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Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail.
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On May 09 2012 15:34 CarpetCleaner wrote:Destiny fanboys have struck again.  Quit acting like drama queens. This was a normal procedure and the one blowing out of proportions are the butthurt destiny fanboys.
Which side formed an angry mob demanding vengeance rather than rationally discussing the best course of action? Which side chose not to simply ignore something they dislike, but instead ran off to report bad behavior to an authority figure?
You call activities like that "normal procedure". And when someone questions whether there's a better way to have handled things, you call it being a butthurt immature drama queen.
That is political spin of the worst kind. I can only assume you're doing it intentionally... and in that case you should be embarrassed at how incompetent you are at distorting the facts.
Here's a tip for next time - you can only bullshit so much... if you lay it on too thick, even slow learners will be able to pick up on what you're doing.
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On May 09 2012 15:41 DN.rSquar3d wrote:
So anyone that doesn't support the witch hunting, pitchfork-raising or whatever you want to call it is a Destiny supporter? Get real too.
I'm no Destiny fan; I've watched his stream twice, tops, and no longer than one game each time. What I fear is the fact that this is becoming more and more prevalent recently, and teams are getting run over in the process. This wasn't the case in BW; this isn't the case in Korea, where pro StarCraft was born.
I agree that people using offensive language should face consequences, but stripping them of careers isn't right. Suspending them, fining them, that's the professional thing to do; that's what the professional sports are doing. What are we really aiming for here? Do we want e-sports to reach the level of the mainstream sports or not?
And are you implying that tennis, boxing, MMA, and virtually every other sport isn't a "professional environment" because there, when someone uses offensive language, they don't raise pitchforks like what our community is doing? Because as far as I know, they aren't booting players because of offensive language (refer to my previous post).
Edit: Refer to the recent Michael Llodra issue in tennis. He called a fan of his opponent a "fucking Chinese." He didn't get booted; he got fined and temporarily suspended. You're implying that by not booting him or stripping him of sponsors (like you're clearly proposing as the appropriate consequence for that kind of behavior), tennis is unprofessional, that the only professional way of going about such issues is instabooting?
lol You obviously don't know the meaning of witch hunting.
This is witch hunting.
http://www.sctemple.com/replay/165934/#Chat
This wasn't even warden and yet the witch hunting, pitchfork-raising mobs (oh the irony) of Destiny supporters used this as an example to attack Warden who did nothing wrong other than felt offended by an inconsiderate immature manchild who has history of throwing racial slurs just for chuckles and giggles.
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/esportscenter/esports-starcraft2/racist-fired/
Here is another example of the mob mentality of the destiny fanboys (oh the irony part 2) Destiny encouraged his fans to attack the site. I don't see how this is anything different than what warden did except warden actually had a case. Based on the apologists' book Destiny and his little fan boys had the rights to not read the article let alone flooding the comment section with childish insults. They even went far to boycott the advertiser of the site which is hilarious at so many level.
As for instabooting, what about the ESPN writer that got fired for saying "Chink in the armor" to lin and unlike Destiny the guy didn't meant to offend anyone. It was a genuine mistake where he apologized later unlike Destiny where he is still unapologetic and continue to throw childish tantrums and post 4chan memes as his responses. He got what he deserved. Quit defending him in the name of E-sports. This was hardly an issue until the fanboys made it big. Idra can be just as asinine but he knows when to stop and the reason why he still has his job while Destiny is back in his basement. Again I repeat, racial slurs are not accepted in any professional environment and it shouldn't be here period.
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@Thrombozyt, you pretty much summed it up. But let's not be so harsh. 
I actually want to give the witch hunters credit because they have good intentions. But the adage "the ends justify the means," with the ends being a "cleaner" e-sports environment being reached by ruining careers, sanitizing e-sports to the point of blandness, and kinda scaring sponsors (refer to State of the Game episode where they discuss the Orb issue).
