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Can you point to anyone that was made less racist by these firings? If anything you've radicalized the racists with your disproportionate response. Maybe thats what the mobs wanted all along.
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On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism.
Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do.
So how is my reading comprehension now?
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That's some quality cherrypicking, my friend. (I'll choose to ignore the parts you misinterpreted.)
So how is my reading comprehension now?
Still terrible, if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism, instead of a discussion about how inappropriate behavior should be handled.
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On May 10 2012 01:17 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Don't twist it to make it like the majority of the community sent a letter to Razer. They didn't. The people contacting sponsors are a clear minority. That is all I stated. I feel offended, that you imply that I do not oppose racism. I expect retraction and apology. Funny enough you think that the team should be the right body to complain to and to make a decision. Please tell me how much time passed between the initial accusation and the first mail to the sponsor. Was this time enough to make a rational and informed decision on what to do? Please also take into account the local time.
I did not imply you did not oppose racism. No apology or retraction is required or forthcoming.
I was quite explicit in stating that Quantic should have issued a public statement. How long does this actually take to execute and propogate on TL or twitter? Literally 2 minutes or so. Social media these days enables stories to break very quickly. Quantic need to adjust to this.
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On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:
Don't twist it to make it like the majority of the community sent a letter to Razer. They didn't. The people contacting sponsors are a clear minority. That is all I stated.
I am not too sure if it is important how many people contacted Razer. Even if only one person contacted them and sent them to Warden's thread I am pretty sure that Razer would have acted in the same manner.
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At least people are no longer trying to defend it as "neutral language". Progress, I suppose.
It makes me sad that you have a name from my favorite game franchise. =(
HOw do you think it should of been handled?
The way it went:
1. Thread went up
2. People commented
3. Destiny said he doesn't care and won't stop
4. Quantic refused to respond (if you don't think they were not aware you might be delusional)
5. Sponsors were emailed
Seems fine to me.
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On May 10 2012 01:36 Chocobo wrote:That's some quality cherrypicking, my friend. (I'll choose to ignore the parts you misinterpreted.) Still terrible, if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism, instead of a discussion about how inappropriate behavior should be handled.
The kkk demographic struggle to find a place in modern society. I am sure this is a source of frustration to them. I am sure they would be proud of your efforts to defend racist comments so robustly and using such a variety of changing and shifting arguments.
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On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now?
The issue here is not whether or not race is the real issue. The issue is that people are FORCING racism into the discussion. In each of the instances, what was said was the same as any generic insult because the player in question was raging, with ONE notable difference: the use of a racial slur.
Which of these two is more offensive:
"FUCK YOU YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE AND YOUR DAD TAKES IT UP THE ASS AND YOU LOVE TO EAT SHIT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE..." etc etc etc for five lines
-OR-
"fuck off gook"
Both are bad, yep. Both are immature and offensive, yep. But is there ANYONE here who can honestly say that they've never gotten pissed off and insulted their opponent? The problem I have is that of my two examples, one's pretty blatantly more offensive AND it's more offensive to a much larger group of people (everyone), whereas the second is offensive to a small group of people and only three words, yet it's seen as some absolutely never-okay horrible terrible thing that no decent human being would ever do.
The real issue is that someone got upset, they overreacted, and their overreaction had far harsher consequences than were needed. Not only is this the case for the players who say something stupid, but on the people who get offended and instantly call the fucking sponsors demanding the player's head on a platter.
What needs to be done is for teams to have explicit rules for punishments (fines, suspensions, etc) for these types of offenses. This way when someone uses a special word that's on some blacklist, and some idiots go to the sponsors crying hate-mongering, the team can discipline the player by pre-set rules and the sponsor can point to that if they need to. That way overreactions can be punished, but kept in check.
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@Chocobo
'Angry mobs' is not a way to handle a problem. It is the result of a problem. In this case racism.
It doesnt matter how many people were offended, who they complained to or when they did it. As a customer you have every right to complain to whoever you see fit and whenever. Its not the customers job to know the chain of command within a certain structure, or a timeframe for how long they must wait. You complain when the event occours, to whoever you want. There is no right or wrong.
