EPTStunted Growth of SC2 - Page 7
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sertas
Sweden869 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Its not East vs West though that is the solution I think, but you are spot on with the whole notion of 'faceless' progamers. The problem is that the GSL format does not allow for the creation of good stories. I mean, just look how much hype MC/MMA/Boxer/FruitDealer creates? Why, because they have great stories behind them and it gives us a reason to follow them. I blame GomTV, their ranking system just destroys any chance of an under-dog story, notice that GSL 1 was the only one with an actually good story. The reason? Its obvious, there was no ranking system prior to that, and Cool[fou] was the big underdog, if it was the ranking system we have now, we would never have that story. GSL should just adopt a much more freeflowing ranking system that allows stories to develop. | ||
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Hoodlum
United States350 Posts
If I could add anything to your thoughts I would say that it also helps that a lot of Korean teams have a B-team if you will. Beside complexity most of the rosters for foreign teams are rather small. EG for example had decent players in StrifeCo and Axslav but they let them go. No teams are helping to foster new talent. I'm not saying you they have to pay them but just the chance to learn from better players could foster in some new talent. | ||
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treekiller
United States236 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote: I agree that this can happen, and has happened to some extent with a number of players (MMA, sage, hero and so on). But actually nationality does have something to do with it. Since people have been drilled on "korean invasion" and whatnot for so long the "koreans are coming" storyline is something that people are interested in so in that sense nationality matters. Noname foreigners become overnight sensations when they beat out a few koreans, whereas the converse is not true.I think the reality of it has more to do with player's skill and display of skill than anything else, actually. I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way. I still feel like it has absolutely nothing to do with a player's nationality. When unknown Korean players actually SHOW glimpses of brilliance and perfection in play, they gain a massive following on the foreign scene. MMA was the people's champion and one of the most popular players in the world WAY before he even made it into Code S, let alone won it. So were DRG, HerO, Bomber - and even some players who didn't make it (Sage comes to mind). In fact if you look at it, at least half the most popular Korean players all became popular before they even qualified for Code A. By all standards, they too should have been "faceless". They didn't give interviews, they didn't travel to foreign events, in fact they didn't show up anywhere except for a couple of GSTL matches. Hell, DRG was becoming popular when he was just a streamer with zero competitive showings (pre-MVP era), based on his play alone. But when they played the game, they showed how good they are, and it just set them apart from every other GSTL player, Code A player, and even the current top players and mvp/NesTea duo that dominated back then. Well, DRG became popular because he was an absolute GSTL beast. Not only that he was able to showcase a unique style of ZvT which caught peoples eye (similar to spanishiwa in a sense). I don't think anyone has become famous off of their stream in Korea; the same can't be said for the foreigner scene, though. On the other hand, you have a tremendous number of players who just happen to win games and stick around. It's very much the Squirtle/Lucky archetype. They get results, especially so in foreign events, but they simply don't impress, which is an expectation that people have of their champions, and it's a very reasonable expectation to have. Players can absolutely become popular by playing good and showing off their skill - without ever showing their face on camera or interacting with fans or creating "storylines" or speaking english. You might be right, in fact I'm sure you're right. But I don't think what I'm saying is mutually exclusive to what you've said here But showing results is absolutely not the same as showing skill, and very few players (Korean or otherwise) have done the latter often enough to become known for it. Those that did have overwhelming support and interest of the foreign scene, and not just on TL forums, but in front of a live crowd at events (MMA at MLG and Blizzcon, HerO at Dreamhack, MKP who got sponsored by fans to travel to an MLG, etc). In fact they continue to be more popular and more known in casual circles than current Code S players even if they struggle and fail to get results for months, and they're very unlikely to fall into obscurity in the foreseeable future. EDIT: I can't imagine the same amount of passion and excitement for a Squirtle vs aLive final if it happened anywhere in the world.  | ||
