|
On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group.
And in both cases it was due to team members spouting off racist remarks. It's like--companies and the community respond the same way to similar stimuli.
It's like, a precedent was made that is becoming more and more visible to the public sphere.
It's like--gasp--quantic should have seen this coming *because* it has happened before and will happen again until players stopped being racist.
|
On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group.
Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with.
It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one.
A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour.
|
On May 09 2012 18:51 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:41 Timmsh wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. Some even believe that the anti-bigotry mail was a minority opinion--it should be easy to gather up the majority and have them send letters to Razer. The reason this isn't done is because Destiny supporters don't actually want to try to affect policy, they just want to whine on TL. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. I was actually thinking about all the Destiny supporters who are upset at letter writers for a decision that Quantic and Razer made. People should be free to write whatever they want to whomever they want. Actively manipulating the judgement of Razer by collecting a small mob and sending mails is wrong, because it does not give Razer the opportunity to see the problem in the right context. It's not for nothing people had to gather a small mob for this to have any effect. If one person would have wrote a mail, nothing would have happened (thus your statement, that Razer just follows policy is not correct) Razer is pushed by the mob to act on the spot, without the correct context and this is wrong because the mob knew this could (/would) happen and thus manipulating the judgement of razer by sending mails as a mob. A crowd did not have to be gathered together. Enough people were already against racist behavior and hence decided to take action. When given the most effective and expedient way to resolve the issue, they moved. The initial thread was 130+ pages long, do you really believe it was a small number of people that disliked Destiny's racist past.
You have such a misinformed/biased/deluded view that it's no wonder you keep arriving at the wrong conclusions.
You talk as if all of these people were watching Destiny's stream, saw the racist speech take place, all were deeply offended and each of them chose individually to voice their displeasure.
That would be WRONG.
There was exactly one person who was offended enough to not let things go- and it was the only person who had any reason to be offended. It was Warden, the target of the racist statement.
And how did he decide to handle the situation? Not by talking to Destiny... not by emailing Quantic... no, instead he made a very public "fuck this guy Destiny, and here's why you should hate him too" post.
I'm sure Warden just wanted to lower the public opinion of Destiny, but that isn't what happened. Instead the crowd of people in the thread continually escalated the intensity of the discussion, going all the way from "Destiny is a dick, I don't think his speech is appropriate" to "FUCK THAT RACIST PRICK! let's get him! what can we do to get back at him?!"
An angry mob was formed, and as soon as someone mentioned that one way to hurt him would be to mass complain to Razer, everyone immediately did it.
I'm sorry, but you are absolutely insane if you think this is the best way to handle things. Angry mobs are not the way to handle problems. I can't believe I actually need to say that... I can only hope your were simply misinformed about the nature of the situation.
You also seem to ignore the fact that the mob complained to the wrong place. There is no doubt that the most appropriate place to send complaint emails would have been Quantic. They were Destiny's employer, after all.
Emailing Razer was out of line, and just plain stupid. Out of line because they were only chosen by the mob because Razer holds financial power, and is more likely to demand the immediate firing of Destiny, whereas Quantic might have given him another opportunity to fix the situation. Stupid because starting a trend of mass-complaining to sponsors whenever something is unpopular could drive sponsors away from SC2.
Stop ignoring the fact that these were the actions of an angry mob (who were not personally offended, but were encouraged to be angry by others), and that they took the wrong course of action. And don't go back to "but it's just free speech, it's not illegal for them to email Razer if they want to", because that's beside the point and not one single person disagrees with that.
