EPTIs Terran to remain the lowest played race? - Page 24
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
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chrusher97
Canada811 Posts
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:14 Emzeeshady wrote: I don't have the time to point out all the problems with what he said. If you can't see for yourself then I feel sorry for you or you didn't actually read what he wrote (lucky you). Your providing 0 substance. Point out anything wrong with his arguments instead of calling names. You just sound like a p/z who got mad about being called out.... | ||
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:17 Scootaloo wrote: Good gods, so what if terran is a bit underpowered right now? Worst that will happen is that people will switch over or stop playing, y'know, like always happens when a certain race is underpowered for a while, I know the feeling is really new for you terrans, but it's not the end of the world. Terran has been in the gutter for over a year... Saying "get over it" is not a healthy way to keep a game alive and it shots with the loss of interest in SC2. Blizz has demonstrated their horrible balancing skills over and over again and I don't expect it to start picking up any time soon even with HoTS. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:17 Scootaloo wrote: Good gods, so what if terran is a bit underpowered right now? Worst that will happen is that people will switch over or stop playing, y'know, like always happens when a certain race is underpowered for a while, I know the feeling is really new for you terrans, but it's not the end of the world. And Ps and Zs just sat there while terrans were OP'ed? Nope, they whined just as loud as terrans were whining now. | ||
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:25 vthree wrote: And Ps and Zs just sat there while terrans were OP'ed? Nope, they whined just as loud as terrans were whining now. I love how ever new cool terran strat got nerfed after seemingly a day or two like the mass ghost while BL/Infester has been the only thing seen from Z for over a year... I just don't under stand blizz at all... | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:20 tokicheese wrote: Your providing 0 substance. Point out anything wrong with his arguments instead of calling names. You just sound like a p/z who got mad about being called out.... Substance just fuels the terran rage. The problem with his argument, like most balance arguments, is that it's just a list of highly subjective examples supposed to prove some emperical unbalance about terran, he probably wasted a lot of time to compile, which the guy you're responding to doesn't feel like throwing away. For instance, to take the first balance argument in his post, basically a whine about how protoss is OP because they can warp and terran can't, completely forgetting that protoss warpgate units are weaker to compensate for this. You see what I did there? Protoss warpgate units being weaker does not prove that warpgate is balanced, nor does the protoss ability to warp in near your base prove protoss is OP. Every fucking time this is how balance discussions go, one idiot just throws out some subjective statement about a game feature and hopes it proves something, then someone else replies with something just as meaningless and the cycle keeps going. If anything, I applaud the guy you're replying to for not forcing on another 10 pages of low level terrans crying about imbalance. Not that I expect any of the hardcore whiners to take this to heart, they're just venting frustration with losing games they believe they should have won based on previous experiences, in a game that has been balanced in terrans favor for most of it's history. | ||
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Scootaloo
655 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:25 vthree wrote: And Ps and Zs just sat there while terrans were OP'ed? Nope, they whined just as loud as terrans were whining now. Most of the time those threads actually got closed pretty quickly because they where a waste of forum space and effort on everyones part, god knows why this thread is still up, every low level terran seeing this thread will just use it as an excuse to blame losses on balance and waste their time here instead of learning to play the game. But alas, I'm getting caught up in this myself, no need to feed this whole mess further. Sometimes I wish TL had the sage function. | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
