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@CarpetCleaner,
You keep implying that racism and offensive language in general will kill anything it is associated to? Rash behavior will kill anything it associated to?
Then why didn't Mayweather kill boxing when he called us Filipinos midgets that should cook him sushi and rice, and at the same time wasn't booted but rather fined? Why didn't McEnroe kill tennis for calling the AUDIENCE, UNILATERALLY, ALONG WITH OFFICIALS, as TRASH and VULTURES? Why did NONE of them get booted, but instead got fined and suspended, and why did their sports survive despite their behavior?
We keep saying not to hide it under the rug, but also not to react like we did. FINING AND SANCTIONING (i.e. McEnroe's 2-month, $65k price for repetitive offensive behavior, which includes destruction of tennis property) is the PROFESSIONAL thing to do. And the best people to decide what sanctions to take? THE PROFESSIONALS. That's why we should lobby for a professional regulating body to be born, instead of all this mob and unprofessional action! It hurts and further deligitemizies e-sports because we're saying, through our actions, that we don't want a regulatory body and we will police ourselves, something no other real sport does (and has uncomfortable tones of vigilante justice).
Plus, if that's how things will go, where the teams are circumvented, then why not disband all teams altogether and reform them under the banner of sponsors instead? What's the point of teams if we won't look to them as the first people to contact when we have concerns regarding their players?
Pfft.
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On May 10 2012 15:53 DN.rSquar3d wrote: @CarpetCleaner,
You keep implying that racism and offensive language in general will kill anything it is associated to? Rash behavior will kill anything it associated to?
Then why didn't Mayweather kill boxing when he called us Filipinos midgets that should cook him sushi and rice, and at the same time wasn't booted but rather fined? Why didn't McEnroe kill tennis for calling the AUDIENCE, UNILATERALLY, ALONG WITH OFFICIALS, as TRASH and VULTURES? Why did NONE of them get booted, but instead got fined and suspended, and why did their sports survive despite their behavior?
We keep saying not to hide it under the rug, but also not to react like we did. FINING AND SANCTIONING (i.e. McEnroe's 2-month, $65k price for repetitive offensive behavior, which includes destruction of tennis property) is the PROFESSIONAL thing to do. And the best people to decide what sanctions to take? THE PROFESSIONALS. That's why we should lobby for a professional regulating body to be born, instead of all this mob and unprofessional action! It hurts and further deligitemizies e-sports because we're saying, through our actions, that we don't want a regulatory body and we will police ourselves, something no other real sport does (and has uncomfortable tones of vigilante justice).
Plus, if that's how things will go, where the teams are circumvented, then why not disband all teams altogether and reform them under the banner of sponsors instead? What's the point of teams if we won't look to them as the first people to contact when we have concerns regarding their players?
Pfft.
McEnroe didn't say any bigoted words and he was "punished" for his behavior regardless. And quit putting words in my mouth. I didn't say racism and offensive language in general will kill everything. I wasn't even discussing about offensive language in general but only the ones that target to particular race related which can be a very sensitive issue in the real world.
I was only mocking apologists like you screaming the death of E-sports and attacking people for making racial slurs an issue. I proceed and said if anything were to kill E-sports it would be hiding these sensitive issues under the rug. And enough with the hyperbole of calling everyone mobs and witch-hunters when destiny fan boys were the biggest mobs and witch-hunter-lynchers in this incident.
As for Destiny getting banned, he was unlisted in TL for a month and lost his sponsor. He wasn’t banned from any tournament or punished from any progaming organization so the comparison with McEnroe is moot point. In fact in the case of Tiger Woods he lost a lot of his sponsors and rightfully so. If he threw a racial slur on top of that he would have lost the remainder. Get your facts straight lol. It’s funny how the people complaining the most about E-drama are the biggest drama queens. In that sense, he wasn’t punished at all while mayweather was at least fined.
Biggest problem with mayweather case is the prevalent of reverse racism in USA. This is another issue but I’m against reverse racism as just as much and it’s something people refuse to talk about in the US or any European countries. I’m not some silly tree hugging liberal who thinks only white people can be racist. But even mayweather with the backing of racist Al Sharpton still got punished in some way. Only thing we really disagree on is the degree of punishment and in Destiny’s case he got less punished than most professional athletes. Get over it. I hate mayweather but at least he is good at something unlike Destiny who isn’t good at anything.
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[QUOTE]On May 10 2012 05:12 superstartran wrote: [QUOTE]On May 10 2012 05:06 pirsq wrote: [QUOTE]On May 10 2012 04:59 superstartran wrote:
It's like the people out there in America that bitch about the economy and shit but never vote. That's exactly what happened here. No one expressed their discontent with Destiny being a prominent member in the Starcraft community despite his flaws. People actually liked him and didn't have an issue with him at all. Same with Orb, and various other players. Idra is also another player who gets away with alot of shit that is almost on the same level as racism (calling people retards is highly offensive, especially towards those who may have some sort of mental handicap or those with family members/friends that are mentally handicapped). And yet now here we are, with a bunch of people basically out for Destiny's blood because all of a sudden he's a fucking demon for hurling an insult that he's hurled for years on end just because Warden got massively butthurt.[/QUOTE]
Don't bring in Idra or even Orb who actually apologized. Orb got fired and rightfully so but he didn't go out looking like some spoiled little brat. You can't possibly say retard and nigger are the same. Retard is a general insult for anyone and it's normally perceived that way in our society. I'm not saying it's right to say retard and if there were mentally challenged people that were offended by his comments they would have surely sent complaints to EG and I wouldn't object to any punishment Idra would have received.
And then you have Destiny who actually say nigger to blacks and gook to Asians. He constantly makes fun of people with autism. He constantly makes sexist remarks. He even makes fun of his own guests. Like when he was streaming with Megumi (japanese descent) he was spewing all kinds of offensive Asian jokes. He also doesn’t have problem saying “Oh I shot that nigger” after killing a black guy in a shooting game. He even contradicts his own “content argument” and to me he is just making excuses for his childish and hateful behavior.
My question is how someone like him can be even featured in a professional gaming site as TL. You seriously think it’s same as Idra raging and saying couple of curse words.