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On May 10 2012 01:15 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:04 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. The punishment was not decided on TL, it was decided by Razer and quantic. If you dislike the punishment, send letters to quantic and Razer. I'm sorry, allow me to correct the analogy. I spit on your car, you ask your friend to kindly beat me with a crowbar please.
you know that analogy fails, and you explained why
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On May 10 2012 01:41 shmee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now? The issue here is not whether or not race is the real issue. The issue is that people are FORCING racism into the discussion. In each of the instances, what was said was the same as any generic insult because the player in question was raging, with ONE notable difference: the use of a racial slur. Which of these two is more offensive: "FUCK YOU YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE AND YOUR DAD TAKES IT UP THE ASS AND YOU LOVE TO EAT SHIT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE..." etc etc etc for five lines -OR- "fuck off gook" Both are bad, yep. Both are immature and offensive, yep. But is there ANYONE here who can honestly say that they've never gotten pissed off and insulted their opponent? The problem I have is that of my two examples, one's pretty blatantly more offensive AND it's more offensive to a much larger group of people (everyone), whereas the second is offensive to a small group of people and only three words, yet it's seen as some absolutely never-okay horrible terrible thing that no decent human being would ever do. The real issue is that someone got upset, they overreacted, and their overreaction had far harsher consequences than were needed. Not only is this the case for the players who say something stupid, but on the people who get offended and instantly call the fucking sponsors demanding the player's head on a platter.
This is just your blatant ignorance as a white male. Racism slurs are significantly more offensive than "you fuck", your mom/dad insults, and "eating garbage". Destiny got exactly what he deserved, and I hope he loses all respect from any sponsors. There is no "witch-hunt". There is only extremely inappropriate behavior for an adult of this community and punishment.
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On May 10 2012 01:19 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:04 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them? what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world. wha... what? How exactly is it "spin" to describe the facts of what actually happened (the forming of an angry mob who made less than perfect choices)? Those are the actual facts with no distortion involved whatsoever.
I dont have much time and really you should be able to figure this out on your own but I'll give it a shot
In your analogy, you refer Destiny as a innocent black person who was matyr by the mob
in my analogy, i described it exactly as it is, destiny was in the wrong first hand. He didnt spit on me, he used racial slurs.
people were going to be angry. They assumed Quantic wouldnt do anything since they already signed him knowing his constant and casual use of racial slurs. Hence they went to the sponsor which is pretty common practice in real world.
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On May 10 2012 01:47 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:41 shmee wrote:On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now? The issue here is not whether or not race is the real issue. The issue is that people are FORCING racism into the discussion. In each of the instances, what was said was the same as any generic insult because the player in question was raging, with ONE notable difference: the use of a racial slur. Which of these two is more offensive: "FUCK YOU YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE AND YOUR DAD TAKES IT UP THE ASS AND YOU LOVE TO EAT SHIT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE..." etc etc etc for five lines -OR- "fuck off gook" Both are bad, yep. Both are immature and offensive, yep. But is there ANYONE here who can honestly say that they've never gotten pissed off and insulted their opponent? The problem I have is that of my two examples, one's pretty blatantly more offensive AND it's more offensive to a much larger group of people (everyone), whereas the second is offensive to a small group of people and only three words, yet it's seen as some absolutely never-okay horrible terrible thing that no decent human being would ever do. The real issue is that someone got upset, they overreacted, and their overreaction had far harsher consequences than were needed. Not only is this the case for the players who say something stupid, but on the people who get offended and instantly call the fucking sponsors demanding the player's head on a platter. This is just your blatant ignorance as a white male. Racism slurs are significantly more offensive than "you fuck", your mom/dad insults, and "eating garbage". Destiny got exactly what he deserved, and I hope he loses all respect from any sponsors. There is no "witch-hunt". There is only extremely inappropriate behavior for an adult of this community and punishment.
Except in the various threads about this are people of the the race this is an insult to, that laughed at it and were not offended. So your blanket statement that it's more offensive is just wrong.
