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On February 07 2013 03:17 Vanadiel wrote:
Well, Jinro did had the best foreigner results in GSL and won an MLG, QXC did an all kill in GSTL, Morrow winning over Idra with 5 rax reaper at IEM, Naama won Dreamhack, Sjow won IEM.
compare this to foreigner zerg and protoss success, and you'll realize there is no reason to even argue this point
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Haven't read every post here so perhaps someone has hinted at this but...
Maybe Terran isn't played as often as the other races because it's boring.
As a Zerg and Terran player, and someone who played Terran almost exclusively in BW, I personally find the way Terran plays currently to be boring as sin. The bulk of your army, in every match up, comes from the rax - because, let's face it, 9 times out of 10 it's the best option. Of course you add to these units as needed but I find most games are won by a group of MMM (often mid-game) that earns an advantage.
I feel that the core aspects of Terran were lost in SC2 - and the race feels bland. I loves me some Terran, I'd love to enjoy it more, I just don't. Maybe others feel the same and that's why it's not often picked.
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On February 07 2013 03:21 LF[Media] wrote:
You have a very selective memory, Magpie.
I recalled that the first year of SC2 was very terran heavy although it didn't have a lot of Terran results outside of the foreign scene. I recall that we had a lot of terran favorites that immediately disappeared once Koreans showed up. I recall MLG beginning the trend of Korea vs the world and it lead to Ret, Huk and Idra being the main foreign hopes each MLG tournament. I recall that it took till halfway through 2011 before Terran won their second GSL.
I recall a lot of promising terran players that filled up the top 32 and the top 8 but a lot of them falling to the wayside when we get to the top 4.
These events are just as true and just as relevant as "GomTvT"
To say "oh terran was OP strong early on because of representation" is inaccurate. Was Terran OP? Yes--how do we know? Because of the all the nerfs that were thrown at them.
I remember that Terran would get a nerf, innovate the matchup with new playstyles, get nerfed again, innovate again, and then get nerfed again.
That is what tells me that Terran was strong back then. And you know what, those nerfs didn't come from some month long trend or some season long trend--they'd come after a terran player does once or twice in a tournament and an immediate hotfix would follow.
Saying its just representation is dishonest because there was a lot of representation for all three races back in 2010-2011; selective memory is the reason people believe it was all Terran all the time.
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On February 07 2013 03:35 Mjolnir wrote:
I feel that the core aspects of Terran were lost in SC2
siege tanks not being horrible
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On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The whine that protoss and zerg are more forgiving is absolute bullshit. Like, it is absolutely 100% bullshit.
Or it's 100% true, and the main raison why Terran constantly underperforms below Code A/S level.
On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Protoss loses their army once, the game ends.
Yep, especially lategame PvT in which Terran is able to warp Marines/Marauders near your base while you have to wait the slow reinforcements from your Gateways… Oh wait. Please be honest, how many times do we see Terrans winning a fight in lategame TvP, yet they're unable to press on because of how strong Zealots warp-ins + leftover defensive Templars are? Now go check pro games and show me games in which Protoss comes out 30 supply ahead and is unable to do anything. I bet you won't find many instances of this.
There are unforgiving aspects in the Protoss side too, but overall warp-ins + Storm/Colossi + Observers + the fact Protoss units are tougher and need less micro (Zealots/Archons/Colossi require virtually none) + the ability to secure remote expands with Pylons/Canons/HTs make Protoss more forgiving. No doubt mass Ghosts/Vikings can be hard to handle, but queuing Zealots/DTs in Terran's mineral lines/bases to dismantle him before he gets this super-expensive army is so easy compared to the amount of micro/attention needed from the Terran side to deal with Zealots (who are very efficient in small fights when both sides are left unmicroed) + DTs while trying to keep at bay Protoss' main army roaming around the PF checking for any sign of weakness to charge.
On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Zerg loses their fragile army to something slightly mobile? The game ends because an immediate counter attack kills 2 bases.
This is so wrong I don't even know how to start. Fragile army? 145 hit points + 1 armor for 75/25 sounds quite beefy to me; Ultralisks with their 500 hit points and 6 armor when fully upgraded disagree too, and what about Corruptors with their 200 hit points and 2 armor? So fragile indeed; if only Zerg had a minerals-only tier1 unit (which, again, doesn't lack sturdiness) which, on top of the unparalleled utility (antiair/defence/production/vision) it already provides, could chain heal single targets too, maybe this “fragility” would be more bearable.
