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On May 09 2012 07:58 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 07:53 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:41 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:35 TheResidentEvil wrote:
no one person is greater than the community. if the community doesn't want people slandering and acting like teenagers then they will get weeded out just like the people that already have. Don't do anything to bring this on yourself and you don't have to worry about it. Your post makes a lot of assumptions. A) being the entire community and B) that the entire community messages these sponsors. It's a minority going out of their way lynching pro gamers via e-mailing sponsors. No one likes racist slurs, but not that many people actually give a shit when someone ragequits on stream and says one racist word. Not to the point they make it their life goal to make it as difficult as possible for that player to succeed in esports. I almost want to start sending the same empty threats these people do to tournament sponsors who hire casters I don't enjoy. On May 09 2012 07:41 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:31 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 07:24 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:13 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 06:54 Celestia wrote:On May 09 2012 06:11 Prplppleatr wrote:
Honestly, because of incidents such as these, where the community improperly reacts, I have decided to drop my dreams of being involved in esports and SC2. While I still enjoy watching certain games or tournaments, the community has really ruined this game for me and I will no longer support any part of SC2 with my money and I would not recommend any company get involved.
Ie, there are other indirect consequences other than losing sponsors....losing fans/community members/aspiring esports enthusiasts (I highly doubt I am the only one who has turned away from SC2 as a result of the community). How come the community ruined you the game? Oh the irony, overeacting about other people you think they are overeacting. Silly stuff. Sorry, let me clarify. I wanted to get very involved in esports, but because of situations such as these, where the community improperly reacts (IMO), I have decided that I would rather focus my efforts elsewhere as it is simply too risky. I.e. if a group of people, even if it is very small, do not like me, they can get me fired regardless of how my employer may feel. NOTE: I'm not arguing for or against any of the punishments, but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great. It is simply my personality, I am an all or nothing type of person when I set a goal. This was not the only thing, there are others, and if you truly would like to know, PM me. People wont like you if you act inappropriately. For example, like a biggot. If you want to get involved in e-sports, don't act like a biggot and you can avoid situations like this. Your missing my point. I do not believe that someone should be allowed to act inappropriately, "but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great." I.e. that the employers can not make the decision that they feel is appropriate and are forced into situations because people immediately go to sponsors, which dictates a specific reaction. ...if you read the post I noted that. Please, actually read the post in its entirety. Please, try actually stopping to analyze the situation.. The sponsor or team wont fire you if they don't think you acted inappropriately. Destiny and Orb aren't some innocent victims here, they acted inappropriately, and the sponsors also thought they were acting inappropriately. They wouldn't have made that decision if they didn't think Destiny was acting inappropriately. So the solution would be to just not act inappropriately and this wont happen to you if you get involved in e-sports, so it shouldn't effect you at all unless you wanted to act inappropriately on air while being sponsored. No matter what job you go in, there will always people higher up than your immediate superiors. If your immediate superior wont respond to your inappropriate actions, people can always go to your immediate superior's immediate superior. That's just how things work. They didn't think they were acting inappropriately, at least, I doubt they gave the slightest of shits -- until people slew baseless threats of boycott at them. Then at that point the decision is real easy. This is NOTHING like "the work place." You make racist/homophobic remarks at work, and your customers are offended. Your branch manager wont respond to their complaints, so they go to corporate, and corporate will ask your manager to fire you. Even if the branch manager isn't made aware of the customer's complaints beforehand, it will always be in the customer's power to go the branch manager's immediate superior. That's EXACTLY how the work place works no matter where you go. So just don't act inappropriately and this wont happen to you. ...Lol. This is absolutely NOTHING like the work place. These are athletes/celebrities who have themselves to represent to a fanbase/public as much as they represent a team and it's sponsors. Workplace comparisons are non-existent nor relevant in the slightest. A player says a slur that fan stops watching his stream. A rockstar says a slur that fan stops listening to his music. An employee for a company, who does not represent himself in any way in his position other than for future employment with another company, says a slur that customer stops buying the product from the brand that employee represents. It's VERY simple.
And you know what happens to that employee that on behalf of the company spoke racial slurs to the public? Do I need to spell it out for you?