On February 07 2013 03:49 TheDwf wrote: Or it's 100% true, and the main raison why Terran constantly underperforms below Code A/S level. Yep, especially lategame PvT in which Terran is able to warp Marines/Marauders near your base while you have to wait the slow reinforcements from your Gateways… Oh wait. Please be honest, how many times do we see Terrans winning a fight in lategame TvP, yet they're unable to press on because of how strong Zealots warp-ins + leftover defensive Templars are? Now go check pro games and show me games in which Protoss comes out 30 supply ahead and is unable to do anything. I bet you won't find many instances of this. There are unforgiving aspects in the Protoss side too, but overall warp-ins + Storm/Colossi + Observers + the fact Protoss units are tougher and need less micro (Zealots/Archons/Colossi require virtually none) + the ability to secure remote expands with Pylons/Canons/HTs make Protoss more forgiving. No doubt mass Ghosts/Vikings can be hard to handle, but queuing Zealots/DTs in Terran's mineral lines/bases to dismantle him before he gets this super-expensive army is so easy compared to the amount of micro/attention needed from the Terran side to deal with Zealots (who are very efficient in small fights when both sides are left unmicroed) + DTs while trying to keep at bay Protoss' main army roaming around the PF checking for any sign of weakness to charge. This is so wrong I don't even know how to start. Fragile army? 145 hit points + 1 armor for 75/25 sounds quite beefy to me; Ultralisks with their 500 hit points and 6 armor when fully upgraded disagree too, and what about Corruptors with their 200 hit points and 2 armor? So fragile indeed; if only Zerg had a minerals-only tier1 unit (which, again, doesn't lack sturdiness) which, on top of the unparalleled utility (antiair/defence/production/vision) it already provides, could chain heal single targets too, maybe this “fragility” would be more bearable. Zerg is the epitome of forgiveness in ZvT because of creep/Fungal/larvae. It doesn't matter how far behind Zerg can get, all they need is hit a good Fungal and suddenly the 15 past minuts in which they were massively outplayed barely matter and the game is fully reset. Banking larvae makes it trivial to remax and buy back a second army for another chance while Terran has a hard time bulldozing his army through several screens of creep because you always stand a chance of overextending against 70+ Zerglings (or 30+ Roaches if mech) reinforcements + Fungal. See DRG vs Bomber, Metropolis, IPL5: DRG suicides two Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks armies offcreep charging in horrible positions, yet Bomber has to struggle for another 10 minuts before being able to deal the killing blow. Lose your Hatchery to a non-committed 2 rax? No problem, you still have the right to play a 50 minuts macro game; on the other hand, good luck holding a Roach (Baneling) bust if your 2 rax fails. Kill only 5 SCVs with a Roach poke? Larva inject forgives. Do I also need to mention the numerous games in which Zerg goes Roach Baneling Bust, miserably fails yet it barely matters because 10-15 Drones were built meanwhile at home? On the other hand, watch Hack vs DRG, Icarus, Code S RO32 and Noblesse vs Nestea, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S RO32 to see what happens when Terran is desperate/foolish enough to try a 2-bases timing and fails it; does Zerg need 20 minuts of drawn-out, careful maneuvers to refute Terran's failure? Watch this (Sheth just failed a Roach Baneling bust) and tell me with a straight face this is not forgiving? Did you see Baby/TY vs Leenock, Whirlwind, Code S RO32? Leenock gets permanently dismantled during 15 minuts, barely surviving with one mining base, but in the end everything is forgiven: he still has Broodlords/Infestors and Fungal happens. Just read Lings of Liberty, really, all of this is nothing new. Stating that Zerg is as unforgiving as Terran in TvZ is simply preposterous. Protoss would simply stay at 199/200. Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm sure people will try to make up some bullshit to refute it thought. I know your better than 99 percent of playesr on this site, and you gave analysis, so I hope they respect your opinion. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:14 Emzeeshady wrote: I don't have the time to point out all the problems with what he said. If you can't see for yourself then I feel sorry for you or you didn't actually read what he wrote (lucky you). Really? Because a lot of what he says seems to make sense to the rest of us. Not to mention the fact the TheDwf is an extremely active / helpful blue poster in the strategy forums. I tend to think he knows what he's talking about. That being said, I think his points are a little extreme, but especially in TvZ it really does feel like you can lose your advantage at any moment due to a moment of miscontrol and not paying attention, almost no matter how big that lead was. And when you do get a significant lead (i.e hold a roach / ling / bling attack with very little if any losses), Zerg can pull back into the game quite easily by playing smart and defensively and waiting for their opponent to make a single mistake while if the reverse happens (i.e. Zerg holds off a marauder / hellion push with minimal losses) Terran is so far behind it's almost impossible to recover from and Zerg needs to make several big mistakes for the Terran player to get back into the game. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 07 2013 03:49 TheDwf wrote: + Show Spoiler + Or it's 100% true, and the main raison why Terran constantly underperforms below Code A/S level. On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote: Protoss loses their army once, the game ends. Yep, especially lategame PvT in which Terran is able to warp Marines/Marauders near your base while you have to wait the slow reinforcements from your Gateways… Oh wait. Please be honest, how many times do we see Terrans winning a fight in lategame TvP, yet they're unable to press on because of how strong Zealots warp-ins + leftover defensive Templars are? Now go check pro games and show me games in which Protoss comes out 30 supply ahead and is unable to do anything. I bet you won't find many instances of this. There are unforgiving aspects in the Protoss side too, but overall warp-ins + Storm/Colossi + Observers + the fact Protoss units are tougher and need less micro (Zealots/Archons/Colossi require virtually none) + the ability to secure remote expands with Pylons/Canons/HTs make Protoss more forgiving. No doubt mass Ghosts/Vikings can be hard to handle, but queuing Zealots/DTs in Terran's mineral lines/bases to dismantle him before he gets this super-expensive army is so easy compared to the amount of micro/attention needed from the Terran side to deal with Zealots (who are very efficient in small fights when both sides are left unmicroed) + DTs while trying to keep at bay Protoss' main army roaming around the PF checking for any sign of weakness to charge. On February 07 2013 00:48 DarkLordOlli wrote: Zerg loses their fragile army to something slightly mobile? The game ends because an immediate counter attack kills 2 bases. This is so wrong I don't even know how to start. Fragile army? 145 hit points + 1 armor for 75/25 sounds quite beefy to me; Ultralisks with their 500 hit points and 6 armor when fully upgraded disagree too, and what about Corruptors with their 200 hit points and 2 armor? So fragile indeed; if only Zerg had a minerals-only tier1 unit (which, again, doesn't lack sturdiness) which, on top of the unparalleled utility (antiair/defence/production/vision) it already provides, could chain heal single targets too, maybe this “fragility” would be more bearable. Zerg is the epitome of forgiveness in ZvT because of creep/Fungal/larvae. It doesn't matter how far behind Zerg can get, all they need is hit a good Fungal and suddenly the 15 past minuts in which they were massively outplayed barely matter and the game is fully reset. Banking larvae makes it trivial to remax and buy back a second army for another chance while Terran has a hard time bulldozing his army through several screens of creep because you always stand a chance of overextending against 70+ Zerglings (or 30+ Roaches if mech) reinforcements + Fungal. See DRG vs Bomber, Metropolis, IPL5: DRG suicides two Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks armies offcreep charging in horrible positions, yet Bomber has to struggle for another 10 minuts before being able to deal the killing blow. Lose your Hatchery to a non-committed 2 rax? No problem, you still have the right to play a 50 minuts macro game; on the other hand, good luck holding a Roach (Baneling) bust if your 2 rax fails. Kill only 5 SCVs with a Roach poke? Larva inject forgives. Do I also need to mention the numerous games in which Zerg goes Roach Baneling Bust, miserably fails yet it barely matters because 10-15 Drones were built meanwhile at home? On the other hand, watch Hack vs DRG, Icarus, Code S RO32 and Noblesse vs Nestea, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S RO32 to see what happens when Terran is desperate/foolish enough to try a 2-bases timing and fails it; does Zerg need 20 minuts of drawn-out, careful maneuvers to refute Terran's failure? Watch this (Sheth just failed a Roach Baneling bust) and tell me with a straight face this is not forgiving? Did you see Baby/TY vs