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I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see.
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On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see.
1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality.
2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL.
3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1.
EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him.
Warden himself DID NOT deal with the issue in a mature manner. He could have easily kept it under the wraps, and just simply privately contact the team manager. If it was not dealt with, then he would have been correct in escalating the matter. However, that was not the case at all. Both he and Destiny are no better than each other by any stretch of the imagination; Warden may have a legitimate issue with Destiny, but the way he dealt with said issue was absolutely immature, opening up a thread and calling out Destiny on a public forum. Destiny himself was immature; he could have easily ignored said thread and it probably would have rolled over and died. The TL community itself (including the moderators who allowed a PERSONAL grudge match to take place for as long as it did) was immature in the way the whole situation was handled.
Really, the issue isn't even about Destiny at all. This whole incident only demonstrates that the SC2 community is no better than any other gaming community out there, because from top down (including the TL moderators who allowed the personal grudge match thread to go as long as it did, along with the Reddit moderators who basically allowed Destiny to rally his fanboy army) the entire community acted in a completely immature manner. This isn't about who is right or who is wrong in this case. This incident demonstrates to sponsors and other potential investors in E-Sports that we (as in the SC2 community) are not ready to go to the next level. The Starcraft 2 Community always takes about professionalism, maturity, sportsmanship, and manners, and yet the SC2 community can't even avoid simple E-Dramas like this one that has consistently plagued competitive games all the way back to Quake 1.
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On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him.
Destiny was payed for by Razer.
That makes Destiny Razer's product.
People were unhappy with the product.
So people wrote to the company.
The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea.
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On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea.
People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors).
This community knows what happens when a sponsor gets involved. It means someone is going to get sacked, period. No matter what. The EG.Orb incident should have already taught everyone this. Those who went out of there way to contact Razer were attempting to strongarm Destiny just because they felt like they had the power to do so. If they wanted a just and fair punishment, they would have contacted Quantic Gaming's Team Manager, and not Razer. Period. They were simply out to get Destiny, and that makes them no better than Destiny himself.
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On May 10 2012 03:43 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea. People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors).
If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this 
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On May 10 2012 03:45 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:43 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea. People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors). If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this
If anything it only demonstrates the instability of the E-Sports market (and it already is extremely unstable). It demonstrates to the sponsors that the people they are sponsoring are immature, and that the team managers are either inept or have little to no power over their players. It also demonstrates to sponsors that the community itself is extremely fickle, and will pretty much directly strongarm them into doing whatever the fuck they want, whether it is right or wrong. You only see tech/gaming related companies involved in the Western World (Razer with gaming peripherals, Logitech, Intel, etc.) regarding E-Sports. You don't see other "non-tech" companies sponsoring teams/players do you? Want to know why? Because they don't want to deal with shit like this.
In Korea, you see all sorts of non-tech companies involved with the professional BW community. Why? Because the community over there isn't as immature, isn't as fickle as our community. They deal with things in a professional manner. Sometimes it really is over the top, but the fact of the matter is that someone over there stepped up to the plate and said, well, we're going to remove EVERYTHING that is immature, and we're going to have to control virtually everything in order to ensure we get various companies involved. That someone was KESPA. Even though TL posters hate KESPA for their rigidity, they were instrumental in bringing in outside companies into the world of E-Sports.
If you want to avoid future dramatic shit like this, the community needs to shape up. If you want to push E-Sports forward and get rid of dramatic shit like this, someone needs to step up to the plate. Right now we're half assing our "professional" approach. If TL/Reddit/The SC2 community wants a more professional and mature community, then people need to step up to the plate and actually make the community more professional and mature. That means dealing with shit in the PROPER way, and not strong arming players/teams with threats to sponsors. That means NOT posting personal grudge threads on a public forum if you have an issue with another player. That means NOT getting your fanbase to criticize/attack a player that has an issue with you.
