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Personally, I think Terran players have drifted away or switched race more than the other races for two reasons:
1. Terran has been (or is perceived to have been) nerfed more and buffed less than the other races.
2. The strengths of the Protoss and especially Zerg races were less intuitive.
I vividly recall the early days of Terran dominance, where a subset of Terran players would strenuously deny that their race was in any way overpowered. I suspect that denial had nowhere to go but to turn into a belief that the race had been 'spoiled' as the balance was gradually adjusted, and it is within those malcontents we will find our Terran deserters.
The same may happen again when Infestor/Broodlord is brought into line. Or perhaps not - I think the Terran phenomenon may be unique to the heady early days of SC2 where everything was new and everyone wanted to believe their awesome new strats were legit. These days we're on average a little more prepared to say "Yeah, that's bullshit" even when it's us doing the winning 
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I've been playing Terran since about a month after release. I went through all the leagues and in the early days it wasn't so hard to win as Terran. Now that things have changed units have been buffed and nerfed, I find it harder and harder to win games. I've been masters for a few seasons now and just getting rolled over almost every game gets really frustrating.
I know it's mostly my fault I'm losing, but it's really hard to hold onto that mentality sometimes. I'm going to stick with Terran and hopefully something happens to change the fact we have a rather low win percentage.
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As long as Blizzard keeps their mentality that essentially states that you have to be Korean to compete as Terran, I don't see their numbers changing for the better. There will be no Cinderella stories or great tournament upsets to inspire more people to take up the race. Just people who transition from BW, until that pool dries up (which it may have already).
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On February 06 2013 03:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 03:21 L3gendary wrote:On February 06 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 05 2013 16:49 forsooth wrote:On February 05 2013 16:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 27 2013 07:32 YumYumGranola wrote:On January 25 2013 12:12 SeeN_CiRcUs wrote:
I picked Zerg because I felt they were the most difficult to play mechanically. I feel like the need for manual injects and creep spread make them more challenging than the other races (obv being an ex-BW player, all of the races are easymode for me in terms of macro). Granted I've only played again for a week or so and I probably won't be masters for another day or two but when I played Terran back during 2010 the mechanics were super easy for me. I assume this is aimed at the multi-tasking and micro more than macro mechanics? For me, Terran macro is really easy along with Protoss. Only Zerg gives any challenge really... Really don't agree that inject larvae is a particularly difficult task to do from a macro perspective. Weren't you used to skipping through your command structures on a regular basis to set your un-rallied harvesters to mining? Basically instead of clicking on a recently finished SCV/probe/drone it's just clicking a queen and casting an ability, except on a much longer cycle time. I guess we're all different in how we perceive macro difficulty but inject larvae in my opinion should be relatively easy for anybody who played BW... Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys? BW Zerg macro was very complicated drone and larvae management. There was no such thing as inject. Hatcheries spawned one larva at a time at a regular interval and maxed at three larvae. This meant Zerg players had to build a number of macro hatches and spend much of the game being very careful about when they produced what. SC2 Zerg macro is incredibly easy by comparison and I consider it the easiest overall out of both SC games. I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds No it's not any way comparable. I don't even know where to start, like you realize there's no separate worker rally in bw and that you can only select one building at a time to macro and normally you have a lot more hatcheries in bw since there's no queens? You're comparing apples to oranges. Try playing BW or SC2BW with the BW settings and maybe you'll get an idea. On topic though I don't mind that there's a lack of terran players so much because then I don't have to play many TvTs . Sigh... As I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" look how I say (without hotkeys) look how I then clarified with "I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds" look how that does not cancel out my previous statement of NO HOTKEYS. If injects were every 17 seconds (instead of 40) it would be hard. If it was every 17 seconds without hotkeys it would feel impossible. Then you're made to imagine that all 3 races have this problem; and suddenly you hate life.
If that's actually how you meant it then it was a really stupid post by you. What the heck is the point of saying no hotkeys? The entire reason SC2 macro is insanely different is that all the hatches can be hotkeyed together and there are separate rallies. What's even the point of your post?