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On May 10 2012 01:51 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:47 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 10 2012 01:41 shmee wrote:On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now? The issue here is not whether or not race is the real issue. The issue is that people are FORCING racism into the discussion. In each of the instances, what was said was the same as any generic insult because the player in question was raging, with ONE notable difference: the use of a racial slur. Which of these two is more offensive: "FUCK YOU YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE AND YOUR DAD TAKES IT UP THE ASS AND YOU LOVE TO EAT SHIT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE..." etc etc etc for five lines -OR- "fuck off gook" Both are bad, yep. Both are immature and offensive, yep. But is there ANYONE here who can honestly say that they've never gotten pissed off and insulted their opponent? The problem I have is that of my two examples, one's pretty blatantly more offensive AND it's more offensive to a much larger group of people (everyone), whereas the second is offensive to a small group of people and only three words, yet it's seen as some absolutely never-okay horrible terrible thing that no decent human being would ever do. The real issue is that someone got upset, they overreacted, and their overreaction had far harsher consequences than were needed. Not only is this the case for the players who say something stupid, but on the people who get offended and instantly call the fucking sponsors demanding the player's head on a platter. This is just your blatant ignorance as a white male. Racism slurs are significantly more offensive than "you fuck", your mom/dad insults, and "eating garbage". Destiny got exactly what he deserved, and I hope he loses all respect from any sponsors. There is no "witch-hunt". There is only extremely inappropriate behavior for an adult of this community and punishment. Except in the various threads about this are people of the the race this is an insult to, that laughed at it and were not offended. So your blanket statement that it's more offensive is just wrong.
I'm a minority and I can attest most minority will find this offensive.
please go find a random minority asian and start calling them gooks or black person Ngr see if they find it offensive. I bet you won't
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On May 10 2012 00:47 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:51 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:41 Timmsh wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. Some even believe that the anti-bigotry mail was a minority opinion--it should be easy to gather up the majority and have them send letters to Razer. The reason this isn't done is because Destiny supporters don't actually want to try to affect policy, they just want to whine on TL. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. I was actually thinking about all the Destiny supporters who are upset at letter writers for a decision that Quantic and Razer made. People should be free to write whatever they want to whomever they want. Actively manipulating the judgement of Razer by collecting a small mob and sending mails is wrong, because it does not give Razer the opportunity to see the problem in the right context. It's not for nothing people had to gather a small mob for this to have any effect. If one person would have wrote a mail, nothing would have happened (thus your statement, that Razer just follows policy is not correct) Razer is pushed by the mob to act on the spot, without the correct context and this is wrong because the mob knew this could (/would) happen and thus manipulating the judgement of razer by sending mails as a mob. A crowd did not have to be gathered together. Enough people were already against racist behavior and hence decided to take action. When given the most effective and expedient way to resolve the issue, they moved. The initial thread was 130+ pages long, do you really believe it was a small number of people that disliked Destiny's racist past. You have such a misinformed/biased/deluded view that it's no wonder you keep arriving at the wrong conclusions. You talk as if all of these people were watching Destiny's stream, saw the racist speech take place, all were deeply offended and each of them chose individually to voice their displeasure. That would be WRONG. There was exactly one person who was offended enough to not let things go- and it was the only person who had any reason to be offended. It was Warden, the target of the racist statement. And how did he decide to handle the situation? Not by talking to Destiny... not by emailing Quantic... no, instead he made a very public "fuck this guy Destiny, and here's why you should hate him too" post. I'm sure Warden just wanted to lower the public opinion of Destiny, but that isn't what happened. Instead the crowd of people in the thread continually escalated the intensity of the discussion, going all the way from "Destiny is a dick, I don't think his speech is appropriate" to "FUCK THAT RACIST PRICK! let's get him! what can we do to get back at him?!" An angry mob was formed, and as soon as someone mentioned that one way to hurt him would be to mass complain to Razer, everyone immediately did it. I'm sorry, but you are absolutely insane if you think this is the best way to handle things. Angry mobs are not the way to handle problems. I can't believe I actually need to say that... I can only hope your were simply misinformed about the nature of the situation. You also seem to ignore the fact that the mob complained to the wrong place. There is no doubt that the most appropriate place to send complaint emails would have been Quantic. They were Destiny's employer, after all. Emailing Razer was out of line, and just plain stupid. Out of line because they were only chosen by the mob because Razer holds financial power, and is more likely to demand the immediate firing of Destiny, whereas Quantic might have given him another opportunity to fix the situation. Stupid because starting a trend of mass-complaining to sponsors whenever something is unpopular could drive sponsors away from SC2. Stop ignoring the fact that these were the actions of an angry mob (who were not personally offended, but were encouraged to be angry by others), and that they took the wrong course of action. And don't go back to "but it's just free speech, it's not illegal for them to email Razer if they want to", because that's beside the point and not one single person disagrees with that.