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Hoodlum
United States350 Posts
On April 21 2012 15:57 treekiller wrote: As a white foreigner I resent the assumption that I am automatically a fan of other foreigners. My favorite players are all Korean. How can you call Alive and Squirtle faceless koreans? What fan of SC2 doesnt know who they are? He said that not everyone is gonna think that way and also I think hes considering very casual viewers. I know a few people who watch SC with me and know who some foreigners are but they don't know who Alive or Squirtle are, hell outside of Nestea, MKP, and MC I don't think they know any other koreans. Obviously the HC fans are gonna know these guys but you have to consider the other guys, the guys who help grow esports by rooting for that one or two foreigners they relate to. | ||
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Resolve
Singapore679 Posts
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
Sure if you want average joe that watches halo to cheer then your points are well stated and valid. But didn't wc3, bw, and numerous other games become serious draws for fanship without mainstreaming? Didn't they grow organically to become what they were going to become? I guess my point is that you are defining a thing by popular widespread appeal and then judging the sc2 scene by failing to meet that definition. Perhaps that definition is correct, I simply think that it is only one way of looking at it. A very thought provoking article. Thank you Plexa for your perspective on this. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17170 Posts
For the moment I guess I'll stick with HoN where Koreans can't do shit and Euro teams are dominating (along with Australians). | ||
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote: I think the reality of it has more to do with player's skill and display of skill than anything else, actually. I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way. I still feel like it has absolutely nothing to do with a player's nationality. When unknown Korean players actually SHOW glimpses of brilliance and perfection in play, they gain a massive following on the foreign scene. MMA was the people's champion and one of the most popular players in the world WAY before he even made it into Code S, let alone won it. So were DRG, HerO, Bomber - and even some players who didn't make it (Sage comes to mind). In fact if you look at it, at least half the most popular Korean players all became popular before they even qualified for Code A. By all standards, they too should have been "faceless". They didn't give interviews, they didn't travel to foreign events, in fact they didn't show up anywhere except for a couple of GSTL matches. Hell, DRG was becoming popular when he was just a streamer with zero competitive showings (pre-MVP era), based on his play alone. But when they played the game, they showed how good they are, and it just set them apart from every other GSTL player, Code A player, and even the current top players and mvp/NesTea duo that dominated back then. On the other hand, you have a tremendous number of players who just happen to win games and stick around. It's very much the Squirtle/Lucky archetype. They get results, especially so in foreign events, but they simply don't impress, which is an expectation that people have of their champions, and it's a very reasonable expectation to have. Players can absolutely become popular by playing good and showing off their skill - without ever showing their face on camera or interacting with fans or creating "storylines" or speaking english. But showing results is absolutely not the same as showing skill, and very few players (Korean or otherwise) have done the latter often enough to become known for it. Those that did have overwhelming support and interest of the foreign scene, and not just on TL forums, but in front of a live crowd at events (MMA at MLG and Blizzcon, HerO at Dreamhack, MKP who got sponsored by fans to travel to an MLG, etc). In fact they continue to be more popular and more known in casual circles than current Code S players even if they struggle and fail to get results for months, and they're very unlikely to fall into obscurity in the foreseeable future. EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcLFrElfjBM I can't imagine the same amount of passion and excitement for a Squirtle vs aLive final if it happened anywhere in the world. On April 21 2012 05:44 Jumperer wrote: This wouldn't be a problem at all if sc2 was entertaining to watch. On April 21 2012 05:42 Kraznaya wrote: so this thread is "marketing is why people are still rooting for incontrol and tyler and idra when they could be rooting for illusion, and marketing for the short term will kill sc2 foreign scene in the long term" These 3 posts sum up what I would have to say about this topic and why I don't care about competitive SC2 at all since the beta ended. Edit: Oh, and I wouldn't throw in Nony there, because he's actually a legit player. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 21 2012 19:07 cascades wrote: How did MKP and DRG become non-faceless ? MC is explainable, but MKP and DRG seems carry over from GSL/GSTL. Genuinely curious. When MKP first played, he used "BoxeR" as his name. That was enough to get the initial attention. Then he solidified it in an important TvZ series in the GSL 2, he turned over a game with the "debut" of Marine micro. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 21 2012 19:14 ZenDeX wrote: When MKP first played, he used "BoxeR" as his name. That was enough to get the initial attention. Then he solidified it in an important TvZ series in the GSL 2, he turned over a game with the "debut" of Marine micro. plus he always got 2nd place, which is remniscent for some as similair to Yellow Ow yeah, Dragon got famous for streaming alone due to his habit of entertaining the viewers rather then serious ladder, this is however an exception. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On April 21 2012 16:12 Plexa wrote: I agree that this can happen, and has happened to some extent with a number of players (MMA, sage, hero and so on). But actually nationality does have something to do with it. Since people have been drilled on "korean invasion" and whatnot for so long the "koreans are coming" storyline is something that people are interested in so in that sense nationality matters. Noname foreigners become overnight sensations when they beat out a few koreans, whereas the converse is not true. Well, DRG became popular because he was an absolute GSTL beast. Not only that he was able to showcase a unique style of ZvT which caught peoples eye (similar to spanishiwa in a sense). I don't think anyone has become famous off of their stream in Korea; the same can't be said for the foreigner scene, though. You might be right, in fact I'm sure you're right. But I don't think what I'm saying is mutually exclusive to what you've said here No it's not, in fact I'd like to take back the statement that nationality doesn't matter at all (I was writing that at 4 AM and got a bit carried away  ). In retrospect, I have to concede that it's pretty obvious that there are different standards for Korean players and foreign players, especially when it comes to breaking out into the scene.My point, in a nutshell, was that players (specifically Korean players) that are actually talented and capable of showing off skill in the games they play transcend that kind of foreign popularity bias with relative ease - and, in turn, generate excitement and create very memorable experiences for casual and hardcore fans alike, perhaps even more so than many foreigners would. I don't think many would have complained or showed lack of interest if the MMA vs DRG Blizzard Cup finals happened at IPL4. I would say the majority of fans would leave extremely satisfied with the experience. The problem right now is that there are very few of these players, while the scene is oversaturated with players that do not possess such qualities and are very far from being "paragons" of SC2, yet they deliver very good results nonetheless. In my eyes, this is what creates the "faceless player" problem much more so than these players being Korean or their lack of presence in media and social circles. Another related problem IMO is that the game itself can be very harsh and punishing to players who try to play on razor's edge (the way top progamers should be expected to play). The return-on-skill-investment in SC2 appears to be worryingly low right now and conservative play with strategic twists will net better results on average. Edit: DRG got quite popular by streaming while he was on ProS (he didn't even stream on TL, somebody restreamed his Korean stream). In fact, that and ladder are what led to his first english interview article. Also I remember him being hyped on TL a while before he even joined MVP, and being compared to NesTea or proclaimed better than NesTea by a lot of people. Given that it's not mainstream recognition, but it was still recognition during a period when he was a complete nobody in the pro scene. | ||
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Cubu
1171 Posts
Esports is about competition among progamers with skills that differentiate them from amateurs. I think maybe foreigners just want esports (like that of korea) just for the sake of having esports. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
No tournament right now has the balls to make their tournament 100% open because they want short term "e-sports prosperity" for a few instead of giving everyone, including 100% unknowns/unestablished players a chance to make it. And no, you cannot say TSL3 was 100% open - it also had many invites. I will give you credit that TSL3 has been the most open tournament to date though. As for the "koreans killing e-sports thing," I also agree 100% about that and how that makes entry even more difficult for "second gen foreign pros." People already made posts/blogs about this ages ago, how it's utterly stupid to basically hand koreans all foreign money. I believe catz was one of the most outspoken people on the issue, but forum warriors and "e-sports evangelists" simply pitchforked and said everyone was being racist. How does anyone expect a foreign scene, let alone the entire scene to grow if every single prize purse is basically going to korean players from established korean teams etc. It makes little jonny USA/every foreign team basically say, "wow, fuck sending players to LANs." To get to these big events to "make a name for yourself" is a huge gamble even for the best players due to bracket luck + the mass korean invasion. 