@CarpetCleaner,
You are referring to an ESPN issue that involves journalism primarily, and second of all, it involves a FACTUAL article. As such, it is unforgivable to use subjective terms (such as racial slurs, meant or not) there.
The main issue here is whether the punishment is right. This is, again, discussed in the aforementioned State of the Game episode; should casters and other non-player personalities be treated the same way as players? The answer is no, because, in every sport, that has been the norm. Players have always been given more leeway than other sport personalities. The same can be said of the "Chink in the Armor" article when compared to the Michael Llodra issue; the journalist (non-player personality) was given less leeway than the player (Michael Llodra).
And, like I said, I do not condone witch hunting. Whether it is by the player's fans or the "anti-fans" or "anti-[inset player name here]," it is wrong to adapt a mob mentality, because that isn't how professionalism works. That's why, as I said in a previous post of mine, we should instead be lobbying for the formation of an international e-sports regulatory body (ala KeSPA). Our energies are better spent pushing for a PROFESSIONAL solution rather than a mob-mentality anarchist solution.
Unless, of course, we conclude that Day9 and the rest of the SOTG pillars, along with me (who, incidentally, had my own race called slurs and insulted as a whole) condone racism and vulgar behavior, and therefore were wrong to say that the teams should be the ones written to, and not the sponsors, and their argument that writing to sponsors is a very destructive and negative action, especially when viewed from the sponsor's perspective.
Edit: For the record, I am not defending Destiny's use of racial slurs. I've said it before and I'll say it again: he should be penalized and sanction (i.e. same to Michael Llodra when he was fined around $20,000, or IdrA who is also repeatedly fined), maybe have his stream defeatured and be suspended from attending events (the former was done by TL and I actually did support it because it was the professional action to take, instead of writing to sponsors). But, whatever sanctions he takes shouldn't spill over to his team as well as his career for eternity; his mistake (or whatever you want to call it) is less atrocious than the actions of other players (match fixing, anyone? haven't heard of pitchforks being raised during the recent GhostKingPrime match fixing scandal).
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On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail.
irony is that your assessment are really just another circle of arguments that has been addressed and talked to death on both side.
except yours are also extremely bias as well, at least try to be balance
how about these possibilities?
1) people have already contacted the team, and they decide to do nothing or have no support like most companies / gaming teams out there
2) they don't trust teams have enough power
3) big companies such as sponsors usually have great supports team with multiple channels availiable for contacts. And they probably are the "real manager" of a team.
What you said in your show will have great impact to your career, so don't say dumb shit if you're not aiming at those audiences.
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@iky43210, I actually agree with the bias.
Like I said, however we disagree with the methods used by the "mob" (since it seems "witch hunters" is becoming a sensitive term), we can't argue with the possibility of their good intentions. They don't like racism to mire e-sports; that's a good thing to want to work towards. It's the method I go against, not the intention.
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On May 09 2012 16:20 CarpetCleaner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 15:41 DN.rSquar3d wrote:
So anyone that doesn't support the witch hunting, pitchfork-raising or whatever you want to call it is a Destiny supporter? Get real too.
I'm no Destiny fan; I've watched his stream twice, tops, and no longer than one game each time. What I fear is the fact that this is becoming more and more prevalent recently, and teams are getting run over in the process. This wasn't the case in BW; this isn't the case in Korea, where pro StarCraft was born.
I agree that people using offensive language should face consequences, but stripping them of careers isn't right. Suspending them, fining them, that's the professional thing to do; that's what the professional sports are doing. What are we really aiming for here? Do we want e-sports to reach the level of the mainstream sports or not?
And are you implying that tennis, boxing, MMA, and virtually every other sport isn't a "professional environment" because there, when someone uses offensive language, they don't raise pitchforks like what our community is doing? Because as far as I know, they aren't booting players because of offensive language (refer to my previous post).