Leenock, Whirlwind, Code S RO32? Leenock gets permanently dismantled during 15 minuts, barely surviving with one mining base, but in the end everything is forgiven: he still has Broodlords/Infestors and Fungal happens. Just read Lings of Liberty, really, all of this is nothing new. Stating that Zerg is as unforgiving as Terran in TvZ is simply preposterous. On February 07 2013 02:04 TsGBruzze wrote: i agree that terrans weakness is that they take to long time in late game to mobilse a deffense versus toss and zerg, i dont know how to fix thi tho, maybe make warpgates like bbarracks( queed units is staying at 0% and when your not maxxed anymore it starts to load) Protoss would simply stay at 199/200. I mostly agree, but be careful when citing Lings of Liberty. It's a weird fake pseudo-reverse anti-balance whine thing (that is to say that nobody knows if it's full-on trolling or not, because some parts are reasonable and others are ridiculous). The article drew out massive Terran complains and agreeing nods, while mods and power users were mocking them for not understanding the "humor". Really a trash OP if I ever saw one, but nobody could say so because the guy who posted is apparently also a mod/power user. In short, Terran agreed, Zergs tried to defend themselves, and mods were like "Hahaha, dumbasses, you got trolled, Ver is so funny, hahaha". Not a very good source. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:23 tokicheese wrote: Terran has been in the gutter for over a year... Saying "get over it" is not a healthy way to keep a game alive and it shots with the loss of interest in SC2. Blizz has demonstrated their horrible balancing skills over and over again and I don't expect it to start picking up any time soon even with HoTS. Terrans been in the gutter since May 2012, less than a year, and if MMA is anyone to go by the game is finally balanced again. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 07 2013 14:05 bo1b wrote: Terrans been in the gutter since May 2012, less than a year, and if MMA is anyone to go by the game is finally balanced again. Did MMA say that on stream or something? | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
Said that in an interview with axiom/acer or something. I'll find it in a bit when i get back from work if someone else hasn't. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 07 2013 14:09 bo1b wrote: Said that in an interview with axiom/acer or something. I'll find it in a bit when i get back from work if someone else hasn't. Ok thank you. I'll look for it myself  I personally think that SC2's balance is decent since last couple of infestor nerfs. I just hope we will have a balanced Ro8, why not even Ro4, for last WoL GSL to prove me right :D. We could even dodge the now traditional and expected ZvZ finals, one can dream. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On February 07 2013 14:15 ZenithM wrote: Ok thank you. I'll look for it myself I personally think that SC2's balance is decent since last couple of infestor nerfs. I just hope we will have a balanced Ro8, why not even Ro4, for last WoL GSL to prove me right :D. We could even dodge the now traditional and expected ZvZ finals, one can dream. There won't be. Theres only 1 Protoss in the ro16. Luckily its Parting who has nothing to do but practice for GSL. Anything but ro4 for Parting would be dodgy to me. Which by the way brings me to this, if Terran is so bad right now, why is there only a single Protoss in the ro16 in the best tournament in the world? How many tournaments have Protoss won in the last six months? | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On February 07 2013 14:18 Wingblade wrote: There won't be. Theres only 1 Protoss in the ro16. Luckily its Parting who has nothing to do but practice for GSL. Anything but ro4 for Parting would be dodgy to me. I agree, I wish that this level of balance was achieved about 2 seasons ago, so we would have a more diverse last GSL ever. In any event, here is the interview. http://www.esfiworld.com/interview-with-team-axiomacer-part-1-gstl-team-house-possible-proleague-appearance/ | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On February 07 2013 14:20 bo1b wrote: I agree, I wish that this level of balance was achieved about 2 seasons ago, so we would have a more diverse last GSL ever. In any event, here is the interview. http://www.esfiworld.com/interview-with-team-axiomacer-part-1-gstl-team-house-possible-proleague-appearance/ Interesting how a Zerg(Miya) says that David Kim can't balance a scale much less a complex game, and MMA at least admits Wings is closed to balanced now. | ||
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