Zerg is the epitome of forgiveness in ZvT because of creep/Fungal/larvae. It doesn't matter how far behind Zerg can get, all they need is hit a good Fungal and suddenly the 15 past minuts in which they were massively outplayed barely matter and the game is fully reset. Banking larvae makes it trivial to remax and buy back a second army for another chance while Terran has a hard time bulldozing his army through several screens of creep because you always stand a chance of overextending against 70+ Zerglings (or 30+ Roaches if mech) reinforcements + Fungal. See DRG vs Bomber, Metropolis, IPL5: DRG suicides two Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks armies offcreep charging in horrible positions, yet Bomber has to struggle for another 10 minuts before being able to deal the killing blow. Lose your Hatchery to a non-committed 2 rax? No problem, you still have the right to play a 50 minuts macro game; on the other hand, good luck holding a Roach (Baneling) bust if your 2 rax fails. Kill only 5 SCVs with a Roach poke? Larva inject forgives. Do I also need to mention the numerous games in which Zerg goes Roach Baneling Bust, miserably fails yet it barely matters because 10-15 Drones were built meanwhile at home? On the other hand, watch Hack vs DRG, Icarus, Code S RO32 and Noblesse vs Nestea, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S RO32 to see what happens when Terran is desperate/foolish enough to try a 2-bases timing and fails it; does Zerg need 20 minuts of drawn-out, careful maneuvers to refute Terran's failure? Watch this (Sheth just failed a Roach Baneling bust) and tell me with a straight face this is not forgiving? Did you see Baby/TY vs Leenock, Whirlwind, Code S RO32? Leenock gets permanently dismantled during 15 minuts, barely surviving with one mining base, but in the end everything is forgiven: he still has Broodlords/Infestors and Fungal happens. Just read Lings of Liberty, really, all of this is nothing new. Stating that Zerg is as unforgiving as Terran in TvZ is simply preposterous.
On February 07 2013 02:04 TsGBruzze wrote:
i agree that terrans weakness is that they take to long time in late game to mobilse a deffense versus toss and zerg, i dont know how to fix thi tho, maybe make warpgates like bbarracks( queed units is staying at 0% and when your not maxxed anymore it starts to load)
Protoss would simply stay at 199/200.
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On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:Like, it is absolutely 100% bullshit.
obvious cali girl is obvious
explain low representation in higher leagues then? overrepresentation of P/Z?
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On February 07 2013 03:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The whine that protoss and zerg are more forgiving is absolute bullshit. Like, it is absolutely 100% bullshit. Or it's 100% true, and the main raison why Terran constantly underperforms below Code A/S level. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Protoss loses their army once, the game ends. Yep, especially lategame PvT in which Terran is able to warp Marines/Marauders near your base while you have to wait the slow reinforcements from your Gateways… Oh wait. Please be honest, how many times do we see Terrans winning a fight in lategame TvP, yet they're unable to press on because of how strong Zealots warp-ins + leftover defensive Templars are? Now go check pro games and show me games in which Protoss comes out 30 supply ahead and is unable to do anything. I bet you won't find many instances of this. There are unforgiving aspects in the Protoss side too, but overall warp-ins + Storm/Colossi + Observers + the fact Protoss units are tougher and need less micro (Zealots/Archons/Colossi require virtually none) + the ability to secure remote expands with Pylons/Canons/HTs make Protoss more forgiving. No doubt mass Ghosts/Vikings can be hard to handle, but queuing Zealots/DTs in Terran's mineral lines/bases to dismantle him before he gets this super-expensive army is so easy compared to the amount of micro/attention needed from the Terran side to deal with Zealots (who are very efficient in small fights when both sides are left unmicroed) + DTs while trying to keep at bay Protoss' main army roaming around the PF checking for any sign of weakness to charge. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Zerg loses their fragile army to something slightly mobile? The game ends because an immediate counter attack kills 2 bases. This is so wrong I don't even know how to start. Fragile army? 145 hit points + 1 armor for 75/25 sounds quite beefy to me; Ultralisks with their 500 hit points and 6 armor when fully upgraded disagree too, and what about Corruptors with their 200 hit points and 2 armor? So fragile indeed; if only Zerg had a minerals-only tier1 unit (which, again, doesn't lack sturdiness) which, on top of the unparalleled utility (antiair/defence/production/vision) it already provides, could chain heal single targets too, maybe this “fragility” would be more bearable. Zerg is the epitome of forgiveness in ZvT because of creep/Fungal/larvae. It doesn't matter how far behind Zerg can get, all they need is hit a good Fungal and suddenly the 15 past minuts in which they were massively outplayed barely matter and the game is fully reset. Banking larvae makes it trivial to remax and buy back a second army for another chance while Terran has a hard time bulldozing his army through several screens of creep because you always stand a chance of overextending against 70+ Zerglings (or 30+ Roaches if mech) reinforcements + Fungal. See DRG vs Bomber, Metropolis, IPL5: DRG suicides two Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks armies offcreep charging in horrible positions, yet Bomber has to struggle for another 10 minuts before being able to deal the killing blow. Lose your Hatchery to a non-committed 2 rax? No problem, you still have the right to play a 50 minuts macro game; on the other hand, good luck holding a Roach (Baneling) bust if your 2 rax fails. Kill only 5 SCVs with a Roach poke? Larva inject forgives. Do I also need to mention the numerous games in which Zerg goes Roach Baneling Bust, miserably fails yet it barely matters because 10-15 Drones were built meanwhile at home? On the other hand, watch Hack vs DRG, Icarus, Code S RO32 and Noblesse vs Nestea, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S RO32 to see what happens when Terran is desperate/foolish enough to try a 2-bases timing and fails it; does Zerg need 20 minuts of drawn-out, careful maneuvers to refute Terran's failure? Watch this (Sheth just failed a Roach Baneling bust) and tell me with a straight face this is not forgiving? Did you see Baby/TY vs Leenock, Whirlwind, Code S RO32? Leenock gets permanently dismantled during 15 minuts, barely surviving with one mining base, but in the end everything is forgiven: he still has Broodlords/Infestors and Fungal happens. Just read Lings of Liberty, really, all of this is nothing new. Stating that Zerg is as unforgiving as Terran in TvZ is simply preposterous. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 02:04 TsGBruzze wrote:
i agree that terrans weakness is that they take to long time in late game to mobilse a deffense versus toss and zerg, i dont know how to fix thi tho, maybe make warpgates like bbarracks( queed units is staying at 0% and when your not maxxed anymore it starts to load) Protoss would simply stay at 199/200.
You are starting to make too much sense, someone will have to reply with pure out-of-the-a** arguments to throw us off and deny a meaningful discussion. I just hope that some of the core flaws of the game will get addressed by the time LotV hits :/ because terran late game macro (and maybe forgiveness) wont get even near P/Z levels in HOTS.
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EDIT: Blah - not worth it.
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On February 07 2013 03:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The whine that protoss and zerg are more forgiving is absolute bullshit. Like, it is absolutely 100% bullshit. Or it's 100% true, and the main raison why Terran constantly underperforms below Code A/S level. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Protoss loses their army once, the game ends. Yep, especially lategame PvT in which Terran is able to warp Marines/Marauders near your base while you have to wait the slow reinforcements from your Gateways… Oh wait. Please be honest, how many times do we see Terrans winning a fight in lategame TvP, yet they're unable to press on because of how strong Zealots warp-ins + leftover defensive Templars are? Now go check pro games and show me games in which Protoss comes out 30 supply ahead and is unable to do anything. I bet you won't find many instances of this. There are unforgiving aspects in the Protoss side too, but overall warp-ins + Storm/Colossi + Observers + the fact Protoss units are tougher and need less micro (Zealots/Archons/Colossi require virtually none) + the ability to secure remote expands with Pylons/Canons/HTs make Protoss more forgiving. No doubt mass Ghosts/Vikings can be hard to handle, but queuing Zealots/DTs in Terran's mineral lines/bases to dismantle him before he gets this super-expensive army is so easy compared to the amount of micro/attention needed from the Terran side to deal with Zealots (who are very efficient in small fights when both sides are left unmicroed) + DTs while trying to keep at bay Protoss' main army roaming around the PF checking for any sign of weakness to charge. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Zerg loses their fragile army to something slightly mobile? The game ends because an immediate counter attack kills 2 bases. This is so wrong I don't even know how to start. Fragile army? 145 hit points + 1 armor for 75/25 sounds quite beefy to me; Ultralisks with their 500 hit points and 6 armor when fully upgraded disagree too, and what about Corruptors with their 200 hit points and 2 armor? So fragile indeed; if only Zerg had a minerals-only tier1 unit (which, again, doesn't lack sturdiness) which, on top of the unparalleled utility (antiair/defence/production/vision) it already provides, could chain heal single targets too, maybe this “fragility” would be more bearable. Zerg is the epitome of forgiveness in ZvT because of creep/Fungal/larvae. It doesn't matter how far behind Zerg can get, all they need is hit a good Fungal and suddenly the 15 past minuts in which they were massively outplayed barely matter and the game is fully reset. Banking larvae makes it trivial to remax and buy back a second army for another chance while Terran has a hard time bulldozing his army through several screens of creep because you always stand a chance of overextending against 70+ Zerglings (or 30+ Roaches if mech) reinforcements + Fungal. See DRG vs Bomber, Metropolis, IPL5: DRG suicides two Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks armies offcreep charging in horrible positions, yet Bomber has to struggle for another 10 minuts before being able to deal the killing blow. Lose your Hatchery to a non-committed 2 rax? No problem, you still have the right to play a 50 minuts macro game; on the other hand, good luck holding a Roach (Baneling) bust if your 2 rax fails. Kill only 5 SCVs with a Roach