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To put something productive in this thread, as I should have just done before (sorry). My stance is summed up in OP: 2) E-mailing sponsors without giving the team a chance to respond is a knee-jerk reaction in an attempt to force a reaction, and should only be used as a last resort option.
SO, to follow up:
+ Show Spoiler +If this is your stance, I have a few follow-up responses for you:
If I notice inappropriate behavior, and I wish to report it, who should I go to first? What should be my chain of events, before I have to talk to a sponsor.
I believe that one should first go to the team and player, letting them know why you feel offended and what exactly they did to offend you. Then, if the player does not apologize and/or team does not take the appropriate reaction, in your opinion obviously, go to the sponsors or parent organization. Because it is the TEAM, not just the player, which has not responded to the situation accordingly and when sponsors are contacted, it is the TEAM that suffers, not just the player who acted inappropriately.
PS. I do not believe the sponsoring body is a viable solution, so i did not mention it.
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On May 09 2012 08:05 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 07:58 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:53 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:41 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:35 TheResidentEvil wrote:
no one person is greater than the community. if the community doesn't want people slandering and acting like teenagers then they will get weeded out just like the people that already have. Don't do anything to bring this on yourself and you don't have to worry about it. Your post makes a lot of assumptions. A) being the entire community and B) that the entire community messages these sponsors. It's a minority going out of their way lynching pro gamers via e-mailing sponsors. No one likes racist slurs, but not that many people actually give a shit when someone ragequits on stream and says one racist word. Not to the point they make it their life goal to make it as difficult as possible for that player to succeed in esports. I almost want to start sending the same empty threats these people do to tournament sponsors who hire casters I don't enjoy. On May 09 2012 07:41 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:31 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 07:24 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:13 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 06:54 Celestia wrote:On May 09 2012 06:11 Prplppleatr wrote:
Honestly, because of incidents such as these, where the community improperly reacts, I have decided to drop my dreams of being involved in esports and SC2. While I still enjoy watching certain games or tournaments, the community has really ruined this game for me and I will no longer support any part of SC2 with my money and I would not recommend any company get involved.
Ie, there are other indirect consequences other than losing sponsors....losing fans/community members/aspiring esports enthusiasts (I highly doubt I am the only one who has turned away from SC2 as a result of the community). How come the community ruined you the game? Oh the irony, overeacting about other people you think they are overeacting. Silly stuff. Sorry, let me clarify. I wanted to get very involved in esports, but because of situations such as these, where the community improperly reacts (IMO), I have decided that I would rather focus my efforts elsewhere as it is simply too risky. I.e. if a group of people, even if it is very small, do not like me, they can get me fired regardless of how my employer may feel. NOTE: I'm not arguing for or against any of the punishments, but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great. It is simply my personality, I am an all or nothing type of person when I set a goal. This was not the only thing, there are others, and if you truly would like to know, PM me. People wont like you if you act inappropriately. For example, like a biggot. If you want to get involved in e-sports, don't act like a biggot and you can avoid situations like this. Your missing my point. I do not believe that someone should be allowed to act inappropriately, "but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great." I.e. that the employers can not make the decision that they feel is appropriate and are forced into situations because people immediately go to sponsors, which dictates a specific reaction. ...if you read the post I noted that. Please, actually read the post in its entirety. Please, try actually stopping to analyze the situation.. The sponsor or team wont fire you if they don't think you acted inappropriately. Destiny and Orb aren't some innocent victims here, they acted inappropriately, and the sponsors also thought they were acting inappropriately. They wouldn't have made that decision if they didn't think Destiny was acting inappropriately. So the solution would be to just not act inappropriately and this wont happen to you if you get involved in e-sports, so it shouldn't effect you at all unless you wanted to act inappropriately on air while being sponsored. No matter what job you go in, there will always people higher up than your immediate superiors. If