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On May 10 2012 01:41 shmee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now? What needs to be done is for teams to have explicit rules for punishments (fines, suspensions, etc) for these types of offenses. This way when someone uses a special word that's on some blacklist, and some idiots go to the sponsors crying hate-mongering, the team can discipline the player by pre-set rules and the sponsor can point to that if they need to. That way overreactions can be punished, but kept in check.
Sure, this makes sense, but if the team goes for any policy other than 'Zero Tolerance', it's possibly worse for the reputation of the team than having no policy at all - at least from a cynical perspective. At least with no policy they can claim simple negligence. With a bad policy where they hand out nothing more than a slap to the wrist they can be seen as implicitly condoning the bad behavior of their players.
Teams absolutely should have a public personality code of ethics in place, but they basically need to be zero tolerance for things like racist outbursts.
(Zero Tolerance with a review, people need to be able to make judgement calls)
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On May 10 2012 01:49 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:19 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:04 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them? what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world. wha... what? How exactly is it "spin" to describe the facts of what actually happened (the forming of an angry mob who made less than perfect choices)? Those are the actual facts with no distortion involved whatsoever. I dont have much time and really you should be able to figure this out on your own but I'll give it a shot In your analogy, you refer Destiny as a innocent black person who was matyr by the mob in my analogy, i described it exactly as it is, destiny was in the wrong first hand. He didnt spit on me, he used racial slurs. people were going to be angry. They assumed Quantic wouldnt do anything since they already signed him knowing his constant and casual use of racial slurs. Hence they went to the sponsor which is pretty common practice in real world.
In other words, you are incapable of understanding analogies.
Actually, that is the best possible reason to get me to stop using them. The purpose of an analogy is to help people understand things. If it's instead making you think I see Destiny as a black person being attacked by racists, then it isn't helping.
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On May 10 2012 01:23 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. . I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism. Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist?
This entire thread has been slowly shifting to supporting discrimination, specifically racism due to the fact that many are arguing that it is bad. These arguments are old and haven't changed for a LONG time. So instead of continuing to make arguments based on the stance of the "majority" (read: greater good) of the community, we should just accept that it exists and regulate it so that appropriate audiences can choose to watch it if they desire to.
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On May 10 2012 01:52 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:51 hinnolinn wrote:On May 10 2012 01:47 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 10 2012 01:41 shmee wrote:On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now? The issue here is not whether or not race is the real issue. The issue is that people are FORCING racism into the discussion. In each of the instances, what was said was the same as any generic insult because the player in question was raging, with ONE notable difference: the use of a racial slur. Which of these two is more offensive: "FUCK YOU YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE AND YOUR DAD TAKES IT UP THE ASS AND YOU LOVE TO EAT SHIT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE..." etc etc etc for five lines -OR- "fuck off gook" Both are bad, yep. Both are immature and offensive, yep. But is there ANYONE here who can honestly say that they've never gotten pissed off and insulted their opponent? The problem I have is that of my two examples, one's pretty blatantly more offensive AND it's more offensive to a much larger group of people (everyone), whereas the second is offensive to a small group of people and only three words, yet it's seen as some absolutely never-okay horrible terrible thing that no decent human being would ever do. The real issue is that someone got upset, they overreacted, and their overreaction had far harsher consequences than were needed. Not only is this the case for the players who say something stupid, but on the people who get offended and instantly call the fucking sponsors demanding the player's head on a platter. This is just your blatant ignorance as a white male. Racism slurs are significantly more offensive than "you fuck", your mom/dad insults, and "eating garbage". Destiny got exactly what he deserved, and I hope he loses all respect from any sponsors. There is no "witch-hunt". There is only extremely inappropriate behavior for an adult of this community and punishment. Except in the various threads about this are people of the the race this is an insult to, that laughed at it and were not offended. So your blanket statement that it's more offensive is just wrong. I'm a minority and I can attest most minority will find this offensive. please go find a random minority asian and start calling them gooks or black person Ngr see if they find it offensive. I bet you won't
Exactly this. I've been called a gook before in real life. It feels absolutely terrible. Don't need to see this from a top community member.
