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It seems to me that the common conception here is that everyone who called for Destiny's complete or abject removal tried to talk to the team first.
From my perspective, although I may be wrong, I haven't seen those individuals rounding up their mob to e-mail the team. All I see is them rounding up their mob in order to get people fired, and always directly to the sponsors. I haven't seen any mass campaigns for writing to the team.
Yes, Razer reacted the way it did; however, what was the actual cause of that? Razer didn't do anything before the mass e-mails, right? And I am pretty sure that, all this time, Razer knew of Destiny's consistent behavior. They only reacted once the community, or at least a part of it, began screaming at them and threatening to withdraw their support. Which company wants to deal with such a mercurial market? Nobody. It doesn't make sense to keep on firing individuals left and right simply because your market asks for it; eventually, you'll run out of individuals.
We are posting here on TL because this is where our side, the side that believes in appropriate punishment, the side that condones neither mob rule nor racism, can be heard. I'm pretty sure there are also quite a few of us posting on Reddit. If we post somewhere else, we won't be heard.
And, like I said (and as the SOTG pillars said), a negative e-mail saying "Fuck you I'm not supporting your products because you sponsor [insert player name here]" is much more destructive than a positive e-mail saying "I'm supporting you because I think it's great that you're sponsoring [insert player name here]."
IdrA, Destiny, Naniwa and practically ever progamer has known about the issues behind the usage of racial slurs; IdrA has been fined so many times and defeatured considerably, and (despite me being an IdrA fanboy) I'll say that that's right, that's the professional approach to dealing with these issues.
We aren't telling you guys how Razer should have dealt with Destiny; we're telling you what the more "civilized" or "professional" or "sports-like" (based on how other established sports communities conduct themselves) should have reacted. We aren't saying that your intentions, which (I assume) are just to reduce or eliminate racism from e-sports, are bad; it's the method that's bad.
But I do agree shit wouldn't have gone down this way if he'd acted correctly; to quote Tyler on the Orb issue, he "should've manned up" and apologized. But I sure as hell wouldn't want our progamers to be pretentious about who they really are, but their actions should be punished accordingly (i.e. for Destiny, I'd go for the McEnroe style punishment of a fine of $65,000 and a two-month ban :D)
Again, the ends will never justify the means. We should strive for a professional e-sports regulating body, like the FIFA, ATP, etc., instead of resorting to mob rule. That's the professional thing to do.
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On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that.
Telling people they don't have power, but the sponsors only having power is not correct,
see my previous post, and mob behaviour in general!
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On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum.
I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny.
Some even believe that the anti-bigotry mail was a minority opinion--it should be easy to gather up the majority and have them send letters to Razer. The reason this isn't done is because Destiny supporters don't actually want to try to affect policy, they just want to whine on TL.
I assume this is the whining you're referencing.
I was actually thinking about all the Destiny supporters who are upset at letter writers for a decision that Quantic and Razer made. People should be free to write whatever they want to whomever they want.
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On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny.
This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up.
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On May 09 2012 18:29 DN.rSquar3d wrote:
It seems to me that the common conception here is that everyone who called for Destiny's complete or abject removal tried to talk to the team first.
From my perspective, although I may be wrong, I haven't seen those individuals rounding up their mob to e-mail the team. All I see is them rounding up their mob in order to get people fired, and always directly to the sponsors. I haven't seen any mass campaigns for writing to the team.
Yes, Razer reacted the way it did; however, what was the actual cause of that? Razer didn't do anything before the mass e-mails, right? And I am pretty sure that, all this time, Razer knew of Destiny's consistent behavior. They only reacted once the community, or at least a part of it, began screaming at them and threatening to withdraw their support. Which company wants to deal with such a mercurial market? Nobody. It doesn't make sense to keep on firing individuals left and right simply because your market asks for it; eventually, you'll run out of individuals.