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On May 09 2012 10:47 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 10:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 09 2012 10:36 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 10:32 zimz wrote:
So this thread is saying if your a fan, you should not speak negatively of any Esports people for the good of Esports.
Brush it aside and stay in the audience? Serisousely how will this ever be possible? You don't control 50,000 esports people. You can't force anyone to not complain, or to complain because its Esports. People will complain, there will always be someone out of 50,000 Esports community who doesn't like something. Its up to the Team and its Sponsors how to deal with it, because there is always complaints. Its up to the team and sponsor to decide how important which complaint/opinions are. The Esports community is telling you to silence your oppinions unless they approve first. The Esports community is becoming insanely controlling. Start your own business. Doesn't have to be big, cut hair or sell sodas or something. You'll learn very quickly that the customer base defines how you act and how you sell. And some customer bases are more pleasant than others. Yes. Customers who dislike racial slurs are evil people?
Don't avoid what I'm referring to just to strawman.
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I think you guys read my post wrong. My post is against OP trying to control people, what they can or can't do or who they can let their oppions be known to. Anyways ops goal is mission impossible. good luck.
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You know, I was actually under the impression that people who posted in TL comments actually read the OP. My bad, I should have already figured that out.
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Ok, I read the OP, I do agree in majority, sponsors don't want to be handling our problems for us because they are forced to intervene otherwise it looks bad on them. It would be better to email and pressure the Team (last resort), it will have a similar effect and the sponors won't have to get involved, it's pointless to contact them.
It's like running to Daddy who will physically beat your Brother when hes bad, vs. going to Mommy who might smack him once and reprimand him. (sorry for the metaphor, kind of fits well though IMO, not saying that everyones Dad and Mom are like this) Dad = sponsor, Mom = Team/people immediately involved
Also! wouldn't it help a ton to put a Disclaimer on your stream? Anything I do/say is representative of myself only, and/or I may use offensive language, none of it is true, I have a bad habit im trying to kick, etc. I know that if Esports went to T.V, you'd see something like this before the show starts.
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On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day.
It doesn't need a cleanup, the internet is a huge place. If people like a particular kind of content, they can patronize that content they like. They don't need to appoint themselves Commissioner Gordon and shine the Razer logo into the sky every time they find content they disagree with.
For instance, Razer has sponsored a ton of different things besides Quantic which Destiny was a small part of. If someone likes what Razer is doing, he can tell them and also buy their stuff. If we all acted in this way of telling sponsors what NOT to do, there wouldn't be sponsors. (This isn't a slippery slope, I'm saying that if you want to keep the right to whine to sponsors on a whim, then you can't be surprised if everyone else exercises the same right, and they ruin the sponsorship of the things you like to watch.) This is contingent on the fact that the real cause of Destiny leaving was the apparent uproar and the trouble it caused for Razer and Quantic, not the actual words, which by now people at Razer would have noticed just by clicking through streams here. They ought to have done something earlier if the issue for Razer was the words rather than the existence of a shitstorm.
You don't have to stop eating Pringles just because they happen to sponsor some boxing match and you think that's a brutal, inhumane sport, for instance. And it wouldn't make much sense if you flooded them with angry mail if you didn't really have the money to buy Pringles to begin with, because you're a non-entity to them. Pretend boxing is Destiny and Pringles is Razer, does this make sense?
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On May 09 2012 09:29 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 09:08 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day. The point is, the community shouldn't be targeting any terms at all. I'm sure someone with a mentally challenged child thinks "retarded" is more offensive than "gook". If this silly community really must take these issues into their own hands than be consistent about it or the community will look even worse than it already does. Are you defending your right to say gook by saying its silly to think retarded is offensive? Equating another social group with being weaker or less than another social group is wrong. Yes, that includes retard, bitch, gyp, pollack, Limey, etc... The reason they are bad is not because they are offensive--being offensive has no bearing on this. The reason they are wrong is because you are equating a race or class or sex or whatever as being an insult. If I was upset a someone, I wouldn't call him smart and beautiful because I find those terms uplifting. I would instead call that person negative descriptors like shit, fucker, asshole. But racists and bigots see no difference between calling someone Asian (gook) and calling that same person an idiot. To racists, idiotic and Asian are synonyms. As is black (nigger) and dangerous. As is woman (bitch) and weak. To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male. We're not asking for people to stop being offensive, we're asking them to stop thinking that calling others a race you dislike is a legitimate insult.