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On February 06 2013 05:37 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 03:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 03:21 L3gendary wrote:On February 06 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 05 2013 16:49 forsooth wrote:On February 05 2013 16:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 27 2013 07:32 YumYumGranola wrote:On January 25 2013 12:12 SeeN_CiRcUs wrote:
I picked Zerg because I felt they were the most difficult to play mechanically. I feel like the need for manual injects and creep spread make them more challenging than the other races (obv being an ex-BW player, all of the races are easymode for me in terms of macro). Granted I've only played again for a week or so and I probably won't be masters for another day or two but when I played Terran back during 2010 the mechanics were super easy for me. I assume this is aimed at the multi-tasking and micro more than macro mechanics? For me, Terran macro is really easy along with Protoss. Only Zerg gives any challenge really... Really don't agree that inject larvae is a particularly difficult task to do from a macro perspective. Weren't you used to skipping through your command structures on a regular basis to set your un-rallied harvesters to mining? Basically instead of clicking on a recently finished SCV/probe/drone it's just clicking a queen and casting an ability, except on a much longer cycle time. I guess we're all different in how we perceive macro difficulty but inject larvae in my opinion should be relatively easy for anybody who played BW... Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys? BW Zerg macro was very complicated drone and larvae management. There was no such thing as inject. Hatcheries spawned one larva at a time at a regular interval and maxed at three larvae. This meant Zerg players had to build a number of macro hatches and spend much of the game being very careful about when they produced what. SC2 Zerg macro is incredibly easy by comparison and I consider it the easiest overall out of both SC games. I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds No it's not any way comparable. I don't even know where to start, like you realize there's no separate worker rally in bw and that you can only select one building at a time to macro and normally you have a lot more hatcheries in bw since there's no queens? You're comparing apples to oranges. Try playing BW or SC2BW with the BW settings and maybe you'll get an idea. On topic though I don't mind that there's a lack of terran players so much because then I don't have to play many TvTs . Sigh... As I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" look how I say (without hotkeys) look how I then clarified with "I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds" look how that does not cancel out my previous statement of NO HOTKEYS. If injects were every 17 seconds (instead of 40) it would be hard. If it was every 17 seconds without hotkeys it would feel impossible. Then you're made to imagine that all 3 races have this problem; and suddenly you hate life. If that's actually how you meant it then it was a really stupid post by you. What the heck is the point of saying no hotkeys? The entire reason SC2 macro is insanely different is that all the hatches can be hotkeyed together and there are separate rallies. What's even the point of your post?
You don't need to use control groups and multiselect to inject right--back space and V are the only keyboard buttons you need along with fast hands. I was talking about backspace not multiunit select.
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On February 06 2013 05:01 Xova wrote:
I've been playing Terran since about a month after release. I went through all the leagues and in the early days it wasn't so hard to win as Terran. Now that things have changed units have been buffed and nerfed, I find it harder and harder to win games. I've been masters for a few seasons now and just getting rolled over almost every game gets really frustrating.
I know it's mostly my fault I'm losing, but it's really hard to hold onto that mentality sometimes. I'm going to stick with Terran and hopefully something happens to change the fact we have a rather low win percentage.
It's not just you. The hard numbers/traits of basic things ARE screwed up in pretty hilarious ways. Not to say that it is insurmountable, but at this point, considering how long this has gone on and Blizzard's "competence" at handling it, well. An observant player should know what he's in for. Which is to say, frustration and stupid-feeling games.
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Terran is the easiest race for me. I win more, do more, succeed more as Terran than either Zerg or Toss. I'm awful at macroing toss and I'm awful at tech timing with zerg.
Saying that--I probably won't be playing Terran when HotS hits. I won't pay extra money to just marines split more.
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Terran is the hardest race to play and the most demanding mechanically. Thats why there are no great foreign Terran players that consistently take games off Koreans. So less people play Terran because it is the most dificult race to play. They are also the least changed race in HotS making them less interesting. Very few people will switch to terran because of 1 new unit when the other races have 3 new units. Terran will always be the least played race in HotS.