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On May 10 2012 03:50 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:45 Taku wrote:On May 10 2012 03:43 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea. People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors). If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this If anything it only demonstrates the instability of the E-Sports market (and it already is extremely unstable). It demonstrates to the sponsors that the people they are sponsoring are immature, and that the team managers are either inept or have little to no power over their players. It also demonstrates to sponsors that the community itself is extremely fickle, and will pretty much directly strongarm them into doing whatever the fuck they want, whether it is right or wrong. You only see tech related companies involved in the Western World (Razer with gaming peripherals, Logitech, Intel, etc.) regarding E-Sports. You don't see other "non-tech" companies sponsoring teams/players do you? Want to know why? Because they don't want to deal with shit like this.
They actually don't want to deal with such a small niche market of white males in their early to late 20's who go about calling people niggers and gooks.
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On May 10 2012 03:00 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:35 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors. My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there). There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing to sponsors and commending them for sponsoring various teams/players/tournaments etc. Don't complain that the sponsors are not getting positive feedback if you are failing to provide that positive feedback. If you have concerns they are not receiving enough positive feedback, then give them some. The sponsors don't like racism, so if the community did not tolerate it and condone racist comments (like some posters in this thread and related thread have been doing), then the sponsors would not have to deal with the issue at all. It is quite simple, no racist comments, no chance of complaints about racist comments being made to sponsors, no sponsors having issues to deal with. Perhaps you should redirect your ire towards those who make racist comments and thus potentially force sponsors to walk away from the scene. Sounds quite simple. So if there's any sort of problem that arises we should just rise up and ignore chain of command structures in teams and just go directly to the sponsors to immediately strong arm any team into doing our bidding? Because that's pretty much what you are implying.
That is not what I implied at all. I said it is possible to give the sponsors positive feedback too.
I also said that racist incidents are what will drive sponsors away. Maybe if you actually criticised those whose racist behaviour is concerning the sponsors instead of condoning their behaviour, they would not act in a way that causes concern to sponsors. Sponsors don't want to deal with players they are associated using racial slurs. So stop these players making racial slurs and then there are no incidents to cause them concern.
It is quite simple.
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On May 10 2012 03:54 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:50 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:45 Taku wrote:On May 10 2012 03:43 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea. People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors). If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this If anything it only demonstrates the instability of the E-Sports market (and it already is extremely unstable). It demonstrates to the sponsors that the people they are sponsoring are immature, and that the team managers are either inept or have little to no power over their players. It also demonstrates to sponsors that the community itself is extremely fickle, and will pretty much directly strongarm them into doing whatever the fuck they want, whether it is right or wrong. You only see tech related companies involved in the Western World (Razer with gaming peripherals, Logitech, Intel, etc.) regarding E-Sports. You don't see other "non-tech" companies sponsoring teams/players do you? Want to know why? Because they don't want to deal with shit like this. They actually don't want to deal with such a small niche market of white males in their early to late 20's who go about calling people niggers and gooks.
They also don't want to deal with a small niche market that has people like you who would condone burning down a building just to get rid of an ant.
On May 10 2012 03:55 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:00 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:35 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors. My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there). There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing to sponsors and commending them for sponsoring various teams/players/tournaments etc. Don't complain that the sponsors are not getting positive feedback if you are failing to provide that positive feedback. If you have concerns they are not receiving enough positive feedback, then give them some. The sponsors don't like racism, so if the community did not tolerate it and condone racist comments (like some posters in this thread and related thread have been doing), then the sponsors would not have to deal with the issue at all. It is quite simple, no racist comments, no chance of complaints about racist comments being made to sponsors, no sponsors having issues to deal with. Perhaps you should redirect your ire towards those who make racist comments and thus potentially force sponsors to walk away from the scene. Sounds quite simple. So if there's any sort of problem that arises we should just rise up and ignore chain of command structures in teams and just go directly to the sponsors to immediately strong arm any team into doing our bidding? Because that's pretty much what you are implying. That is not what I implied at all. I said it is possible to give the sponsors positive feedback too. I also said that racist incidents are what will drive sponsors away. Maybe if you actually criticised those whose racist behaviour is concerning the sponsors instead of condoning their behaviour they would not act in a way that causes concern to sponsors. It is quite simple.