We are posting here on TL because this is where our side, the side that believes in appropriate punishment, the side that condones neither mob rule nor racism, can be heard. I'm pretty sure there are also quite a few of us posting on Reddit. If we post somewhere else, we won't be heard.
And, like I said (and as the SOTG pillars said), a negative e-mail saying "Fuck you I'm not supporting your products because you sponsor [insert player name here]" is much more destructive than a positive e-mail saying "I'm supporting you because I think it's great that you're sponsoring [insert player name here]."
IdrA, Destiny, Naniwa and practically ever progamer has known about the issues behind the usage of racial slurs; IdrA has been fined so many times and defeatured considerably, and (despite me being an IdrA fanboy) I'll say that that's right, that's the professional approach to dealing with these issues.
We aren't telling you guys how Razer should have dealt with Destiny; we're telling you what the more "civilized" or "professional" or "sports-like" (based on how other established sports communities conduct themselves) should have reacted. We aren't saying that your intentions, which (I assume) are just to reduce or eliminate racism from e-sports, are bad; it's the method that's bad.
But I do agree shit wouldn't have gone down this way if he'd acted correctly; to quote Tyler on the Orb issue, he "should've manned up" and apologized. But I sure as hell wouldn't want our progamers to be pretentious about who they really are, but their actions should be punished accordingly (i.e. for Destiny, I'd go for the McEnroe style punishment of a fine of $65,000 and a two-month ban :D)
Again, the ends will never justify the means. We should strive for a professional e-sports regulating body, like the FIFA, ATP, etc., instead of resorting to mob rule. That's the professional thing to do.
It was a 130+ page thread asking Destiny to apologize and Destiny telling everyone to fuck off. He was even telling people of the thread to fuck off on his twitter spreading the news of the discussion over multiple media outlets.
The thread lasted an entire day from morning till night and was building up faster than a live report. All of it was a concerted effort to ask Destiny to stop.
When Destiny made it abundantly clear that he would change for no one--sponsors were called as the crowd accepted that Destiny would not change and hence it would be fruitless to ask him to.
Idra gets fined because that is EG's policy.
Orb was fired because that was EG's policy.
Destiny was fired because that was Razer's policy.
If you disagree with a company's policy--talk to the company about it.
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On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. Some even believe that the anti-bigotry mail was a minority opinion--it should be easy to gather up the majority and have them send letters to Razer. The reason this isn't done is because Destiny supporters don't actually want to try to affect policy, they just want to whine on TL. I was actually thinking about all the Destiny supporters who are upset at letter writers for a decision that Quantic and Razer made. People should be free to write whatever they want to whomever they want.
Actively manipulating the judgement of Razer by collecting a small mob and sending mails is wrong, because it does not give Razer the opportunity to see the problem in the right context.
It's not for nothing people had to gather a small mob for this to have any effect.
If one person would have wrote a mail, nothing would have happened (thus your statement, that Razer just follows policy is not correct)
Razer is pushed by the mob to act on the spot, without the correct context and this is wrong because the mob knew this could (/would) happen and thus manipulating the judgement of razer by sending mails as a mob.
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On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up.
They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response.
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On May 09 2012 18:41 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. Some even believe that the anti-bigotry mail was a minority opinion--it should be easy to gather up the majority and have them send letters to Razer. The reason this isn't done is because Destiny supporters don't actually want to try to affect policy, they just want to whine on TL. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. I was actually thinking about all the Destiny supporters who are upset at letter writers for a decision that Quantic and Razer made. People should be free to write whatever they want to whomever they want. Actively manipulating the judgement of Razer by collecting a small mob and sending mails is wrong, because it does not give Razer the opportunity to see the problem in the right context. It's not for nothing people had to gather a small mob for this to have any effect. If one person would have wrote a mail, nothing would have happened (thus your statement, that Razer just follows policy is not correct) Razer is pushed by the mob to act on the spot, without the correct context and this is wrong because the mob knew this could (/would) happen and thus manipulating the judgement of razer by sending mails as a mob.