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On February 06 2013 09:51 ELlminator1 wrote:
Terran is the hardest race to play and the most demanding mechanically. Thats why there are no great foreign Terran players that consistently take games off Koreans. So less people play Terran because it is the most dificult race to play. They are also the least changed race in HotS making them less interesting. Very few people will switch to terran because of 1 new unit when the other races have 3 new units. Terran will always be the least played race in HotS.
The problem is not difficulty--the problem is the shift in emphasis.
It is hard to macro and drone properly as zerg--but when you get it right you roll your opponents.
It's hard to survive the early/midgame as protoss--but when you stabilize you just roll your opponents.
It's easy to macro and stabilize with Terran--but Terran does not have the "roll your opponents" part of the equation.
What ends up happening? Terran sets up for high aggression (mid/late game) and then goes off. If terran breaks through, he wins, if he fails he dies.
What does that mean?
Bad zergs die "rushes" and "too much aggression"
Bad protoss die due to "weak gateway units" or "lack of aggressive options"
Bad terrans die due fighting the enemy.
That is infuriating!
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On February 06 2013 09:51 ELlminator1 wrote:
Terran is the hardest race to play and the most demanding mechanically. Thats why there are no great foreign Terran players that consistently take games off Koreans. So less people play Terran because it is the most dificult race to play. They are also the least changed race in HotS making them less interesting. Very few people will switch to terran because of 1 new unit when the other races have 3 new units. Terran will always be the least played race in HotS.
Only Protoss has three new units (Mothership Core, Tempest, Oracle); Zerg has two (Swarm Host, Viper), and at this point the Hellbat is legitimately different enough from the Hellion to be considered a new unit for Terran along with the Widow Mine, so the Terrans have two, too. Actually, Terran has received possibly the most mechanics changes so far of the races in HotS, from Medivac boosters to the Reaper redesign to the new Raven missile.
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As a little Zerg gold newbie on the KR ladder. I see predominantly Protoss and Terran players (with a lean more towards Protoss). Personally I'd say that Terran may have problems when microing at our lower levels but they have other things that work way better at our level like mineral line drops. I've had multiple games where as a Zerg I kill off most stuff and get into their base and they just drop my main and win the game. This is all made easier by my lower level of mechanics and injects which makes it much easier for a Terran or Protoss to get away with devestating drops. I'd say there are periods where the meta changes and one particular race is better than the other but to be honest I'd say its pretty balanced at our level.
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personally, my theory goes roughly like this:
terran players figured out their metagame way before the other races. this led to terran appearing to be hideously overpowered. terran nerfed back to some semblance of parity (some nerfs WERE totally warranted (hello blueflame!)). other races finally realize they have some rather useful units (infestors, protoss AoE). other races start to catch up in the metagame. terran appears woefully under-powered. a lot of terran players give up after getting continually destroyed as they dont have the micro of the top terran players to counteract the strength of opposition units/builds.
with HoTS, itll be interesting to see how the metagame evolves. but i think its one of those things that you have to be careful to balance on mechanics and not metagame. I certainly dont want to see a return to the days of GomTvTvT but GomZvZvZ is just as bad...