Edit: Refer to the recent Michael Llodra issue in tennis. He called a fan of his opponent a "fucking Chinese." He didn't get booted; he got fined and temporarily suspended. You're implying that by not booting him or stripping him of sponsors (like you're clearly proposing as the appropriate consequence for that kind of behavior), tennis is unprofessional, that the only professional way of going about such issues is instabooting? lol You obviously don't know the meaning of witch hunting. This is witch hunting. http://www.sctemple.com/replay/165934/#ChatThis wasn't even warden and yet the witch hunting, pitchfork-raising mobs (oh the irony) of Destiny supporters used this as an example to attack Warden who did nothing wrong other than felt offended by an inconsiderate immature manchild who has history of throwing racial slurs just for chuckles and giggles. http://www.gamebreaker.tv/esportscenter/esports-starcraft2/racist-fired/Here is another example of the mob mentality of the destiny fanboys (oh the irony part 2) Destiny encouraged his fans to attack the site. I don't see how this is anything different than what warden did except warden actually had a case. Based on the apologists' book Destiny and his little fan boys had the rights to not read the article let alone flooding the comment section with childish insults. They even went far to boycott the advertiser of the site which is hilarious at so many level. As for instabooting, what about the ESPN writer that got fired for saying "Chink in the armor" to lin and unlike Destiny the guy didn't meant to offend anyone. It was a genuine mistake where he apologized later unlike Destiny where he is still unapologetic and continue to throw childish tantrums and post 4chan memes as his responses. He got what he deserved. Quit defending him in the name of E-sports. This was hardly an issue until the fanboys made it big. Idra can be just as asinine but he knows when to stop and the reason why he still has his job while Destiny is back in his basement. Again I repeat, racial slurs are not accepted in any professional environment and it shouldn't be here period.
That reporter didn't need to lose his job either. Your argument is that if we apply an injustice equally, it's just. Also, whatever you're saying about Destiny fanboys just isn't relevant to this thread at all. Your first link as far as I can tell is an example of someone getting BMed in a game, so it doesn't strike me as being helpful.
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On May 09 2012 16:15 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 15:34 CarpetCleaner wrote:Destiny fanboys have struck again. Quit acting like drama queens. This was a normal procedure and the one blowing out of proportions are the butthurt destiny fanboys. Which side formed an angry mob demanding vengeance rather than rationally discussing the best course of action? Which side chose not to simply ignore something they dislike, but instead ran off to report bad behavior to an authority figure? You call activities like that "normal procedure". And when someone questions whether there's a better way to have handled things, you call it being a butthurt immature drama queen. That is political spin of the worst kind. I can only assume you're doing it intentionally... and in that case you should be embarrassed at how incompetent you are at distorting the facts. Here's a tip for next time - you can only bullshit so much... if you lay it on too thick, even slow learners will be able to pick up on what you're doing.
lol Read my 2nd post above. I didn't see any angry mobs. Angry mobs were in fact destiny fanboys as I have proven above. People already told Destiny about his behavior for months. He doesn't listen and in fact he'll ban everyone that disagrees with him on his stream. (oh the irony part 3) It's why I laugh when he tries to be this spokesperson of freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech goes both ways. He has the rights to act like an idiot and throw racial slurs around and people that are offended have rights to react and that includes telling his sponsors. It's naive to think that Quantic didn't know about this situation. You only need to watch 30 min of Destiny's stream to know what type of person he is. I would agree that in any other cases it would have been right to go to the team first but you can't really blame them in this case where everyone including Quantic knew about Destiny's usage of racial slurs.
Hopefully Quantic have learned a valuable lesson and think twice before they sign a player. Seriously, you rarely would see it in any other professional sports where a mediocre player like Destiny would get sponsors in the first place. We are talking about a terrible player who can't get pass the 2nd round in MLG open bracket. The racial insults were just the nail in the coffin. Bottom line is, this isn't circus, and we don't need clowns to represent our scene if we really want to grow as E-sports. You can argue about the degree of punishment but overall we are going the right direction 
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Ah, no. The direction, not really. We're starting off with the biggest punishments and the greatest degrees of mob mentality/ideas of superiority or moral ascendancy. That's not attractive from the outside perspective.