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On May 10 2012 01:58 Noobity wrote:
I'd just like to point out that according to the time stamps in the other thread, it was exactly 16 minutes after the post came up that someone (on the third page) called for the community to contact sponsors.
While it may take "2 minutes" to make a post that you're looking into it, not everyone is trolling TL constantly to find out about this type of situation.
16 minutes, people. How is that adequate?
I'm sorry there are still some of you arguing pro/con racism, I really wish you would see that those of us who are against how the community handled these situations are not for racism, but moderation and time before going to the final possible option.
I have no problem with discussions about how quickly things should have been escalated to the sponsors. My gripe is with those posters who have argued that incidents of racism should either be ignored or condoned, or that racial abuse did not actually occur. People are still claiming that racial insults are not offensive and using sophistry to argue that they should be allowed because they are just words.
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On May 10 2012 02:00 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:49 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 01:19 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:04 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them? what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world. wha... what? How exactly is it "spin" to describe the facts of what actually happened (the forming of an angry mob who made less than perfect choices)? Those are the actual facts with no distortion involved whatsoever. I dont have much time and really you should be able to figure this out on your own but I'll give it a shot In your analogy, you refer Destiny as a innocent black person who was matyr by the mob in my analogy, i described it exactly as it is, destiny was in the wrong first hand. He didnt spit on me, he used racial slurs. people were going to be angry. They assumed Quantic wouldnt do anything since they already signed him knowing his constant and casual use of racial slurs. Hence they went to the sponsor which is pretty common practice in real world. In other words, you are incapable of understanding analogies. Actually, that is the best possible reason to get me to stop using them. The purpose of an analogy is to help people understand things. If it's instead making you think I see Destiny as a black person being attacked by racists, then it isn't helping.
lol we are discussing semantic now?
you painted Destiny as innocent victim. That alone is a failed analogy. I dont know what you are trying to argue here. You were wrong. It's pretty much black and white.
if you want to keep babbing about YOUR definition of analogy. go ahead. Then I would know I am truly wasting time with you.
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How offensive a racial slur is does not define how racist it is. It's a racial slur because it belittles someone's race a being inferior--how offended people get holds no bearing on it.
If I felt someone was undeserving of something and so I call them Asian--that is racist no matter how many or few people. Insult.
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On May 10 2012 01:41 shmee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:31 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism. Actually I can read fine. I know that you said you loved Destiny after it came out that he had racially abused somebody. So you supported his actions in racially abusing somebody. You then proceeded to attempt to smear those who opposed racism as being bigots. You also stated that no-one should be complaining about Destiny at all. You then attempted to argue that Destiny was not actually racially abusing someone. You then stated that racial abuse from Destiny is akin to cartoonish insults and not to be taken seriously. You then proceeded to make various irrelevent analogies in an attempt to obsfucate the issue. You also continued to label those who diagreed with you as immature or having a mob mentality or engaging in a witch-hunt. This was done in order to attempt to discredit their views. You then complained about other members of the community attempting to impose their will over others, and then in the next breath you attempted to control other people by dictating what they should or should not do. So how is my reading comprehension now? The issue here is not whether or not race is the real issue. The issue is that people are FORCING racism into the discussion. In each of the instances, what was said was the same as any generic insult because the player in question was raging, with ONE notable difference: the use of a racial slur. Which of these two is more offensive: "FUCK YOU YOUR MOTHER IS A WHORE AND YOUR DAD TAKES IT UP THE ASS AND YOU LOVE TO EAT SHIT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE..." etc etc etc for five lines -OR- "fuck off gook" Both are bad, yep. Both are immature and offensive, yep. But is there ANYONE here who can honestly say that they've never gotten pissed off and insulted their opponent? The problem I have is that of my two examples, one's pretty blatantly more offensive AND it's more offensive to a much larger group of people (everyone), whereas the second is offensive to a small group of people and only three words, yet it's seen as some absolutely never-okay horrible terrible thing that no decent human being would ever do. The real issue is that someone got upset, they overreacted, and their overreaction had far harsher consequences than were needed. Not only is this the case for the players who say something stupid, but on the people who get offended and instantly call the fucking sponsors demanding the player's head on a platter. What needs to be done is for teams to have explicit rules for punishments (fines, suspensions, etc) for these types of offenses. This way when someone uses a special word that's on some blacklist, and some idiots go to the sponsors crying hate-mongering, the team can discipline the player by pre-set rules and the sponsor can point to that if they need to. That way overreactions can be punished, but kept in check.
this is one of the most privileged things i've ever read.