Racist incidents are not just the only thing that drives sponsors away. E-Dramas in general are what drives sponsors away. And this was a clear case of an E-Drama that could have easily been dealt with. If Destiny's racist insults were so offensive, then someone should have contacted the TEAM MANAGER. Period. Like I said, I don't agree with what Destiny said, but some people are like that, and that's just the way they are. It was clearly obvious that Destiny is an immature person who will clearly not stop from day 1, so why was the issue not dealt with then? Why? Because the SC2 community accepted it, otherwise Destiny would not have been sponsored in the first place, and he wouldn't have been able to have a featured stream on TL.
This whole nonsense about racism is a bunch of bullshit; you people accepted him in the first place from day 1. Everyone KNOWS that Destiny is an unsavory character. So why did you deal with all of his shit all the way up until now? Why did people wait SO LONG to deal with him up until now? The fact of the matter is that those who basically ratted him out to Razer simply had a GRUDGE against Destiny. If you had an issue with Destiny's racist comments, his unsavory language, his lack of tact, etc. you (along with the rest of the community) would have stamped it out from day 1.
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On May 10 2012 03:56 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:54 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:50 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:45 Taku wrote:On May 10 2012 03:43 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea. People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors). If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this If anything it only demonstrates the instability of the E-Sports market (and it already is extremely unstable). It demonstrates to the sponsors that the people they are sponsoring are immature, and that the team managers are either inept or have little to no power over their players. It also demonstrates to sponsors that the community itself is extremely fickle, and will pretty much directly strongarm them into doing whatever the fuck they want, whether it is right or wrong. You only see tech related companies involved in the Western World (Razer with gaming peripherals, Logitech, Intel, etc.) regarding E-Sports. You don't see other "non-tech" companies sponsoring teams/players do you? Want to know why? Because they don't want to deal with shit like this. They actually don't want to deal with such a small niche market of white males in their early to late 20's who go about calling people niggers and gooks. They also don't want to deal with a small niche market that has people like you who would condone burning down a building just to get rid of an ant. Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:55 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 03:00 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:35 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors. My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there). There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing to sponsors and commending them for sponsoring various teams/players/tournaments etc. Don't complain that the sponsors are not getting positive feedback if you are failing to provide that positive feedback. If you have concerns they are not receiving enough positive feedback, then give them some. The sponsors don't like racism, so if the community did not tolerate it and condone racist comments (like some posters in this thread and related thread have been doing), then the sponsors would not have to deal with the issue at all. It is quite simple, no racist comments, no chance of complaints about racist comments being made to sponsors, no sponsors having issues to deal with. Perhaps you should redirect your ire towards those who make racist comments and thus potentially force sponsors to walk away from the scene. Sounds quite simple. So if there's any sort of problem that arises we should just rise up and ignore chain of command structures in teams and just go directly to the sponsors to immediately strong arm any team into doing our bidding? Because that's pretty much what you are implying. That is not what I implied at all. I said it is possible to give the sponsors positive feedback too. I also said that racist incidents are what will drive sponsors away. Maybe if you actually criticised those whose racist behaviour is concerning the sponsors instead of condoning their behaviour they would not act in a way that causes concern to sponsors. It is quite simple. Racist incidents are not just the only thing that drives sponsors away. E-Dramas in general are what drives sponsors away. And this was a clear case of an E-Drama that could have easily been dealt with. If Destiny's racist insults were so offensive, then someone should have contacted the TEAM MANAGER. Period. Like I said, I don't agree with what Destiny said, but some people are like that, and that's just the way they are.