your immediate superior wont respond to your inappropriate actions, people can always go to your immediate superior's immediate superior. That's just how things work. They didn't think they were acting inappropriately, at least, I doubt they gave the slightest of shits -- until people slew baseless threats of boycott at them. Then at that point the decision is real easy. This is NOTHING like "the work place." You make racist/homophobic remarks at work, and your customers are offended. Your branch manager wont respond to their complaints, so they go to corporate, and corporate will ask your manager to fire you. Even if the branch manager isn't made aware of the customer's complaints beforehand, it will always be in the customer's power to go the branch manager's immediate superior. That's EXACTLY how the work place works no matter where you go. So just don't act inappropriately and this wont happen to you. ...Lol. This is absolutely NOTHING like the work place. These are athletes/celebrities who have themselves to represent to a fanbase/public as much as they represent a team and it's sponsors. Workplace comparisons are non-existent nor relevant in the slightest. An employee for a company says a slur that customer stops buying the product. A player says a slur that fan stops watching his stream. It's pretty simple. Customer can always do more than stop buying a product, and they have. They can and will go to the manager or corporate, and acting like this never happens is just ignorance. The company doesn't want to look like it's condoning racism/homophobia, and thus, will deal with the liability in whatever way they think fit, and that includes firing it. If the athlete's team, or whatever company a celebrity has a contract with, feels like their client is being a greater liability than asset, they will get rid of him/her. Celebrities aren't immune, look at Charlie Sheen for example. I don't follow sports, but there are also probably plenty of sport examples. It's pretty simple.
Keep throwing corporate comparisons. I guess Destiny wasn't actually streaming but working at a desk. Too hilarious.
Ton of sports examples where a player offends people and isn't immediately removed from the team due to sponsors, because he makes money from his performance. Michael Vick is one of the only exclusions that immediately comes to mind and he broke a law and had to serve time. Pretty sure a racial slur (saying one on the internet much less different than IRL) might get you a punch to the face, but probably not a penny in fines or a day in jail.
Charlie Sheen had a drug problem and ended up costing everyone millions because of how many times he went to rehab/wanted to quit, then ultimately decided to go on a rampage and destroy his employer's reputation, which sounds like a pretty bad idea. Charlie Sheen still travels around the world doing shows and making tons of money. Pretty horrible comparison.
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On May 09 2012 07:58 Tyrant0 wrote:
...Lol. This is absolutely NOTHING like the work place. These are athletes/celebrities who have themselves to represent to a fanbase/public as much as they represent a team and it's sponsors. Workplace comparisons are non-existent nor relevant in the slightest. A player says a slur that fan stops watching his stream. A rockstar says a slur that fan stops listening to his music. An employee for a company, who does not represent himself in any way in his position other than for future employment with another company, says a slur that customer stops buying the product from the brand that employee represents. It's VERY simple.
You are VERY wrong.
There are huge consequences for Celebreties/Athletes using racial slurs. Look up cases like Luis suarez or Mel gibson. Its certainly not as simple as you make it out to be. And dont assume everyone acts and think the same way you do.
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On May 09 2012 08:17 Raavi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 07:58 Tyrant0 wrote:
...Lol. This is absolutely NOTHING like the work place. These are athletes/celebrities who have themselves to represent to a fanbase/public as much as they represent a team and it's sponsors. Workplace comparisons are non-existent nor relevant in the slightest. A player says a slur that fan stops watching his stream. A rockstar says a slur that fan stops listening to his music. An employee for a company, who does not represent himself in any way in his position other than for future employment with another company, says a slur that customer stops buying the product from the brand that employee represents. It's VERY simple. You are VERY wrong. There are huge consequences for Celebreties/Athletes using racial slurs. Look up cases like Luis suarez or Mel gibson. Its certainly not as simple as you make it out to be. And dont assume everyone acts and think the same way you do.
Monumental difference between saying a racial slur on the internet, and having yourself recorded on what must be hours of long tangents on how much you disregard blacks/jews. Besides, I'm not even saying there aren't repercussions in different cases. I'm dispelling this stupid corporate comparison where players/celebrities represent their employer in it's entirety while apparently working a desk job and have no representation of themselves in their line of work.