And again, there are worse players than Destiny that may have worse usage of racial slurs; any one of those guys can rise up and stream to a large audience. Why aren't we hunting them down, if this is the right kind of justice/punishment?
And you're saying that players that perform less than others, in your words mediocre, have less "rights" than those that play better? Didn't everyone, even the pros, start as scrubs as some point in time? Didn't everyone at least rage once? Like I said in another post, maybe we should do some introspection first before we judge others. Maybe we should put ourselves in everyone else's shoes before pulling out all the pitchforks?
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On May 09 2012 16:45 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 16:20 CarpetCleaner wrote:On May 09 2012 15:41 DN.rSquar3d wrote:
So anyone that doesn't support the witch hunting, pitchfork-raising or whatever you want to call it is a Destiny supporter? Get real too.
I'm no Destiny fan; I've watched his stream twice, tops, and no longer than one game each time. What I fear is the fact that this is becoming more and more prevalent recently, and teams are getting run over in the process. This wasn't the case in BW; this isn't the case in Korea, where pro StarCraft was born.
I agree that people using offensive language should face consequences, but stripping them of careers isn't right. Suspending them, fining them, that's the professional thing to do; that's what the professional sports are doing. What are we really aiming for here? Do we want e-sports to reach the level of the mainstream sports or not?
And are you implying that tennis, boxing, MMA, and virtually every other sport isn't a "professional environment" because there, when someone uses offensive language, they don't raise pitchforks like what our community is doing? Because as far as I know, they aren't booting players because of offensive language (refer to my previous post).
Edit: Refer to the recent Michael Llodra issue in tennis. He called a fan of his opponent a "fucking Chinese." He didn't get booted; he got fined and temporarily suspended. You're implying that by not booting him or stripping him of sponsors (like you're clearly proposing as the appropriate consequence for that kind of behavior), tennis is unprofessional, that the only professional way of going about such issues is instabooting? lol You obviously don't know the meaning of witch hunting. This is witch hunting. http://www.sctemple.com/replay/165934/#ChatThis wasn't even warden and yet the witch hunting, pitchfork-raising mobs (oh the irony) of Destiny supporters used this as an example to attack Warden who did nothing wrong other than felt offended by an inconsiderate immature manchild who has history of throwing racial slurs just for chuckles and giggles. http://www.gamebreaker.tv/esportscenter/esports-starcraft2/racist-fired/Here is another example of the mob mentality of the destiny fanboys (oh the irony part 2) Destiny encouraged his fans to attack the site. I don't see how this is anything different than what warden did except warden actually had a case. Based on the apologists' book Destiny and his little fan boys had the rights to not read the article let alone flooding the comment section with childish insults. They even went far to boycott the advertiser of the site which is hilarious at so many level. As for instabooting, what about the ESPN writer that got fired for saying "Chink in the armor" to lin and unlike Destiny the guy didn't meant to offend anyone. It was a genuine mistake where he apologized later unlike Destiny where he is still unapologetic and continue to throw childish tantrums and post 4chan memes as his responses. He got what he deserved. Quit defending him in the name of E-sports. This was hardly an issue until the fanboys made it big. Idra can be just as asinine but he knows when to stop and the reason why he still has his job while Destiny is back in his basement. Again I repeat, racial slurs are not accepted in any professional environment and it shouldn't be here period. That reporter didn't need to lose his job either. Your argument is that if we apply an injustice equally, it's just. Also, whatever you're saying about Destiny fanboys just isn't relevant to this thread at all. Your first link as far as I can tell is an example of someone getting BMed in a game, so it doesn't strike me as being helpful.
My first example has nothing to do with getting BMed but destiny fanboys spreading false information to discredit warden's case and write it off as double standard. It turned out that the guy wasn't warden who was BMing and was entirely someone else. I was pointing out the irony because people were accusing warden of starting this witch hunt which is far from the truth.
