EPTIs Terran to remain the lowest played race? - Page 19
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On January 23 2013 11:18 Divergence wrote: OP pointed out that Terran is underpowered and he got banned. Why does that not surprise me? Actually he got banned for another thread that was nothing but calling everyone scrub and whining he couldn't win. | ||
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
On January 25 2013 00:24 TsGBruzze wrote: Even as a terran/zerg i laugh at this, why did not these thread came up when zerg was the hardest? You're joking right? There where multitudes of these for Zerg and Protoss when they drew the short end of the balancing stick, usually they where deleted more quickly, quite frankly, I don't understand why this one is alive, it's just a long terran whine rant, shedding tears and fearing they will always be the weakest from now on, because that is how balance works right? Not like Blizzard has ever buffed a race before that had been doing terribly. Races whine when they're doing bad in the metagame, hell, humans whine when they're doing bad in life, just sad to see TL actually keeping this thread alive instead of removing it like has been the custom the last 2 years. To all the terrans in here, I want to extend a tissue and the reasurances that the balancing wheel, like always, will turn around. | ||
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Dumbledore
Sweden725 Posts
On January 19 2013 01:15 FutureBreedMachine wrote: Well I suppose you're right. I'm saying that at a Korean Pro level, most races are relatively balanced, however at lower levels I would say there is an imbalance. Thanks for pointing that out. I don't get the argument "At a lower level it's not balanced"... It's not balanced because you lack skill? This is not balance's fault, it's your lack of skills fault. It is balanced, you're just not good enough. :S | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On January 25 2013 01:09 Dumbledore wrote: I don't get the argument "At a lower level it's not balanced"... It's not balanced because you lack skill? This is not balance's fault, it's your lack of skills fault. It is balanced, you're just not good enough. :S This is balance in a game about economy? On January 24 2013 21:31 Coffee Zombie wrote: The worst-growing economy. Production that is the slowest to come online. Most infrastructure needed. Rigid infrastructure. Basically all high tech units are narrow anti-one-unit counters that aren't at all scary otherwise. All upgrade branches separate and expensive. On average the most blind faction in the game. Strong point in timing attacks - that are nerfed constantly. Fragile. AoE typically diminishes over distance and hurts own units. Late game based primarily on mass production infrastructure. Good micro potential. Excellent base composition with high DPS. Drop play. Can leverage small-scale tactical situations excellently with Banshees and Tanks. Scan for momentary glimpses at the expense of macro. (Still good obv.) Quite good at the absolute late game that it rarely reaches. Good at getting a little bit of something out early. All is good in the world. Let's contrast with mah bugs: Fastest-growing economy Production comes online decently quick, but nothing spectacular. Tech is expensive, production infrastructure as cheap as can be. Production is flexible to the point of absurdity. Can drone like a nutcase while impervious to all but the most dedicated all-in. Macro mechanic = Roach that shoots up and heals. (Sanity, where are you?) Basically all high tech units are threats - good in any case unless the opponent literally has nothing left on the ground. Very efficient production. Good units overall. Ridiculous map control basically for free. Reaches lategame very quickly, lategame based primarily on stage of tech. Excellent burst damage potential with mass IT. Not much micro potential (not much of it needed usually either) Roaches don't function well in the late game due to supply inefficiency. Hydras suck. Teching to T2 can be slow. (But you're impervious to nearly anything before that.) Forcefields are annoying as hell. More so than usual. Someone, please keelhaul whoever came up with FF. Laying siege without Broods is hard. Thankfully they now come at 12 minutes instead of 17. So, can anyone guess why I quit? | ||
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