400+ dollars for hotel/plane/whatever, you get there, knocked out by a korean and you gain zero exposure, no casted matches, etc...do the math. You would be better off investing that money in online poker. So yeah, I basically agree but i've said it before and a few other brave souls have about how the scene needs to have open tournaments not this invite bs. Make everyone earn their stay in the scene, and if they are at the cream of the crop then they will re-qualify regardless. Don't just hand it to them and say "fuck you" to the unknown / new players that are looking to make a name for themselves. Nothing is going to change on this though, I highly doubt it. Because tournaments want that short term viewership boost, they are going to keep giving hand-outs to get exposure/audience for their tournament. Foreign e-sports is an old gentlemen's club right now tbh. | ||
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chocopaw
2072 Posts
 Because in some points you are probably right, casuals want to see more foreigners. Which confirms me in my wish to not see eSports/SC2 growing any further (see my last blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=328039 ). It will be interesting to see what happens with the influx of the bw pros later this year, who are undoubtedly skillwise not only in another league, but on another planet. Maybe people who really love the game will still happily attend MLGs/IPLs etc. where every foreigner is eliminated in the first round. But maybe not. In that case there will still be the Korean tournaments. @zul: What negativity in the LR thread are you refering to exactly? | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On April 21 2012 21:21 avilo wrote: Been saying it for ages, people want "SC2 to grow" yet the scene keeps inviting the same 30-40 players to their tournaments. Make everything open, make everyone earn it. That simple. No excuses. If a big name gets knocked out by an unknown player...guess what? That player is probably good...and perhaps that "known" player was overhyped and the unknown will become known. No tournament right now has the balls to make their tournament 100% open because they want short term "e-sports prosperity" for a few instead of giving everyone, including 100% unknowns/unestablished players a chance to make it. And no, you cannot say TSL3 was 100% open - it also had many invites. I will give you credit that TSL3 has been the most open tournament to date though. As for the "koreans killing e-sports thing," I also agree 100% about that and how that makes entry even more difficult for "second gen foreign pros." People already made posts/blogs about this ages ago, how it's utterly stupid to basically hand koreans all foreign money. I believe catz was one of the most outspoken people on the issue, but forum warriors and "e-sports evangelists" simply pitchforked and said everyone was being racist. How does anyone expect a foreign scene, let alone the entire scene to grow if every single prize purse is basically going to korean players from established korean teams etc. It makes little jonny USA/every foreign team basically say, "wow, fuck sending players to LANs." To get to these big events to "make a name for yourself" is a huge gamble even for the best players due to bracket luck + the mass korean invasion. 400+ dollars for hotel/plane/whatever, you get there, knocked out by a korean and you gain zero exposure, no casted matches, etc...do the math. You would be better off investing that money in online poker. So yeah, I basically agree but i've said it before and a few other brave souls have about how the scene needs to have open tournaments not this invite bs. Make everyone earn their stay in the scene, and if they are at the cream of the crop then they will re-qualify regardless. Don't just hand it to them and say "fuck you" to the unknown / new players that are looking to make a name for themselves. Nothing is going to change on this though, I highly doubt it. Because tournaments want that short term viewership boost, they are going to keep giving hand-outs to get exposure/audience for their tournament. Foreign e-sports is an old gentlemen's club right now tbh. ![[image loading]](http://cdn4.diggstatic.com/story/http_blog_speedysigns_com_wp_content_uploads_2011_06_bro_fist_gif/o.png) User was warned for this post | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
Grr. Typing at work, got distracted in the middle of this (quick, hide the TL page!) but... I think the idea I was aiming at is there. | ||
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Mysti_
France185 Posts
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