Do you have anything to support this statement 'E-Dramas in general are what drives sponsors away'?
Other than your own personal opinion.
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On May 10 2012 03:56 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:54 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:50 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:45 Taku wrote:On May 10 2012 03:43 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea. People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors). If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this If anything it only demonstrates the instability of the E-Sports market (and it already is extremely unstable). It demonstrates to the sponsors that the people they are sponsoring are immature, and that the team managers are either inept or have little to no power over their players. It also demonstrates to sponsors that the community itself is extremely fickle, and will pretty much directly strongarm them into doing whatever the fuck they want, whether it is right or wrong. You only see tech related companies involved in the Western World (Razer with gaming peripherals, Logitech, Intel, etc.) regarding E-Sports. You don't see other "non-tech" companies sponsoring teams/players do you? Want to know why? Because they don't want to deal with shit like this. They actually don't want to deal with such a small niche market of white males in their early to late 20's who go about calling people niggers and gooks. They also don't want to deal with a small niche market that has people like you who would condone burning down a building just to get rid of an ant. Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:55 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 03:00 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:35 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors. My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there). There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing to sponsors and commending them for sponsoring various teams/players/tournaments etc. Don't complain that the sponsors are not getting positive feedback if you are failing to provide that positive feedback. If you have concerns they are not receiving enough positive feedback, then give them some. The sponsors don't like racism, so if the community did not tolerate it and condone racist comments (like some posters in this thread and related thread have been doing), then the sponsors would not have to deal with the issue at all. It is quite simple, no racist comments, no chance of complaints about racist comments being made to sponsors, no sponsors having issues to deal with. Perhaps you should redirect your ire towards those who make racist comments and thus potentially force sponsors to walk away from the scene. Sounds quite simple. So if there's any sort of problem that arises we should just rise up and ignore chain of command structures in teams and just go directly to the sponsors to immediately strong arm any team into doing our bidding? Because that's pretty much what you are implying. That is not what I implied at all. I said it is possible to give the sponsors positive feedback too. I also said that racist incidents are what will drive sponsors away. Maybe if you actually criticised those whose racist behaviour is concerning the sponsors instead of condoning their behaviour they would not act in a way that causes concern to sponsors. It is quite simple. Racist incidents are not just the only thing that drives sponsors away. E-Dramas in general are what drives sponsors away. And this was a clear case of an E-Drama that could have easily been dealt with. If Destiny's racist insults were so offensive, then someone should have contacted the TEAM MANAGER. Period. Like I said, I don't agree with what Destiny said, but some people are like that, and that's just the way they are.
I'm not joking about niche markets. White males in their 20-30's is a tiny section of society. The gaming industry already as a reputation of being either bro-ish ala madden fans, or nerd-ish ala magic the gathering fans. The current perception is that gamers are either basement dwellers, or rude obnoxious fighting game button mashers saying bitch and rape all day.
Do you want to know how to be taken seriously outside of gaming companies? Expand the market by making a more all inclusive community. How does one do that? By being very much against racist and misogynistic shit.