It'd probably help you to read back a few posts for context instead of butting into one of my quotes.
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On May 09 2012 08:11 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 08:05 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:58 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:53 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:41 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:35 TheResidentEvil wrote:
no one person is greater than the community. if the community doesn't want people slandering and acting like teenagers then they will get weeded out just like the people that already have. Don't do anything to bring this on yourself and you don't have to worry about it. Your post makes a lot of assumptions. A) being the entire community and B) that the entire community messages these sponsors. It's a minority going out of their way lynching pro gamers via e-mailing sponsors. No one likes racist slurs, but not that many people actually give a shit when someone ragequits on stream and says one racist word. Not to the point they make it their life goal to make it as difficult as possible for that player to succeed in esports. I almost want to start sending the same empty threats these people do to tournament sponsors who hire casters I don't enjoy. On May 09 2012 07:41 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:31 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 07:24 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:13 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 06:54 Celestia wrote:
[quote]
How come the community ruined you the game? Oh the irony, overeacting about other people you think they are overeacting. Silly stuff. Sorry, let me clarify. I wanted to get very involved in esports, but because of situations such as these, where the community improperly reacts (IMO), I have decided that I would rather focus my efforts elsewhere as it is simply too risky. I.e. if a group of people, even if it is very small, do not like me, they can get me fired regardless of how my employer may feel. NOTE: I'm not arguing for or against any of the punishments, but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great. It is simply my personality, I am an all or nothing type of person when I set a goal. This was not the only thing, there are others, and if you truly would like to know, PM me. People wont like you if you act inappropriately. For example, like a biggot. If you want to get involved in e-sports, don't act like a biggot and you can avoid situations like this. Your missing my point. I do not believe that someone should be allowed to act inappropriately, "but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great." I.e. that the employers can not make the decision that they feel is appropriate and are forced into situations because people immediately go to sponsors, which dictates a specific reaction. ...if you read the post I noted that. Please, actually read the post in its entirety. Please, try actually stopping to analyze the situation.. The sponsor or team wont fire you if they don't think you acted inappropriately. Destiny and Orb aren't some innocent victims here, they acted inappropriately, and the sponsors also thought they were acting inappropriately. They wouldn't have made that decision if they didn't think Destiny was acting inappropriately. So the solution would be to just not act inappropriately and this wont happen to you if you get involved in e-sports, so it shouldn't effect you at all unless you wanted to act inappropriately on air while being sponsored. No matter what job you go in, there will always people higher up than your immediate superiors. If your immediate superior wont respond to your inappropriate actions, people can always go to your immediate superior's immediate superior. That's just how things work. They didn't think they were acting inappropriately, at least, I doubt they gave the slightest of shits -- until people slew baseless threats of boycott at them. Then at that point the decision is real easy. This is NOTHING like "the work place." You make racist/homophobic remarks at work, and your customers are offended. Your branch manager wont respond to their complaints, so they go to corporate, and corporate will ask your manager to fire you. Even if the branch manager isn't made aware of the customer's complaints beforehand, it will always be in the customer's power to go the branch manager's immediate superior. That's EXACTLY how the work place works no matter where you go. So just don't act inappropriately and this wont happen to you. ...Lol. This is absolutely NOTHING like the work place. These are athletes/celebrities who have themselves to represent to a fanbase/public as much as they represent a team and it's sponsors. Workplace comparisons are non-existent nor relevant in the slightest. An employee for a company says a slur that customer stops buying the product. A player says a slur that fan stops watching his stream. It's pretty simple. Customer can always do more than stop buying a product, and they have. They can and will go to the manager or corporate, and acting like this never happens is just ignorance. The company doesn't want to look like it's condoning racism/homophobia, and thus, will deal with the liability in whatever way they think fit, and that includes firing it. If the athlete's team, or whatever company a celebrity has a contract with, feels like their client is being a greater liability than asset, they will get rid of him/her. Celebrities aren't immune, look at Charlie Sheen for example. I don't follow sports, but there are also probably plenty of sport examples. It's pretty simple. Keep throwing corporate comparisons. I guess Destiny wasn't actually streaming but working at a desk. Too hilarious. Ton of sports examples where a player offends people and isn't immediately removed from the team due to sponsors, because he makes money from his performance. Michael Vick is one of the only exclusions that immediately comes to mind and he broke a law and had to serve time. Pretty sure a racial slur (saying one on the internet much less different than IRL) might get you a punch to the face, but probably not a penny in fines or a day in jail. Charlie Sheen had a drug problem and ended up costing everyone millions because of how many times he went to rehab/wanted to quit, then ultimately decided to go on a rampage and destroy his employer's reputation, which sounds like a pretty bad idea. Charlie Sheen still travels around the world doing shows and making tons of money. Pretty horrible comparison.