What is legitimate about insulting people in the first place? Bullies insult kids into committing *suicide* at school; racial slurs are really just a broader type of insult; there is nothing that makes this particularly worse than other insults by definition. It just happens to (occasionally) share some brutal history as with the "n-word"; in other cases its simply a derogatory expression for a particular race (i.e. "gook"). What about other broad insults that target nerds or jocks, or blondes? Its just one different type of insult in a range of insults.
All of them are wrong; are you arguing that one is more wrong than the other? That it is so hurtful to call someone a gook, that it should be an offense that gets people kicked off a team - but that going on a personal tirade against someone is okay because it can not be as offensive as a racial slur?
You seem to be suggesting this, as you target racial slurs in particular as being wrong, but nothing else. I would be somewhat okay (relatively speaking) if you said, we should work on one thing at a time. And our focus for now is racial slurs. If you said so in an earlier comment I apologize as I only read your most recent one.
Because some personal insults can be really brutal, and affect people on a deeper level than an off-handed racial slur uttered in a moment of rage. The opposite is true as well of course, depending on context and the individual being insulted.
So basically I don't think you can really say one is more harmful than the other in general. Both are wrong, to different degrees, depending on the situation. Also logically speaking I think you are 100% right about using a racial slur to insult people - I have the same conclusion about people using "gay" as a term that is synonymous with "bad" or "lame", and I hope it stops one day. But the one caveat is I would never say any word is definitively bad all the time (we are having a healthy discussion about the word "nigger" among other slurs - we can both write these words in full, but no one is offended because they understand the context).
Context always matters; and I think if someone is known for raging and has anger-management issues, there should be some understanding if they do use a racial slur to express their rage. But if they continue to make derogatory remarks and fail to improve, then their dismissal is justified.
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On May 09 2012 06:03 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:54 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 04:08 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 03:32 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 03:01 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 02:37 Chocobo wrote:On May 09 2012 01:50 lorkac wrote:
Destiny is the product, not the waiter...
If you ate at a restaurant and got sick afterwards, you complain to the restaurant, not the steak. Yes! You're finally getting closer to understanding my point. If you got sick, you would simply stop going to the restaurant, and if it really bothered you or if you thought it's something they need to be informed of, you would file a complaint with them. Here's what you shouldn't do: write a detailed blog of your bad experience and share it with the internet, encourage a mass boycott of the restaurant, and escalate the level of anger in the discussion until you have created an angry mob that is threatening the restaurant and everyone the restaurant does business with, with a massive negative publicity campaign unless they give in to whatever your demands are. That would be an inappropriate overreaction to the situation. Would you agree? Actually no. Review sites like Yelp has that as an entire business model. Heh. Your own analogy arrived at a conclusion that you don't agree with, so now you try to put a political spin on it and compare it to other things that aren't similar at all. Yelp is a site where people post public reviews of restaurants. There is no equivalent for SC2 streams. If you had a poor restaurant experience on Yelp, you post one negative review. You don't get to advertise your experience before posting and encourage a crowd of people to go on a negative publicity campaign with you, threatening to ruin the restaurant's public image unless your demands are met. You do not appear to understand (or you choose not to understand) that there is a difference between filing a complaint about your bad experience, and creating/participating in an angry mob. Let's go back to you saying that if it pissed you off that you go file a complaint. That's what people did. People filed a complaint, razed decided to take action. And why were the complaints sent to Razer, not Quantic? Answer: because of the angry mob mentality, demanding revenge against the guy they don't like, wanting to take whatever actions they could to cause harm. Contacting Razer is so out of line and is such clear evidence that these were the actions of an unthinking mob out to harm someone, instead of an appropriate response. Please stop ignoring the fact that a punishment-seeking angry mob was involved here. You act as if Warden, by himself and with no one else, sent a polite email complaining about inappropriate behavior, and that's all there was to it. What disliked conclusion? Filing complaints to companies is common. Review sites with one or many bad reviews for a company is common. Large numbers of people disliking someone and filing complaints, is common. It is a social practice, it is a business practice, and it isn't any different in any other industry. Your restaurant analogy arrived at the conclusion of "if you are served bad food, you should file a complaint." I said "I agree. That's a perfectly good system and I support that. What I do not support is using your story to generate an angry mob to complain along with you, threatening a negative publicity campaign unless your demands are met." You then backed away from your valid restaurant analogy and tried to compare the situation to Yelp reviews in