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On May 10 2012 03:56 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:54 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:50 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:45 Taku wrote:On May 10 2012 03:43 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea. People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors). If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this If anything it only demonstrates the instability of the E-Sports market (and it already is extremely unstable). It demonstrates to the sponsors that the people they are sponsoring are immature, and that the team managers are either inept or have little to no power over their players. It also demonstrates to sponsors that the community itself is extremely fickle, and will pretty much directly strongarm them into doing whatever the fuck they want, whether it is right or wrong. You only see tech related companies involved in the Western World (Razer with gaming peripherals, Logitech, Intel, etc.) regarding E-Sports. You don't see other "non-tech" companies sponsoring teams/players do you? Want to know why? Because they don't want to deal with shit like this. They actually don't want to deal with such a small niche market of white males in their early to late 20's who go about calling people niggers and gooks. They also don't want to deal with a small niche market that has people like you who would condone burning down a building just to get rid of an ant. Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:55 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 03:00 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:35 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors. My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there). There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing to sponsors and commending them for sponsoring various teams/players/tournaments etc. Don't complain that the sponsors are not getting positive feedback if you are failing to provide that positive feedback. If you have concerns they are not receiving enough positive feedback, then give them some. The sponsors don't like racism, so if the community did not tolerate it and condone racist comments (like some posters in this thread and related thread have been doing), then the sponsors would not have to deal with the issue at all. It is quite simple, no racist comments, no chance of complaints about racist comments being made to sponsors, no sponsors having issues to deal with. Perhaps you should redirect your ire towards those who make racist comments and thus potentially force sponsors to walk away from the scene. Sounds quite simple. So if there's any sort of problem that arises we should just rise up and ignore chain of command structures in teams and just go directly to the sponsors to immediately strong arm any team into doing our bidding? Because that's pretty much what you are implying. That is not what I implied at all. I said it is possible to give the sponsors positive feedback too. I also said that racist incidents are what will drive sponsors away. Maybe if you actually criticised those whose racist behaviour is concerning the sponsors instead of condoning their behaviour they would not act in a way that causes concern to sponsors. It is quite simple. Racist incidents are not just the only thing that drives sponsors away. E-Dramas in general are what drives sponsors away. And this was a clear case of an E-Drama that could have easily been dealt with. If Destiny's racist insults were so offensive, then someone should have contacted the TEAM MANAGER. Period. Like I said, I don't agree with what Destiny said, but some people are like that, and that's just the way they are.
This was a clear case of a racist incident. Not an E-Drama in general. Why not stick to the specific incident at hand?
Contacting the Team Manager is certainly an option to register a complaint. I am not disputing that. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the root of this issue is players making racist comments that worry sponsors. Maybe instead of jumping through hoops to defend these players making these comments you should be critical of them because they can drive sponsorship away.
You seem angry at people because you have judged their actions might drive away sponsors, but you fail to criticise Destiny for his behaviour when it is this behaviour that is driving away sponsors because they have to publicly disassociate themselves from it.
In other words, if you main worry is driving away sponsors why not condemn Destiny instead of giving him a pass for his behaviour by saying some people are like that.
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On May 10 2012 02:49 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:17 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 02:00 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 01:23 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. . I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism. Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist? This entire thread has been slowly shifting to supporting discrimination, specifically racism due to the fact that many are arguing that it is bad. These arguments are old and haven't changed for a LONG time. So instead of continuing to make arguments based on the stance of the "majority" (read: greater good) of the community, we should just accept that it exists and regulate it so that appropriate audiences can choose to watch it if they desire to. Shit like this is what I actually do find offensive. "The side I am defending originated from an anti-racism viewpoint, therefore everyone who opposes me is a racist!" Fuck. That. I challenge you to find a single damn person in any of these threads who is pro-racism. No one is saying racism is good. That's not what any of these discussions are about. I can't understand why people can't comprehend that, or even how this thought got into their heads in the first place. The entire discussion is about how it is appropriate to react when you encounter a racial slur - do you ignore it, do you complain about it, do you fire the guy, do you shoot him in the head. Somewhere along the spectrum of possible responses is the best all-around choice for the situation. I am of the opinion that the response should be less intense than "angry mob". Apparently others disagree. But not a single person here is supporting racism, and blindly accusing others of racism is as bad as using racial slurs yourself. Getting offended over something you don't understand? Here, let me try again.
Blech. I spent so much time around thickheaded ideologues who see any non-supportive statement as a personal attack, that I became like them.
Sorry. I'm done with this thread.
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On May 10 2012 03:45 Taku wrote:If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this
only partially because a bunch of loud mouths do not represent the community, well they do because they are the people the won't shut the fuck up and blow things into the extreme and then the entire group boned.