Charlie Sheen got fired. His employer wanted nothing to do with him because of his actions, and kicked his ass to the curb. Sure, he still does ok for himself, but that doesn't mean he wasn't fired.
Destiny got fired. His employer wanted nothing to do with him because of his actions, and kicked his ass to the curb. Sure, he can still stream and make money, but that doesn't mean he wasn't fired.
Yes, staggaring differences abound.
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for people arguing from the sponsor/team/business p.o.v. for whatever reason: it's the players who draw intensely negative reactions from the community that are a liability and a risk—not the community. a team or sponsoring interest is going to disassociate from players that poorly represent it not because their hand is forced by the community's negative feedback but because that player is already hurting that team's image enough to generate negative feedback from the community.
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On May 09 2012 08:27 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 08:11 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 08:05 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:58 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:53 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:41 Tyrant0 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:35 TheResidentEvil wrote:
no one person is greater than the community. if the community doesn't want people slandering and acting like teenagers then they will get weeded out just like the people that already have. Don't do anything to bring this on yourself and you don't have to worry about it. Your post makes a lot of assumptions. A) being the entire community and B) that the entire community messages these sponsors. It's a minority going out of their way lynching pro gamers via e-mailing sponsors. No one likes racist slurs, but not that many people actually give a shit when someone ragequits on stream and says one racist word. Not to the point they make it their life goal to make it as difficult as possible for that player to succeed in esports. I almost want to start sending the same empty threats these people do to tournament sponsors who hire casters I don't enjoy. On May 09 2012 07:41 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:31 Prplppleatr wrote:On May 09 2012 07:24 dabom88 wrote:On May 09 2012 07:13 Prplppleatr wrote:
[quote]
Sorry, let me clarify. I wanted to get very involved in esports, but because of situations such as these, where the community improperly reacts (IMO), I have decided that I would rather focus my efforts elsewhere as it is simply too risky. I.e. if a group of people, even if it is very small, do not like me, they can get me fired regardless of how my employer may feel.
NOTE: I'm not arguing for or against any of the punishments, but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great.
It is simply my personality, I am an all or nothing type of person when I set a goal. This was not the only thing, there are others, and if you truly would like to know, PM me. People wont like you if you act inappropriately. For example, like a biggot. If you want to get involved in e-sports, don't act like a biggot and you can avoid situations like this. Your missing my point. I do not believe that someone should be allowed to act inappropriately, "but the idea that my employer can be forced into that type of situation, is simply unappealing to me and likely many others (assumption). So the risk of having all my efforts go to waste is too great." I.e. that the employers can not make the decision that they feel is appropriate and are forced into situations because people immediately go to sponsors, which dictates a specific reaction. ...if you read the post I noted that. Please, actually read the post in its entirety. Please, try actually stopping to analyze the situation.. The sponsor or team wont fire you if they don't think you acted inappropriately. Destiny and Orb aren't some innocent victims here, they acted inappropriately, and the sponsors also thought they were acting inappropriately. They wouldn't have made that decision if they didn't think Destiny was acting inappropriately. So the solution would be to just not act inappropriately and this wont happen to you if you get involved in e-sports, so it shouldn't effect you at all unless you wanted to act inappropriately on air while being sponsored. No matter what job you go in, there will always people higher up than your immediate superiors. If your immediate superior wont respond to your inappropriate actions, people can always go to your immediate superior's immediate superior. That's just how things work. They didn't think they were acting inappropriately, at least, I doubt they gave the slightest of shits -- until people slew