order to make it look more positive, when in fact the situation is nothing like a review website. People complained about destiny, Razer believed them. Trying to silence people you disagree with by calling them a mob sidesteps the reality. They wrote to the department whose job was to read customer feedback. They actually web through the proper channels. I don't see how that is mob rule. How the fuck is creating an angry mob "going through the proper channels"? How am I "sidestepping reality" by calling an angry mob an angry mob? Are you serious? Let's go back to the restaurant analogy. I'm served some bad food at the restaurant, and get sick from it. I want you to tell me which of the following is "going through the proper channels". Option A - I call the restaurant, file a complaint and tell them the details, and choose to stop going to that restaurant in the future. Option B - I tell everyone I know about my bad restaurant experience. I do this as dramatically as possible, saying that they could have killed me, they could have poisoned who knows how many other people, and they should not be allowed to do business if their standards are so low that they're actually making people sick. I spread the story on the internet as well, until a sizeable crowd of people have been gathered together who are all angry about the restaurant's negligence and demand that something be done about it. Virtually no one in this crowd has gotten sick from this restaurant and many of them have never even been to it. Someone in the crowd yells out "we should get the chef fired!", and as that's the first option to take action about the problem that was thrown out, the mob is happy to go along with it. The mob heads down to the restaurant, demanding that the chef be fired immediately. The restaurant owner, afraid of the negative publicity (and especially afraid of how much worse it could get if he doesn't comply), fires the chef in order to resolve the situation quickly. I sincerely hope that you are not going to tell me that you see no difference between the two situations, and that you think Option B is an appropriate course of action. I don't understand this post. The only thing that happened was that customers filed a complaint. So you're actually in agreement with the letter writing side? Cool. Destiny was not to some people's liking, they filed a complaint, Razer agreed. I'm glad we're in agreement.
Option A is what should have happened, Option B is what did happen. If you didn't understand that then I don't know why you're posting in this thread.
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On May 09 2012 10:47 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 10:37 Dfgj wrote:On May 09 2012 10:36 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 10:32 zimz wrote:
So this thread is saying if your a fan, you should not speak negatively of any Esports people for the good of Esports.
Brush it aside and stay in the audience? Serisousely how will this ever be possible? You don't control 50,000 esports people. You can't force anyone to not complain, or to complain because its Esports. People will complain, there will always be someone out of 50,000 Esports community who doesn't like something. Its up to the Team and its Sponsors how to deal with it, because there is always complaints. Its up to the team and sponsor to decide how important which complaint/opinions are. The Esports community is telling you to silence your oppinions unless they approve first. The Esports community is becoming insanely controlling. Start your own business. Doesn't have to be big, cut hair or sell sodas or something. You'll learn very quickly that the customer base defines how you act and how you sell. And some customer bases are more pleasant than others. Yes. Customers who dislike racial slurs are evil people?
No, but people who dislike racial slurs so much that they'll go on witch hunts and deliver self-imposed punishment instead of acting like mature adults can be unpleasant to be around.
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List of misnomers/misuse of language on TeamLiquid:
- irony
- community
- control
- mechanics
- witch-hunt
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On May 09 2012 10:50 Sithelin123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 07:58 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:53 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:41 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:35 TheResidentEvil wrote:
no one person is greater than the community. if the community doesn't want people slandering and acting like teenagers then they will get weeded out just like the people that already have. Don't do anything to bring this on yourself and you don't have to worry about it. Your post makes a lot of assumptions. A) being the entire community and B) that the entire community messages these sponsors. It's a minority going out of their way lynching pro gamers via e-mailing sponsors. No one likes racist slurs, but not that many people actually give a shit when someone ragequits on stream and says one racist word. Not to the point they make it their life goal to make it as difficult as possible for that player to succeed in esports. I almost want to start sending the same empty threats these people do to tournament sponsors who hire casters I don't enjoy. On May 09 2012 07:41 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:31 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 07:24 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:13 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 06:54 Celestia wrote:On May 09 2012 06:11 Prplppleatr wrote:
Honestly, because of incidents such as these, where the community improperly reacts, I have decided to drop my dreams of being involved in esports and SC2. While I still enjoy watching certain games or tournaments, the community has really ruined this game for me and I will no longer support any part of SC2 with my money and I would not recommend any company get involved.