Contacting the team first is the only and best way. And by the way letting like a couple days or more for them to sort out shit is not the end of the world ffs its called desicion making you play a game about it apply some knowledge.
yeah Destiny gets burnt the most for the dumb and stupid shit he says but thats just who he is or atleast his persona in the scene. Trust me if some big name football player slipped something he'd say or have a written apology and be off the hook. Yeah its a bad image yeah its not optimal event of things but it was a risk they took signing him.
being passionate and being a butthurt troll because you aren't a fan or they bm'd you on ladder once isnt' the end of the world and not a reason to force not nessecary things to happen. If a player makes some kind of wave that somebody is offended or hurt by a player as a community its one thing to bark at the team alot to make them knock it off or hide it from public view or whatever. But the "witchhunts" or the "mob mentality fuckfest" that rampages till its head is quelled their rage its just obnoxious write them off as a troll and don't read the thread or don't watch the streams
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Dont worry guys.
Once a few more instances like this happen, especially if its one of Quantics players. Then the sponsor will drop support of the team. Since the community seems to want sponsors to stop sponsoring us, maybe they will realize the way to follow a 'hierarchy' after some some Team gets fucked completely.
Currently all the drama is focusing on players, but teams are going to start to be affected by this. The community should follow a 'hierarchy' when making complaints. If i dont like something at my job, i complain to my supervisor, i dont spam the CEO of the company. Go to the fucking team for gods sake.
Learn to follow hierarchy. Please stop before teams start getting affected, your no longer lynching just Destiny/Orb/Whoever fucks up.....Like let me ask you this? Is punishing Denstiny worth also punishing SaSe? Because the way we are going about things, were gonna negatively affect players that are good.
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On May 10 2012 04:23 ohampatu wrote:
Dont worry guys.
Once a few more instances like this happen, especially if its one of Quantics players. Then the sponsor will drop support of the team. Since the community seems to want sponsors to stop sponsoring us, maybe they will realize the way to follow a 'hierarchy' after some some Team gets fucked completely.
Currently all the drama is focusing on players, but teams are going to start to be affected by this. The community should follow a 'hierarchy' when making complaints. If i dont like something at my job, i complain to my supervisor, i dont spam the CEO of the company. Go to the fucking team for gods sake.
Learn to follow hierarchy. Please stop before teams start getting affected, your no longer lynching just Destiny/Orb/Whoever fucks up.....Like let me ask you this? Is punishing Denstiny worth also punishing SaSe? Because the way we are going about things, were gonna negatively affect players that are good.
Or the sane option where teams stop supporting players who say racist shit.
The community won't send complaint letters--because there's nothing to complain about.
The team becomes a more involved entity--giving them more legitimacy.
The sponsors get to never worry about anything since the teams are proactively managing themselves istead o waiting for shit to hit the fan.
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On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1.
Can you explain what you mean by number 1, I don't even follow it. Though I mean it not really as a request so much as a literal question. I don't think you can explain what you just said in any logical fashion, if you can I'll be surprised.
I wonder at some point if you'll ever have to deal with a dysfunctional customer service line, where you can talk to 5 different shift supervisors and their middle manager superiors as you slowly go insane. Destiny has been doing this shit forever, it's obvious that whatever system you are envisioning wasn't working here. Quantic absolutely knew what they were getting. Which is also number 3, yes, they should never have picked him up.
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On May 10 2012 04:52 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. Can you explain what you mean by number 1, I don't even follow it. Though I mean it not really as a request so much as a literal question. I don't think you can explain what you just said in any logical fashion, if you can I'll be surprised. I wonder at some point if you'll ever have to deal with a dysfunctional customer service line, where you can talk to 5 different shift supervisors and their middle manager superiors as you slowly go insane. Destiny has been doing this shit forever, it's obvious that whatever system you are envisioning wasn't working here. Quantic absolutely knew what they were getting. Which is also number 3, yes, they should never have picked him up.