baseless threats of boycott at them. Then at that point the decision is real easy. This is NOTHING like "the work place." You make racist/homophobic remarks at work, and your customers are offended. Your branch manager wont respond to their complaints, so they go to corporate, and corporate will ask your manager to fire you. Even if the branch manager isn't made aware of the customer's complaints beforehand, it will always be in the customer's power to go the branch manager's immediate superior. That's EXACTLY how the work place works no matter where you go. So just don't act inappropriately and this wont happen to you. ...Lol. This is absolutely NOTHING like the work place. These are athletes/celebrities who have themselves to represent to a fanbase/public as much as they represent a team and it's sponsors. Workplace comparisons are non-existent nor relevant in the slightest. An employee for a company says a slur that customer stops buying the product. A player says a slur that fan stops watching his stream. It's pretty simple. Customer can always do more than stop buying a product, and they have. They can and will go to the manager or corporate, and acting like this never happens is just ignorance. The company doesn't want to look like it's condoning racism/homophobia, and thus, will deal with the liability in whatever way they think fit, and that includes firing it. If the athlete's team, or whatever company a celebrity has a contract with, feels like their client is being a greater liability than asset, they will get rid of him/her. Celebrities aren't immune, look at Charlie Sheen for example. I don't follow sports, but there are also probably plenty of sport examples. It's pretty simple. Keep throwing corporate comparisons. I guess Destiny wasn't actually streaming but working at a desk. Too hilarious. Ton of sports examples where a player offends people and isn't immediately removed from the team due to sponsors, because he makes money from his performance. Michael Vick is one of the only exclusions that immediately comes to mind and he broke a law and had to serve time. Pretty sure a racial slur (saying one on the internet much less different than IRL) might get you a punch to the face, but probably not a penny in fines or a day in jail. Charlie Sheen had a drug problem and ended up costing everyone millions because of how many times he went to rehab/wanted to quit, then ultimately decided to go on a rampage and destroy his employer's reputation, which sounds like a pretty bad idea. Charlie Sheen still travels around the world doing shows and making tons of money. Pretty horrible comparison. Charlie Sheen got fired. His employer wanted nothing to do with him because of his actions, and kicked his ass to the curb. Sure, he still does ok for himself, but that doesn't mean he wasn't fired. Destiny got fired. His employer wanted nothing to do with him because of his actions, and kicked his ass to the curb. Sure, he can still stream and make money, but that doesn't mean he wasn't fired. Yes, staggaring differences abound.
Refusal/inability to continue working the show cause of drugs/rehab. Insulting your employer in public interviews. Tens of millions of dollars lost in revenue cause of one massively irresponsible and self-centered actor.
One racial slur on the internet -- absolutely nothing happens; not even for months in regards to the orb case UNTIL a couple hundred angry reddit posters decide to spam a sponsor with threats.
But, do proceed with the generalizations.
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I'm honestly surprised at how so many people (including 'professionals') are looking down on 'witch-hunters' or those who complain to sponsors instead of looking to police themselves.
Sometimes the possible repercussions of having a player on your team and part of that sponsorship is very clear.
If you want this to be an eSport then treat it like one. We're never going to be this happy small community where we can all as one collective decide how things are handled and when people should feel offended enough to take a certain step in action.
Teams need to be mindful of their players and the attention that they get. You need to decide if the player is popular enough to get away with a scandal or if they bring too much negative attention to your community.
I'm sorry but it's really childish to point fingers at 'mobs' or 'masses' when they stood up and took action for something. If you feel that it could potentially be harmful to eSports then you need to be more careful about the image that is being projected from the players.
Seriously. Listen to yourself when you say "Don't go to sponsors about a player of poor sportsmanship who harrasses others."
You're trying to cover something up and be unethical about the situation. If you don't police yourselves others will for you.