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On February 06 2013 06:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 05:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 03:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 03:21 L3gendary wrote:On February 06 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 05 2013 16:49 forsooth wrote:On February 05 2013 16:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 27 2013 07:32 YumYumGranola wrote:On January 25 2013 12:12 SeeN_CiRcUs wrote:
I picked Zerg because I felt they were the most difficult to play mechanically. I feel like the need for manual injects and creep spread make them more challenging than the other races (obv being an ex-BW player, all of the races are easymode for me in terms of macro). Granted I've only played again for a week or so and I probably won't be masters for another day or two but when I played Terran back during 2010 the mechanics were super easy for me. I assume this is aimed at the multi-tasking and micro more than macro mechanics? For me, Terran macro is really easy along with Protoss. Only Zerg gives any challenge really... Really don't agree that inject larvae is a particularly difficult task to do from a macro perspective. Weren't you used to skipping through your command structures on a regular basis to set your un-rallied harvesters to mining? Basically instead of clicking on a recently finished SCV/probe/drone it's just clicking a queen and casting an ability, except on a much longer cycle time. I guess we're all different in how we perceive macro difficulty but inject larvae in my opinion should be relatively easy for anybody who played BW... Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys? BW Zerg macro was very complicated drone and larvae management. There was no such thing as inject. Hatcheries spawned one larva at a time at a regular interval and maxed at three larvae. This meant Zerg players had to build a number of macro hatches and spend much of the game being very careful about when they produced what. SC2 Zerg macro is incredibly easy by comparison and I consider it the easiest overall out of both SC games. I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds No it's not any way comparable. I don't even know where to start, like you realize there's no separate worker rally in bw and that you can only select one building at a time to macro and normally you have a lot more hatcheries in bw since there's no queens? You're comparing apples to oranges. Try playing BW or SC2BW with the BW settings and maybe you'll get an idea. On topic though I don't mind that there's a lack of terran players so much because then I don't have to play many TvTs . Sigh... As I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" look how I say (without hotkeys) look how I then clarified with "I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds" look how that does not cancel out my previous statement of NO HOTKEYS. If injects were every 17 seconds (instead of 40) it would be hard. If it was every 17 seconds without hotkeys it would feel impossible. Then you're made to imagine that all 3 races have this problem; and suddenly you hate life. If that's actually how you meant it then it was a really stupid post by you. What the heck is the point of saying no hotkeys? The entire reason SC2 macro is insanely different is that all the hatches can be hotkeyed together and there are separate rallies. What's even the point of your post? You don't need to use control groups and multiselect to inject right--back space and V are the only keyboard buttons you need along with fast hands. I was talking about backspace not multiunit select.
Back space and V are hotkeys. Using V for inject is the definition of using a hotkey. And no, the macro is entirely different still, with the reason being your drones will follow your rally point. For drones to remain at your town hall, you would have to not be using any rally points. The macro isn't comparable.
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I've mained zerg since beta, but I've always wanted to go random. I started doing it a little while ago and was comfortably in diamond, but it was pretty obvious my terran was dragging me down. I switched to terran to try to get it up to speed and I have to say it's a real eye opener. Every match up just feels daunting knowing how much more I'm required to do than my opponent. I'd like if every race had as demanding micro as terran rather than terran made easier, but it's hard to say how you'd do it. Regardless, hopefully HotS will address this a bit.
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All that stuff of "balance" is bullshit : we always talk about the "korean" pro top level, but strengh of races depends of your league/level. I really think terran is weak in the mid master-low GM level : you have to perfectly control your units and always looking for an agression and so be able to beat your opponent on multitasking.
but on a bit lower level i'm pretty sure Protoss are pretty weak compared to Terrans, and mostly Zergs.
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well i switched from Zerg to Terran and I have to say that it feels great.
but I play in platinum league now instead of diamond as before with Zerg.
all in all I guess it's true because sometimes, playing Terran can be really frustrating
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On February 06 2013 10:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The problem is not difficulty--the problem is the shift in emphasis.
It is hard to macro and drone properly as zerg--but when you get it right you roll your opponents.
It's hard to survive the early/midgame as protoss--but when you stabilize you just roll your opponents.
It's easy to macro and stabilize with Terran--but Terran does not have the "roll your opponents" part of the equation.
What ends up happening? Terran sets up for high aggression (mid/late game) and then goes off. If terran breaks through, he wins, if he fails he dies.
I think that describes very well what i am experiencing as a Terran Gold player.
When i starteted i read a lot of guides. Watched youtube videos for noobies like me (Day9 etc.).
And they hammer one phrase in your mind : Concentrate on Macro! Build depots and scvs!
But as a Terran, as you have no viable lategame army, you have to win with timing attacks.
But timing attacks contradicts the idea of macro that all the guids are talking about. So i had to change the way i aproached the game. I had to learn the game again. With stuff in mind like : attack at min x, or i will loose the game. Only macro till you have y amount of stuff and then attack, or i will loose the game. Then it all starts to make sense again.
But it was very hard for me to grasp the idea that to much macro is bad. And that all ins are the only viable way to win as terran.
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On February 06 2013 19:52 wingless666 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 10:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The problem is not difficulty--the problem is the shift in emphasis.