A crowd did not have to be gathered together. Enough people were already against racist behavior and hence decided to take action. When given the most effective and expedient way to resolve the issue, they moved. The initial thread was 130+ pages long, do you really believe it was a small number of people that disliked Destiny's racist past.
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On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response.
Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything.
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On May 09 2012 18:51 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:41 Timmsh wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. Some even believe that the anti-bigotry mail was a minority opinion--it should be easy to gather up the majority and have them send letters to Razer. The reason this isn't done is because Destiny supporters don't actually want to try to affect policy, they just want to whine on TL. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. I was actually thinking about all the Destiny supporters who are upset at letter writers for a decision that Quantic and Razer made. People should be free to write whatever they want to whomever they want. Actively manipulating the judgement of Razer by collecting a small mob and sending mails is wrong, because it does not give Razer the opportunity to see the problem in the right context. It's not for nothing people had to gather a small mob for this to have any effect. If one person would have wrote a mail, nothing would have happened (thus your statement, that Razer just follows policy is not correct) Razer is pushed by the mob to act on the spot, without the correct context and this is wrong because the mob knew this could (/would) happen and thus manipulating the judgement of razer by sending mails as a mob. A crowd did not have to be gathered together. Enough people were already against racist behavior and hence decided to take action. When given the most effective and expedient way to resolve the issue, they moved. The initial thread was 130+ pages long, do you really believe it was a small number of people that disliked Destiny's racist past.
If what you say here is true, i rest my case.
But i doubt the 130+ pages was full of people sending mails to razer because they thought (out of their own) that they had to do that.
Or do they knew they need to form a mob, so their mails would have maximum effect?
Don't you have any doubts about your statements?
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On May 09 2012 18:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response. Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything.
They could have fined Destiny. They could have suspended him. They could have forced him to apologize. They could have made him do whatever as punishment. But they chose to fire him instead.
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On May 09 2012 19:04 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:55 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response. Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything. They could have fined Destiny. They could have suspended him. They could have forced him to apologize. They could have made him do whatever as punishment. But they chose to fire him instead.
Repeating yourself doesn't make it true that he was fired, which he wasn't. No matter how big the list of Quantic's options was, they couldn't have explored any of them because there was no time.
On May 09 2012 19:08 lorkac wrote:
All the other options takes as much time to decide as deciding to let him go.
The news that Destiny was leaving came out after people emailed Razer. I hesitate to commit post hoc ergo propert hoc but it seems pretty obvious these things are connected. Nobody wrote to Quantic and then waited for them to do something.
The point of writing to sponsors is you deliberately take away all the organization's options by strongarming them.
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On May 09 2012 19:07 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 19:04 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:55 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language.
The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all.
Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response. Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything. They could have fined Destiny. They could have suspended him. They could have forced him to apologize. They could have made him do whatever as punishment. But they chose to fire him instead. Repeating yourself doesn't make it true that he was fired, which he wasn't. No matter how big the list of Quantic's options was, they couldn't have explored any of them because there was no time.
All the other options takes as much time to decide as deciding to let him go.
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@lorkac,
oBlade's point is rather simple: teams don't have any deciding factor, only sponsors, because the "mob" decided to keep writing to them. If that's how it goes, why not disband all teams sponsored by Razer and make one consolidated Team Razer, since there's nothing that a team can do with regards to its players? Since we, the community, won't let them decide issues regarding their players?
Since we, the e-sports community, want to be at the same level of acceptance as other sports, but want to act less professionally. As far as I know, we're the only aspiring sport where the "mob" has all the power, and the "majority" (note quotation marks) seems to not want to have a professional regulating body and have all the power to themselves. Got offended (regardless of racial slurs or not)? Send an e-mail to the sponsor. While you're at it, declare to all other people that the e-sports community is morally ascendant and can react on a whim to boot players. No proper regulatory body (unlike virtually ALL sports), no deliberation; just one simple knee-jerk reaction.
