_ wrote:On January 24 2013 11:24 sunglasseson wrote:On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player). terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book? If what you are insinuating is that if you use the current meta game, and punish droning zergs by doing aggression, saying this is an answer is false. Ask any competent Terran. There is ZERO answer to a multiple queen, fast 3 hatch, mass drone build. Zero aggressive answer. No punishment possible unless they are a very very bad zerg. 11/11 rax is trash, and can even be held by a 3 hatch *before pool*. We got nothing. This is a huge part of the problem. The turtle zerg strat is un punishable. Stop exaggerating, 3 hatch before pool = no lings and no spines. If terran fails against ONLY drones, then he is fucking terrible and should rightly lose. I was told by a reliable good player that I get tips from often that Scarlett beat a Korean 11/11 rax with 3 hatch before pool. I never bothered to look it up because honestly, if I watched that, I'd probably just quit. This may be misinformation and if so I apologize. I will research this to find out.
It could probably be done. Just like it's possible to kill a zealot with 1 marine. It's all about execution and really 3 hatch before pool can't stop an 11/11 a vast vast vast majority of the time
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The worst-growing economy. Production that is the slowest to come online. Most infrastructure needed. Rigid infrastructure. Basically all high tech units are narrow anti-one-unit counters that aren't at all scary otherwise. All upgrade branches separate and expensive. On average the most blind faction in the game. Strong point in timing attacks - that are nerfed constantly. Fragile. AoE typically diminishes over distance and hurts own units. Late game based primarily on mass production infrastructure.
Good micro potential. Excellent base composition with high DPS. Drop play. Can leverage small-scale tactical situations excellently with Banshees and Tanks. Scan for momentary glimpses at the expense of macro. (Still good obv.) Quite good at the absolute late game that it rarely reaches. Good at getting a little bit of something out early.
All is good in the world. Let's contrast with mah bugs:
Fastest-growing economy Production comes online decently quick, but nothing spectacular. Tech is expensive, production infrastructure as cheap as can be. Production is flexible to the point of absurdity. Can drone like a nutcase while impervious to all but the most dedicated all-in. Macro mechanic = Roach that shoots up and heals. (Sanity, where are you?) Basically all high tech units are threats - good in any case unless the opponent literally has nothing left on the ground. Very efficient production. Good units overall. Ridiculous map control basically for free. Reaches lategame very quickly, lategame based primarily on stage of tech. Excellent burst damage potential with mass IT.
Not much micro potential (not much of it needed usually either) Roaches don't function well in the late game due to supply inefficiency. Hydras suck. Teching to T2 can be slow. (But you're impervious to nearly anything before that.) Forcefields are annoying as hell. More so than usual. Someone, please keelhaul whoever came up with FF. Laying siege without Broods is hard. Thankfully they now come at 12 minutes instead of 17.
So, can anyone guess why I quit?
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On January 24 2013 13:11 sunglasseson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 12:09 BigBossX wrote:On January 24 2013 11:24 sunglasseson wrote:On January 24 2013 10:15 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 11:12 Fencar wrote:On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often. This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well. You are the only Terran player in the world crushing zergs with timing attacks, so by all means, please share your secrets! (Or more likely are a trolling z or p player). terran has the tools to outplay people but zerg and protoss do not. if you call droning based on current meta builds and then massing based on current timings skill then shouldnt u be finishing up that coloring book? Could u b finishin ur writing books instead of insulting someone who raises gud points? The only tool terran has to outplay people is micro. This is also a tool that the other races possess. But, the other races also possess other good tools, such as superior macro mechanics, and strong (read: game changing) units. How anyone can deny the obvious weakness of terran is beyond me entirely. It's plain to see from my own experiences and watching pro games. It's just bad for the game entirely, there is a decline in the terran player base as well as in the viewer ship and entertainment value of watching tournaments. How many times now have we seen zerg or protoss dominate towards the final rounds of tournaments. Many people, including myself are getting really tired of seeing the same mirror match ups as finals. Personally I'm just tired of SC2 entirely, after I quit playing due to frustration and boredom, I still tuned in and subbed to tournaments, but even they are starting to frustrate and bore me. I'm just tired of seeing the same game played out over and over and over. Pretty much every game I watch now is the same as I've seen a hundred times before. It's kind of sad really. SC2 failed in my eyes, hopefully HOTS can revitalize my interest but I don't have my hopes up very high. zerg and protoss cannot through standard play do multi pronged harass/attacks from an early point in a game till late. the fact that medivacs are part of your standard terran army at around 9-11mins opens up that window in a far safer way. a zerg who invests heavily in drop play at that time risks death to all ins or falling behind in tech as does a protoss player. not to mention that protoss and zerg drops lack that insane dps that 8 marines or 4 marauders bring to the table sc2 is an economy RTS. that being said the race with the BEST macro is the BEST race. is it any surprise that protoss the easiest and zerg the best macro race have the most ladder representation? is it then any surprise that the race with the best multi task which is a harder skill to obtain is doing poorly on ladder but then well in tournys? sure the latest patches have not been pretty for terran but early years terran (2 years lol...) they were good and zerg was the worst race ( i played z back then it wasnt as pretty playing such an unfigured out race vs proxy reaper and blue flame helion drops) the only way to not go crazy in this game is to do 1 of 2 things. FOTM reroll. ur playing a video game balanced by idiots, FOTM reroll and u will always be playing the best race. stop crying and understand that the race that you play is your best race and going through a hard time. its just a game and while u prob cant win GSL as terran as easily as zerg you can def get masters and GM. blizzard doesnt even hire pro gamers to balance the games they have. they have failed for years and years and years myself and friends who are in GM have actually quit sc2 for dota (i didnt cant stand moba) for the very reasons you talk about (they dont even play terran) but its just beating a dead horse at a certain point and the only statement you can actually make is "terran can win any game but has to earn it far more then the other 2 races" edit - not to mention we are having a spectacularly ignorant discussion with people who think 11/11 rax can be held by 3 hatch before pool. its one of the most foolish personality traits a person has to take information he doesnt know anything about from SOMEONE ELSE, then recant that information as FACT. "misinformed" is a kind understatement to the BS that your type would spew on a daily basis over forums
Rofl what the fuck is this, it's like you replied to me, but didn't actually say anything directly to me. That, or you just didn't read at all. I practically agree with you on all points except "terran has the tools to outplay people". Are you serious? this magic tool that wins terran games is just early/mid game drops? something that terran has been doing since launch, and toss and zerg have gotten so so SOOO good at defending? Get a clue please, before spouting this nonsense.
And I love how the one thing you don't comment on in your whole stupid rant, is how fast and hard terran get nerfed. You cry about reapers and blue flame hellions, but hey they got nerfed to the fucking ground as soon as they were used, same with pretty much everything else terran. A lot of the frustration myself and others feel is based purely on this, blizz would nerf the shit out of terran in heartbeat without a second thought, then let zerg rape face with infestors for over half a year(and continue to do so)? Fuck. That. Shit.
Also about your edit, seriously learn to read, I called the guy out on that 11/11 being held by 3 hatch before pool, so don't lump me in the same boat as "my misinformed type". Jesus christ you're a true waste of space
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Well, no worries, because at some point it was the highest played race, and such threads did not exist. No big deal.
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