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On May 10 2012 02:00 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:23 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. . I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism. Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist? This entire thread has been slowly shifting to supporting discrimination, specifically racism due to the fact that many are arguing that it is bad. These arguments are old and haven't changed for a LONG time. So instead of continuing to make arguments based on the stance of the "majority" (read: greater good) of the community, we should just accept that it exists and regulate it so that appropriate audiences can choose to watch it if they desire to.
Shit like this is what I actually do find offensive. "The side I am defending originated from an anti-racism viewpoint, therefore everyone who opposes me is a racist!"
Fuck. That.
I challenge you to find a single damn person in any of these threads who is pro-racism. No one is saying racism is good. That's not what any of these discussions are about. I can't understand why people can't comprehend that, or even how this thought got into their heads in the first place.
The entire discussion is about how it is appropriate to react when you encounter a racial slur - do you ignore it, do you complain about it, do you fire the guy, do you shoot him in the head. Somewhere along the spectrum of possible responses is the best all-around choice for the situation.
I am of the opinion that the response should be less intense than "angry mob". Apparently others disagree. But not a single person here is supporting racism, and blindly accusing others of racism is as bad as using racial slurs yourself.
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On May 10 2012 02:03 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:00 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:49 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 01:19 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 01:04 Govou wrote:On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them? what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world. wha... what? How exactly is it "spin" to describe the facts of what actually happened (the forming of an angry mob who made less than perfect choices)? Those are the actual facts with no distortion involved whatsoever. I dont have much time and really you should be able to figure this out on your own but I'll give it a shot In your analogy, you refer Destiny as a innocent black person who was matyr by the mob in my analogy, i described it exactly as it is, destiny was in the wrong first hand. He didnt spit on me, he used racial slurs. people were going to be angry. They assumed Quantic wouldnt do anything since they already signed him knowing his constant and casual use of racial slurs. Hence they went to the sponsor which is pretty common practice in real world. In other words, you are incapable of understanding analogies. Actually, that is the best possible reason to get me to stop using them. The purpose of an analogy is to help people understand things. If it's instead making you think I see Destiny as a black person being attacked by racists, then it isn't helping. lol we are discussing semantic now? you painted Destiny as innocent victim. That alone is a failed analogy. I dont know what you are trying to argue here. You were wrong. It's pretty much black and white.
You said that I referred to Destiny as an innocent black person. That is not a matter of semantics... it's complete breakdown in the lines of communication. I'll make you a deal, I'll stop using analogies if you stop attempting to understand them.
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On May 10 2012 02:17 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:00 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 01:23 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. . I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism. Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist? This entire thread has been slowly shifting to supporting discrimination, specifically racism due to the fact that many are arguing that it is bad. These arguments are old and haven't changed for a LONG time. So instead of continuing to make arguments based on the stance of the "majority" (read: greater good) of the community, we should just accept that it exists and regulate it so that appropriate audiences can choose to watch it if they desire to. Shit like this is what I actually do find offensive. "The side I am defending originated from an anti-racism viewpoint, therefore everyone who opposes me is a racist!" Fuck. That. I challenge you to find a single damn person in any of these threads who is pro-racism. No one is saying racism is good. That's not what any of these discussions are about. I can't understand why people can't comprehend that, or even how this thought got into their heads in the first place. The entire discussion is about how it is appropriate to react when you encounter a racial slur - do you ignore it, do you complain about it, do you fire the guy, do you shoot him in the head. Somewhere along the spectrum of possible responses is the best all-around choice for the situation. I am of the opinion that the response should be less intense than "angry mob". Apparently others disagree. But not a single person here is supporting racism, and blindly accusing others of racism is as bad as using racial slurs yourself.
Do you believe its inappropriate to fire an employee/representative for using racial slurs in public during 'work'?