On January 24 2013 21:31 Coffee Zombie wrote: The worst-growing economy. Production that is the slowest to come online. Most infrastructure needed. Rigid infrastructure. Basically all high tech units are narrow anti-one-unit counters that aren't at all scary otherwise. All upgrade branches separate and expensive. On average the most blind faction in the game. Strong point in timing attacks - that are nerfed constantly. Fragile. AoE typically diminishes over distance and hurts own units. Late game based primarily on mass production infrastructure. Good micro potential. Excellent base composition with high DPS. Drop play. Can leverage small-scale tactical situations excellently with Banshees and Tanks. Scan for momentary glimpses at the expense of macro. (Still good obv.) Quite good at the absolute late game that it rarely reaches. Good at getting a little bit of something out early. All is good in the world. Let's contrast with mah bugs: Fastest-growing economy Production comes online decently quick, but nothing spectacular. Tech is expensive, production infrastructure as cheap as can be. Production is flexible to the point of absurdity. Can drone like a nutcase while impervious to all but the most dedicated all-in. Macro mechanic = Roach that shoots up and heals. (Sanity, where are you?) Basically all high tech units are threats - good in any case unless the opponent literally has nothing left on the ground. Very efficient production. Good units overall. Ridiculous map control basically for free. Reaches lategame very quickly, lategame based primarily on stage of tech. Excellent burst damage potential with mass IT. Not much micro potential (not much of it needed usually either) Roaches don't function well in the late game due to supply inefficiency. Hydras suck. Teching to T2 can be slow. (But you're impervious to nearly anything before that.) Forcefields are annoying as hell. More so than usual. Someone, please keelhaul whoever came up with FF. Laying siege without Broods is hard. Thankfully they now come at 12 minutes instead of 17. So, can anyone guess why I quit? Wow, I'm impressed, that's like balance whining poetry, a stream of terran tears forming a beautiful waterfall of butthurt. Y'know, in that time you could've done a lot of things, played the game, write some actual poetry, or learn to realize that Blizzard will eventually balance things into Terrans favor again, y'know, like they always have. Oh, and thanks for making me rediscover why I read these threads. | ||
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vNmMasterT
68 Posts
On January 25 2013 01:21 Scootaloo wrote: Wow, I'm impressed, that's like balance whining poetry, a stream of terran tears forming a beautiful waterfall of butthurt. Y'know, in that time you could've done a lot of things, played the game, write some actual poetry, or learn to realize that Blizzard will eventually balance things into Terrans favor again, y'know, like they always have. Oh, and thanks for making me rediscover why I read these threads. Actually I think one of the problems is that professional Terran players are not “whining” enough even though the situation has been abysmal for a long time. They need to grow some balls to speak out the gameplay issues that are plaguing Terrans. I guess the early Korean Terran dominance has really discouraged this, but they are literally losing money due to the incompetence of Blizzard balance team. If only players like Idra and Nerchio play Terran I am 100% sure this situation would not happen. | ||
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Mortal
2943 Posts
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
On January 25 2013 01:21 Scootaloo wrote: Wow, I'm impressed, that's like balance whining poetry, a stream of terran tears forming a beautiful waterfall of butthurt. Y'know, in that time you could've done a lot of things, played the game, write some actual poetry, or learn to realize that Blizzard will eventually balance things into Terrans favor again, y'know, like they always have. Oh, and thanks for making me rediscover why I read these threads. LOL you are the funniest guy in this thread. You obviously don't give a shit about having a balanced and fun game to watch/play and are just enjoying all the cheap and free wins everywhere. Why don't you learn to realize Blizzard aren't going to actually do a fucking thing to fix terran, terran has been in this state for so long with little to no changes. Were other races neglected like this? No. Were/are other races nerfed to the ground as fast and brutally as terran have been? Fuck no. Blizzard won't fix terran, they want you to buy HOTS instead of fixing what is broken in WOL. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 24 2013 13:11 sunglasseson wrote: edit - not to mention we are having a spectacularly ignorant discussion with people who think 11/11 rax can be held by 3 hatch before pool. its one of the most foolish personality traits a person has to take information he doesnt know anything about from SOMEONE ELSE, then recant that information as FACT. "misinformed" is a kind understatement to the BS that your type would spew on a daily basis over forums Actually you're the ignorant one on this since there are two instances of pro games in which a Zerg won with triple Hatchery before Pool (3HBP) against 11/11: Happy vs rorO, Entombed Valley (?), Code S Season 5; and GuMiho vs Scarlett, Khaydaria, Ritmix RSL III. Of course a proper 11/11 auto-wins against 3HBP, but if Terran does not scout the main, mistakes Zerg's passivity for the “stall on 1 base for Speedlings/Banes” strategy (which is one of the possibilities when defending 2 rax) and hesitates to enter the main or does so too timidly, Zerg can have enough time to mass Zerglings and overcome the Bunker contain. Check facts before bashing people. | ||