|
On May 10 2012 00:47 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:51 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:41 Timmsh wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. Some even believe that the anti-bigotry mail was a minority opinion--it should be easy to gather up the majority and have them send letters to Razer. The reason this isn't done is because Destiny supporters don't actually want to try to affect policy, they just want to whine on TL. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. I was actually thinking about all the Destiny supporters who are upset at letter writers for a decision that Quantic and Razer made. People should be free to write whatever they want to whomever they want. Actively manipulating the judgement of Razer by collecting a small mob and sending mails is wrong, because it does not give Razer the opportunity to see the problem in the right context. It's not for nothing people had to gather a small mob for this to have any effect. If one person would have wrote a mail, nothing would have happened (thus your statement, that Razer just follows policy is not correct) Razer is pushed by the mob to act on the spot, without the correct context and this is wrong because the mob knew this could (/would) happen and thus manipulating the judgement of razer by sending mails as a mob. A crowd did not have to be gathered together. Enough people were already against racist behavior and hence decided to take action. When given the most effective and expedient way to resolve the issue, they moved. The initial thread was 130+ pages long, do you really believe it was a small number of people that disliked Destiny's racist past. You have such a misinformed/biased/deluded view that it's no wonder you keep arriving at the wrong conclusions. You talk as if all of these people were watching Destiny's stream, saw the racist speech take place, all were deeply offended and each of them chose individually to voice their displeasure. That would be WRONG. There was exactly one person who was offended enough to not let things go- and it was the only person who had any reason to be offended. It was Warden, the target of the racist statement. And how did he decide to handle the situation? Not by talking to Destiny... not by emailing Quantic... no, instead he made a very public "fuck this guy Destiny, and here's why you should hate him too" post. I'm sure Warden just wanted to lower the public opinion of Destiny, but that isn't what happened. Instead the crowd of people in the thread continually escalated the intensity of the discussion, going all the way from "Destiny is a dick, I don't think his speech is appropriate" to "FUCK THAT RACIST PRICK! let's get him! what can we do to get back at him?!" An angry mob was formed, and as soon as someone mentioned that one way to hurt him would be to mass complain to Razer, everyone immediately did it. I'm sorry, but you are absolutely insane if you think this is the best way to handle things. Angry mobs are not the way to handle problems. I can't believe I actually need to say that... I can only hope your were simply misinformed about the nature of the situation. You also seem to ignore the fact that the mob complained to the wrong place. There is no doubt that the most appropriate place to send complaint emails would have been Quantic. They were Destiny's employer, after all. Emailing Razer was out of line, and just plain stupid. Out of line because they were only chosen by the mob because Razer holds financial power, and is more likely to demand the immediate firing of Destiny, whereas Quantic might have given him another opportunity to fix the situation. Stupid because starting a trend of mass-complaining to sponsors whenever something is unpopular could drive sponsors away from SC2. Stop ignoring the fact that these were the actions of an angry mob (who were not personally offended, but were encouraged to be angry by others), and that they took the wrong course of action. And don't go back to "but it's just free speech, it's not illegal for them to email Razer if they want to", because that's beside the point and not one single person disagrees with that.
why do you think there was an angry mob? why do you think such mob didn't write to complexity's sponsors during Naniwa's case?
emailing sponsors over trivial matter is overreaction. And usually sponsors wont budge. However if it is not a trivial matter, like racial slurs, it's pretty much no brainer.
use your sense for christ sake.
|
On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about.
This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were.
Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger.
Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar.
|
On May 10 2012 00:29 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:23 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2012 19:04 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:55 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:
[quote]
It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response. Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything. They could have fined Destiny. They could have suspended him. They could have forced him to apologize. They could have made him do whatever as punishment. But they chose to fire him instead. You need to stop saying this. He left voluntarily. He was not fired. People have tried multiple times to tell you that he was NOT fired. Start listening to them. I have no idea if anything you're posting has a valid point, because your insistence on spouting something you've been told multiple times is factually incorrect is currently overriding everything else in my mind. If he wasn't fired--then there was no witch hunt.
You can't be serious. Clearly you are just a bored troll.
If a black person in Mississippi in 1870 hear that a lynch mob is coming to hang him and he chooses to leave town before they can catch him, that means there was no lynch mob?
|
On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar.
The punishment was not decided on TL, it was decided by Razer and quantic. If you dislike the punishment, send letters to quantic and Razer.
|
On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar.
lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them?
what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world.
|
On May 10 2012 01:03 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:29 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 00:23 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2012 19:04 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:55 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
Destiny regularly says bigoted things.