The way the community at large treats issues like these is just as unprofessional as it gets. Take a cue from TL. They didn't outright call for his booting or whatever, but placed sanctions (namely the defeaturing of his stream). Maybe add in a monetary fine. But in no other sport have I heard that players get booted simply because the community clamors for it, simply because a certain group of people were offended. Hell, Floyd Mayweather and John McEnroe offended more people and officials in their careers than Destiny did (even if you multiply all of his actions by a hundred). They didn't get booted, now did they? They got hate, they got sanctions, they got fined, one of them went to prison, but none of them, literally none of them, was absolutely banned.
That's fact. Now, do we wanna be treated as a real sport? Then our community has to act like a real sports community. Lobby for a regulating body. Stop being so knee-jerk. Stop being so sensitive (Mayweather hated my entire race online on YouTube; I didn't cry or whine, because I know he's just being a dick).
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
Morgan Freeman did say that, if we want racism to disappear, THEN STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. Things only have negative meanings IF THAT'S WHAT WE ASSOCIATE WITH IT. The more we emphasize it, the longer it stays that way. And that's at the cost of scaring sponsors (I can't emphasize State of the Game Episode 65 enough) and potential viewers.
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On May 09 2012 13:41 Prodigal wrote:Lets take a fresh new approach to this thread. Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 11:04 v3chr0 wrote:
Also! wouldn't it help a ton to put a Disclaimer on your stream? Anything I do/say is representative of myself only, and/or I may use offensive language, none of it is true, I have a bad habit im trying to kick, etc. I know that if Esports went to T.V, you'd see something like this before the show starts.
This idea here has merit. Take this as an analogy: The prohibition in america/canada in the 1930s (Wiki Link for explanation) limited the use of alcohol. The wiki page further describes prohibition put in place because "Drink itself was not looked upon as culpable, any more than food deserved blame for the sin of gluttony. Excess was a personal indiscretion." How does this reflect Esports? We look at Discrimination, foul language and Poor professionalism in a similar way: it is frowned upon in society. Take a moment to see similar problems with Tobbacco, Marijuana and recreational drugs and see how they are handled today. You might even have taken a guess at what i'm about to suggest  My stance on the matter is that free speech, racism and professionalism that most are expected in E-Sports can co-exist, provided that a level of standards can be set and abided by each individual working in the industry. What I find truly confusing is that WE ALREADY HAVE STANDARDS THAT SPONSORS CAN GET BEHIND: TV Parential GuidelinesESRBMotion Picture Association of AmericaYour reigon and ratings may vary, but the point is, we have a (hefty few) book of standards to practise with, yet noone in this SC2 ESPORTS community has taken the time to go ahead and implement them. Not even Blizzard (past singleplayer). To clarify, I do NOT want to censor streams/games. I only wish to implement a system where a streamer like  Destiny can stream, but have disclaimers that he runs a stream that is rated "adults only" by ESRB for its extreme language. We could even see a system where streamed games are later edited and censored for language to attain a higher rating on a standard that could be set. I went ahead and skipped the argument of wether a team should suffer for the actions of an individual, because of the fact that now a team could go ahead and start selecting players that market their streams to specific audiences. I certainly wouldn't mind hearing about Quantic's 18+ Destiny Stream, over Quantic Destiny's Stream. It even looks better to a customer, because now the customer can differentiate between a streamer/cast (product) from another. Will this stop the witch hunting? It deflates the pro witch hunt argument regarding "my child is watching that stream!" What this will do is allow sponsors to take a more concrete stance when it comes to complaints in the mail. They've done their due diligence, and see that a complaining customer is just blowing hot air instead of a legitimate complaint. This will protect the players and casters we care about, that grow this community. Thats my vision of E-Sports. If TeamLiquid gave a damn, they'd start implementing something similar to their live streams, vods and casted games too. I might even find some time after work tommorrow to post it in their Website feedback forum.