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
On January 25 2013 02:03 TheDwf wrote: Actually you're the ignorant one on this since there are two instances of pro games in which a Zerg won with triple Hatchery before Pool (3HBP) against 11/11: Happy vs rorO, Entombed Valley (?), Code S Season 5; and GuMiho vs Scarlett, Khaydaria, Ritmix RSL III. Of course a proper 11/11 auto-wins against 3HBP, but if Terran does not scout the main, mistakes Zerg's passivity for the “stall on 1 base for Speedlings/Banes” strategy (which is one of the possibilities when defending 2 rax) and hesitates to enter the main or does so too timidly, Zerg can have enough time to mass Zerglings and overcome the Bunker contain. Check facts before bashing people. Thanks TheDwf, I was not having any luck finding the example games. I understand that usually 11/11 should win this, however with 2 pro examples that show otherwise, I think that is 2 examples too many. It is just another strong reminder of how ridiculously safe zerg is to any manner of aggression. But hey.... we have a WIDOW mine soon!...................... fucking sigh | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
On January 25 2013 01:09 Dumbledore wrote: I don't get the argument "At a lower level it's not balanced"... It's not balanced because you lack skill? This is not balance's fault, it's your lack of skills fault. It is balanced, you're just not good enough. :S Actually I think it is a valid argument. If the game is unplayable for leagues under Master - GM, people will stop playing. And by stopping playing they will lose their interest in the game which will cause less views, thus attracting less sponsors, decreasing prizepool, making teams unable to pay their players untill they stop. So the balance is an issue for everyone, even for Blizzard, who gets money from every tournament. You need a crowd if you want growth. Stop beeing so arrogant. | ||
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
On January 25 2013 01:37 vNmMasterT wrote: Actually I think one of the problems is that professional Terran players are not “whining” enough even though the situation has been abysmal for a long time. They need to grow some balls to speak out the gameplay issues that are plaguing Terrans. I guess the early Korean Terran dominance has really discouraged this, but they are literally losing money due to the incompetence of Blizzard balance team. If only players like Idra and Nerchio play Terran I am 100% sure this situation would not happen. Zerg and Toss being in shit positions carried on for months as well, and from what I heard from shows like SotG and ItG, pro's are vocal about Terran issues as well, don't you remember how long that went on until Blizzard buffed the infestor, which, in part because of it coinciding with zergs figuring out some nifty new strategies, lead to a shitton more balance problems, in Zerg's favor this time. Blizzard just needs a long time to figure out what and how they should patch, this can be frustrating for players, but do you honestly expect their patching policy to change after years of the same pace? And mind you, when they fix things they still tend to overbuff a single unit in favor of a proper redesign of mechanics like the warpgate or larva production that has been called for practically since release. On January 25 2013 01:52 BigBossX wrote: LOL you are the funniest guy in this thread. You obviously don't give a shit about having a balanced and fun game to watch/play and are just enjoying all the cheap and free wins everywhere. Why don't you learn to realize Blizzard aren't going to actually do a fucking thing to fix terran, terran has been in this state for so long with little to no changes. Were other races neglected like this? No. Were/are other races nerfed to the ground as fast and brutally as terran have been? Fuck no. Blizzard won't fix terran, they want you to buy HOTS instead of fixing what is broken in WOL. Oh, I do care about balancing, mostly from a spectators point of view, but still, this is just how balancing works, Blizzard takes their sweet time and eventually patch some problems, often leading to other balance issues. Other races where neglected like this, or even more, as it is Terran is still the most thoroughly designed race, with the most unit's, buildings and build orders. In the months and months that Zerg was doing badly, you could find posts like yours on every balance whine thread, hell, it almost sounds like you're channeling the spirit of 2011 Idra, these sentiments that Blizzard doesn't care about Terran (didn't Browder state it was his favorite race?) and that things can't or won't be fixed are pretty much exactly the sort of statements he was well known for making back then. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On January 25 2013 03:19 Scootaloo wrote: Zerg and Toss being in shit positions carried on for months as well, and from what I heard from shows like SotG and ItG, pro's are vocal about Terran issues as well, don't you remember how long that went on until Blizzard buffed the infestor, which, in part because of it coinciding with zergs figuring out some nifty new strategies, lead to a shitton more balance problems, in Zerg's favor this time. Blizzard just needs a long time to figure out what and how they should patch, this can be frustrating for players, but do you honestly expect their patching policy to change after years of the same pace? And mind you, when they fix things they still tend to overbuff a single unit in favor of a proper redesign of mechanics like the warpgate or larva production that has been called for practically since release. Oh, I do care about balancing, mostly from a spectators point of view, but still, this is just how balancing works, Blizzard takes their sweet time and eventually patch some problems, often leading to other balance issues. Other races where neglected like this, or even more, as it is Terran is still the most thoroughly designed race, with the most unit's, buildings and build orders. In the months and months that Zerg was doing badly, you could find posts like yours on every balance whine thread, hell, it almost sounds like you're channeling the spirit of 2011 Idra, these sentiments that Blizzard doesn't care about Terran (didn't Browder state it was his favorite race?) and that things can't or won't be fixed are pretty much exactly the sort of statements he was well known for making back then. It's less that the patching is slow itself, it's that Blizzard's commentary (and HotS development) make abundantly clear that they don't have a clue. The wall of "Terran tears" I posted above was just a recount of the sheer absurdity of the current situation: One side loses in EVERYTHING economy-related in an economy-based game. It makes no goddamn sense, and one would hope professional developers would realize it too. Same with the Queen patch, which removed the limiter to Zerg's broken-if-not-damaged economy - the need to use larvae for defense, and instantly caused huge issues. But over six months before anything is even done, when back in the day Terran got nerfed switfly with a goddamn huge sledgehammer. It's pure incompetence in the face of very clear issues, which makes it so frustrating. It's not tricks that's wrong, it's sheer numbers. And, btw. I played Zerg, and love Siege Tanks. Before the Queen patch hit, I was always looking forward to TvZ, after it I began to dread TvZ and look forward to TvP which was absurdly bad back then. From the second-best matchup in the game to the worst. That's the degree of bad. Nowadays I rather watch mirrors than nonmirrors because Blizzard's time-asymmetric balancing method turns the nonmirrors into a scripted farce. | ||
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
On January 25 2013 05:33 Coffee Zombie wrote: It's less that the patching is slow itself, it's that Blizzard's commentary (and HotS development) make abundantly clear that they don't have a clue. The wall of "Terran tears" I posted above was just a recount of the sheer absurdity of the current situation: One side loses in EVERYTHING economy-related in an economy-based game. It makes no goddamn sense, and one would hope professional developers would realize it too. Same with the Queen patch, which removed the limiter to Zerg's broken-if-not-damaged economy - the need to use larvae for defense, and instantly caused huge issues. But over six months before anything is even done, when back in the day Terran got nerfed switfly with a goddamn huge sledgehammer. It's pure incompetence in the face of very clear issues, which makes it so frustrating. It's not tricks that's wrong, it's sheer numbers. And, btw. I played Zerg, and love Siege Tanks. Before the Queen patch hit, I was always looking forward to TvZ, after it I began to dread TvZ and look forward to TvP which was absurdly bad back then. From the second-best matchup in the game to the worst. That's the degree of bad. Nowadays I rather watch mirrors than nonmirrors because Blizzard's time-asymmetric balancing method turns the nonmirrors into a scripted farce. Actually, the wall of tears you posted is just a couple of highly subjective issues, most of which I wouldn't even call problems as much as features, let's look at a couple: The worst-growing economy. This is only in pure worker production capabilities, balanced out by the glorious mule. Production that is the slowest to come online. Not sure what you mean by this, last time I checked a gateway and a barracks still cost the same amount of