It is hard to macro and drone properly as zerg--but when you get it right you roll your opponents.
It's hard to survive the early/midgame as protoss--but when you stabilize you just roll your opponents.
It's easy to macro and stabilize with Terran--but Terran does not have the "roll your opponents" part of the equation.
What ends up happening? Terran sets up for high aggression (mid/late game) and then goes off. If terran breaks through, he wins, if he fails he dies.
I think that describes very well what i am experiencing as a Terran Gold player. When i starteted i read a lot of guides. Watched youtube videos for noobies like me (Day9 etc.). And they hammer one phrase in your mind : Concentrate on Macro! Build depots and scvs! But as a Terran, as you have no viable lategame army, you have to win with timing attacks. But timing attacks contradicts the idea of macro that all the guids are talking about. So i had to change the way i aproached the game. I had to learn the game again. With stuff in mind like : attack at min x, or i will loose the game. Only macro till you have y amount of stuff and then attack, or i will loose the game. Then it all starts to make sense again. But it was very hard for me to grasp the idea that to much macro is bad. And that all ins are the only viable way to win as terran.
terran has good lategame lol. stronger than protoss
in TvP and TvT you can macro forever lol, its just vs zerg that problems come up but even then you can still get to a lategame comp that can compete with broodlord infestor
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You do realize that sc2ranks does NOT include all starcraft 2 accounts, right?
Using that as prove for anything is pretty dumb.
Terran is the race that takes the most time to get to a decent level, that doesn't mean it's the hardest race or anything, but it has the hardest learning curve to get to say high masters. Given how league of legends is not only the easiest moba, but also the most popular one, it's not a shocker that most people don't take the race with the hardest learning curve at start, it's just people getting more and more lazy and not being interested in actually putting in a lot of time to get results.
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So as terran you have to always get maximum value out of your units, while constantly making new ones and adding more production.
For all non one-base games, and Terran opens 1RaxFE
- Protoss has to play save till a tech or unit goal is achieved and then either roflstomps unprepared Terran or takes another base. All units ultimately add up to a deathball, most units share the same upgrades.
The robo gives you units with AoE,tankingability,detection and drop abilty. So its like a swissarmy-chainsaw-lightsaber machinegun-satelite. There has to be no decision making, immortals will help you out against terran early game, and you need obs to scout, yo go one-gate-robo-expand.
Production : Chronoboost speeds everything, of you forget CR, you can just speed up what you forgot. So a mistake does not matter that much. Also "warpgates" are too cheap for 150 mins and no miningtime lost for that worker. Warp in on site changes close battles so much, even when the fight is in terrans natural, warp in is better than walking. Also the units are super durable, so terran needs to micro every second against Zealots and also needs to produce and rally new units.
- Zerg has to expand and make only Queens and drones. With simcity it´s not possible to harass with Hellion Banshee
On three bases with creepspread any attack can be crushed before getting to your base. I really like zergling Muta, but most Z have gotten so lazy they just go straight infestor and some roaches, 4th and Hive. Still it is hard to stop if every move is spotted.
The reason why foreign Zergs do good is the stupidity of the Mechanics. Inject,creep,overlord,drone and all over again.
You get income, vision and production from that cycle and you just have to repeat it.
Good zergs identify the threatlevel all the time and react properly.
Every Overlord has potential to grant detection, Queens are great against early terran aggression.
P and Z can make more mistakes in macro and won´t fall behind. In engagements Protoss is the race that has to watch least for a good position. Zerg can defend early aggression with Queens, which also boost his economy, like fucking Terminator-Mules with .50cal miniguns
So there is a skillgap between Terrans and P/Z created by the influence of a macro and positioning mistake
Top korean Terrans dont do these.
My Solution : Warpgate can only warp in on pylons powering the warpgate itself or at a Warpprism, observer need observatory.
Nexus can hold one less Chronoboost. Assimilators loose half their HP.
Ultralisks should be build from hatcheries not larvae. Larvae-inject grants less the amount, but needs to be done more frequently.
My Goal: Make P and Z harder to play to create an even rewarding feeling from winning, and evenly distributed effect for making mistakes.
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