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Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races.
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On January 23 2013 00:14 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 23:01 graNite wrote:On January 22 2013 22:45 Scootaloo wrote:
Ah I think I understand what you mean, when protoss loses high value units on the retreat it's ok, but when terran loses medi's and ghosts it's a massive problem because you only play terran, right? Because HTs and Sentrys are in the back, Protoss only leaves Zealots behind, the high-hp unit that can take many terran shots. HTs and Sentrys also prevent the Terran from followingn by using Forcefield or Storm. If you lose your ghosts before they EMP the templar, you lose. If you lose your Vikings before they shoot down all Colossi, you lose. If you lose all your Medivacs, it's not that critical, but it is also very hard because you cant kite any more. Feedback, range 9 EMP, range 10 Can you be more wrong? Not to mention that you only have to EMP a HT cluster once, HT's have to feedback every single Ghost, who, by the way, can also cloak, also, if your only solution for stopping storm is snipe you're clearly not understanding how ghosts work, and feedback hardly ever outright kills a ghost. .
While this is not entirely on topic, I feel the need to respond to this one. First of all, you are auto assuming protoss will have a "HT cluster". This is NOT good protoss play. Your templars should and can be spread (ask Parting) which means that in such situations snipe would be more effective than emp.
Of course in situations where you have 15-20 ghosts (like Dream used recently) than of course ghosts will win easilly because they outnumber the templars and other priority units combined and you have ability to just blanket everything. But even then, by good observer usage protoss can lay templar traps to terran (I think there was also a game between Yoda and Parting that illustrates this well.)
You will need 2 snipes vs. 1 feedback (if it doesn't kill the ghost it will drain his energy) not to mention feedback is instant and lands before the animation, snipe is executed after the animation and it is not instant.
If you issue feedback and 2 snipes in a custom map and let computer do its thing you will see that in such ideal scenario templar will win over the ghost.
Also, if you are using emp and templars have full energy you would need to hit them 2 times to stop them from being able to storm because if there are like 5 templars and you drain some of their energy that still means protoss can drop 2-3 storms on top of your units which will in most cases be more than enough.
Also, since templars are slow, they will often be in the back of the army which means terran will need to lead with the ghost, wich can be really scary for such valuable units to be in front of the army and they can easily get slaughtered by the deathball.
Lastly, storm really doesn't need to be that precise because you can hit everything in a bio ball, it works fine even vs. vikings and medivacs, unlike emp who needs to land on specific targets like ht, sentries, archons.
I am not saying using ghosts is way more difficult than using high templars but you are reducing the discussion to 9 vs 10 range, which is oversimplifying the ghost vs. templar fights.
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If you have a ht cluster it means you are complete shit. Plz dont comment in pvt balance anymore.
User was warned for this post
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HT clumping still happens to pro's I'm sure we'll see you in the next GSL Rui.S.
Snipe is fun and such but as you say yourself, it has has a delay, so use EMP, 10 range and you take down any close spellcasters and drain shields, problem solved.
And you dont need to lead with your ghosts, just do some scans before and during the engagement to see where they are, adapt, problem solved.
HT's are (usually) stronger vs armies then Ghosts, while ghosts are better anti-spellcasters, but as protoss needs AOE spellcasters more and terran needs anti-spellcasters more this is all fine and well.
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On January 22 2013 23:45 murkk wrote:
You have two ways of looking at SC2. One is the e-Sport scene, which encompasses maybe 100 top players, 90 from Korea. From this vantage, there really is no imbalance.
Pro TvZ is not at all balanced. I would have less of a problem with Terran being the hardest race but you see the top Terran players losing to inferior zerg players so that is why every Terran is so butt-hurt about it.
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Pros do not clump their hts, at most it'll be like 2 or 3 when they have 10
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it's a good thing zerg is fair otherwise this game might not be fun
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Starcraft was always balanced towards the top level of play. When I watch Proleague or GSL Terran seems to do ok, overall. Had some bad months (accomodating to patch changes), but is now back in shape. I don't care if less players choose to play terran in lower leagues, things have to be balanced for the top level, and there balance seems to be halfway ok right now.