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Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact.
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On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact.
Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day.
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On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day.
The point is, the community shouldn't be targeting any terms at all. I'm sure someone with a mentally challenged child thinks "retarded" is more offensive than "gook". If this silly community really must take these issues into their own hands than be consistent about it or the community will look even worse than it already does.
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On May 09 2012 09:08 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day. The point is, the community shouldn't be targeting any terms at all. I'm sure someone with a mentally challenged child thinks "retarded" is more offensive than "gook". If this silly community really must take these issues into their own hands than be consistent about it or the community will look even worse than it already does.
Are you defending your right to say gook by saying its silly to think retarded is offensive?
Equating another social group with being weaker or less than another social group is wrong. Yes, that includes retard, bitch, gyp, pollack, Limey, etc...
The reason they are bad is not because they are offensive--being offensive has no bearing on this. The reason they are wrong is because you are equating a race or class or sex or whatever as being an insult. If I was upset a someone, I wouldn't call him smart and beautiful because I find those terms uplifting. I would instead call that person negative descriptors like shit, fucker, asshole. But racists and bigots see no difference between calling someone Asian (gook) and calling that same person an idiot. To racists, idiotic and Asian are synonyms. As is black (nigger) and dangerous. As is woman (bitch) and weak. To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male.
We're not asking for people to stop being offensive, we're asking them to stop thinking that calling others a race you dislike is a legitimate insult.
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John McCain said he hates the gooks and he almost became president
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On May 09 2012 09:29 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 09:08 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day. The point is, the community shouldn't be targeting any terms at all. I'm sure someone with a mentally challenged child thinks "retarded" is more offensive than "gook". If this silly community really must take these issues into their own hands than be consistent about it or the community will look even worse than it already does. Are you defending your right to say gook by saying its silly to think retarded is offensive? Equating another social group with being weaker or less than another social group is wrong. Yes, that includes retard, bitch, gyp, pollack, Limey, etc... The reason they are bad is not because they are offensive--being offensive has no bearing on this. The reason they are wrong is because you are equating a race or class or sex or whatever as being an insult. If I was upset a someone, I wouldn't call him smart and beautiful because I find those terms uplifting. I would instead call that person negative descriptors like shit, fucker, asshole. But racists and bigots see no difference between calling someone Asian (gook) and calling that same person an idiot. To racists, idiotic and Asian are synonyms. As is black (nigger) and dangerous. As is woman (bitch) and weak. To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male. We're not asking for people to stop being offensive, we're asking them to stop thinking that calling others a race you dislike is a legitimate insult.
Not at all, I'm saying they're both offensive and shouldn't be said. All I'm saying is that if you're going to punish someone for saying "gook" you would also have to punish them for saying "retarded". Whether you think Destiny or anyone else equates the word "gook" with "idiot" holds no bearing because you can't punish them based on your opinion. The only thing they can be punished for is saying or typing the word, you can't punish them for what they meant by it because no one knows what they meant by it.
"To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male." Please think before you insinuate that all racists are white males....
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On May 09 2012 09:42 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 09:29 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 09:08 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 09 2012 09:02 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 09 2012 08:55 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Nothing will change because the people of the community won't change, it's pretty simple. There will always be people that think saying something offensive for whatever reason is so out of line that they must take it into their own hands to punish the individual saying the offensive things.
Yes, racism is, of course, wrong. However, saying words like rape, retarded, and many others words that get overlooked are also in no way acceptable. These "witch-hunts" are obviously out of line but any punishment for saying or typing racial slurs MUST be applicable to streamers saying "retarded" or "rape" or any word that could be highly offensive to a group of people.