poke? Larva inject forgives. Do I also need to mention the numerous games in which Zerg goes Roach Baneling Bust, miserably fails yet it barely matters because 10-15 Drones were built meanwhile at home? On the other hand, watch Hack vs DRG, Icarus, Code S RO32 and Noblesse vs Nestea, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S RO32 to see what happens when Terran is desperate/foolish enough to try a 2-bases timing and fails it; does Zerg need 20 minuts of drawn-out, careful maneuvers to refute Terran's failure? Watch this (Sheth just failed a Roach Baneling bust) and tell me with a straight face this is not forgiving? Did you see Baby/TY vs Leenock, Whirlwind, Code S RO32? Leenock gets permanently dismantled during 15 minuts, barely surviving with one mining base, but in the end everything is forgiven: he still has Broodlords/Infestors and Fungal happens. Just read Lings of Liberty, really, all of this is nothing new. Stating that Zerg is as unforgiving as Terran in TvZ is simply preposterous. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 02:04 TsGBruzze wrote:
i agree that terrans weakness is that they take to long time in late game to mobilse a deffense versus toss and zerg, i dont know how to fix thi tho, maybe make warpgates like bbarracks( queed units is staying at 0% and when your not maxxed anymore it starts to load) Protoss would simply stay at 199/200.
Thank you.
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Honestly, I feel sorry for the pro Terrans (even code S level).
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On February 07 2013 01:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 10:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 06:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 05:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 03:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 03:21 L3gendary wrote:On February 06 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 05 2013 16:49 forsooth wrote:On February 05 2013 16:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 27 2013 07:32 YumYumGranola wrote:
[quote]
Really don't agree that inject larvae is a particularly difficult task to do from a macro perspective. Weren't you used to skipping through your command structures on a regular basis to set your un-rallied harvesters to mining? Basically instead of clicking on a recently finished SCV/probe/drone it's just clicking a queen and casting an ability, except on a much longer cycle time. I guess we're all different in how we perceive macro difficulty but inject larvae in my opinion should be relatively easy for anybody who played BW... Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys? BW Zerg macro was very complicated drone and larvae management. There was no such thing as inject. Hatcheries spawned one larva at a time at a regular interval and maxed at three larvae. This meant Zerg players had to build a number of macro hatches and spend much of the game being very careful about when they produced what. SC2 Zerg macro is incredibly easy by comparison and I consider it the easiest overall out of both SC games. I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds No it's not any way comparable. I don't even know where to start, like you realize there's no separate worker rally in bw and that you can only select one building at a time to macro and normally you have a lot more hatcheries in bw since there's no queens? You're comparing apples to oranges. Try playing BW or SC2BW with the BW settings and maybe you'll get an idea. On topic though I don't mind that there's a lack of terran players so much because then I don't have to play many TvTs  . Sigh... As I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" look how I say (without hotkeys) look how I then clarified with "I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds" look how that does not cancel out my previous statement of NO HOTKEYS. If injects were every 17 seconds (instead of 40) it would be hard. If it was every 17 seconds without hotkeys it would feel impossible. Then you're made to imagine that all 3 races have this problem; and suddenly you hate life. If that's actually how you meant it then it was a really stupid post by you. What the heck is the point of saying no hotkeys? The entire reason SC2 macro is insanely different is that all the hatches can be hotkeyed together and there are separate rallies. What's even the point of your post? You don't need to use control groups and multiselect to inject right--back space and V are the only keyboard buttons you need along with fast hands. I was talking about backspace not multiunit select. Back space and V are hotkeys. Using V for inject is the definition of using a hotkey. And no, the macro is entirely different still, with the reason being your drones will follow your rally point. For drones to remain at your town hall, you would have to not be using any rally points. The macro isn't comparable. Do you have bad reading comprehension? I said that BW macro is like injects--I did not say that BW macro is like SC2 macro. Learn to read please. Rally point comparisons mean shit since hitting an inject requires zero rally points. Hitting an inject requires zero unit production and requires zero building selection. You move your screen to a hatch, select queen, hit V, click on hatch. BW macro is move your screen to a town hall, select worker, click on mineral, start next worker I don't understand what rally points and multi unit select has anything to do with what you're talking about!
First, I already made it clear if you're trying to be that ungodly specific, you're retarded. There is utterly no reason to even make that point.