If the metagame is entertaining or not is another question though.
For me this is just a nicely disguised balance whine
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Glanced over the book you wrote, and wanted to make a few points.
Firstly, when WoL first came out T being the campaign race lead to a large majority of players playing T in the multiplayer so they wouldn't have to spend as much time re training themselves. Additionally early on in the game T was very powerful and very easy to use being games were short and T was extremely strong in the early stages of the game.
Then you saw balance changes and meta game shifts, through these T became a lot more difficult to play with and required higher and higher amounts of mechanical skill to be successful with. As such you started to see especially the fair weather players try to shift to races that felt easier to win with.
Whether or not you'll see any more race population moves will largely depend on ease of play at the lowest levels and balance at the higher levels. I think overall it's far to early into HoTS to really determine how that will pan out come release. Changes in balance and the meta game could make any race more favorable for a multitude of reasons. But in the end I think you are worrying to much about where game design will go with a game that has yet to even be released.
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This season of code s (still the highest level of competition) is 15 zerg 15 terran 5 protoss.. Whats imba? :D
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On January 23 2013 04:34 kylols wrote:
This season of code s (still the highest level of competition) is 15 zerg 15 terran 5 protoss.. Whats imba? :D
Guess what, :D A lot of koreans play terran :D
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On January 23 2013 04:34 kylols wrote:
This season of code s (still the highest level of competition) is 15 zerg 15 terran 5 protoss.. Whats imba? :D Because all of here play in Code S, right? Stick to the topic.
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On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote:
Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races.
Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often.
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I dont really have a problem with ghost vs ht when that's all they have, but when collo's come out it becomes really stressful for me (terran). even one collo is hard to deal with in ghost vs ht micro. usually the ht are in the back behind the collo (most toss have them on a separate hotkey and move it second) which means all i can emp is their main army or retreat. and most toss get at least a couple collo vs transitioning to ht  .
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On January 19 2013 02:06 mvdunecats wrote:
My struggles as a Gold League Terran lately have centered around the following reasons for losing:
- "You just need to macro better."
- "You didn't have the right army composition, you need to scout better."
While I understand that both of those elements are important, it feels like I'm fighting an up-hill battle in any non-mirror match up as a Terran. I can't simply focus on macro against Toss or Zerg because their late game armies are simply too powerful. I have to be at least as good on my macro AND be doing constant harassment to my Toss or Zerg opponent. Meanwhile, a Toss or a Zerg can just focus purely on macro and be just fine. I've heard plenty of comments like, "Of course you lost, you let the Toss/Zerg sit back and tech." I've never heard that said about losing to a Terran.
Scouting for army composition is another issue. In TvP, I need to know roughly how many Colossi and how many HT/Archons my opponent has to be able to balance my composition correctly. The same thing with TvZ. I'm having to respond to my opponent's composition. As a Terran in those match ups, is there any army composition that a Toss or Zerg has to worry about scouting ahead of time that will change their composition? It doesn't feel like the other two races have to respond to my composition nearly as much as I do to theirs.
Well they do need to worry about your composition too. Im also a gold terran, you just need to use different strats. Do proxy 2 rax, do 7 minute banshees, do something that isnt standard. Your right, you cant just sit there and let zerg tech because then you will surely lose. Just have a plan and make a 10 minute or so push with bio with 1/1 upgrades. Do something, but dont play standard cause you will probably get wrecked until your mechanics get better.
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On January 23 2013 09:49 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote:
Here's my 2 cents on the matter.
TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked.
When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on.
When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ.
When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background.
After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. Nice post. I particularly like how you articulated how loses as Terran feel like a complete crushing, and wins are these barely pull it out of your ass type of games. I don't ever crush a P or Z ever, but get crushed by some all in or just a basic infestor to brood strat (or have my army disappear to HTs), quite often.
This isn't my experience. Personally, I crush Zerg and Protoss players quite often with my first few attacks. No, they're not all-in. They're standard play. If I lose I know what I did wrong, as well.