Destiny is getting all the flames because of bigoted words not curse words or even few slip ups due to rage. It’s in his identity and it’s how he gets viewers who are usually just as childish and asinine as himself. Community and the sponsors stepped up and send a clear message that it won’t be tolerated. What’s there not to understand?
Do people seriously think there is no fine line between calling someone a fucker after rage quitting and calling someone a dumb nigger? How old are you guys? Here is one for the destiny fans. It’s funny coming from someone like Destiny who is 5’2’’ and would likely be an easy target for bullies in the real world. Note that this isn’t what I would say to him and in noway reflects how I feel about Destiny but this is just an example how there is a clear fine line between offensive words. There is definitely a line nobody should cross and you can't continue to excuse yourself in the name of free speech especially in a professional environment and especially from someone who has a sponsor.
“5’2’’ midget cracker”
“X-toilet scrubber”
“Carpet cleaning scumbag”
“Carpet cleaning beaner (he said he is half Hispanic)”
“Idiot that got divorced”
“Idiot with bastard child”
“I feel sorry for his bastard child”
“Pale like albino, your arms look like twigs”
“Dumb pale spic, highschool drop out”
Hey Destiny. It ain’t “tee hee” funny when the same insults are directed to you, eh? My point is, those are very hateful words and shouldn’t be tolerated at all in any professional community BUT by Destiny and his fan boys’ standard it just “only” words and only sticks and stones can harm you. Yeah right. It’s going to be really nice to see professional gamers trying to outwit themselves with the hardest racial slurs and side step it by saying “Oh I’m just trying to be funny tee hee herp derp huehuehuehue” “I’m not a racizt I iz don meeen it becuz some comedian bra sed so, word” Yep for the good of E-sports and anyone who objects to it are killing it. /sarcasm
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On May 10 2012 15:53 DN.rSquar3d wrote: Why did NONE of them get booted, but instead got fined and suspended, and why did their sports survive despite their behavior? Firstly, it's unreasonable to implement fines in Starcraft because very few people actually earn money. Secondly, there's a vast difference between players and commentators. Commentators are held to a higher standard of professionalism for many reasons: 1. They are the ones in direct communication with the audience; 2. They're not the ones actually playing and thus aren't emotionally committed; 3. They're usually employed by large media organisations with a significant concern for public relations; and 4. Their skill is difficult to measure (as opposed to player skill), and thus they are often preceived as easier to replace.
I haven't seen any players dismissed outright for unprofessionalism, but I've seen it happen to plenty of commentators. The example that comes to mind is Dean Jones, a cricket commentator and very notable retired player in his own right, who was fired for a relatively tame remark he made (referring to someone with an enormous beard as "the terrorist", which is pretty offensive, but nowhere near the level of "you fucking gook") during what he thought was a commercial break (as opposed to proclaiming it straight in someone's face).
Starcraft is more complicated, because often the commentators are commentating on their own games. The points remains, though, that there is plenty of precedent in other sports for dismissing a commentator for unprofessional remarks made on the air. As for survival, no one is arguing Starcraft will die if the racial abuse stays, but a sport known for unprofessional behaviour certainly won't attract as many sponsors as otherwise.
Edit: Couple more examples I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Snyder http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/19/espn-fires-employee-jeremy-lin-headline_n_1287591.html
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You really don't get the comparison I made. Lulz.
McEnroe consistently did what he did and he was destroying property. Michael Llodra (the one issue you seem keen on avoiding, lulz) literally called a fan, in person, a "fucking Chinese." Woods did infidelity. Mayweather was blatantly racist and was seen by more people; he directed his insults TO ME, TO MY RACE (look at my damn location).
None of them got booted; two of them were more racist than Destiny and were more visible, and yet the didn't get booted. And you say Destiny was punished less? Maybe you should get your facts straight. And I kept repeating the punishments handed out to these players and exactly what they did (I can't get wrong because I am a tennis fan as well as a boxing fan) and I certainly read my fair share of news.
And you call me an apologist? I even repeatedly said that I WANT Destiny punished, BUT THIS IS TOO MUCH. Especially when you take the whole sphere of sports in general and the appropriate punishments, along with who forced "justice" to be done, which was done without deliberation nor professional thought (hence my proposal for us lobbying for a professional e-sports regulatory body). I even reached a sense of agreement with someone on the other spectrum (i.e. one who says the punishment was ok), simply because he was able to acknowledge my statements, as well as argue in a calm, decisive manner. Read previous posts, willya?
As for McEnroe being bigoted, ever heard of the rather masculinist challenge of his to the Williams sisters? I doubt. Or maybe you conveniently skipped over that fact.
I keep citing them because HOW they are punished and WHO deliberates and hands out those punishments is HOW PROFESSIONAL SPORTS DOES IT. Professionals do the job, NOT MOBS. NOT THE FANS. NOT WHOEVER YOU WANT TO CALL YOURSELVES. Maybe the morality police.
Edit: @prisq, I'm currently gonna go home; will reply ASAP but skimming through your post I'd agree with 90% of it. Just lemme get home and get back atcha.
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[QUOTE]On May 10 2012 17:27 CarpetCleaner wrote: [QUOTE]On May 10 2012 05:12 superstartran wrote: [QUOTE]On May 10 2012 05:06 pirsq wrote: [QUOTE]On May 10 2012 04:59 superstartran wrote:
It's like the people out there in America that bitch about the economy and shit but never vote. That's exactly what happened here. No one expressed their discontent with Destiny being a prominent member in the Starcraft community despite his flaws. People actually liked him and didn't have an issue with him at all. Same with Orb, and various other players. Idra is also another player who gets away with alot of shit that is almost on the same level as racism (calling people retards is highly offensive, especially towards those who may have some sort of mental handicap or those with family members/friends that are mentally handicapped). And yet now here we are, with a bunch of people basically out for Destiny's blood because all of a sudden he's a fucking demon for hurling an insult that he's hurled for years on end just because Warden got massively butthurt.[/QUOTE]
Don't bring in Idra or even Orb who actually apologized. Orb got fired and rightfully so but he didn't go out looking like some spoiled little brat. You can't possibly say retard and nigger are the same. Retard is a general insult for anyone and it's normally perceived that way in our society. I'm not saying it's right to say retard and if there were mentally challenged people that were offended by his comments they would have surely sent complaints to EG and I wouldn't object to any punishment Idra would have received.