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Mob mentality prevails once again. Whether or not Destiny should have been "forced" to resign is irrelevant to the discussion; the discussion is that the way the Starcraft 2 community reacts is no better than the parents who complain to the schoolboard directly about certain teacher who may have done something "unsavory" years ago (such as maybe college pictures of the teacher partying, etc.) rather than either going to the Principal first. It forces the hand of the be all and end all power to make a decision, and usually it ends up with the dismissal of said teacher.
Destiny's actions are more recent, but what happened to Orb (his actions were months before he joined EG) is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. The minority community that is complaining to sponsors directly is no better than said parents that I just mentioned above. Instead of solving the problem through the proper channels, you're simply out to get somebody. Everyone that was involved in e-mailing Razer likely knew that by emailing Razer, they could have easily gotten Destiny sacked since that is exactly what happened to Orb and EG. They KNEW what they were doing. Period. There was no "I was offended by Destiny's actions". These people were out with malicious intent of just getting Destiny removed because they have an agenda against him, period. If they wanted to deal with the issue, they would have done it in the proper manner.
The issue that most people have with the continual amount of complaining towards sponsors is that you're hurting E-Sports. Yes, you solved a "small" issue in that you basically removed a "racist" and "immature" player from a sponsored team. Great. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games. Sponsors don't want to deal with a fickle community, and the SC2 community is certainly not doing itself any favors by pretty much demonstrating to the world the worst of the worst. Sponsors will begin to think "why the heck are we sponsoring racist/immature/etc. players with such a crazy community?" and move onto other games.
On May 10 2012 02:26 Raavi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:17 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 02:00 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 01:23 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. . I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism. Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist? This entire thread has been slowly shifting to supporting discrimination, specifically racism due to the fact that many are arguing that it is bad. These arguments are old and haven't changed for a LONG time. So instead of continuing to make arguments based on the stance of the "majority" (read: greater good) of the community, we should just accept that it exists and regulate it so that appropriate audiences can choose to watch it if they desire to. Shit like this is what I actually do find offensive. "The side I am defending originated from an anti-racism viewpoint, therefore everyone who opposes me is a racist!" Fuck. That. I challenge you to find a single damn person in any of these threads who is pro-racism. No one is saying racism is good. That's not what any of these discussions are about. I can't understand why people can't comprehend that, or even how this thought got into their heads in the first place. The entire discussion is about how it is appropriate to react when you encounter a racial slur - do you ignore it, do you complain about it, do you fire the guy, do you shoot him in the head. Somewhere along the spectrum of possible responses is the best all-around choice for the situation. I am of the opinion that the response should be less intense than "angry mob". Apparently others disagree. But not a single person here is supporting racism, and blindly accusing others of racism is as bad as using racial slurs yourself. Do you believe its inappropriate to fire an employee/representative for using racial slurs in public during 'work'?
Do you report it to the boss of said employee or go to the CEO of the company? Come on.
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On May 10 2012 02:26 Raavi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:17 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 02:00 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 01:23 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. . I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism. Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist? This entire thread has been slowly shifting to supporting discrimination, specifically racism due to the fact that many are arguing that it is bad. These arguments are old and haven't changed for a LONG time. So instead of continuing to make arguments based on the stance of the "majority" (read: greater good) of the community, we should just accept that it exists and regulate it so that appropriate audiences can choose to watch it if they desire to. Shit like this is what I actually do find offensive. "The side I am defending originated from an anti-racism viewpoint, therefore everyone who opposes me is a racist!" Fuck. That. I challenge you to find a single damn person in any of these threads who is pro-racism. No one is saying racism is good. That's not what any of these discussions are about. I can't understand why people can't comprehend that, or even how this thought got into their heads in the first place. The entire discussion is about how it is appropriate to react when you encounter a racial slur - do you ignore it, do you complain about it, do you fire the guy, do you shoot him in the head. Somewhere along the spectrum of possible responses is the best all-around choice for the situation. I am of the opinion that the response should be less intense than "angry mob". Apparently others disagree. But not a single person here is supporting racism, and blindly accusing others of racism is as bad as using racial slurs yourself. Do you believe its inappropriate to fire an employee/representative for using racial slurs in public during 'work'?
Absolutely not. From the beginning I have completely supported the actions of Quantic and Razer. What I am against is rule by angry mob.