This is exactly my point.
The Starcraft 2 Community has put up/accepted Destiny for who he is for a very long time. So why the fuck are people riding his ballsack right now for no apparent reason when this was daily shit that has occurred for so long that most people don't even care?
On May 10 2012 04:06 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:56 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:54 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:50 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:45 Taku wrote:On May 10 2012 03:43 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:40 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 03:23 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 03:07 Resistentialism wrote:
I find it strange you or anyone would think that destiny was dealt with too quickly, too summarily, for the way he behaved. He's been at it almost as long as the game has been out. The actual case being discussed is the best argument for going to the top of the chain of command that one could probably reasonably hope to see. 1) You're dragging past history into this; simple mob mentality. 2) The actions that were offensive was the insult he hurled at Warden; Warden reacting the way was also unprofessional / immature. If he had an issue there was no need to create a thread about it; all he needed to do was contact Destiny's Team Manager, and if he couldn't, then HE should have been the one to contact the sponsors, not TL. 3) If you truly believed that his past behavior was the issue here (which it was clearly not) then Destiny should have been sacked/removed from TL/All types of sponsorships well over a year ago, because he has been at this since day 1. EG.Alex has gone on record asking TL and Reddit to not go directly to sponsors and to give teams time to deal with the situation. The situation regarding Destiny simply blew up over night. What happened was a knee jerk reaction by the TL community (those who complained directly to the sponsors) because they were butthurt that Destiny wasn't going to change his ways. Rather than dealing with the situation properly (contacting the Team Manager), they directly went to the sponsors because they were no longer mad about his racist insult; they were mad at Destiny just because they wanted to cause some sort of malicious harm towards him. Destiny was payed for by Razer. That makes Destiny Razer's product. People were unhappy with the product. So people wrote to the company. The team should have better control of their players like they do in Korea. People wrote to the company for the sole reason of causing malicious harm towards Destiny. That's not a complaint; that's pretty much being a toolbag for lack of a better term. Sure, what they did was "technically" right, but in the end, no one is a winner. Destiny gets removed, and E-Sports community loses potential sponsors (or might even lose current sponsors). If anything, this would prove to sponsors how 'passionate' the fans are about E-sports if they really did get a notable volume of emails about this If anything it only demonstrates the instability of the E-Sports market (and it already is extremely unstable). It demonstrates to the sponsors that the people they are sponsoring are immature, and that the team managers are either inept or have little to no power over their players. It also demonstrates to sponsors that the community itself is extremely fickle, and will pretty much directly strongarm them into doing whatever the fuck they want, whether it is right or wrong. You only see tech related companies involved in the Western World (Razer with gaming peripherals, Logitech, Intel, etc.) regarding E-Sports. You don't see other "non-tech" companies sponsoring teams/players do you? Want to know why? Because they don't want to deal with shit like this. They actually don't want to deal with such a small niche market of white males in their early to late 20's who go about calling people niggers and gooks. They also don't want to deal with a small niche market that has people like you who would condone burning down a building just to get rid of an ant. On May 10 2012 03:55 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 03:00 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:35 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors. My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there). There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing to sponsors and commending them for sponsoring various teams/players/tournaments etc. Don't complain that the sponsors are not getting positive feedback if you are failing to provide that positive feedback. If you have concerns they are not receiving enough positive feedback, then give them some. The sponsors don't like racism, so if the community did not tolerate it and condone racist comments (like some posters in this thread and related thread have been doing), then the sponsors would not have to deal with the issue at all. It is quite simple, no racist comments, no chance of complaints about racist comments being made to sponsors, no sponsors having issues to deal with. Perhaps you should redirect your ire towards those who make racist comments and thus potentially force sponsors to walk away from the scene. Sounds quite simple. So if there's any