Second, even with your ungodly specificity, you're still wrong. That is not how BW zerg macro works, so I suggest you research further. If you miss an inject, nothing happens. If you miss selecting the drone at the exact few second it pops, you will no longer be able to move your screen to the town hall and select your worker as the worker will not be there. Due to rally points. Hence it being relevant.
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On February 07 2013 10:38 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 01:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 10:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 06:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 05:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 03:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 03:21 L3gendary wrote:On February 06 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 05 2013 16:49 forsooth wrote:On February 05 2013 16:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys? BW Zerg macro was very complicated drone and larvae management. There was no such thing as inject. Hatcheries spawned one larva at a time at a regular interval and maxed at three larvae. This meant Zerg players had to build a number of macro hatches and spend much of the game being very careful about when they produced what. SC2 Zerg macro is incredibly easy by comparison and I consider it the easiest overall out of both SC games. I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds No it's not any way comparable. I don't even know where to start, like you realize there's no separate worker rally in bw and that you can only select one building at a time to macro and normally you have a lot more hatcheries in bw since there's no queens? You're comparing apples to oranges. Try playing BW or SC2BW with the BW settings and maybe you'll get an idea. On topic though I don't mind that there's a lack of terran players so much because then I don't have to play many TvTs . Sigh... As I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" look how I say (without hotkeys) look how I then clarified with "I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds" look how that does not cancel out my previous statement of NO HOTKEYS. If injects were every 17 seconds (instead of 40) it would be hard. If it was every 17 seconds without hotkeys it would feel impossible. Then you're made to imagine that all 3 races have this problem; and suddenly you hate life. If that's actually how you meant it then it was a really stupid post by you. What the heck is the point of saying no hotkeys? The entire reason SC2 macro is insanely different is that all the hatches can be hotkeyed together and there are separate rallies. What's even the point of your post? You don't need to use control groups and multiselect to inject right--back space and V are the only keyboard buttons you need along with fast hands. I was talking about backspace not multiunit select. Back space and V are hotkeys. Using V for inject is the definition of using a hotkey. And no, the macro is entirely different still, with the reason being your drones will follow your rally point. For drones to remain at your town hall, you would have to not be using any rally points. The macro isn't comparable. Do you have bad reading comprehension? I said that BW macro is like injects--I did not say that BW macro is like SC2 macro. Learn to read please. Rally point comparisons mean shit since hitting an inject requires zero rally points. Hitting an inject requires zero unit production and requires zero building selection. You move your screen to a hatch, select queen, hit V, click on hatch. BW macro is move your screen to a town hall, select worker, click on mineral, start next worker I don't understand what rally points and multi unit select has anything to do with what you're talking about! First, I already made it clear if you're trying to be that ungodly specific, you're retarded. There is utterly no reason to even make that point. Second, even with your ungodly specificity, you're still wrong. That is not how BW zerg macro works, so I suggest you research further. If you miss an inject, nothing happens. If you miss selecting the drone at the exact few second it pops, you will no longer be able to move your screen to the town hall and select your worker as the worker will not be there. Due to rally points. Hence it being relevant.
Okay, let's take a look at what I said.
"Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys?"
Let's break it down.
I'sn't BW macro (in general) just an inject (is similar to larva injects) every 17 seconds (much faster) without hotkeys (no control groups or backspace)
The answer is yes--why? Because I never said that injects = granular specificity of zerg BW macro, nor did I try talking about rally point, production cycles or anything else unrelated to injects or worker creation (see that every 17 seconds comment--that was supposed to be the hint)
Apparently you think I'm talking about BW zerg macro specifics--so let me show you how I HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT OR BROUGHT UP THAT TOPIC.
"Isn't BW macro"
"just an inject"
"every 17 seconds"
"without hotkeys"
ie--Is not macro in BW also a system dependent on returning to your town halls regularly to quickly perform a few simple commands in order to maintain economic production. So while you have to go back to the CC/Nexus/Hatch every 17 seconds or your worker production will stop--you also have to go back to your Hatch every 40 seconds otherwise you won't have good production.
ITS THE SAME MENIAL TASK ONLY FASTER AND MORE TEDIOUS. It isn't hard to box select a worker and right click on a mineral patch--it isn't hard at all. It's hard to do it every 17 seconds on the dot for every town hall you have. It is also very easy to box select a Queen, hit V and then click on the hatchery to inject. It's difficult to do it every 40 seconds on the dot as you move your queens back and forth to hit medivacs, block off chokes, chase off observers/overlords, etc...