And then you have Destiny who actually say nigger to blacks and gook to Asians. He constantly makes fun of people with autism. He constantly makes sexist remarks. He even makes fun of his own guests. Like when he was streaming with Megumi (japanese descent) he was spewing all kinds of offensive Asian jokes. He also doesn’t have problem saying “Oh I shot that nigger” after killing a black guy in a shooting game. He even contradicts his own “content argument” and to me he is just making excuses for his childish and hateful behavior.
This. Post. I completely agree.
My question is how someone like him can be even featured in a professional gaming site as TL. You seriously think it’s same as Idra raging and saying couple of curse words.
Destiny is getting all the flames because of bigoted words not curse words or even few slip ups due to rage. It’s in his identity and it’s how he gets viewers who are usually just as childish and asinine as himself. Community and the sponsors stepped up and send a clear message that it won’t be tolerated. What’s there not to understand?
Do people seriously think there is no fine line between calling someone a fucker after rage quitting and calling someone a dumb nigger? How old are you guys? Here is one for the destiny fans. It’s funny coming from someone like Destiny who is 5’2’’ and would likely be an easy target for bullies in the real world. Note that this isn’t what I would say to him and in noway reflects how I feel about Destiny but this is just an example how there is a clear fine line between offensive words. There is definitely a line nobody should cross and you can't continue to excuse yourself in the name of free speech especially in a professional environment and especially from someone who has a sponsor.
“5’2’’ midget cracker”
“X-toilet scrubber”
“Carpet cleaning scumbag”
“Carpet cleaning beaner (he said he is half Hispanic)”
“Idiot that got divorced”
“Idiot with bastard child”
“I feel sorry for his bastard child”
“Pale like albino, your arms look like twigs”
“Dumb pale spic, highschool drop out”
Hey Destiny. It ain’t “tee hee” funny when the same insults are directed to you, eh? My point is, those are very hateful words and shouldn’t be tolerated at all in any professional community BUT by Destiny and his fan boys’ standard it just “only” words and only sticks and stones can harm you. Yeah right. It’s going to be really nice to see professional gamers trying to outwit themselves with the hardest racial slurs and side step it by saying “Oh I’m just trying to be funny tee hee herp derp huehuehuehue” “I’m not a racizt I iz don meeen it becuz some comedian bra sed so, word” Yep for the good of E-sports and anyone who objects to it are killing it. /sarcasm [/QUOTE]
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On May 10 2012 17:27 CarpetCleaner wrote: + Show Spoiler +On May 10 2012 05:12 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 05:06 pirsq wrote:On May 10 2012 04:59 superstartran wrote:
It's like the people out there in America that bitch about the economy and shit but never vote. That's exactly what happened here. No one expressed their discontent with Destiny being a prominent member in the Starcraft community despite his flaws. People actually liked him and didn't have an issue with him at all. Same with Orb, and various other players. Idra is also another player who gets away with alot of shit that is almost on the same level as racism (calling people retards is highly offensive, especially towards those who may have some sort of mental handicap or those with family members/friends that are mentally handicapped). And yet now here we are, with a bunch of people basically out for Destiny's blood because all of a sudden he's a fucking demon for hurling an insult that he's hurled for years on end just because Warden got massively butthurt. Don't bring in Idra or even Orb who actually apologized. Orb got fired and rightfully so but he didn't go out looking like some spoiled little brat. You can't possibly say retard and nigger are the same. Retard is a general insult for anyone and it's normally perceived that way in our society. I'm not saying it's right to say retard and if there were mentally challenged people that were offended by his comments they would have surely sent complaints to EG and I wouldn't object to any punishment Idra would have received. And then you have Destiny who actually say nigger to blacks and gook to Asians. He constantly makes fun of people with autism. He constantly makes sexist remarks. He even makes fun of his own guests. Like when he was streaming with Megumi (japanese descent) he was spewing all kinds of offensive Asian jokes. He also doesn’t have problem saying “Oh I shot that nigger” after killing a black guy in a shooting game. He even contradicts his own “content argument” and to me he is just making excuses for his childish and hateful behavior. My question is how someone like him can be even featured in a professional gaming site as TL. You seriously think it’s same as Idra raging and saying couple of curse words. Destiny is getting all the flames because of bigoted words not curse words or even few slip ups due to rage. It’s in his identity and it’s how he gets viewers who are usually just as childish and asinine as himself. Community and the sponsors stepped up and send a clear message that it won’t be tolerated. What’s there not to understand? Do people seriously think there is no fine line between calling someone a fucker after rage quitting and calling someone a dumb nigger? How old are you guys? Here is one for the destiny fans. It’s funny coming from someone like Destiny who is 5’2’’ and would likely be an easy target for bullies in the real world. Note that this isn’t what I would say to him and in noway reflects how I feel about Destiny but this is just an example how there is a clear fine line between offensive words. There is definitely a line nobody should cross and you can't continue to excuse yourself in the name of free speech especially in a professional environment and especially from someone who has a sponsor. “5’2’’ midget cracker” “X-toilet scrubber” “Carpet cleaning scumbag” “Carpet cleaning beaner (he said he is half Hispanic)” “Idiot that got divorced” “Idiot with bastard child” “I feel sorry for his bastard child” “Pale like albino, your arms look like twigs” “Dumb pale spic, highschool drop out” Hey Destiny. It ain’t “tee hee” funny when the same insults are directed to you, eh? My point is, those are very hateful words and shouldn’t be tolerated at all in any professional community BUT by Destiny and his fan boys’ standard it just “only” words and only sticks and stones can harm you. Yeah right. It’s going to be really nice to see professional gamers trying to outwit themselves with the hardest racial slurs and side step it by saying “Oh I’m just trying to be funny tee hee herp derp huehuehuehue” “I’m not a racizt I iz don meeen it becuz some comedian bra sed so, word” Yep for the good of E-sports and anyone who objects to it are killing it. /sarcasm
I dont agree with any racial / Homophobic / extremely offensive insults (the above and beyond, e.g window licking retard.) but my god the way you try and get your point across is ridiculous, you come across as a 12 yr old.