I definitely agree. There are T.V shows that purposely get picked up because of the 'different' content (Jackass). You can't compare SC2 to Jackass, but the point is, the Starcraft 2 viewer experience doesn't have to be all one dimensional (all professional). Shows like the GSL, MLG, IPL, big tournaments should hold these high standards, the rest should be left up to the player, or their management.
DISCLAIMERS! (4tw?)
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My word, the arguments about free speech in here are painful and completely nonesensical.
Look: Destiny is "free" to say whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to be the most racist, sexist, bigoted idiot in existence on his stream then he can do that if he chooses to.
However he is also "free" to take the consequences of what he says, should any consequences come about. He was acting as a representative of Quantic and Razer and used racially-offensive language whilst working (because this is his job). The consequences in this case were that he had to quit being a representative because people finally lost their patience with his awful attitude.
Cause and effect of professionalism. He did something in his work environment that was reported and the bosses disagreed with, there was a response. To compare: if I call someone an asshole on the ladder then I'm unlikely to see any consequences because I'm effectively a nobody and SC2 isn't my job; I don't make money off it, let alone a living. I don't actually answer to anyone when I'm playing; I'm not on a team or sponsored or anything like that. On the other hand if I call a colleague at work a retard then I'm going to get in trouble with my supervisor, and possibly my project sponsor. I'd still technically be "free" to do it, it just wouldn't be very smart and I'd have consequences to deal with.
I can somewhat sympathise with Quantic (although some of the the comments from their CEO in here earlier came across as a little naive and, in one case, childish); however Destiny was always going to be a risk as his attitude was well-known in advance, they chose to take that risk. Regardless it'd probably have been a good diea to at least acknowledge there was an issue there with a "we're looking into it"...
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On May 09 2012 21:43 DN.rSquar3d wrote:
@lorkac,
oBlade's point is rather simple: teams don't have any deciding factor, only sponsors, because the "mob" decided to keep writing to them. If that's how it goes, why not disband all teams sponsored by Razer and make one consolidated Team Razer, since there's nothing that a team can do with regards to its players? Since we, the community, won't let them decide issues regarding their players?
Since we, the e-sports community, want to be at the same level of acceptance as other sports, but want to act less professionally. As far as I know, we're the only aspiring sport where the "mob" has all the power, and the "majority" (note quotation marks) seems to not want to have a professional regulating body and have all the power to themselves. Got offended (regardless of racial slurs or not)? Send an e-mail to the sponsor. While you're at it, declare to all other people that the e-sports community is morally ascendant and can react on a whim to boot players. No proper regulatory body (unlike virtually ALL sports), no deliberation; just one simple knee-jerk reaction.
The way the community at large treats issues like these is just as unprofessional as it gets. Take a cue from TL. They didn't outright call for his booting or whatever, but placed sanctions (namely the defeaturing of his stream). Maybe add in a monetary fine. But in no other sport have I heard that players get booted simply because the community clamors for it, simply because a certain group of people were offended. Hell, Floyd Mayweather and John McEnroe offended more people and officials in their careers than Destiny did (even if you multiply all of his actions by a hundred). They didn't get booted, now did they? They got hate, they got sanctions, they got fined, one of them went to prison, but none of them, literally none of them, was absolutely banned.
That's fact. Now, do we wanna be treated as a real sport? Then our community has to act like a real sports community. Lobby for a regulating body. Stop being so knee-jerk. Stop being so sensitive (Mayweather hated my entire race online on YouTube; I didn't cry or whine, because I know he's just being a dick).
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
Morgan Freeman did say that, if we want racism to disappear, THEN STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. Things only have negative meanings IF THAT'S WHAT WE ASSOCIATE WITH IT. The more we emphasize it, the longer it stays that way. And that's at the cost of scaring sponsors (I can't emphasize State of the Game Episode 65 enough) and potential viewers.