time to build, and a zerg tends to only have defensive units early game these days anyway. Most infrastructure needed. Quite simply a side effect having the most units and buildings, not a problem, a feature. Rigid infrastructure. What is this even supposed to mean? If anything the reactor/tech lab mechanic gives it more versatility then protoss, and zerg is supposed to be able to switch over quickly, if that's what you want you should play zerg again. Basically all high tech units are narrow anti-one-unit counters that aren't at all scary otherwise. Terran has a focus on countering, a feature, not a problem. All upgrade branches separate and expensive. Let's just review this really quickly, Terran: 2 bio + 2 mech + 2 air = 6, Protoss: 2 ground + 2 air + 1 shields = 5, Zerg: 2 air + 1 melee + 1 ranged +1 armor = 5. Terran has one more upgrade triplet to get compared to toss and zerg, a simple price you have to pay for having most combat unit's of any race. On average the most blind faction in the game. Bullshit, your inability to use scan or otherwise scout properly is not Terran's problem, the quite popular hellions are considered to be very good scouts, and you can't expect to have map vision like a creeping zerg, if you want that, go play zerg. I'm stopping here because I hope you get the point and I'm not going to waste hours on this ridiculous exercise, balance is a bitch, that's it, Blizzard not responding to your pleas as you want them to has more to do with a lack of communication on their part on these matters, what do you think fueled the zerg frustration in their darkest hour? Not sure how it was before SC2, I never played WoW and when I played W3 I couldn't give a damn about them but I expect the patching practices there where as bad if not worse then here, besides, it's not that bad, just go ask the Diablo 3 crowd how Blizzard is treating their game post release. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
On January 23 2013 00:31 Filter wrote: Here's my 2 cents on the matter. TvZ and TvP are not any fun to play as the Terran play. When you lose as Terran it often feels like you got absolutely crushed and had little chance to even win the game. When you win games as Terran it's often by the absolute skin of your teeth in a very prolonged battle/game, and rarely ever by crushing your opponent. The way you die in both matchups really sucks, usually it's to a single fungal when you weren't looked or your Protoss opponent simply had units you weren't prepared for and you get smoked. When I play as Zerg I feel like I played poorly when I lose and I'm not bothered by it. I don't have to think at all during the game and simply need to play well mechanically to come out on top. It's not stressful or annoying to lose and I always feel like I probably deserved to lose when I do. I create situations for my opponent to react to and at no point am I really reacting myself, except when I'm facing an immortal all-in or a mass hellion all in. In both of those cases I just assume I made mistakes, think they did a lame build order and move on. When I play as Protoss I feel no stress at all. I understand going in that probably 50% of my losses will be to anti-meta game build orders. The other 50% will be mistakes that I make myself and can focus on correcting. I'm not worried or stressed about anything my opponent can do and I just hope my opponent can't out micro the capabilities of my army/the game doesn't goto lategame in PvZ. When I play as Terran my brain is motoring 100% of the time. I'm constantly monitoring my economy to make sure it's balanced and everythings coming out exactly when I need it. I'm worried about early all ins and how I'll scout/defend them. I'm even more worried about catching my opponents midgame tech in time, so that I can react to it in time. I'm also aware that I need to be fully ready for the incoming tech switch or I'll lose the game much earlier than I wanted to. I know every single battle I have to micro extremely carefully to come out on top or I'll lose the game to reinforcements. In a flash/bang the games usually over and I'm typing out another GG to a silly positioning mistake I made with my main army while I was trying to micro a small group of marines and macro in the background. After I play a game as Terran I'm stressed, my heart rate is racing and I feel mentally exhausted. I dont get that feeling with the other races. This sums it up really well and is why I've stopped playing random/picking T and just pick Z/P now. It's just not fun for me to play T anymore. T losses make me rage. P/Z losses make me think how I could've played better. For me at least it has nothing to do with balanced or not. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On January 25 2013 06:42 Scootaloo wrote: + Show Spoiler + Actually, the wall of tears you posted is just a couple of highly subjective issues, most of which I wouldn't even call problems as much as features, let's look at a couple: The worst-growing economy. This is only in pure worker production capabilities, balanced out by the glorious mule. Production that is the slowest to come online. Not sure what you mean by this, last time I checked a gateway and a barracks still cost the same amount of time to build, and a zerg tends to only have defensive units early game these days anyway. Most infrastructure needed. Quite simply a side effect having the most units and buildings, not a problem, a feature. Rigid infrastructure. What is this even supposed to mean? If anything the reactor/tech lab mechanic gives it more versatility then protoss, and zerg is supposed to be able to switch over quickly, if that's what you want you should play zerg again. Basically all high tech units are narrow anti-one-unit counters that aren't at all scary otherwise. Terran has a focus on countering, a feature, not a problem. All upgrade branches separate and expensive. Let's just review this really quickly, Terran: 2 bio + 2 mech + 2 air = 6, Protoss: 2 ground + 2 air + 1 shields = 5, Zerg: 2 air + 1 melee + 1 ranged +1 armor = 5. Terran has one more upgrade triplet to get compared to toss and zerg, a simple price you have to pay for having most combat unit's of any race. On average the most blind faction in the game. Bullshit, your inability to use scan or otherwise scout properly is not Terran's problem, the quite popular hellions are considered to be very good scouts, and you can't expect to have map vision like a creeping zerg, if you want that, go play zerg. I'm stopping here because I hope you get the point and I'm not going to waste hours on this ridiculous exercise, balance is a bitch, that's it, Blizzard not responding to your pleas as you want them to has more to do with a lack of communication on their part on these matters, what do you think fueled the zerg frustration in their darkest hour? Not sure how it was before SC2, I never played WoW and when I played W3 I couldn't give a damn about them but I expect the patching practices there where as bad if not worse then here, besides, it's not that bad, just go ask the Diablo 3 crowd how Blizzard is treating their game post release. Economy: Granted, may hold up to toss. Not to current Zerg, though. Production is the slowest to come online: Making add-ons takes time, while toss spend 10s for warpgate transformation and have an instant production cycle. Zerg has the addon issue in a way with Queens, but the Inject doesn't inhibit the Hatchery's normal activities like addon building does. Needed infrastructure a function of having most units and buildings? No. It's a function slow production of units that are needed en masse, especially for the overlarge MULE-fueled army. On top of that the mass of CCs. Again, the differences to toss are less, these are mainly contrasts between T and Z. The lab/reactor mechanic and T's way of teching via building production is what makes their production flexible early game. It's why I said one of their good points is getting a bit of something out quickly. The later the game goes, the larger the scale becomes, the more detrimental the addon system becomes. A large-scale Terran infrastructure is very rigid in what it can produce, far more so than a Toss and especially Zerg equivalent. Zerg is somewhat rigid early game, but becomes increasingly flexible as the game goes on. Producing only counters would not be a horrible problem except when coupled with that rigidity in production. Threats+rigid production vs. answers + flexible production is an okay balance, especially if those answers aren't ridiculously narrow. Threats + flexible production vs. answers + rigid production is not. The very definition of a threat is that it demands an answer. So my opponent answers, and I just switch before he can answer again. This is the issue. It doesn't make for a good game - the setup ensures that a good chunk of my opponent's army might as well not exist a large part of the time. It's a very clear form of imbalance. The upgrades, again, are not individually a great problem but when coupled with being economically behind and needing to invest massively in infrastructure and it becomes very irritating. Also consider typical Terran combined arms forces that would typically need all 6 - Toss ground upgrades are cheaper and cover everything, and you only need 2 + 1 for shields. Quite a bit for 2+1+1 for Bio+support. Zerg is somewhere inbetween - their ground carapace does cost a bit more than Terran's infantry armor. Terran is blind, comparatively speaking. Good scouting obviously helps and is important, but they still lack the kind of persistent information gathering that Observers give, and especially Zerg's near maphack with mass creep, burrowed units and Overlord spread. Scans are great, but temporary. | ||
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SeeN_CiRcUs
37 Posts
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