[Quote] It’s funny coming from someone like Destiny who is 5’2’’ and would likely be an easy target for bullies in the real world.
<Insert "watch out" meme here>
Really? Anybody who pulls out that crap is immediately disregarded by anyone. One of the most immature comments around, commonly heard from children running around blabbering on about how "high" they are, how they going out now, have to buy beer and go to ep1c partay, when in fact they are sitting there with there haribo's and coke and off to play some CoD on xbox. (Or something similiar.)
I suggest you take a look through what you type before you post it, or try and calm yourself down, if your stressed or something. Nobody is going to take you seriously posting the way you are
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Sorry about the 1st post mods i meant to say somethinf at the end of the postbut iphone glitched. I meant to say its a very good post
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Since we don't have any governing body to deal with such situations it is only natural to come to somebody who actually have some authority - that is sponsors.
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@pirsq, here's my take.
I completely agree with the commentators thing. As Day9 said, in e-sports, the "personality of the game" as he termed it, revolves around the commentators. Add in the fact that, historically speaking (as with your example with Jimmy Snyder, as well as the "Chink in the Armor" writer), commentators have always been given less leeway than the actual athletes themselves. Maybe it's because of the emphasis on factuality with regards to journalism (been in that field a few years back; really, really strict on facts and neutrality), I don't know.
Yep, I agree that the lack of professionalism on part of our players is also something that will drive sponsors away. We're kind of like dealing with extremes. That's why I've really been pushing for less of the two, and I think we can only reach that middle ground of professionalism by having a true governing body.
@deimoso, you imply teams don't have any authority. Remember EG and how they fine IdrA, as well as fire Orb. I believe that, even without the pressure of the community (other than them revealing the racist slurs), EG would still have fired Orb later on once they finished investigating the issue (as Alex Garfield implied by asking for the community to wait as they investigate the issue at hand). That's why I say we should go to the team first before the actual sponsors, and at the same time push for that governing body. Korea has one; why can't we build on that?
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I agree. Witch hunting is getting overboard...
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On May 10 2012 15:53 DN.rSquar3d wrote: @CarpetCleaner,
You keep implying that racism and offensive language in general will kill anything it is associated to? Rash behavior will kill anything it associated to?
Then why didn't Mayweather kill boxing when he called us Filipinos midgets that should cook him sushi and rice, and at the same time wasn't booted but rather fined? Why didn't McEnroe kill tennis for calling the AUDIENCE, UNILATERALLY, ALONG WITH OFFICIALS, as TRASH and VULTURES? Why did NONE of them get booted, but instead got fined and suspended, and why did their sports survive despite their behavior?
We keep saying not to hide it under the rug, but also not to react like we did. FINING AND SANCTIONING (i.e. McEnroe's 2-month, $65k price for repetitive offensive behavior, which includes destruction of tennis property) is the PROFESSIONAL thing to do. And the best people to decide what sanctions to take? THE PROFESSIONALS. That's why we should lobby for a professional regulating body to be born, instead of all this mob and unprofessional action! It hurts and further deligitemizies e-sports because we're saying, through our actions, that we don't want a regulatory body and we will police ourselves, something no other real sport does (and has uncomfortable tones of vigilante justice).
Plus, if that's how things will go, where the teams are circumvented, then why not disband all teams altogether and reform them under the banner of sponsors instead? What's the point of teams if we won't look to them as the first people to contact when we have concerns regarding their players?
Pfft.
The punishment was decided by the sponsors and the team--if you disagree with the level of the punishment, then complain to Razer and Quantic.
People complained to Razer because Destiny was being racist. Destiny would not apologize or attempt to make amends. Razer was informed of his behavior. Razer then decided he needed to be punished.
The severity of the punishment was Razer's and Quantic's decision. Some even think it was Destiny's decision. So if you disagree with the severity or choice of punishment--then talk to the people who decided that. Destiny, Razer, or Quantic--or most likely a combination of the three.
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On May 10 2012 18:34 DN.rSquar3d wrote: You really don't get the comparison I made. Lulz.
McEnroe consistently did what he did and he was destroying property. Michael Llodra (the one issue you seem keen on avoiding, lulz) literally called a fan, in person, a "fucking Chinese." Woods did infidelity. Mayweather was blatantly racist and was seen by more people; he directed his insults TO ME, TO MY RACE (look at my damn location).
None of them got booted; two of them were more racist than Destiny and were more visible, and yet the didn't get booted. And you say Destiny was punished less? Maybe you should get your facts straight. And I kept repeating the punishments handed out to these players and exactly what they did (I can't get wrong because I am a tennis fan as well as a boxing fan) and I certainly read my fair share of news.
And you call me an apologist? I even repeatedly said that I WANT Destiny punished, BUT THIS IS TOO MUCH. Especially when you take the whole sphere of sports in general and the appropriate punishments, along with who forced "justice" to be done, which was done without deliberation nor professional thought (hence my proposal for us lobbying for a professional e-sports regulatory body). I even reached a sense of agreement with someone on the other spectrum (i.e. one who says the punishment was ok), simply because he was able to acknowledge my statements, as well as argue in a calm, decisive manner. Read previous posts, willya?
As for McEnroe being bigoted, ever heard of the rather masculinist challenge of his to the Williams sisters? I doubt. Or maybe you conveniently skipped over that fact.
I keep citing them because HOW they are punished and WHO deliberates and hands out those punishments is HOW PROFESSIONAL SPORTS DOES IT. Professionals do the job, NOT MOBS. NOT THE FANS. NOT WHOEVER YOU WANT TO CALL YOURSELVES. Maybe the morality police.
Edit: @prisq, I'm currently gonna go home; will reply ASAP but skimming through your post I'd agree with 90% of it. Just lemme get home and get back atcha.
It’s like talking to a brick wall. Lulz.
You are so warped in your own mind I think you even forgot what we were arguing in the first place. You keep putting words in my mouth, exaggerate it, and then use it as a strawman argument. Like how you insist I said or implied that using offensive words would kill everything.