My point about "chink in the armor" was to emphasize how sensitive racial slurs can be in the real world or in any professional scene. Although you might argue about the degree of punishment, the fact is you will get punished. I personally think Destiny might have got away with it and given another chance if he sincerely apologized but he acted like a 7 years old kid and is why he is back in his basement. I'm very surprised a site like TL that is very strict on offensive language and strive on professionalism had him featured in their site in the first place. He should be permanently unlisted.
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The rules on featured streams clearly indicate that the stream should already be popular on its on right, as well as the player being, at the very least, already better. That's the case with Destiny; I mean, out of the majority of NA players, he most likely be must be in the upper echelons (although not in the same degree as IdrA or Sheth).
As for permanent unlisting after this incident, I can actually agree with that, It's the e-mailing of the sponsors that I can never agree to, or the permanent ruining of careers.
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There seems to be this understanding that it was the community that fired Destiny and not Razer.
Razer fired Destiny. Destiny was asked by the community to stop being racist, and he told them to fuck off. After which, the community went to the sponsors to inform them that they had a problem with a product that represented them.
The sponsors decided that it was better to fire Destiny than it was to make Destiny apologize.
If you look at the facts, the community tried talking to Destiny first. They were ignored. Time passed, the team did not show up. So what did they do? They talked to sponsors.
But all that is irrelevant. People have the write to say what they want to sponsors. You disagreeing with them does not remove that right.
To all the people that feel that Destiny should not have been fired--the people to talk to about that is Razer and Quantic. They were the ones who decided to fire Destiny. If you feel the punishment is so harsh--send a wave of emails asking for better treatment of bigots. It's very easy to resolve the issue if the only problem people have is the severity of the punishment--talk to the people who doled out the punishment.
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On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail.
What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language.
The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all.
Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not.
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On May 09 2012 17:08 DN.rSquar3d wrote:The rules on featured streams clearly indicate that the stream should already be popular on its on right, as well as the player being, at the very least, already better. That's the case with Destiny; I mean, out of the majority of NA players, he most likely be must be in the upper echelons (although not in the same degree as IdrA or Sheth). As for permanent unlisting after this incident, I can actually agree with that, It's the e-mailing of the sponsors that I can never agree to, or the permanent ruining of careers.
Sounds good to me. He can do whatever he wants in his basement with his niche group. I just don't think he represents anything TL stands for. It would be double standard for them to mod the users as heavy as they do and feature streamers that constantly throw racial slurs.
By the way, I never disagreed about emailing the player or the team first but if anything doesn't get done after that, they have every right to email the sponsor. I just feel like this case was an exception to the rules since Destiny was notoriously known for his racist, sexist language. The fact that Quantic did nothing about it all this time tells me the complaints would have most likely fallen in deaf ears. And also, how are you guys so sure there weren't any complaints to Quantic about destiny in the past and they felt like it was the last resort.
We shouldn't make assumption and even though we all agree that it could have been handled better, at the end of the day, the biggest culprit was and is Destiny. If he hadn't been an inconsiderate douche bag and had any common sense of how real world works none of this would have happened. But maybe we are asking too much to a child trapped in a man's body. He just doesn't get it and I don't see him getting another sponsor ever.
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On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not.
It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time.
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On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time.
Destiny regularly says bigoted things.
Destiny is known to say these things.
They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs.
EDIT
You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you?
TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL.
The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that.
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On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not.
The team/sponsors won't hire someone back they have fired in such a case. Simply because rehiring would upset Group B more and they have prior knowledge of the existance of Group B. You don't think that if by simply writing to the sponsors the verdict could be turned to a lighter sentence, the fans of Destiny (which I am not one of) wouldn't have sprung into action? (btw: this was one of the very first things I posted.. I feel another round coming :/ )
Group B chose a path that was known to lead to the sacking of the player. Thus I find it fair to ask, why they chose this path over other possible alternatives. This is the core of this thread.