sort of problem that arises we should just rise up and ignore chain of command structures in teams and just go directly to the sponsors to immediately strong arm any team into doing our bidding? Because that's pretty much what you are implying. That is not what I implied at all. I said it is possible to give the sponsors positive feedback too. I also said that racist incidents are what will drive sponsors away. Maybe if you actually criticised those whose racist behaviour is concerning the sponsors instead of condoning their behaviour they would not act in a way that causes concern to sponsors. It is quite simple. Racist incidents are not just the only thing that drives sponsors away. E-Dramas in general are what drives sponsors away. And this was a clear case of an E-Drama that could have easily been dealt with. If Destiny's racist insults were so offensive, then someone should have contacted the TEAM MANAGER. Period. Like I said, I don't agree with what Destiny said, but some people are like that, and that's just the way they are. This was a clear case of a racist incident. Not an E-Drama in general. Why not stick to the specific incident at hand? Contacting the Team Manager is certainly an option to register a complaint. I am not disputing that. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the root of this issue is players making racist comments that worry sponsors. Maybe instead of jumping through hoops to defend these players making these comments you should be critical of them because they can drive sponsorship away. You seem angry at people because you have judged their actions might drive away sponsors, but you fail to criticise Destiny for his behaviour when it is this behaviour that is driving away sponsors because they have to publicly disassociate themselves from it. In other words, if you main worry is driving away sponsors why not condemn Destiny instead of giving him a pass for his behaviour by saying some people are like that.
My complaint is that people are basically being a bunch of hypocrites crying foul years after everyone knows about Destiny's attitude. How come TL didn't just stamp out Destiny's stream from day 1? Why not contact the streaming companies to let them know about Destiny's behaviors and how they negatively affect the community? Why not? Because Destiny was an accepted member of the community until somebody (aka Warden) got severely butthurt and threw up a witchunt thread. No one gave a fuck about what Destiny said for literally years. And now all of a sudden people care? Don't be a fucking hypocrite like the rest of this community.
The issue was NOT a racism issue. The issue was not about behavioral issues. The issue was someone got real butthurt because he got insulted online, and then created a witchhunt thread for the sole reason of causing malicious harm to another person. This issue could have been handled in a much different way, and it could have been stopped by MULTIPLE people (Warden, Destiny, TL Moderators, TL Community Members, Reddit Moderators, etc.) but people let it go on because the fact of the matter is no matter how you spin it, competitive gamers love E-Drama for whatever reason. This is not holding people accountable in the slightest; this is no better than the parents out there who live to get teachers in public districts sacked from their jobs.
Destiny can and should be able to say whatever the fuck he wants on his stream, and you shouldn't care. Want to know why? Because you, along with the rest of this community didn't do jack diddly squat for 2 years, and pretty much let Destiny do whatever the hell he wanted without any kind of repercussion (as well as guys like Idra). Now you want to turn around, and hold him accountable for it, and do it in an unprofessional, immature manner that not only harms someone who could have just made an honest mistake, but also the community as a whole? That's a load of horseshit.
Fact of the matter is that you can't say what anyone did was right, because what everyone did was WRONG. Period. TL, Reddit, Destiny, Warden, everyone. For all the talk of an intelligent, mature, and professional community (and I've been around gaming communities for awhile, including the so called cesspool of the FG community), the Starcraft 1/2 community still can't get away from the simple E-Dramas that plague other games.
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On May 10 2012 04:59 superstartran wrote:
The Starcraft 2 Community has put up/accepted Destiny for who he is for a very long time. So why the fuck are people riding his ballsack right now for no apparent reason when this was daily shit that has occurred for so long that most people don't even care?
The 19th century United States had put up with slavery for what it is for a very long time. So who was this Lincoln dude riding their ballsacks back then for no apparent reason when this was daily shit that has occurred for so long that most people didn't even care?
The fact that something has been happening for a long time is not a reason to keep it that way.
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What warden said was not a lie. He didn't fabricate anything. Destiny acted the way he did and now he's punished for it. That's it. Case closed.
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EPT