Same way you exaggerate and go overboard with the punishment Destiny got. You can type in caps all you want on how it was TOO MUCH but the fact of the matter is he got measly 1 month suspension from TL and lost his sponsor where he wasn’t getting paid in the first place. Also, it wasn’t because of one word that cost him his sponsor but accumulation of racist, sexist, homophobic remarks over the course of a year and his unapologetic and unprofessional attitude after the issue was brought up to him.
All the athletes in your own example were either fined or punished in some way or another, the same way Destiny got punished by his sponsor for being a racist douchebag for an entire year. And the same reason why Complexity also released him. Can you please stop with all the crazy talk and hyperbole of him getting booted from the scene? Your comparisons with the professional athletes don’t even apply here since Destiny received zero punishment from the actual leagues or any gaming organization. (MLG, IPL, GSL, Dreamhack, IEM, etc) Better example would be Nike dropping Kobe during the sexual assault case.
Quit blaming everything on the community. It was only matter of time Destiny was released with the way he behaved. It’s not like he is a skilled player (arguably the worst player with pro status) and with his continued below average performances he’ll likely have been released anyway. Quit creating imaginary angry mobs to suit your argument. Was it the angry mob that got Destiny released from Complexity? He got what he deserved. Only thing the community did was bring awareness and justifiably so. Deal with it and quit intensifying the E-Drama.
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On May 10 2012 22:36 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 15:53 DN.rSquar3d wrote: @CarpetCleaner,
You keep implying that racism and offensive language in general will kill anything it is associated to? Rash behavior will kill anything it associated to?
Then why didn't Mayweather kill boxing when he called us Filipinos midgets that should cook him sushi and rice, and at the same time wasn't booted but rather fined? Why didn't McEnroe kill tennis for calling the AUDIENCE, UNILATERALLY, ALONG WITH OFFICIALS, as TRASH and VULTURES? Why did NONE of them get booted, but instead got fined and suspended, and why did their sports survive despite their behavior?
We keep saying not to hide it under the rug, but also not to react like we did. FINING AND SANCTIONING (i.e. McEnroe's 2-month, $65k price for repetitive offensive behavior, which includes destruction of tennis property) is the PROFESSIONAL thing to do. And the best people to decide what sanctions to take? THE PROFESSIONALS. That's why we should lobby for a professional regulating body to be born, instead of all this mob and unprofessional action! It hurts and further deligitemizies e-sports because we're saying, through our actions, that we don't want a regulatory body and we will police ourselves, something no other real sport does (and has uncomfortable tones of vigilante justice).
Plus, if that's how things will go, where the teams are circumvented, then why not disband all teams altogether and reform them under the banner of sponsors instead? What's the point of teams if we won't look to them as the first people to contact when we have concerns regarding their players?
Pfft. The punishment was decided by the sponsors and the team--if you disagree with the level of the punishment, then complain to Razer and Quantic. People complained to Razer because Destiny was being racist. Destiny would not apologize or attempt to make amends. Razer was informed of his behavior. Razer then decided he needed to be punished. The severity of the punishment was Razer's and Quantic's decision. Some even think it was Destiny's decision. So if you disagree with the severity or choice of punishment--then talk to the people who decided that. Destiny, Razer, or Quantic--or most likely a combination of the three.
Exactly, it's common sense and it's how it works in the real world. Funny how most people agreed with this notion in the first 4-5 page until the fanboys spotted this thread. The biggest irony is how the crowds that are against the E-drama are the ones that are intensifying it. In fact, they made it an E-drama when it shouldn't have been in the first place. What exactly is abnormal about sponsors releasing players who think it's okay to throw racial slurs while representing a professional company and on top of that have no intention of stopping.
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The problem is that so far, there is no clear cut set of rules to be applied in situations like the ones mentioned in the OP.
As I have already stated in another thread, our society has replaced vigilante justice by a law system for good reason. Does anyone really think the former is preferable to the latter?
I understand the guys upset with racial slurs messaging sponsors. However, are you fully aware and ok with it that complaining to sponsors might have consequences for employees involved with sponsoring in this very company? That it might have drastic consequences for all team members of the guy you want to get rid of? Is it better than all other options that you might have? Is it the right point in time to directly contact sponsors?
The thing is, everybody weigh these things for themselves and come to different conclusions, and think they're right. At least in the case of Orb, people went to sponsors before team EG even had a chance to sort things out with him and decide on the proper course of action. They might just as well have fired him, giving you what you wanted without damaging their hard built ties to the companies giving them money. By going to the sponsors after a short amount of time, the community ruined this possible option.
Also, in the case of Orb, truth was mixed with false accusations. If the community does not give the team the time to sort things like these out, it could happen that completely innocent people get punished before their chance to clear themselves.
Sponsors don't owe any of the teams anything. They can stop sponsoring on a whim. It's not like they owe the community to be fair in cases like these. True or false accusations, they can just retreat if they feel that they have more risk than mileage from sponsoring. Which means that there is a lot of potential to do damage which never can be repaired if it turns out that a shitstorm hit the wrong people.
Without rules or laws our own judgement is all we have, and in some cases complaining to sponsors quickly might just be the right thing. However, I fear that some people posting in this thread are very quick to judge what they are going to do.
On May 10 2012 22:36 lorkac wrote: The punishment was decided by the sponsors and the team--if you disagree with the level of the punishment, then complain to Razer and Quantic.
People complained to Razer because Destiny was being racist. Destiny would not apologize or attempt to make amends. Razer was informed of his behavior. Razer then decided he needed to be punished.
The severity of the punishment was Razer's and Quantic's decision. Some even think it was Destiny's decision. So if you disagree with the severity or choice of punishment--then talk to the people who decided that. Destiny, Razer, or Quantic--or most likely a combination of the three.
Here's the thing: The power to handle the case was taken away from Quantic as soon as sponsors were involved. Razer could have very well just stopped sponsoring them without giving the whole incident a second thought. This is why many people argue that contacting sponsors should be a last resort. If you really feel that the team doesn't handle things properly, then go ahead message sponsors.
But at least in the Orb incident, the team wasn't even given a chance to do something since sponsors were pulled in after such a short amount of time.
Ultimately, without some kind of "Esports Association" (not necessarily exactly like KESPA ), stuff like this will happen over and over again.