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On May 09 2012 18:08 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 17:59 oBlade wrote:On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. It's already been covered that praise doesn't speak nearly as loudly as negativity, and as for your above post, I can't even meet you on the logic of it because it's as though you didn't read any of the Quantic posts in this thread, they really didn't have time. Destiny regularly says bigoted things. Destiny is known to say these things. They've known since they signed him up that something like this would happen--it's part of getting someone with Destiny's personality. It's not that hard to preemptively tell your players to not use racial slurs. EDIT You're not getting the point about the praise letters are you? TL has no power over whether a sponsor fires or doesn't fire a player. Telling TL how you want policy to work has zero benefit apart from wasting one's breath. If you want the world to work a certain way--you need to work for it. The world does not become more fair from whining on TL. The policies of Razer is not controlled by the TL forum. So stop telling members of TL how Razer should have handled the circumstance when it should be Razer that you're talking to about that.
I can't pretend what you've written is relevant to anything or even guess why you are bringing up TL. TL doesn't run the fucking GSL but it doesn't stop us from talking about it on the forum. It's impossible to know beforehand that any one thing (yes, including racial slurs) is going to cause a shitstorm. How can you pretend that something like this had to happen when up until now it didn't? I agree, it doesn't help things when people go on TL and encouraging a mindless bandwagon of copy/pasting boilerplate emails about how racism is bad before you have given Quantic a chance to do shit. I assume this is the whining you're referencing.
When people write negative things to sponsors, they're inherently going to get more attention than when people write status quo "keep up the good work" things to sponsors. I guess I could write to Razer and warn them not to forward random vitriol to sponsors, but I think it's more effective to hash these things out with your peers on the forum.
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On May 09 2012 18:16 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 17:56 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 16:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
Skimming the thread, I see it has come the full circle twice. For some reason, the core question is never really answered. Instead the discussion goes like this:
A: Why did you have to form a group and write directly to the sponsors instead of the team? Did you really have to get him fired?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
A: The sponsors left the team little choice. As seen in previous cases, players get automatically fired when people go directly to the sponsors. So why didn't you go to the teams? I think that would have been more appropriate.
B: You cannot dictate what we can or cannot do! If he has the right to do something we dislike, it's our right to complain!
A: Yes, you can complain. But do you really have to get a guy fired? Why didn't you go to the team?
B: Why was the player so racist/bigot? You use a racial slur, you get fired EVERYWHERE! He could have called his opponent 'shitty motherfucking cunt' and it would have been ok. But he called him 'gook'!
A: Yes, you get fired if drama ensues. But that's the point. Do we really need that much drama? Why didn't you just go to the team instead of directly to the sponsors. Also I think all insults are bad.
B: You clearly have no idea how racism destroys life. You think it's OK to use racial slurs? You are such a bigot! How dare you!
A: Of course its bad to use racial slur! But why do you go to the sponsors and not complain to the team first?
B: It was the teams decision to fire him. They were free to do what they wanted but they agreed that he had to be fired.
And so it goes on and on and on. In the end, I'm left to answer the main question "Why go directly to the sponsors instead of the team?" myself. My personal guess is that they are
A) overly self-righteous and fully intended the sacking as proper punishment.
B) they like being outraged and the sacking is just a side effect of their power trip they don't care about.