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On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors.
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On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors.
My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there).
If this continues to persists, sponsors will be pull out because they are gonna feel like the Starcraft 2 is way too unstable in terms of maturity, etc. Remember, Starcraft 2 is no longer the biggest kid on the block anymore in terms of E-Sports. You have other games that are directly competing for sponsors' attention. If the Starcraft 2 community doesn't shape up its act and deal with issues like this in a proper manner (not with pitchforks and torches from the get go), then alot of the support is gonna dry up real quick.
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Are these sponsors really like children that can't handle being told the truth? and do they really have no idea what's going on with the people who are spending their invested money?
Maybe they can spare having their intern spend 5 minutes researching the issue and realize that this is a guy with a history of this kind of behaviour and wacko belief that he's not in the wrong? It would seem to me that the issue with destiny especially doesn't really generalize out to the community as a whole.
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On May 10 2012 02:31 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:26 Raavi wrote:On May 10 2012 02:17 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 02:00 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 01:23 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. . I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism. Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist? This entire thread has been slowly shifting to supporting discrimination, specifically racism due to the fact that many are arguing that it is bad. These arguments are old and haven't changed for a LONG time. So instead of continuing to make arguments based on the stance of the "majority" (read: greater good) of the community, we should just accept that it exists and regulate it so that appropriate audiences can choose to watch it if they desire to. Shit like this is what I actually do find offensive. "The side I am defending originated from an anti-racism viewpoint, therefore everyone who opposes me is a racist!" Fuck. That. I challenge you to find a single damn person in any of these threads who is pro-racism. No one is saying racism is good. That's not what any of these discussions are about. I can't understand why people can't comprehend that, or even how this thought got into their heads in the first place. The entire discussion is about how it is appropriate to react when you encounter a racial slur - do you ignore it, do you complain about it, do you fire the guy, do you shoot him in the head. Somewhere along the spectrum of possible responses is the best all-around choice for the situation. I am of the opinion that the response should be less intense than "angry mob". Apparently others disagree. But not a single person here is supporting racism, and blindly accusing others of racism is as bad as using racial slurs yourself. Do you believe its inappropriate to fire an employee/representative for using racial slurs in public during 'work'? Absolutely not. From the beginning I have completely supported the actions of Quantic and Razer. What I am against is rule by angry mob.
But there is no rule by angry mob. An angry mob was not formed to get him fired, it was the result of a serious problem (racism) that wasnt dealt with by Quantic (knowing destiny and his language, they are responsible for making that not happen again.) They failed and thus people went to sponsors.
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On May 10 2012 02:35 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors. My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there).
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing to sponsors and commending them for sponsoring various teams/players/tournaments etc. Don't complain that the sponsors are not getting positive feedback if you are failing to provide that positive feedback. If you have concerns they are not receiving enough positive feedback, then give them some.
The sponsors don't like racism, so if the community did not tolerate it and condone racist comments (like some posters in this thread and related thread have been doing), then the sponsors would not have to deal with the issue at all. It is quite simple, no racist comments, no chance of complaints about racist comments being made to sponsors, no sponsors having issues to deal with.
Perhaps you should redirect your ire towards those who make racist comments and thus potentially force sponsors to walk away from the scene. Sounds quite simple.
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On May 10 2012 02:17 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:00 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 01:23 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. . I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism. Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist? This entire thread has been slowly shifting to supporting discrimination, specifically racism due to the fact that many are arguing that it is bad. These arguments are old and haven't changed for a LONG time. So instead of continuing to make arguments based on the stance of the "majority" (read: greater good) of the community, we should just accept that it exists and regulate it so that appropriate audiences can choose to watch it if they desire to. Shit like this is what I actually do find offensive. "The side I am defending originated from an anti-racism viewpoint, therefore everyone who opposes me is a racist!" Fuck. That. I challenge you to find a single damn person in any of these threads who is pro-racism. No one is saying racism is good. That's not what any of these discussions are about. I can't understand why people can't comprehend that, or even how this thought got into their heads in the first place. The entire discussion is about how it is appropriate to react when you encounter a racial slur - do you ignore it, do you complain about it, do you fire the guy, do you shoot him in the head. Somewhere along the spectrum of possible responses is the best all-around choice for the situation. I am of the opinion that the response should be less intense than "angry mob". Apparently others disagree. But not a single person here is supporting racism, and blindly accusing others of racism is as bad as using racial slurs yourself.