Destiny is known to say these things.
They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs.
EDIT
You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you?
TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL.
The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response. Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything. They could have fined Destiny. They could have suspended him. They could have forced him to apologize. They could have made him do whatever as punishment. But they chose to fire him instead. You need to stop saying this. He left voluntarily. He was not fired. People have tried multiple times to tell you that he was NOT fired. Start listening to them. I have no idea if anything you're posting has a valid point, because your insistence on spouting something you've been told multiple times is factually incorrect is currently overriding everything else in my mind. If he wasn't fired--then there was no witch hunt. You can't be serious. Clearly you are just a bored troll. If a black person in Mississippi in 1870 hear that a lynch mob is coming to hang him and he chooses to leave town before they can catch him, that means there was no lynch mob?
if a white person killed a black person and in fear for retribution he hangs himself, who is responsible for the death here?
duh
|
Chocobo still defending a player he has literally declared that he loves in another thread after this incident occured. And you call other people biased. OK! That's right, the news breaks that Destiny has racially abused someone, and his response was to publicly state that Destiny, I love you!. Way to support racism, dude.
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism. Chocobo, you are now complaining that people wrote to the 'wrong place'? Previously you stated that people should NOT complain at all. So you are actually upset because people complained at all. Your opinion of the wrong action to take is anyone complaining about Destiny's behaviour at all.
Unfortunately for you, not everyone agreed that Destiny's actions were fine. The sponsors agreed that Destiny's actions were not OK. They did not agree with Chocobo that Destiny's actions were not racist and were not worthy of complaint.
The sponsors support my view that Destiny was out of line. That is because both myself and the sponsors operate in the real corporate world where racism is wrong and not tolerated. Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
|
On May 10 2012 00:55 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:47 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 18:51 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:41 Timmsh wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. Some even believe that the anti-bigotry mail was a minority opinion--it should be easy to gather up the majority and have them send letters to Razer. The reason this isn't done is because Destiny supporters don't actually want to try to affect policy, they just want to whine on TL. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. I was actually thinking about all the Destiny supporters who are upset at letter writers for a decision that Quantic and Razer made. People should be free to write whatever they want to whomever they want. Actively manipulating the judgement of Razer by collecting a small mob and sending mails is wrong, because it does not give Razer the opportunity to see the problem in the right context. It's not for nothing people had to gather a small mob for this to have any effect. If one person would have wrote a mail, nothing would have happened (thus your statement, that Razer just follows policy is not correct) Razer is pushed by the mob to act on the spot, without the correct context and this is wrong because the mob knew this could (/would) happen and thus manipulating the judgement of razer by sending mails as a mob. A crowd did not have to be gathered together. Enough people were already against racist behavior and hence decided to take action. When given the most effective and expedient way to resolve the issue, they moved. The initial thread was 130+ pages long, do you really believe it was a small number of people that disliked Destiny's racist past. You have such a misinformed/biased/deluded view that it's no wonder you keep arriving at the wrong conclusions. You talk as if all of these people were watching Destiny's stream, saw the racist speech take place, all were deeply offended and each of them chose individually to voice their displeasure. That would be WRONG. There was exactly one person who was offended enough to not let things go- and it was the only person who had any reason to be offended. It was Warden, the target of the racist statement. And how did he decide to handle the situation? Not by talking to Destiny... not by emailing Quantic... no, instead he made a very public "fuck this guy Destiny, and here's why you should hate him too" post. I'm sure Warden just wanted to lower the public opinion of Destiny, but that isn't what happened. Instead the crowd of people in the thread continually escalated the intensity of the discussion, going all the way from "Destiny is a dick, I don't think his speech is appropriate" to "FUCK THAT RACIST PRICK! let's get him! what can we do to get back at him?!" An angry mob was formed, and as soon as someone mentioned that one way to hurt him would be to mass complain to Razer, everyone immediately