Now--since you only have a 17 second rythm instead of a 40 second rythm, it suggests that BW is MUCH HARDER mathematically than SC2 since people already have a hard enough time maintaining injects. However, it also suggests that injects are not as easymode as most people make it out to be on this thread since it is the same mechanical design as macroing in BW.
I'm sorry that you did not see that when I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" and for some odd reason you interpreted that as me not wanting to talk about rallying drones. Because if you speak english as a second language, I can understand that despite me not talking about drones, rally points, or even zerg macro in general that you seem to think I was only comparing how SC2 zerg makes workers vs BW zerg. It must be because you don't understand english very well.
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On February 07 2013 11:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 10:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 07 2013 01:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 10:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 06:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 05:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 03:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 03:21 L3gendary wrote:On February 06 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 05 2013 16:49 forsooth wrote:
[quote]
BW Zerg macro was very complicated drone and larvae management. There was no such thing as inject. Hatcheries spawned one larva at a time at a regular interval and maxed at three larvae. This meant Zerg players had to build a number of macro hatches and spend much of the game being very careful about when they produced what. SC2 Zerg macro is incredibly easy by comparison and I consider it the easiest overall out of both SC games. I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds No it's not any way comparable. I don't even know where to start, like you realize there's no separate worker rally in bw and that you can only select one building at a time to macro and normally you have a lot more hatcheries in bw since there's no queens? You're comparing apples to oranges. Try playing BW or SC2BW with the BW settings and maybe you'll get an idea. On topic though I don't mind that there's a lack of terran players so much because then I don't have to play many TvTs . Sigh... As I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" look how I say (without hotkeys) look how I then clarified with "I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds" look how that does not cancel out my previous statement of NO HOTKEYS. If injects were every 17 seconds (instead of 40) it would be hard. If it was every 17 seconds without hotkeys it would feel impossible. Then you're made to imagine that all 3 races have this problem; and suddenly you hate life. If that's actually how you meant it then it was a really stupid post by you. What the heck is the point of saying no hotkeys? The entire reason SC2 macro is insanely different is that all the hatches can be hotkeyed together and there are separate rallies. What's even the point of your post? You don't need to use control groups and multiselect to inject right--back space and V are the only keyboard buttons you need along with fast hands. I was talking about backspace not multiunit select. Back space and V are hotkeys. Using V for inject is the definition of using a hotkey. And no, the macro is entirely different still, with the reason being your drones will follow your rally point. For drones to remain at your town hall, you would have to not be using any rally points. The macro isn't comparable. Do you have bad reading comprehension? I said that BW macro is like injects--I did not say that BW macro is like SC2 macro. Learn to read please. Rally point comparisons mean shit since hitting an inject requires zero rally points. Hitting an inject requires zero unit production and requires zero building selection. You move your screen to a hatch, select queen, hit V, click on hatch. BW macro is move your screen to a town hall, select worker, click on mineral, start next worker I don't understand what rally points and multi unit select has anything to do with what you're talking about! First, I already made it clear if you're trying to be that ungodly specific, you're retarded. There is utterly no reason to even make that point. Second, even with your ungodly specificity, you're still wrong. That is not how BW zerg macro works, so I suggest you research further. If you miss an inject, nothing happens. If you miss selecting the drone at the exact few second it pops, you will no longer be able to move your screen to the town hall and select your worker as the worker will not be there. Due to rally points. Hence it being relevant. Okay, let's take a look at what I said. "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys?" Let's break it down. I'sn't BW macro (in general) just an inject (is similar to larva injects) every 17 seconds (much faster) without hotkeys (no control groups or backspace) The answer is yes--why? Because I never said that injects = granular specificity of zerg BW macro, nor did I try talking about rally point, production cycles or anything else unrelated to injects or worker creation (see that every 17 seconds comment--that was supposed to be the hint) Apparently you think I'm talking about BW zerg macro specifics--so let me show you how I HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT OR BROUGHT UP THAT TOPIC. "Isn't BW macro" "just an inject" "every 17 seconds" "without hotkeys" ie--Is not macro in BW also a system dependent on returning to your town halls regularly to quickly perform a few simple commands in order to maintain economic production. So while you have to go back to the CC/Nexus/Hatch every 17 seconds or your worker production will stop--you also have to go back to your Hatch every 40 seconds otherwise you won't have good production. ITS THE SAME MENIAL TASK ONLY FASTER AND MORE TEDIOUS. It isn't hard to box select a worker and right click on a mineral patch--it isn't hard at all. It's hard to do it every 17 seconds on the dot for every town hall you have. It is also very easy to box select a Queen, hit V and then click on the hatchery to inject. It's difficult to do it every 40 seconds on the dot as you move your queens back and forth to hit medivacs, block off chokes, chase off observers/overlords, etc... Now--since you only have a 17 second rythm instead of a 40 second rythm, it suggests that BW is MUCH HARDER mathematically than SC2 since people already have a hard enough time maintaining injects. However, it also suggests that injects are not as easymode as most people make it out to be on this thread since it is the same mechanical design as macroing in BW. I'm sorry that you did not see that when I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" and for some odd reason you interpreted that as me not wanting to talk about rallying drones. Because if you speak english as a second language, I can understand that despite me not talking about drones, rally points, or even zerg macro in general that you seem to think I was only comparing how SC2 zerg makes workers vs BW zerg. It must be because you don't understand english very well.