Getting offended over something you don't understand? Here, let me try again.
I am not pro or against racism. I firmly believe discrimination is always going to be in our lives, that there are bigger things to worry about, and that by choosing to argue over the finer points of racism makes you a supporter of it. What makes discrimination unlike most things is that if you IGNORE it. It WILL go away.
I challenge YOU to find a person that has accepted that racism is in our lives, and HAS NOT opted to remove racism from SC2, from ESPORTS, from society. You won't, because it's not possible.
I cannot stress this enough, NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARGUE, AS LONG AS YOU ARE TOUCHING THE SUBJECT OF DISCRIMINATION, YOU WILL NEVER KILL RACISM. Myself included.
To the matter at hand, my previous posts suggest regulation. Please go back and read about them and comment them
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On May 10 2012 02:47 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:35 superstartran wrote:On May 10 2012 02:32 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 02:27 superstartran wrote:. But, if you repeatedly do this over and over again, sponsors are going to get up and leave and move to other games.
Actually sponsors are going to get up and leave if the players they sponsor or are associated with racially abuse people. No racial abuse, no problem, no sponsors having to take steps. It is really that simple. Maybe if racial abuse was not tolerated by the kkk demographic within the community then players would be discouraged from racially abusing others and causing embarrassment to sponsors. It is the racial abuse and those who condone it who are the ones most likely to scare off sponsors. My point is that the sponsors are only going to see that they are repeatedly sponsoring racists/immature players/etc. rather than seeing the good side of SC2 because the minority community that is most vocal is basically only holding a huge sign that says "HEY FUCKING SPONSORS REMOVE THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE OF SUCH AND SUCH" and that's pretty much all they are seeing in the recent months. You don't go to the sponsors directly ever unless it is absolutely necessary to strongarm someone (which it was NOT in this case of in Orb's case). Why? Because they are gonna get scared and pull out when they see that the community is so unstable (and really the past year and a half is demonstrating that the Starcraft 2 community is no better than any other community out there). There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing to sponsors and commending them for sponsoring various teams/players/tournaments etc. Don't complain that the sponsors are not getting positive feedback if you are failing to provide that positive feedback. If you have concerns they are not receiving enough positive feedback, then give them some. The sponsors don't like racism, so if the community did not tolerate it and condone racist comments (like some posters in this thread and related thread have been doing), then the sponsors would not have to deal with the issue at all. It is quite simple, no racist comments, no chance of complaints about racist comments being made to sponsors, no sponsors having issues to deal with. Perhaps you should redirect your ire towards those who make racist comments and thus potentially force sponsors to walk away from the scene. Sounds quite simple.
So if there's any sort of problem that arises we should just rise up and ignore chain of command structures in teams and just go directly to the sponsors to immediately strong arm any team into doing our bidding? Because that's pretty much what you are implying.
Sounds like a great plan. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You think it's ok to do shit like this as long as the community doesn't agree with it, but that's not how the real world works at all. You have to go through proper channels in order to get the proper punishment. The proper punishment was not dealt out here at all, and neither was it in Orb's case.
BTW, I don't agree with racism and I certainly do not condone it. I never liked Destiny in the first place (always thought he was a completely overrated player), but it was pretty obvious from the get go that those that complained to the sponsors really had no issues with the racist remarks. They knew from past history (Orb incident with Reddit) that they could easily get someone sacked by just simply getting the sponsor's attention. If they wanted to resolve the issue, it could have been done by simply contacting the team manager and informing him of his player's misbehavior.
I mean really, fucking EG.Alex WENT ON RECORD asking the community to NOT directly go to the sponsors and to come to team managers first. That's all anyone is asking; deal with the issue in a mature, professional, and proper way. Going directly to sponsors in order to strong arm players/team managers (especially when it is NOT necessary) is absolutely immature, and the continuing of said action is only going to scare sponsors off.
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EPT