did it. I'm sorry, but you are absolutely insane if you think this is the best way to handle things. Angry mobs are not the way to handle problems. I can't believe I actually need to say that... I can only hope your were simply misinformed about the nature of the situation. You also seem to ignore the fact that the mob complained to the wrong place. There is no doubt that the most appropriate place to send complaint emails would have been Quantic. They were Destiny's employer, after all. Emailing Razer was out of line, and just plain stupid. Out of line because they were only chosen by the mob because Razer holds financial power, and is more likely to demand the immediate firing of Destiny, whereas Quantic might have given him another opportunity to fix the situation. Stupid because starting a trend of mass-complaining to sponsors whenever something is unpopular could drive sponsors away from SC2. Stop ignoring the fact that these were the actions of an angry mob (who were not personally offended, but were encouraged to be angry by others), and that they took the wrong course of action. And don't go back to "but it's just free speech, it's not illegal for them to email Razer if they want to", because that's beside the point and not one single person disagrees with that. why do you think there was an angry mob? why do you think such mob didn't write to complexity's sponsors during Naniwa's case? emailing sponsors over trivial matter is overreaction. And usually sponsors wont budge. However if it is not a trivial matter, like racial slurs, it's pretty much no brainer. use your sense for christ sake.
I know precisely why there was an angry mob. I don't know the specifics of Naniwa's case. I don't know exactly what point you are trying to make here, can you clarify it please?
I think emailing sponsors is a measure of last resort, appropriate only if Quantic refused to do anything about valid complaints. It is not Razer's job to deal with Destiny's behavior, it threatens the continued sponsorship of Quantic, and it starts an ugly trend that could result in sponsors leaving the scene because they don't want to deal with the negative publicity campaigns.
Considering that the option to simply never see Destiny again exists, and the option to send complaints to Quantic exists, there is no good reason for Razer to have been contacted.
|
On May 10 2012 01:06 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 01:03 Chocobo wrote:On May 10 2012 00:29 lorkac wrote:On May 10 2012 00:23 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2012 19:04 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:55 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:
[quote]
I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing.
When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response. Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything. They could have fined Destiny. They could have suspended him. They could have forced him to apologize. They could have made him do whatever as punishment. But they chose to fire him instead. You need to stop saying this. He left voluntarily. He was not fired. People have tried multiple times to tell you that he was NOT fired. Start listening to them. I have no idea if anything you're posting has a valid point, because your insistence on spouting something you've been told multiple times is factually incorrect is currently overriding everything else in my mind. If he wasn't fired--then there was no witch hunt. You can't be serious. Clearly you are just a bored troll. If a black person in Mississippi in 1870 hear that a lynch mob is coming to hang him and he chooses to leave town before they can catch him, that means there was no lynch mob? if a white person killed a black person and in fear for retribution he hangs himself, who is responsible for the death here? duh
This is a terrible analogy that doesn't cover any argument put forward by anybody in this thread. Pretty much agree with Chocobo in this particular case, just because there wasn't a burning doesn't mean there wasn't a witch hunt.
|
On May 10 2012 01:04 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. The punishment was not decided on TL, it was decided by Razer and quantic. If you dislike the punishment, send letters to quantic and Razer.
I'm sorry, allow me to correct the analogy.
I spit on your car, you ask your friend to kindly beat me with a crowbar please.
|
On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour.
Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism.
The facts I see are as follows:
-SC2 casters, streamers use inappropriate language (context deemed by society.)
-ONE person starts a witch hunt, not a group of people, JUST ONE. The mob mentality follows "for a greater good" spiel regarding ESPORTS.
-Sponsor fails at providing its employees protection from such an incident due to lack of due diligence on their part. Necessary steps to prevent PR nightmares are not taken by both company and employee.
If you expect SC2 as an ESPORT to grow, then you must not enforce your beliefs on newer entrants into the community. Instead, community members, fans and sponsors must be willing to put effort and compromise their stances as equally as possible. I've already mentioned once about implementing a standard in regards to player conduct and how we could categorize SC2 ESPORTS media for appropriate audiences. I suggest you go back and read that.