I disagree that contacting Razer was wrong. I for one think that the problem is with Quantic and not with Destiny. Quantic, in my opinion, was fully aware of who Destiny was and the potential damage he could do to his team and Razer's image. They decided to sign him anyways. To many of the complainers I am sure they felt like Quantic was ignoring the problem. Destiny has been acting like this since he jumped into the scene and in his time with Quantic, who is supposed to be coaching him not only as a player but a person, seems to have made very little stride in his behavior.
Contacting Razer will only help the growth of esports. Razer is invested in esports as much as we are. The more that esports is mainstream the more mice they sell. As esports grows, Razer needs to be fully aware of their image so that they do not turn away any potential sales. The removal of Destiny will only help that cause. It was better to do this now instead of sweeping it under a rug for a couple years when there will be a lot more people watching.
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On May 10 2012 01:41 shmee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now? The issue here is not whether or not race is the real issue. The issue is that people are FORCING racism into the discussion. In each of the instances, what was said was the same as any generic insult because the player in question was raging, with ONE notable difference: the use of a racial slur. Which of these two is more offensive: "FUCK YOU YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE AND YOUR DAD TAKES IT UP THE ASS AND YOU LOVE TO EAT SHIT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE..." etc etc etc for five lines -OR- "fuck off gook" Both are bad, yep. Both are immature and offensive, yep. But is there ANYONE here who can honestly say that they've never gotten pissed off and insulted their opponent? The problem I have is that of my two examples, one's pretty blatantly more offensive AND it's more offensive to a much larger group of people (everyone), whereas the second is offensive to a small group of people and only three words, yet it's seen as some absolutely never-okay horrible terrible thing that no decent human being would ever do. The real issue is that someone got upset, they overreacted, and their overreaction had far harsher consequences than were needed. Not only is this the case for the players who say something stupid, but on the people who get offended and instantly call the fucking sponsors demanding the player's head on a platter. What needs to be done is for teams to have explicit rules for punishments (fines, suspensions, etc) for these types of offenses. This way when someone uses a special word that's on some blacklist, and some idiots go to the sponsors crying hate-mongering, the team can discipline the player by pre-set rules and the sponsor can point to that if they need to. That way overreactions can be punished, but kept in check.
I agree with your comments that teams should have a code of conduct agreed with the players. I would be surprised if this was not actually the case.
As to your points with racism being differentiated from other bad language, well that is how modern society operates. You can call someone a piece of garbage publicly and this will not engender a sh1tstorm, but if you call someone a racial slur then a sh1tstorm does occur. Arguing that that should not be the case is all very well on ideological or philosophical grounds but ignores how the current world operates. Experience of the corporate world will teach anyone the realities of required conduct.
Racism is a hot topic in US society, Quantic is an American company, as is Razer and Destiny is American. There is no excuse for ignorance about modern American attitudes regarding racist incidents and the negative PR that can come from being seen to condone racism.