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On May 11 2012 00:00 FridgeLogic wrote:The problem is that so far, there is no clear cut set of rules to be applied in situations like the ones mentioned in the OP. As I have already stated in another thread, our society has replaced vigilante justice by a law system for good reason. Does anyone really think the former is preferable to the latter? I understand the guys upset with racial slurs messaging sponsors. However, are you fully aware and ok with it that complaining to sponsors might have consequences for employees involved with sponsoring in this very company? That it might have drastic consequences for all team members of the guy you want to get rid of? That it is better than all other options that you might have? That it is the right point in time to directly contact sponsors? The thing is, everybody weigh these things for themselves and come to different conclusions, and think they're right. At least in the case of Orb, people went to sponsors before team EG even had a chance to sort things out with him and decide on the proper course of action. They might just as well have fired him, giving you what you wanted without damaging their hard built ties to the companies giving them money. By going to the sponsors after a short amount of time, the community ruined this possible option. Also, in the case of Orb, truth was mixed with false accusations. If the community does not give the team the time to sort things like these out, it could happen that completely innocent people get punished before their chance to clear themselves. Sponsors don't owe any of the teams anything. They can stop sponsoring on a whim. It's not like they owe the community to be fair in cases like these. True or false accusations, they can just retreat if they feel that they have more risk than mileage from sponsoring. Which means that there is a lot of potential to do damage which never can be repaired if it turns out that a shitstorm hit the wrong people. Without rules or laws our own judgement is all we have, and in some cases complaining to sponsors quickly might just be the right thing. However, I fear that some people posting in this thread are very quick to judge what they are going to do. Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 22:36 lorkac wrote: The punishment was decided by the sponsors and the team--if you disagree with the level of the punishment, then complain to Razer and Quantic.
People complained to Razer because Destiny was being racist. Destiny would not apologize or attempt to make amends. Razer was informed of his behavior. Razer then decided he needed to be punished.
The severity of the punishment was Razer's and Quantic's decision. Some even think it was Destiny's decision. So if you disagree with the severity or choice of punishment--then talk to the people who decided that. Destiny, Razer, or Quantic--or most likely a combination of the three. Here's the thing: The power to handle the case was taken away from Quantic as soon as sponsors were involved. Razer could have very well just stopped sponsoring them without giving the whole incident a second thought. This is why many people argue that contacting sponsors should be a last resort. If you really feel that the team doesn't handle things properly, then go ahead message sponsors. But at least in the Orb incident, the team wasn't even given a chance to do something since sponsors were pulled in after such a short amount of time. Ultimately, without some kind of "Esports Association" (not necessarily exactly like KESPA ), stuff like this will happen over and over again.
Destiny called someone a gook--that is fact. People were unhappy with Destiny's behavior--that is fact. People filed complaints as they are allowed to--that is fact. Destiny was punished--that is also fact.
The decided punishment was decided by a combination of Destiny, Quantic, or Razer. Their ultimate decision no matter who decided it was for destiny to be let go. That was their decision. Any complaints about the harshness of the punishment should be directed towards those who decided upon it.
It's obvious that in both Orb's and Destiny's cases that it was racial bigotry that caused issues. It's very easy for teams to simply take a stand against bigotry, misogyny, etc... Simply include it in the contract. Do a sensitivity session once a year or so--to remind players how to handle themselves in public (and to also define what "public" means)
With just a little bit of management responsibility the teams can prevent this from happening again.
I did not write a letter to Razer--because I didn't care that Destiny said what he did. This doesn't mean that people who complained about Destiny is invalid--their opinion is as valid as my opinion, as valid as your opinion. If teams managed their players so that the players didn't gaff as badly as Destiny or Orb did, there wouldn't be any problem with sponsors at all.
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On May 09 2012 10:10 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 09:42 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 09 2012 09:29 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 09:08 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote: Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day. The point is, the community shouldn't be targeting any terms at all. I'm sure someone with a mentally challenged child thinks "retarded" is more offensive than "gook". If this silly community really must take these issues into their own hands than be consistent about it or the community will look even worse than it already does. Are you defending your right to say gook by saying its silly to think retarded is offensive? Equating another social group with being weaker or less than another social group is wrong. Yes, that includes retard, bitch, gyp, pollack, Limey, etc... The reason they are bad is not because they are offensive--being offensive has no bearing on this. The reason they are wrong is because you are equating a race or class or sex or whatever as being an insult. If I was upset a someone, I wouldn't call him smart and beautiful because I find those terms uplifting. I would instead call that person negative descriptors like shit, fucker, asshole. But racists and bigots see no difference between calling someone Asian (gook) and calling that same person an idiot. To racists, idiotic and Asian are synonyms. As is black (nigger) and dangerous. As is woman (bitch) and weak. To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male. We're not asking for people to stop being offensive, we're asking them to stop thinking that calling others a race you dislike is a legitimate insult. Not at all, I'm saying they're both offensive and shouldn't be said. All I'm saying is that if you're going to punish someone for saying "gook" you would also have to punish them for saying "retarded". Whether you think Destiny or anyone else equates the word "gook" with "idiot" holds no bearing because you can't punish them based on your opinion. The only thing they can be punished for is saying or typing the word, you can't punish them for what they meant by it because no one knows what they meant by it. "To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male." Please think before you insinuate that all racists are white males.... Please learn to read? "To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male" Does not mean that only white males are racists. It means exactly what it means. Calling someone gook (which is calling them asian) should not be an insult since the only thing "insulting" about it is that a gook is not white. Calling someone a bitch should not be insulting because the only reason it is insulting is because you're calling them a woman. In no way did I say that only white males are racist, what I'm saying is that describing someone as non-white non-male should not be an accepted form of insult. You'd see that if you learned to read words instead of simply pretending to read them. And there is no "opinion" in my description of what happened with Destiny. Destiny got upset at someone and called him the most insulting thing he could figure out at that immediate moment--asian. It could have been African, it could have been Homosexual--it's really arbitrary because he probably sees all three of these descriptors as an insulting thing to call another person. This isn't some strange logic vodoo that I am concocting, it's literally the meaning of the word. He called someone a gook because he believes that calling someone a gook is insulting. He called him a gook because Destiny finds the word gook insulting. Calling someone a gook does not do anything other than describe the person as Asian. Which means Destiny called that person the most insulting thing he could figure out at the time--Asian. This is not taking my opinion and projecting it--this is literally taking him at his word. Literally at his word. You also seem to think that somehow there is this secret handshake that you need to do in order to become one of those "letter writers." For example, when you said I'm assuming that you know that you could very easily write your own letter to sponsors to complain or praise about anything you want. People decided that they didn't like racist language--so they wrote to sponsors about it. If you truly believe that words like retard is just as offensive as racial slurs--then by all means write to the sponsors about it. You don't have to limit yourself to simply the writings of others--if you truly believe in what you're saying then by all means write to the sponsors about how neither gook nor retard should be said. You are free to do so. You're even free to write page after page of rants about how people shouldn't use the word retard. It's in your hands. Just because you feel that others aren't zealous enough does not mean you shouldn't stick up for your beliefs. Unless you don't actually care about non-whites and the handicap. If not, then you're also welcome to simply sit idle and watch them being attacked. The inaction of others should not be a deterrent for your own actions.