The goal is not to control players and members of eSports with a threat to call sponsors. What happened with Destiny is merely a precedent and warning that if a team does not manage and take care of its team (you know, they're jobs) that there are consequences for it. Quantic hired a known shit talker without a contingency for when he talks shit--that is just lazy management. When he does talk shit and the community tries talking to him--he gives the community a big fuck you. He should have (even before the whole shit talking happened) have already been told by Quantic to stop doing that and have already threatened him with fines/suspension/both if he did. Why go all through that? Because when you hire a known shit talker--you need to be ready for when he talks shit.
Quantic will not make the same mistake as they did with Destiny. They're going to be more careful and more precise about who they bring into their team. People in their team are going to be asked to not just go around calling people gooks. Policies will now be in place to make sure their sponsors never get mailed again.
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
Also, I hate that Morgan Freeman quote because it requires the assumption that racism has been resolved. People under slavery will not end slavery by simply not talking about. People under apartheid will not end apartheid by not talking about. People who are given less pay, worse schools, and not vote will not get equality by not talking about. It's actually one of the least helpful ways to resolve race issues. It's a very privileged thing for a rich famous Hollywood actor to say.
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On May 09 2012 23:22 lorkac wrote:
By sending mail to sponsors once--the community has made changes that will allow them to almost never have to send letters to sponsors or teams again.
How can you state this, when this is the SECOND time people sent mail to the sponsors?
The first case already resulted in a sacking.
Also:
A small group (not THE community - you are not everyone) has made changes, that will affect the whole community. From where I'm standing it's not a good thing, that a small group of angry people can introduce ANY changes just by being an angry group.
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On May 09 2012 19:04 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:55 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response. Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything. They could have fined Destiny. They could have suspended him. They could have forced him to apologize. They could have made him do whatever as punishment. But they chose to fire him instead. You need to stop saying this. He left voluntarily. He was not fired. People have tried multiple times to tell you that he was NOT fired. Start listening to them.
I have no idea if anything you're posting has a valid point, because your insistence on spouting something you've been told multiple times is factually incorrect is currently overriding everything else in my mind.
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On May 10 2012 00:23 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 19:04 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:55 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:46 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:38 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:33 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 18:26 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language.
The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all.
Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that. I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing. When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum. I'm bringing up TL because Destiny supporters keep asking why the band-wagoners got Destiny fired when they didn't. Razer got destiny fired because it is probably their policy to do so. Getting mad at supposed band wagoners is getting mad at the wrong crowd since it wasn't their policy, their rules or their laws that was involved in firing Destiny. This isn't factual. First you blame Quantic for getting involved with a player who has these well-known tendencies and not firing him. But you don't think as highly of Razer, who apparently had no idea what a monster they were sponsoring? I don't think it's clear what portion of Destiny leaving was Razer evaluating their goals/etc. and what portion was Razer simply reacting to the apparent shitstorm. But I doubt you can claim it was purely or even mostly based on Razer's own policy because they would have released him when Quantic picked him up. They took a chance--it didn't work out. They had many avenues of punishments they could have passed onto Destiny--but they chose to fire him instead. Whether you agree or disagree with their decision is not the fault of TL or its community members. If you read the original thread--they simply asked for Destiny to apologize. The drama was intensified by Destiny's response. Nothing you are posting is right. Razer couldn't have fired Destiny because Destiny wasn't fired to begin with. Not every post in the thread was someone new chastising Destiny. The polls I saw were fairly well split. People were forwarding letters very early on, it totally preempted Quantic's ability to do anything. They could have fined Destiny. They could have suspended him. They could have forced him to apologize. They could have made him do whatever as punishment. But they chose to fire him instead. You need to stop saying this. He left voluntarily. He was not fired. People have tried multiple times to tell you that he was NOT fired. Start listening to them. I have no idea if anything you're posting has a valid point, because your insistence on spouting something you've been told multiple times is factually incorrect is currently overriding everything else in my mind.
If he wasn't fired--then there was no witch hunt. If there was no witch hunt--then there was nothing wrong with sending letters to sponsors since it wasn't a witch hunt.
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