Ie, there are other indirect consequences other than losing sponsors....losing fans/community members/aspiring esports enthusiasts (I highly doubt I am the only one who has turned away from SC2 as a result of the community). How come the community ruined you the game? Oh the irony, overeacting about other people you think they are overeacting. Silly stuff. Sorry, let me clarify. I wanted to get very involved in esports, but because of situations such as these, where the community improperly reacts (IMO), I have decided that I would rather focus my efforts elsewhere as it is simply too risky. I.e. if a group of people, even if it is very small, do not like me, they can get me fired regardless of how my employer may feel. NOTE: I'm not arguing for or against any of the punishments, but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great. It is simply my personality, I am an all or nothing type of person when I set a goal. This was not the only thing, there are others, and if you truly would like to know, PM me. People wont like you if you act inappropriately. For example, like a biggot. If you want to get involved in e-sports, don't act like a biggot and you can avoid situations like this. Your missing my point. I do not believe that someone should be allowed to act inappropriately, "but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great." I.e. that the employers can not make the decision that they feel is appropriate and are forced into situations because people immediately go to sponsors, which dictates a specific reaction. ...if you read the post I noted that. Please, actually read the post in its entirety. Please, try actually stopping to analyze the situation.. The sponsor or team wont fire you if they don't think you acted inappropriately. Destiny and Orb aren't some innocent victims here, they acted inappropriately, and the sponsors also thought they were acting inappropriately. They wouldn't have made that decision if they didn't think Destiny was acting inappropriately. So the solution would be to just not act inappropriately and this wont happen to you if you get involved in e-sports, so it shouldn't effect you at all unless you wanted to act inappropriately on air while being sponsored. No matter what job you go in, there will always people higher up than your immediate superiors. If your immediate superior wont respond to your inappropriate actions, people can always go to your immediate superior's immediate superior. That's just how things work. They didn't think they were acting inappropriately, at least, I doubt they gave the slightest of shits -- until people slew baseless threats of boycott at them. Then at that point the decision is real easy. This is NOTHING like "the work place." You make racist/homophobic remarks at work, and your customers are offended. Your branch manager wont respond to their complaints, so they go to corporate, and corporate will ask your manager to fire you. Even if the branch manager isn't made aware of the customer's complaints beforehand, it will always be in the customer's power to go the branch manager's immediate superior. That's EXACTLY how the work place works no matter where you go. So just don't act inappropriately and this wont happen to you. ...Lol. This is absolutely NOTHING like the work place. These are athletes/celebrities who have themselves to represent to a fanbase/public as much as they represent a team and it's sponsors. Workplace comparisons are non-existent nor relevant in the slightest. A player says a slur that fan stops watching his stream. A rockstar says a slur that fan stops listening to his music. An employee for a company, who does not represent himself in any way in his position other than for future employment with another company, says a slur that customer stops buying the product from the brand that employee represents. It's VERY simple. And you know what happens to that employee that on behalf of the company spoke racial slurs to the public? Do I need to spell it out for you?
You've just taken everything I've said and disregarded all of it to take one line out of context. It's almost as if you intend to insult my intelligence.
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Lets take a fresh new approach to this thread.
On May 09 2012 11:04 v3chr0 wrote:
Also! wouldn't it help a ton to put a Disclaimer on your stream? Anything I do/say is representative of myself only, and/or I may use offensive language, none of it is true, I have a bad habit im trying to kick, etc. I know that if Esports went to T.V, you'd see something like this before the show starts.
This idea here has merit.
Take this as an analogy:
The prohibition in america/canada in the 1930s (Wiki Link for explanation) limited the use of alcohol. The wiki page further describes prohibition put in place because "Drink itself was not looked upon as culpable, any more than food deserved blame for the sin of gluttony. Excess was a personal indiscretion."