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On May 10 2012 01:51 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:47 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 10 2012 01:41 shmee wrote:On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now? The issue here is not whether or not race is the real issue. The issue is that people are FORCING racism into the discussion. In each of the instances, what was said was the same as any generic insult because the player in question was raging, with ONE notable difference: the use of a racial slur. Which of these two is more offensive: "FUCK YOU YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE AND YOUR DAD TAKES IT UP THE ASS AND YOU LOVE TO EAT SHIT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE..." etc etc etc for five lines -OR- "fuck off gook" Both are bad, yep. Both are immature and offensive, yep. But is there ANYONE here who can honestly say that they've never gotten pissed off and insulted their opponent? The problem I have is that of my two examples, one's pretty blatantly more offensive AND it's more offensive to a much larger group of people (everyone), whereas the second is offensive to a small group of people and only three words, yet it's seen as some absolutely never-okay horrible terrible thing that no decent human being would ever do. The real issue is that someone got upset, they overreacted, and their overreaction had far harsher consequences than were needed. Not only is this the case for the players who say something stupid, but on the people who get offended and instantly call the fucking sponsors demanding the player's head on a platter. This is just your blatant ignorance as a white male. Racism slurs are significantly more offensive than "you fuck", your mom/dad insults, and "eating garbage". Destiny got exactly what he deserved, and I hope he loses all respect from any sponsors. There is no "witch-hunt". There is only extremely inappropriate behavior for an adult of this community and punishment. Except in the various threads about this are people of the the race this is an insult to, that laughed at it and were not offended. So your blanket statement that it's more offensive is just wrong.
False. An independent cherry-picked example by you doesn't dictate how an entire population of people responds. If you're trying to argue that racial slurs aren't offensive then you're going to need to try harder.
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On May 10 2012 01:49 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:19 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:04 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them? what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world. wha... what? How exactly is it "spin" to describe the facts of what actually happened (the forming of an angry mob who made less than perfect choices)? Those are the actual facts with no distortion involved whatsoever. I dont have much time and really you should be able to figure this out on your own but I'll give it a shot In your analogy, you refer Destiny as a innocent black person who was matyr by the mob in my analogy, i described it exactly as it is, destiny was in the wrong first hand. He didnt spit on me, he used racial slurs. people were going to be angry. They assumed Quantic wouldnt do anything since they already signed him knowing his constant and casual use of racial slurs. Hence they went to the sponsor which is pretty common practice in real world.
If you're talking about your terrible analogy from the last page, about the white guy killing a black man and then killing himself in fear of retribution. That is a worse analogy than Chocobo's.
First, Destiny didn't leave Quantic because he feared retribution. He left so that the other members of Quantic would not be harmed, so that's a huge strike against your analogy. And second, Destiny didn't not remove Warden's sponsership or income stream and then in fear also left his own sponsership and a small income stream. So you analogy now fails doubly.
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I'd just like to point out that according to the time stamps in the other thread, it was exactly 16 minutes after the post came up that someone (on the third page) called for the community to contact sponsors.
While it may take "2 minutes" to make a post that you're looking into it, not everyone is trolling TL constantly to find out about this type of situation.
16 minutes, people. How is that adequate?
I'm sorry there are still some of you arguing pro/con racism, I really wish you would see that those of us who are against how the community handled these situations are not for racism, but moderation and time before going to the final possible option.
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On May 10 2012 01:54 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:49 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 01:19 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:04 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them? what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world. wha... what? How exactly is it "spin" to describe the facts of what actually happened (the forming of an angry mob who made less than perfect choices)? Those are the actual facts with no distortion involved whatsoever. I dont have much time and really you should be able to figure this out on your own but I'll give it a shot In your analogy, you refer Destiny as a innocent black person who was matyr by the mob in my analogy, i described it exactly as it is, destiny was in the wrong first hand. He didnt spit on me, he used racial slurs. people were going to be angry. They assumed Quantic wouldnt do anything since they already signed him knowing his constant and casual use of racial slurs. Hence they went to the sponsor which is pretty common practice in real world. If you're talking about your terrible analogy from the last page, about the white guy killing a black man and then killing himself in fear of retribution. That is a worse analogy than Chocobo's. First, Destiny didn't leave Quantic because he feared retribution. He left so that the other members of Quantic would not be harmed, so that's a huge strike against your analogy. And second, Destiny didn't not remove Warden's sponsership or income stream and then in fear also left his own sponsership and a small income stream. So you analogy now fails doubly.
sure it's not a picture perfect
but if you read my response you find mine fits way better than chocobo's. and I was specifically talking about that.
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