C) they were angry and wanted to do something. Now they realize, that they have greatly damaged a players career, but are too proud to admit that it might have been a bit of an over reaction so they defend it tooth and nail. What's funny is that if the problem is about destiny getting fired--it's very easy to simply send letters to the sponsors telling them that they were too harsh. It should be easy to round up a mob of people to tell the sponsors to hire back Destiny despite his bigoted language. The reason I say this is because it doesn't actually address the argument at all. Group B dislikes racism, so they talked to sponsors. Group A wishes that the punishment was lighter--but instead of talking to the sponsors they ask group B why they fired Destiny despite group B having no say in whether Destiny (or any player) should be fired or not. The team/sponsors won't hire someone back they have fired in such a case. Simply because rehiring would upset Group B more and they have prior knowledge of the existance of Group B. You don't think that if by simply writing to the sponsors the verdict could be turned to a lighter sentence, the fans of Destiny (which I am not one of) wouldn't have sprung into action? (btw: this was one of the very first things I posted.. I feel another round coming :/ ) Group B chose a path that was known to lead to the sacking of the player. Thus I find it fair to ask, why they chose this path over other possible alternatives. This is the core of this thread.
They chose it because they dislike racism and wished for it to be treated harshly and quickly.
They, as a community, wants esports to take a firm stance on the topic of racism.
They, as a customer base, wish for a product that doesn't pay players to use racial slurs.
That is why they chose that avenue. Because, in all honesty, they cared more about stopping the spread of bigotry than they did about hurting Destiny's feelings.
As for "hiring back" the player--Naniwa was stripped of his Code S seed for unsportsmanship. But when he was given high support from his fans again, he was given back his code S seed. So we know, from empirical evidence, that companies are willing to rescind their initial punishments. Even Coca and Byun are back into the GSL after their match fixing scandal. Do you really think that it's impossible for companies to change their minds despite evidence to the contrary.
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On May 09 2012 17:52 lorkac wrote:
There seems to be this understanding that it was the community that fired Destiny and not Razer.
Razer fired Destiny. Destiny was asked by the community to stop being racist, and he told them to fuck off. After which, the community went to the sponsors to inform them that they had a problem with a product that represented them.
The sponsors decided that it was better to fire Destiny than it was to make Destiny apologize.
If you look at the facts, the community tried talking to Destiny first. They were ignored. Time passed, the team did not show up. So what did they do? They talked to sponsors.
But all that is irrelevant. People have the write to say what they want to sponsors. You disagreeing with them does not remove that right.
To all the people that feel that Destiny should not have been fired--the people to talk to about that is Razer and Quantic. They were the ones who decided to fire Destiny. If you feel the punishment is so harsh--send a wave of emails asking for better treatment of bigots. It's very easy to resolve the issue if the only problem people have is the severity of the punishment--talk to the people who doled out the punishment.
Especially in previous posts but also this one, i have the feeling that you agree with making an example of Destiny by sending letters to sponsors. This to encourage other players and streamers to watch their mouth and to stop racial slurs in general right?
I think making an example of someone, by punishing this individual (inproportional) to stop others in general is wrong, and I think you agree with me on this.
The problem is, that you don't agree with the punishment being inproportional, thats why (also in the above statement) you tell people to write letters to the sponsors if you don't agree with their punishment.
Here i don't agree with you,
First of all, writing to sponsors at this moment is not going to change anything, because the harm has been done already, and sponsors can not change their desicion in this stage.
Next to this, if i would be a sponser, and i would receive 100 mails (or letters) complaining about racial slurs, i would not hesitate te remove the sponsorship.
The problem is, and this is the fundemental point of the discussion, is that using the power of the mob in this way is very scary, especially in a community which is not matured enough to handle the power, which people can and will abuse.
This abuse of power from the mob comes in many forms, and these are just the first signs.
I can imagine people writing sponsors, because somebody drinking beer (doing drugs) on their stream, or because they say curse words in general, hell even when the quality of the stream is not good, you could write the sponsors about a bad representation of their products.
The problem is that because the sponsors and the community is new and not matured, even the sponsors are not professional enough to see those letters (mails) in the correct context.
Let me rephrase this, because otherwise i'm getting complaints about above statement.
People know that sponsors and the community are new and not matured enough, so people can manipulate the judgement of the sponsors (by sending mails and letters) in such a way that they can abuse their unproffessionalism or their lack of interest in the subject
This is witch hunting, and it's not good.
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