1. As stated, your purpose of stating no "hotkeys" is retarded and inapplicable.
2. Despite your feeble attempt to keep trying to state you didn't reference anything else, it is impossible to make the comparison you are trying to make without such references.
3. The answer is still no, they are not comparable, because you are punished more severely for not doing it in BW than SC2. This punishment (due to rally points) is entirely relevant to the difficulty of the macro.
4. In BW your hatcheries are not necessarily at expansions, considering you need macro hatches. Particularly in ZvT and ZvP (if Protoss does any build besides Forge FE), unless you are going for an aggressive 2 hatch build in one of these MUs.
At most you can try to say your more elaborated statement of "Zerg still consists of returning to your town hall to maintain economic production" is accurate, although that cannot be insinuated in the slightest by your original statement. At the same time, even after your clarification on something so irrelevant and unnecessary, BW macro is not an inject every 17 seconds because the consequences of failing the action is entirely different (due to rally points).
But yes, your very basic and extremely general point that it is a thoughtless task, just less demanding, is accurate. Just as muling is a thoughtless task as well.
EDIT: And while I'll still maintain it's nigh impossible to decipher what your true intention was behind your initial post that I should have caught on quicker in your subsequent posts. However, in the end, the above points still remain.
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Listen, buddy if you don't know what you are talking about (like you don't play all three races) then you shouldn't spend so much time making arguments. It is a waste of your time considering how poorly written and inaccurate this is.
What an informative and well thought-out argument! Please, kind Sir, will you shower us in more of your profound wisdom?
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Wait are people in here seriously arguing whether Broodwar macro is more difficult than SC2 macro?
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On February 07 2013 11:56 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 11:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 10:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 07 2013 01:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 10:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 06:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 05:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 06 2013 03:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 06 2013 03:21 L3gendary wrote:On February 06 2013 02:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds No it's not any way comparable. I don't even know where to start, like you realize there's no separate worker rally in bw and that you can only select one building at a time to macro and normally you have a lot more hatcheries in bw since there's no queens? You're comparing apples to oranges. Try playing BW or SC2BW with the BW settings and maybe you'll get an idea. On topic though I don't mind that there's a lack of terran players so much because then I don't have to play many TvTs . Sigh... As I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" look how I say (without hotkeys) look how I then clarified with "I meant go to town hall, select worker, right click on mineral => repeat every 17 seconds" look how that does not cancel out my previous statement of NO HOTKEYS. If injects were every 17 seconds (instead of 40) it would be hard. If it was every 17 seconds without hotkeys it would feel impossible. Then you're made to imagine that all 3 races have this problem; and suddenly you hate life. If that's actually how you meant it then it was a really stupid post by you. What the heck is the point of saying no hotkeys? The entire reason SC2 macro is insanely different is that all the hatches can be hotkeyed together and there are separate rallies. What's even the point of your post? You don't need to use control groups and multiselect to inject right--back space and V are the only keyboard buttons you need along with fast hands. I was talking about backspace not multiunit select. Back space and V are hotkeys. Using V for inject is the definition of using a hotkey. And no, the macro is entirely different still, with the reason being your drones will follow your rally point. For drones to remain at your town hall, you would have to not be using any rally points. The macro isn't comparable. Do you have bad reading comprehension? I said that BW macro is like injects--I did not say that BW macro is like SC2 macro. Learn to read please. Rally point comparisons mean shit since hitting an inject requires zero rally points. Hitting an inject requires zero unit production and requires zero building selection. You move your screen to a hatch, select queen, hit V, click on hatch. BW macro is move your screen to a town hall, select worker, click on mineral, start next worker I don't understand what rally points and multi unit select has anything to do with what you're talking about! First, I already made it clear if you're trying to be that ungodly specific, you're retarded. There is utterly no reason to even make that point. Second, even with your ungodly specificity, you're still wrong. That is not how BW zerg macro works, so I suggest you research further. If you miss an inject, nothing happens. If you miss selecting the drone at the exact few second it pops, you will no longer be able to move your screen to the town hall and select your worker as the worker will not be