How does this reflect Esports? We look at Discrimination, foul language and Poor professionalism in a similar way: it is frowned upon in society. Take a moment to see similar problems with Tobbacco, Marijuana and recreational drugs and see how they are handled today. You might even have taken a guess at what i'm about to suggest 
My stance on the matter is that free speech, racism and professionalism that most are expected in E-Sports can co-exist, provided that a level of standards can be set and abided by each individual working in the industry.
What I find truly confusing is that WE ALREADY HAVE STANDARDS THAT SPONSORS CAN GET BEHIND:
TV Parential Guidelines
ESRB
Motion Picture Association of America
Your reigon and ratings may vary, but the point is, we have a (hefty few) book of standards to practise with, yet noone in this SC2 ESPORTS community has taken the time to go ahead and implement them. Not even Blizzard (past singleplayer).
To clarify, I do NOT want to censor streams/games. I only wish to implement a system where a streamer like  Destiny can stream, but have disclaimers that he runs a stream that is rated "adults only" by ESRB for its extreme language. We could even see a system where streamed games are later edited and censored for language to attain a higher rating on a standard that could be set.
I went ahead and skipped the argument of wether a team should suffer for the actions of an individual, because of the fact that now a team could go ahead and start selecting players that market their streams to specific audiences. I certainly wouldn't mind hearing about Quantic's 18+ Destiny Stream, over Quantic Destiny's Stream. It even looks better to a customer, because now the customer can differentiate between a streamer/cast (product) from another.
Will this stop the witch hunting? It deflates the pro witch hunt argument regarding "my child is watching that stream!" What this will do is allow sponsors to take a more concrete stance when it comes to complaints in the mail. They've done their due diligence, and see that a complaining customer is just blowing hot air instead of a legitimate complaint. This will protect the players and casters we care about, that grow this community.
Thats my vision of E-Sports. If TeamLiquid gave a damn, they'd start implementing something similar to their live streams, vods and casted games too. I might even find some time after work tommorrow to post it in their Website feedback forum.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
On May 09 2012 12:04 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
List of misnomers/misuse of language on TeamLiquid:
- irony
- community
- control
- mechanics
- witch-hunt
- metagame
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On May 09 2012 11:07 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day. It doesn't need a cleanup, the internet is a huge place. If people like a particular kind of content, they can patronize that content they like. They don't need to appoint themselves Commissioner Gordon and shine the Razer logo into the sky every time they find content they disagree with. For instance, Razer has sponsored a ton of different things besides Quantic which Destiny was a small part of. If someone likes what Razer is doing, he can tell them and also buy their stuff. If we all acted in this way of telling sponsors what NOT to do, there wouldn't be sponsors. (This isn't a slippery slope, I'm saying that if you want to keep the right to whine to sponsors on a whim, then you can't be surprised if everyone else exercises the same right, and they ruin the sponsorship of the things you like to watch.) This is contingent on the fact that the real cause of Destiny leaving was the apparent uproar and the trouble it caused for Razer and Quantic, not the actual words, which by now people at Razer would have noticed just by clicking through streams here. They ought to have done something earlier if the issue for Razer was the words rather than the existence of a shitstorm. You don't have to stop eating Pringles just because they happen to sponsor some boxing match and you think that's a brutal, inhumane sport, for instance. And it wouldn't make much sense if you flooded them with angry mail if you didn't really have the money to buy Pringles to begin with, because you're a non-entity to them. Pretend boxing is Destiny and Pringles is Razer, does this make sense?
Fair enough. Perhaps I should've added a caveat. If E-Sport is to get big, then it needs a cleanup. When was the last time you heard a commentator of a physical sport say 'rape'. Compare that with SC casters. There's a reason for this difference.
I think you give the sponsors both too much and too little credit. Too much credit in the respect that they actually knew intimate details of the players on Quantic. Definitely too much if you think they watched any of the streams. Too little in respect that you think sponsors will cave into any ol' flash mob complaining about random issue X. (I have high confidence nothing I watch will lose sponsorship. The number of people that complain about the things I like must be so small as to not register on sponsors radar. Of course I don't watch racist stuff, so yeah)
Your analogy is valid, but I think you're missing a crucial point. Even if I decide to not watch boxing, and don't buy Pringles, them sponsoring a boxing match still can have effects on me or effects on the community which I find undesirable - for example encouraging more people to take up boxing. In which case, I think I'm within my rights to complain.