"To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male" <-- That does not equal that --> "what I'm saying is that describing someone as non-white non-male should not be an accepted form of insult."
I have read both of those sentences, not pretended to read them. Like you said, they mean exactly what they mean, which isn't the same thing.
Next, the word Asian is not what Destiny said, and there is a very, very clear difference between the word Asian and gook. The fact that you think they are one in the same in terms of their meaning and the way they are used is shocking. IMO Destiny called him a gook because it is a powerful word, like nigger is. That being said, it is still only your opinion that Destiny was thinking "I fucking hate Asians so I'll call him a gook". He may very well only see racial slurs as powerful words when he says them and not link them to a race at all, it all comes down to each individuals opinion of Destiny.
Finally, I don't care if pros use bad words or racial slurs of any kind because they hold no power for me personally and I don't care if other viewers are offended whatsoever. All I was saying is that for those who are contacting sponsors and getting people fired, there should be consistency. I.e. if someone gets punished for saying gook, they should also be punished for saying retard. Obviously my thoughts will make no impact, but I thought I would state them anyways.
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On May 11 2012 00:12 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 00:00 FridgeLogic wrote:The problem is that so far, there is no clear cut set of rules to be applied in situations like the ones mentioned in the OP. As I have already stated in another thread, our society has replaced vigilante justice by a law system for good reason. Does anyone really think the former is preferable to the latter? I understand the guys upset with racial slurs messaging sponsors. However, are you fully aware and ok with it that complaining to sponsors might have consequences for employees involved with sponsoring in this very company? That it might have drastic consequences for all team members of the guy you want to get rid of? That it is better than all other options that you might have? That it is the right point in time to directly contact sponsors? The thing is, everybody weigh these things for themselves and come to different conclusions, and think they're right. At least in the case of Orb, people went to sponsors before team EG even had a chance to sort things out with him and decide on the proper course of action. They might just as well have fired him, giving you what you wanted without damaging their hard built ties to the companies giving them money. By going to the sponsors after a short amount of time, the community ruined this possible option. Also, in the case of Orb, truth was mixed with false accusations. If the community does not give the team the time to sort things like these out, it could happen that completely innocent people get punished before their chance to clear themselves. Sponsors don't owe any of the teams anything. They can stop sponsoring on a whim. It's not like they owe the community to be fair in cases like these. True or false accusations, they can just retreat if they feel that they have more risk than mileage from sponsoring. Which means that there is a lot of potential to do damage which never can be repaired if it turns out that a shitstorm hit the wrong people. Without rules or laws our own judgement is all we have, and in some cases complaining to sponsors quickly might just be the right thing. However, I fear that some people posting in this thread are very quick to judge what they are going to do. On May 10 2012 22:36 lorkac wrote: The punishment was decided by the sponsors and the team--if you disagree with the level of the punishment, then complain to Razer and Quantic.
People complained to Razer because Destiny was being racist. Destiny would not apologize or attempt to make amends. Razer was informed of his behavior. Razer then decided he needed to be punished.
The severity of the punishment was Razer's and Quantic's decision. Some even think it was Destiny's decision. So if you disagree with the severity or choice of punishment--then talk to the people who decided that. Destiny, Razer, or Quantic--or most likely a combination of the three. Here's the thing: The power to handle the case was taken away from Quantic as soon as sponsors were involved. Razer could have very well just stopped sponsoring them without giving the whole incident a second thought. This is why many people argue that contacting sponsors should be a last resort. If you really feel that the team doesn't handle things properly, then go ahead message sponsors. But at least in the Orb incident, the team wasn't even given a chance to do something since sponsors were pulled in after such a short amount of time. Ultimately, without some kind of "Esports Association" (not necessarily exactly like KESPA ), stuff like this will happen over and over again. Destiny called someone a gook--that is fact. People were unhappy with Destiny's behavior--that is fact. People filed complaints as they are allowed to--that is fact. Destiny was punished--that is also fact. The decided punishment was decided by a combination of Destiny, Quantic, or Razer. Their ultimate decision no matter who decided it was for destiny to be let go. That was their decision. Any complaints about the harshness of the punishment should be directed towards those who decided upon it. It's obvious that in both Orb's and Destiny's cases that it was racial bigotry that caused issues. It's very easy for teams to simply take a stand against bigotry, misogyny, etc... Simply include it in the contract. Do a sensitivity session once a year or so--to remind players how to handle themselves in public (and to also define what "public" means) With just a little bit of management responsibility the teams can prevent this from happening again. I did not write a letter to Razer--because I didn't care that Destiny said what he did. This doesn't mean that people who complained about Destiny is invalid--their opinion is as valid as my opinion, as valid as your opinion. If teams managed their players so that the players didn't gaff as badly as Destiny or Orb did, there wouldn't be any problem with sponsors at all. One more quick thing; Destiny's punishment was ultimately decided by the community. What else could razer and Quantic do? Once something like what Destiny did is seen or heard in this community, the anger and outcry spreads like wildfire. So any complaints about the harshness of the punishment should be directed towards the community itself, as the community is the judge and jury here.