there. Due to rally points. Hence it being relevant. Okay, let's take a look at what I said. "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys?" Let's break it down. I'sn't BW macro (in general) just an inject (is similar to larva injects) every 17 seconds (much faster) without hotkeys (no control groups or backspace) The answer is yes--why? Because I never said that injects = granular specificity of zerg BW macro, nor did I try talking about rally point, production cycles or anything else unrelated to injects or worker creation (see that every 17 seconds comment--that was supposed to be the hint) Apparently you think I'm talking about BW zerg macro specifics--so let me show you how I HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT OR BROUGHT UP THAT TOPIC. "Isn't BW macro" "just an inject" "every 17 seconds" "without hotkeys" ie--Is not macro in BW also a system dependent on returning to your town halls regularly to quickly perform a few simple commands in order to maintain economic production. So while you have to go back to the CC/Nexus/Hatch every 17 seconds or your worker production will stop--you also have to go back to your Hatch every 40 seconds otherwise you won't have good production. ITS THE SAME MENIAL TASK ONLY FASTER AND MORE TEDIOUS. It isn't hard to box select a worker and right click on a mineral patch--it isn't hard at all. It's hard to do it every 17 seconds on the dot for every town hall you have. It is also very easy to box select a Queen, hit V and then click on the hatchery to inject. It's difficult to do it every 40 seconds on the dot as you move your queens back and forth to hit medivacs, block off chokes, chase off observers/overlords, etc... Now--since you only have a 17 second rythm instead of a 40 second rythm, it suggests that BW is MUCH HARDER mathematically than SC2 since people already have a hard enough time maintaining injects. However, it also suggests that injects are not as easymode as most people make it out to be on this thread since it is the same mechanical design as macroing in BW. I'm sorry that you did not see that when I said "Isn't BW macro just an inject every 17 seconds without hotkeys" and for some odd reason you interpreted that as me not wanting to talk about rallying drones. Because if you speak english as a second language, I can understand that despite me not talking about drones, rally points, or even zerg macro in general that you seem to think I was only comparing how SC2 zerg makes workers vs BW zerg. It must be because you don't understand english very well. 1. As stated, your purpose of stating no "hotkeys" is retarded and inapplicable. 2. Despite your feeble attempt to keep trying to state you didn't reference anything else, it is impossible to make the comparison you are trying to make without such references. 3. The answer is still no, they are not comparable, because you are punished more severely for not doing it in BW than SC2. This punishment (due to rally points) is entirely relevant to the difficulty of the macro. 4. In BW your hatcheries are not necessarily at expansions, considering you need macro hatches. Particularly in ZvT and ZvP (if Protoss does any build besides Forge FE), unless you are going for an aggressive 2 hatch build in one of these MUs. At most you can try to say your more elaborated statement of "Zerg still consists of returning to your town hall to maintain economic production" is accurate, although that cannot be insinuated in the slightest by your original statement. At the same time, even after your clarification on something so irrelevant and unnecessary, BW macro is not an inject every 17 seconds because the consequences of failing the action is entirely different (due to rally points). But yes, your very basic and extremely general point that it is a thoughtless task, just less demanding, is accurate. Just as muling is a thoughtless task as well. EDIT: And while I'll still maintain it's nigh impossible to decipher what your true intention was behind your initial post that I should have caught on quicker in your subsequent posts. However, in the end, the above points still remain.
Its a general statement--of course it only has a general point!
The only thing that differs to them according to you is how punishing it is in BW--an aspect I did not bring up at all. The task is the same but somehow you would rather talk about the aspects outside of the actual act of macroing. You want to bring up how it is punishing, how rally points are blah de blah as if I posted some kind of thesis.
Unlike SC2 Terran and SC2 Toss Zerg actually *has* to come back to their base and do basic clicks in order for their macro to work just like you have to return to your base in BW. Stop being so defensive on the legitimacy of BW as if I'm insulting it. I was not insulting, no need to get upset.
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On February 07 2013 12:58 Kashll wrote:
Wait are people in here seriously arguing whether Broodwar macro is more difficult than SC2 macro?
Technically, I was trying to say you need to return to your base to inject like you need to return to your base to have workers mine in BW. Then someone got buthurt thinking I was trying to insult BW when I was simply saying that BW has to do it more frequently and all the races have to do it and not just Zerg (unlike in SC2)
Its mostly some guy afraid that I might have said SC2 is BW despite me never saying it.
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Haha, Terran is for manly men. Don't play Terran if you don't have the balls.
+ Show Spoiler +To proxy 11/11 all games, that is. <3
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EPT