It would be lovely if punishment would only be determined by the team of the players and it would be lovely if the punishments of players were applicable to all these highly offensive words but when it comes down to it, the average person is pretty stupid and not capable of making logical decisions. So... I don't see things really changing unless an intelligent person who is very popular cares enough to make an impact. Gaming culture needs a huge cleanup with regard to the language it finds acceptable. I agree that 'rape' and 'retarded' are words that should also have consequences for use. Especially by casters. There's really no reason you need these in your casting vocabulary. Change is hard to do though. Targeting race related terms is a good place to get started because they are the 'most' wrong IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day. The point is, the community shouldn't be targeting any terms at all. I'm sure someone with a mentally challenged child thinks "retarded" is more offensive than "gook". If this silly community really must take these issues into their own hands than be consistent about it or the community will look even worse than it already does. Are you defending your right to say gook by saying its silly to think retarded is offensive? Equating another social group with being weaker or less than another social group is wrong. Yes, that includes retard, bitch, gyp, pollack, Limey, etc... The reason they are bad is not because they are offensive--being offensive has no bearing on this. The reason they are wrong is because you are equating a race or class or sex or whatever as being an insult. If I was upset a someone, I wouldn't call him smart and beautiful because I find those terms uplifting. I would instead call that person negative descriptors like shit, fucker, asshole. But racists and bigots see no difference between calling someone Asian (gook) and calling that same person an idiot. To racists, idiotic and Asian are synonyms. As is black (nigger) and dangerous. As is woman (bitch) and weak. To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male. We're not asking for people to stop being offensive, we're asking them to stop thinking that calling others a race you dislike is a legitimate insult. Not at all, I'm saying they're both offensive and shouldn't be said. All I'm saying is that if you're going to punish someone for saying "gook" you would also have to punish them for saying "retarded". Whether you think Destiny or anyone else equates the word "gook" with "idiot" holds no bearing because you can't punish them based on your opinion. The only thing they can be punished for is saying or typing the word, you can't punish them for what they meant by it because no one knows what they meant by it. "To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male." Please think before you insinuate that all racists are white males....
Please learn to read?
"To a racist, it makes sense that a perfect way to insult someone is to describe as something other than a white male"
Does not mean that only white males are racists. It means exactly what it means. Calling someone gook (which is calling them asian) should not be an insult since the only thing "insulting" about it is that a gook is not white. Calling someone a bitch should not be insulting because the only reason it is insulting is because you're calling them a woman. In no way did I say that only white males are racist, what I'm saying is that describing someone as non-white non-male should not be an accepted form of insult. You'd see that if you learned to read words instead of simply pretending to read them.
And there is no "opinion" in my description of what happened with Destiny.
Destiny got upset at someone and called him the most insulting thing he could figure out at that immediate moment--asian. It could have been African, it could have been Homosexual--it's really arbitrary because he probably sees all three of these descriptors as an insulting thing to call another person.
This isn't some strange logic vodoo that I am concocting, it's literally the meaning of the word. He called someone a gook because he believes that calling someone a gook is insulting. He called him a gook because Destiny finds the word gook insulting. Calling someone a gook does not do anything other than describe the person as Asian. Which means Destiny called that person the most insulting thing he could figure out at the time--Asian.
This is not taking my opinion and projecting it--this is literally taking him at his word. Literally at his word.
You also seem to think that somehow there is this secret handshake that you need to do in order to become one of those "letter writers."
For example, when you said
Not at all, I'm saying they're both offensive and shouldn't be said.
I'm assuming that you know that you could very easily write your own letter to sponsors to complain or praise about anything you want. People decided that they didn't like racist language--so they wrote to sponsors about it. If you truly believe that words like retard is just as offensive as racial slurs--then by all means write to the sponsors about it. You don't have to limit yourself to simply the writings of others--if you truly believe in what you're saying then by all means write to the sponsors about how neither gook nor retard should be said. You are free to do so.
You're even free to write page after page of rants about how people shouldn't use the word retard. It's in your hands. Just because you feel that others aren't zealous enough does not mean you shouldn't stick up for your beliefs. Unless you don't actually care about non-whites and the handicap. If not, then you're also welcome to simply sit idle and watch them being attacked.
The inaction of others should not be a deterrent for your own actions.
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On May 09 2012 08:53 Graywolves wrote:
I'm honestly surprised at how so many people (including 'professionals') are looking down on 'witch-hunters' or those who complain to sponsors instead of looking to police themselves.