Live and let live is fine, but wider effects on the community cannot be ignored. If someone, like Destiny, is showing the next generation of gamers that using racist language is ok, then as a member of this community, that's something I'm concerned about. If his sponsorship makes this easier for him to do so, then I think contacting the sponsor is a justifiable action, even if I never have or never will buy a Razer product.
And, Razer are free to completely ignore me, because as a non-customer they won't lose any money from me at all. What is unclear is whether Razer made a business call, or a moral call. I think moral and that the mass emailing was simply making them aware of the issue.
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On May 09 2012 11:22 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 09:29 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 09:08 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day. The point is, the community shouldn't be targeting any terms at all. I'm sure someone with a mentally challenged child thinks "retarded" is more offensive than "gook". If this silly community really must take these issues into their own hands than be consistent about it or the community will look even worse than it already does. Are you defending your right to say gook by saying its silly to think retarded is offensive? Equating another social group with being weaker or less than another social group is wrong. Yes, that includes retard, bitch, gyp, pollack, Limey, etc... The reason they are bad is not because they are offensive--being offensive has no bearing on this. The reason they are wrong is because you are equating a race or class or sex or whatever as being an insult. If I was upset a someone, I wouldn't call him smart and beautiful because I find those terms uplifting. I would instead call that person negative descriptors like shit, fucker, asshole. But racists and bigots see no difference between calling someone Asian (gook) and calling that same person an idiot. To racists, idiotic and Asian are synonyms. As is black (nigger) and dangerous. As is woman (bitch) and weak. To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male. We're not asking for people to stop being offensive, we're asking them to stop thinking that calling others a race you dislike is a legitimate insult. What is legitimate about insulting people in the first place? Bullies insult kids into committing *suicide* at school; racial slurs are really just a broader type of insult; there is nothing that makes this particularly worse than other insults by definition. It just happens to (occasionally) share some brutal history as with the "n-word"; in other cases its simply a derogatory expression for a particular race (i.e. "gook"). What about other broad insults that target nerds or jocks, or blondes? Its just one different type of insult in a range of insults. All of them are wrong; are you arguing that one is more wrong than the other? That it is so hurtful to call someone a gook, that it should be an offense that gets people kicked off a team - but that going on a personal tirade against someone is okay because it can not be as offensive as a racial slur? You seem to be suggesting this, as you target racial slurs in particular as being wrong, but nothing else. I would be somewhat okay (relatively speaking) if you said, we should work on one thing at a time. And our focus for now is racial slurs. If you said so in an earlier comment I apologize as I only read your most recent one. Because some personal insults can be really brutal, and affect people on a deeper level than an off-handed racial slur uttered in a moment of rage. The opposite is true as well of course, depending on context and the individual being insulted. So basically I don't think you can really say one is more harmful than the other in general. Both are wrong, to different degrees, depending on the situation. Also logically speaking I think you are 100% right about using a racial slur to insult people - I have the same conclusion about people using "gay" as a term that is synonymous with "bad" or "lame", and I hope it stops one day. But the one caveat is I would never say any word is definitively bad all the time (we are having a healthy discussion about the word "nigger" among other slurs - we can both write these words in full, but no one is offended because they understand the context). Context always matters; and I think if someone is known for raging and has anger-management issues, there should be some understanding if they do use a racial slur to express their rage. But if they continue to make derogatory remarks and fail to improve, then their dismissal is justified.
I mostly don't believe in policing personalities. I people are dicks--let them be dicks.
My main problem is racism being seen as only real if it is big like genocide or cross burnings or breaking of labor laws. Racism happens everyday in seemingly harmless fashions. These racial tensions reinforce that at some level, the big stuff is okay.
My other big problem is individual freedom. Apparently destiny is free to be racist, but viewers aren't free to be disappointed customers. For some reason people think its wrong that people disagree with destiny, but that it's right to disagree with members of the sc2 viewership. Both have the right to do what they did. It got destiny fired--then all of a sudden whiners came out to complain about the Internet having reprecussions.