And before you attempt to say "racism is bad", consider that no one is supporting racism, violence, alcohol, cannabis and other recreational drugs, rather society has systems in place to regulate them: something that this growing community that we participate in, lacks.
|
On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour.
Don't twist it to make it like the majority of the community sent a letter to Razer. They didn't. The people contacting sponsors are a clear minority. That is all I stated.
I feel offended, that you imply that I do not oppose racism. I expect retraction and apology.
Funny enough you think that the team should be the right body to complain to and to make a decision. Please tell me how much time passed between the initial accusation and the first mail to the sponsor. Was this time enough to make a rational and informed decision on what to do? Please also take into account the local time.
|
On May 10 2012 01:04 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them? what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world.
wha... what?
How exactly is it "spin" to describe the facts of what actually happened (the forming of an angry mob who made less than perfect choices)? Those are the actual facts with no distortion involved whatsoever.
|
On May 10 2012 01:04 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:58 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 23:00 Lightspeaker wrote:
My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. This has been covered repeatedly. Yes, everyone has the personal freedom to do what they want, no one disagrees there. What we are discussing is how inappropriate the actions chosen were. Ignoring the issue of legality for a moment, suppose I didn't like you and I spit on the hood of your car in front of you,and you responded by beating me half to death with a crowbar. It's not an issue of "hey, you do something bad and something bad happens to you, that's how it works around here." It's about how inappropriate the response was, given that there were better options available and that this response who chosen in anger. Note to certain people: I am not saying racist language is as harmless as spitting, nor am I saying emailed complaints are as bad as beating someone with a crowbar. lol if you realize your analogy fails, why use them? what you are trying to do is called 'spin'. I bet you dont have much experience in real world.
Says the 16 year old white suburban male.
|
On May 10 2012 01:08 revel8 wrote:
Chocobo still steadfastly apologising for racism.
Maybe if I was brought up in 1950's Mississippi, I would agree with Chocobo, however I was not and so regard such views as outdated and intolerant. Welcome to the 21st Century Chocobo, racism is no longer tolerated. Modern times are tough for the kkk demographic.
Your reading comprehension has severely failed you if you think this discussion is about pro-racism vs anti-racism.
|
If we have to excuse pro players using racial slurs in order to allow eSports to grow, then eSports doesn't deserve to grow. This is a core value that no one should compromise for the sake of entertainment.
|
On May 10 2012 01:15 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 00:40 revel8 wrote:On May 10 2012 00:19 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors? The first case already resulted in a sacking. Also: A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group. Don't twist it to make out that those who oppose racism are a minority in this community or in this society . They are the majority. The sponsors also oppose racism. The community as a whole should not be tarnished by prominent members who make racial slurs and then will not apologise for it. Incidents of racist abuse occuring and then members of the community being apologists for these racist comments is more likely to scare sponsors away from the SC2 scene. If various people had not made racist comments then the sponsors would not even have an issue to deal with. It would have been preferable to the teams to take action to police their players but Quantic failed to resolve the issue quickly enough and the issue was escalated. Quantic should have issued a prominent public statement declaring that they were investigating the matter and taking it seriously. Such a course would have helped prevent any escalation to sponsor notification. It appears Quantic dropped the ball on this one. A clear message has been sent to pro-gamers - don't make racist comments, people in the community do not like it. The vast majority of pro-gamers do not make racist comments anyway, they are mature enough to avoid such nonsense, so they will be unaffected by this incident as they already self-govern their behaviour. Not entirely true. Nor do you have any supporting evidence to provide regarding a unianimous decision regarding the community's stance on racism. .
I did not say there was a unamious decision on racism within the community. The kkk demographic are always going to be present to support it. I said the majority view was opposition to racism.
Are you attempting to dispute my claim that the majority of either society at large or the SC2 community or TL members are opposed to racism? Are you implying that the majority are racist?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