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I don't understand a need for this thread.
Terran has never had trouble with representation at the top levels of starcraft.
They have been the most represented race in the GSL since 2010, only this season, have they dropped to second place, by just one player in Code S (due to polt withdrawing).
If anything people should cry more about protoss sucking in major tournaments.
Also, if there are lower level players who don't enjoy playing as terran, then just don't pick terran!
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OP pointed out that Terran is underpowered and he got banned.
Why does that not surprise me?
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We should put an APM cost to every task of each race. The APM cost is the amount of APM needed to perform a task "properly", or to come out evenly in a battle. Here's an attempt for LATE GAME. NOTE: I could be TOTALLY wrong in the actual numbers, but at least looking at APM as a resource might be a way to analyze the skill requirements of the 3 races.
This is actually not a huge problem, as assuming only one battle is happening, Z needs 200 APM, T needs 280, P needs 240. The problem is multiple battles and the ability for P to trade APM effectively against T, and for Z to trade APM effectively against both P and T. I've seen many games where T is doing fine when there is only one thing going on, but as soon as P sends a few zealots for T to deal with in the main base, or Z tries to run by with lings or infestors, T suddenly crumbles.
Production: (actions needed for building units, making sure you're not supply blocked, teching, etc.)
Z: ~120
P: ~100
T: ~120
Notes:
- holding down a key counts as 1 action
- this includes creep control
- the discrepancy between P and T is mostly a result of T's units building more quickly than P's
Scouting: (actions needed for determining enemy unit composition, avoiding/setting up flanks, spotting drops)
Z: ~20
P: ~60
T: ~40
Notes:
- T and P need to keep sending spotter units. T has it easier than P because scan is easier than observer micro
- this excludes creep control for Z since it was in the last section
- Z needs spotter units too, but overlords are easy to place and Z can also use burrowed units
Micro: (actions needed to come out even in a battle, per battle)
Z: ~60
P: ~80
T: ~120
Notes:
- Z has low APM requirement but also low potential
- In terms of amount of finesse required, T>P>Z
- This is actually not a big problem if the only thing happening on the map is the main battle
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On January 23 2013 12:30 ultratorr wrote:
We should put an APM cost to every task of each race. The APM cost is the amount of APM needed to perform a task "properly", or to come out evenly in a battle. Here's an attempt for LATE GAME. NOTE: I could be TOTALLY wrong in the actual numbers, but at least looking at APM as a resource might be a way to analyze the skill requirements of the 3 races.
This is actually not a huge problem, as assuming only one battle is happening, Z needs 200 APM, T needs 280, P needs 240. The problem is multiple battles and the ability for P to trade APM effectively against T, and for Z to trade APM effectively against both P and T. I've seen many games where T is doing fine when there is only one thing going on, but as soon as P sends a few zealots for T to deal with in the main base, or Z tries to run by with lings or infestors, T suddenly crumbles.
Production: (actions needed for building units, making sure you're not supply blocked, teching, etc.)
Z: ~120
P: ~100
T: ~120
Notes:
- holding down a key counts as 1 action
- this includes creep control
- the discrepancy between P and T is mostly a result of T's units building more quickly than P's
Scouting: (actions needed for determining enemy unit composition, avoiding/setting up flanks, spotting drops)
Z: ~20
P: ~60
T: ~40
Notes:
- T and P need to keep sending spotter units. T has it easier than P because scan is easier than observer micro
- this excludes creep control for Z since it was in the last section
- Z needs spotter units too, but overlords are easy to place and Z can also use burrowed units
Micro: (actions needed to come out even in a battle, per battle)
Z: ~60
P: ~80
T: ~120
Notes:
- Z has low APM requirement but also low potential
- In terms of amount of finesse required, T>P>Z
- This is actually not a big problem if the only thing happening on the map is the main battle
When you were writing this, did it ever occur to you that picking a bunch of arbitrary numbers out of thin air to try to get a point across was a bad idea?
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EPT