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On May 09 2012 14:08 lorkac wrote:
My other big problem is individual freedom. Apparently destiny is free to be racist, but viewers aren't free to be disappointed customers. For some reason people think its wrong that people disagree with destiny, but that it's right to disagree with members of the sc2 viewership. Both have the right to do what they did. It got destiny fired--then all of a sudden whiners came out to complain about the Internet having reprecussions.
You're free to be disapprove of the content of Destiny's stream.
You're also free to take it upon yourself to do all you can legally do to harm his pro gaming career. But it's kind of a dick move.
That's all there is to it.
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To start, I wish to say that I don't believe racial slurs or inappropriate actions should be tolerated.
I don't know what things are like in Canada but in 'Merica we believe in freedom, just ask Stephano.
Jk, people should be good and play nice. Professionals ought to act like professionals, if you want to be "free" to say what you want, then don't accept any sponsorships. As far as emailing sponsors I agree with a lot of this.
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Let's take two athletes as examples: Tiger Woods and John McEnroe.
Tiger Woods didn't say anything bad, but he got his sponsors to leave him; that was because he was doing something that was, in all absolute terms, unethical. That something was called infidelity. He was also suspended from several magazines as a writer, as well as forced to stop playing golf for quite some time.
John McEnroe, during his tennis career, managed to insult literally everyone, from officials to his opponents to even the audience, calling them "...the pits of the world! Vultures! Trash!"
But none of them had their careers stripped from them. At most, they were penalized and temporarily suspended. In Woods' extreme case, his sponsors withdrew support. The communities of their respective sports called them out.
But they didn't have their careers ruined, now did they? They were engaging in some of the worst possible BM in any sport; they didn't get booted out for it. They were professionals; their sports are "mainstream" or widely accepted.
If e-sports is a professional sport, if it is to be "mainstream" or widely accepted, why are our actions as a community far different from the established professional sports; the sports whose positions we also want our sport to attain?
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Destiny fanboys have struck again. 
I'm not surprised at all considering destiny's streams cater to 12 years old kids and man children. Any matured human being that has had any experience in the real world or actually had a social life would know better that such behaviors are not accepted in any professional environment especially if you are representing a company.
Get real. This isn't witch-hunt to begin with. Destiny has been throwing racial slurs around since he started streaming. The fact that someone as asinine and immature as Destiny had sponsors to begin with shows how amateurish this scene is. I can live with Destiny being a mediocre diamond level player or his asinine behavior but you cross the line when you start throwing racial slurs.
Quit acting like drama queens. This was a normal procedure and the one blowing out of proportions are the butthurt destiny fanboys. A lot of the people have moved on but it’s the destiny apologists that continue to create new threads and make a big fuss about this incident. This isn’t killing E-Sports and there is no previous example where sponsors pulled off the whole scene because of one spoiled apple. We’ll be fine without Destiny and his little groupie followers that is threatening us to leave the scene because they can’t say niggers, gooks, chinks, spics, and beaners without facing any consequence.
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So anyone that doesn't support the witch hunting, pitchfork-raising or whatever you want to call it is a Destiny supporter? Get real too.
I'm no Destiny fan; I've watched his stream twice, tops, and no longer than one game each time. What I fear is the fact that this is becoming more and more prevalent recently, and teams are getting run over in the process. This wasn't the case in BW; this isn't the case in Korea, where pro StarCraft was born.
I agree that people using offensive language should face consequences, but stripping them of careers isn't right. Suspending them, fining them, that's the professional thing to do; that's what the professional sports are doing. What are we really aiming for here? Do we want e-sports to reach the level of the mainstream sports or not?
And are you implying that tennis, boxing, MMA, and virtually every other sport isn't a "professional environment" because there, when someone uses offensive language, they don't raise pitchforks like what our community is doing? Because as far as I know, they aren't booting players because of offensive language (refer to my previous post).
Edit: Refer to the recent Michael Llodra issue in tennis. He called a fan of his opponent a "fucking Chinese." He didn't get booted; he got fined and temporarily suspended. You're implying that by not booting him or stripping him of sponsors (like you're clearly proposing as the appropriate consequence for that kind of behavior), tennis is unprofessional, that the only professional way of going about such issues is instabooting?
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EPT