And please, for the love of god, DO NOT complain to sponsors. No one can stop anyone from complaining to sponsors of course but now is the time to attract sponsors not drive them away with complaints AND/OR racism.
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On May 11 2012 06:04 knOxStarcraft wrote: Destiny's punishment was ultimately decided by the community. Yes. And who are you, Mark Ferraz, or anyone else to say that the decision of the community is somehow "wrong" because it does not comply with your personal opinions? What gives any one person the right to dictate what the community should or should not do?
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On May 10 2012 15:25 CarpetCleaner wrote:Show nested quote +The Starcraft Community brought the fucking sledgehammer for a personal grudge match that could have easily been resolved in a PM chat. Destiny will be Destiny; it's his prerogative to do whatever the flying fuck he wants. I don't like the guy, and I never watch his stream. But for the community to go out there and attempt to ruin him when there was no negative sentiment against him (UNTIL Warden threw up that thread) only demonstrates the community's mob mentality. You are just a fan boy. Come out of the closet and admit it. You are so biased defending Destiny, people would think Warden was the offender and Destiny the victim. Destiny being destiny? How about Warden being Warden? And are you serious when you say stuff like there were no negative sentiment against Destiney before Warden started that thread? This is what I call blind fanboyism. Destiny is what I call a ticking time bomb. It was only matter of time. And no you can't do whatever the fuck you want when you are sponsored by a professional company and when you are featured in one of the biggest gaming site. Maybe in kindergarten and if you are 7, not in the real world buddy. Show nested quote +Remember, this is a guy who various Starcraft 2 Community members thought was funny, creative, etc. and a great personality. Yes, he has negative traits about him, and yes, they should be fixed. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't have the right to complain when you should have complained way fucking long ago. Alot of people liked him before this incident, and really no one had an issue with him up until this point. TL allowed Destiny to be a featured streamer, and he's a well known and prominent figure in both the TL and Reddit Starcraft communities. Yet the whole fucking place flips on a dime the second someone gets butthurt by one of his insults, and then throws up a witchhunt thread just to fuck with him. Completely delusional of reality. I can say for sure that 2/3rd of the community see Destiny as an immature douche bag that lives in his own little world with a mindset of a 12 years old. He is at best a high diamond level player. He has his own little niche group that are loud, obnoxious, and just as asinine as Destiny himself. If he were to leave the scene now, the vast majority of the community won't miss him. Show nested quote +It's like the people out there in America that bitch about the economy and shit but never vote. That's exactly what happened here. No one expressed their discontent with Destiny being a prominent member in the Starcraft community despite his flaws. People actually liked him and didn't have an issue with him at all. Same with Orb, and various other players. Idra is also another player who gets away with alot of shit that is almost on the same level as racism (calling people retards is highly offensive, especially towards those who may have some sort of mental handicap or those with family members/friends that are mentally handicapped). And yet now here we are, with a bunch of people basically out for Destiny's blood because all of a sudden he's a fucking demon for hurling an insult that he's hurled for years on end just because Warden got massively butthurt. Look at all the new threads created by Destiny himself, his apologists and his fans in TL, reddit, 4chan. It's clear to me who is really massively butthurt. And this is over a little thread created by a non-prominent member of the starcraft community. (see what I did there lol) Warden addressed an issue that needed to be addressed and he delivered. I know some are too young or too immature to realize how big of an issue this can be in real life but to dump all the blame on Warden who didn't even contact the sponsor is silly. Discussion wasn't that bad until fan boys started flooding in and made it bigger than what it really should have been. It wouldn't have gone 150 pages and 2 threads closed if it weren't for the drama queens, mob lynching, witch hunting and enraged justin bieber fans (*destiny fans) Did you guys even apologize to Warden after spreading false information of him BMing ala the real witchhunt? The first 75 page were mostly people calling Warden a hypocrite on a fabricated basis and Destiny throwing childish insults to TL members and mods. No wonder people emailed the sponsor. And just NO, stuff like this isn't killing E-sport. There are no previous examples where sponsors pulled off an entire scene because of one douche bag. Enough with the strawman argument. In fact, hiding it under the rug is what most likely will kill E-sport.
1) You're biased as hell. I don't even like Destiny, but Destiny would smash 99.9% of the people talking in this thread in SC2 and he hardly plays as much as he used to. If I was a fanboy I would have defended everything Destiny did; I didn't. My point is that the community here is so hypocritical and fickle it makes me laugh. You guys let people like Destiny, Idra, etc. have free passes as long as they don't affect you, but the second you have a chance, you turn on them when you get the opportunity. It really does make me laugh pretty hard seeing this kind of stuff.
2) Warden is a notorious troll/rager/huge nerd from HoN/DotA 2. The reason why people started pulling this shit on Warden is because of the fact that he's done shit like this in those other gaming communities too. *Gasp* There's a reason why Warden has no team in DotA 2 and he has to play with other massive trolls like JAH. You think Warden didn't think a shitstorm wouldn't ensue with him posting a thread in a public forum? Gtfo.
3) Destiny was doing whatever he wanted for years on end and no one said anything or had an issue. The issue is not an issue of racism; you guys didn't give a flying fuck for years and all of a sudden care. It just makes me laugh. You're nothing but a bunch of hypocrites who will turn on anyone in a second just because someone got really butthurt about what someone else said.
And yes, people trying to strong arm teams through sponsors hurts E-Sports tremendously. If you think it doesn't, then why the hell did EG.Alex ask people to contact the sponsors and say positive things? Why did EG.Alex say "guys, please don't contact our sponsors, let us handle the situation, etc. etc.?"
It's really fucking amazing the amount of double standards TL has. You want to professionalize SC2 and make the players act according to how you want, however you don't want to give up your power as the vigilante mob of justice by allowing some sort of central organization to control things. You can't have it both ways. My point is if you demand professionalization, then you have to MAKE sacrifices, and you have to ALLOW the teams to DO THEIR FUCKING JOB. In both cases of Orb and Destiny, neither EG or QuanticGaming were allowed enough time to handle the situation, instead people fucking jump onto the bandwagon and pretty much force the sponsor and the team's hand.
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