Sometimes the possible repercussions of having a player on your team and part of that sponsorship is very clear.
If you want this to be an eSport then treat it like one. We're never going to be this happy small community where we can all as one collective decide how things are handled and when people should feel offended enough to take a certain step in action.
Teams need to be mindful of their players and the attention that they get. You need to decide if the player is popular enough to get away with a scandal or if they bring too much negative attention to your community.
I'm sorry but it's really childish to point fingers at 'mobs' or 'masses' when they stood up and took action for something. If you feel that it could potentially be harmful to eSports then you need to be more careful about the image that is being projected from the players.
Seriously. Listen to yourself when you say "Don't go to sponsors about a player of poor sportsmanship who harrasses others."
You're trying to cover something up and be unethical about the situation. If you don't police yourselves others will for you.
In all honesty--I think a lot of Destiny's supporters are defending him because they dislike the idea of an internet where they are held accountable for their actions.
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So this thread is saying if your a fan, you should not speak negatively of any Esports people for the good of Esports.
Brush it aside and stay in the audience? Serisousely how will this ever be possible? You don't control 50,000 esports people. You can't force anyone to not complain, or to complain because its Esports. People will complain, there will always be someone out of 50,000 Esports community who doesn't like something. Its up to the Team and its Sponsors how to deal with it, because there is always complaints. Its up to the team and sponsor to decide how important which complaint/opinions are. The Esports community is telling you to silence your oppinions unless they approve first. The Esports community is becoming insanely controlling.
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On May 09 2012 10:32 zimz wrote:
So this thread is saying if your a fan, you should not speak negatively of any Esports people for the good of Esports.
Brush it aside and stay in the audience? Serisousely how will this ever be possible? You don't control 50,000 esports people. You can't force anyone to not complain, or to complain because its Esports. People will complain, there will always be someone out of 50,000 Esports community who doesn't like something. Its up to the Team and its Sponsors how to deal with it, because there is always complaints. Its up to the team and sponsor to decide how important which complaint/opinions are. The Esports community is telling you to silence your oppinions unless they approve first. The Esports community is becoming insanely controlling.
Start your own business. Doesn't have to be big, cut hair or sell sodas or something.
You'll learn very quickly that the customer base defines how you act and how you sell.
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On May 09 2012 10:36 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 10:32 zimz wrote:
So this thread is saying if your a fan, you should not speak negatively of any Esports people for the good of Esports.
Brush it aside and stay in the audience? Serisousely how will this ever be possible? You don't control 50,000 esports people. You can't force anyone to not complain, or to complain because its Esports. People will complain, there will always be someone out of 50,000 Esports community who doesn't like something. Its up to the Team and its Sponsors how to deal with it, because there is always complaints. Its up to the team and sponsor to decide how important which complaint/opinions are. The Esports community is telling you to silence your oppinions unless they approve first. The Esports community is becoming insanely controlling. Start your own business. Doesn't have to be big, cut hair or sell sodas or something. You'll learn very quickly that the customer base defines how you act and how you sell.
And some customer bases are more pleasant than others.
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On May 09 2012 10:37 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 10:36 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 10:32 zimz wrote:
So this thread is saying if your a fan, you should not speak negatively of any Esports people for the good of Esports.
Brush it aside and stay in the audience? Serisousely how will this ever be possible? You don't control 50,000 esports people. You can't force anyone to not complain, or to complain because its Esports. People will complain, there will always be someone out of 50,000 Esports community who doesn't like something. Its up to the Team and its Sponsors how to deal with it, because there is always complaints. Its up to the team and sponsor to decide how important which complaint/opinions are. The Esports community is telling you to silence your oppinions unless they approve first. The Esports community is becoming insanely controlling. Start your own business. Doesn't have to be big, cut hair or sell sodas or something. You'll learn very quickly that the customer base defines how you act and how you sell. And some customer bases are more pleasant than others.
Yes. Customers who dislike racial slurs are evil people?
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EPT
