EPTFaceless Koreans? Only because fans are blinded by foreigner pride IMO
Stunted Growth of SC2 - Page 5
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askTeivospy
1525 Posts
Faceless Koreans? Only because fans are blinded by foreigner pride IMO | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
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ghosthunter
United States414 Posts
I enjoyed your argument a lot, Plexa. I hadn't thought of it that way but it makes a lot of sense. It's also a bit terrifying, especially as we get more and more Korean dominated events. I believe exposure through properly targeted orchestration of events (IPL4 had TERRIBLE game selection) would help a lot, but stacking a bracket with 50% Koreans just smothers our new ESports youth in its infancy. I left before Nestea vs Squirtle finished to drive back to CA and just had my friends read me the live report results - because once Nestea was out, I didn't care enough about Squirtle vs Alive (even with Squirtle's interesting bracket run). As we can all say, we want to see top level play - but we also want to see our fan favorites and storylines. For foreigners, SC2 is our chance to make a splash. Jinro, Idra, and Huk made the first seasons of GSL always interesting as they were doing well. This season has been the most exciting ever for me because I can watch Naniwa (who I've always loved through all his shit) reach for the foreigner dream as well as the honorary Foreigners (Liquid'Hero and potentially Taeja) show it up. I do not believe "high-level play" is what maintains sports. We can look at professional sports and see that the franchises and the players are what teams are going for. I think LoL is a poorly balanced game - but I still get a kick out of watching CLG (the most storied team who has gone to Korea) go up against the new breakout high school team at IPL4. I do not believe "racism" or "protectionism" is necessarily the answer to the "Korean Blight." I don't know what the answer truly is. Your suggestion of qualifiers with invites sounds promising. A limit on Koreans may be the unfortunate way to go - if not overt (or rather, not going out of the way to invite 31 Koreans (GSTL excepting.)). We need to grow our foreigner teams, our players, and our fans if SC2 is to survive outside of Korea. Maybe when OGN picks up hosting SC2, there will be enough incentive for Koreans to remain in Korea more often. PS. How do we feel about honorary foreigners (Koreans on foreigner teams - JYP, Hero, Taeja, Zenio, etc.)? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
I don't understand why there aren't more open qualifiers or even more camera time devoted to said qualifiers. The playhem daily is a perfect example that there are viewers out there willing to generate ad revenue for the smaller market players. Why can't the big boys in the foreign scene embrace that and help it grow? | ||
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jubil
United States2602 Posts
Or tournaments to adopt a similarly open structure - imagine instead of the whole "focus on the invational pools, and a few people from an open bracket will get into pools" to the entire tournament being an open bracket with results determining if you make the cutoff into pool play, and the pool results determine one last cut and seeding in a direct elimination bracket. Right now the practice of seeding high level Koreans directly into pool play is unfair to everyone, foreigner and non-seeded Korean alike. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
We need have a foreign system for developing players work. I think part of it lies with teams. I've heard so much about how foreign players don't play customs enough, with a wide variety of players, purely for the purpose of improvement, putting the ego aside.. We hear so much about how the Korean ladder is the best. Well, why don't all the above players, and all the other foreign players play with everyone else, with everyone improving. EU to NA lag is good enough to play competitively, there's an entire scene which should be working together, rather than the fragmentation that we seem to have now. When EG used to stream their practice in house games (though they've stopped now, I hope because they don't want other players watching their games, not because they stopped playing them) it was interesting, because there were not that many players outside the house playing with them. To me, when a pro wants to play a custom game, their should be loads of other pros wanting to play with them, so they can both improve by playing against another good player, rather than continuing to play masters players on ladder. I'm very tired, that could all have been gibberish, please tell me if so. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
My own thoughts: 1. Personally, I feel there is a oversaturation of tournaments. I mean, there are literally so many SC2 tournaments going on it's hard for the average viewer to keep track of what is happening. While people may think this is good, after a while, the market begins to stagnate. And this is worrying me for SC2, on the esports level. In other words, the less tournaments there are, the more important they become and of course the more prestigious is the winner. As it stands, I couldn't care less if Alive won IPL4, or MKP or MC to be quite honest with you. Why? Because the next tournament is just around the corner or is even starting the very next day! 2. Inviting people to tours instead of letting them earn it. This is a big deal for me. I dont remember the last time that some Brood War was invited to the MSL or OSL?  By having invited players, their actual presence is underminded as is the tournament. Wouldnt it be great if MC actually had to qualify for some of these tours rather than receive a very pleasing email, call etc? Wouldnt it be good if he had to go through some of his Korean brethren and then be able attend Dreamhack fair and square?Invites = crap tournament in my eyes. 3. "The faceless Korean". There is no doubt in my eyes that this is actually very slowly killing Western SC2 esports. First of all, what chances does Thorzain, Destiny, etc actually think they have when they enter a tournament with 10+ Korean pros. How demoralising can this be? From the viewers point of view, they WANT to see their stars compete (not necessarily win but COMPETE). Its like the Premier League having roflmatches vs the Swedish football league (no offense to Swedes!). A guy who just practices in his room cannot compete with the infrastructure, training and support that a gaming-house professional receives. Period. It makes no sense and doesnt accomplish anything apart from handed out prize money and happy organisers/ sponsors who are out for a quick buck, who capitalise on the sudden interest in MC, MKP, NesTea but are not interested in preserving that interest. If they did, they would realise that this has got to stop or there will be nobody left watching. Why bother hosting a GSL-in-disguise anyway. 4. There is no doubt that LoL and the forthcoming Diablo 3 are eating away at SC2. In combination with quite a few imbalances that the game has, people are surely getting disinterested in the game. My opinion obviously. | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
Fact: there is no gene that makes someone good at starcraft. The scene isn't dominated by people who were born with 6 fingers which gives them an edge in playing the game.People also (imo) aren't born good at sc2. I don't think Flash was gifted with sc skills; I think he practices extremely hard and thinks about the game and is subsequently rewarded for it. That being said, if we're seriously looking at why there are more new koreans as opposed to foreigners, I think it is much more cultural rather than this "foreigners are just lazy and awful". Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like sc is much more of an acceptable career choice in Korea than it is here. Compare mid tier/ potentially good pros (qxc and spanishiwa come to mind) to the koreans and it seems like one group goes to college and the other doesn't. People like Squirtle, Alive, Keen, Taeja, Jjakji, are all 17-19 years old. All of them can sustain livings off of sc2, so why does one group have a "back up" and the other doesn't? It's simply not a norm, and not accepted by many in the foreign scene to play video games for a living. It's so incredibly hard to do something like sc2 comfortably if your parents aren't supportive and that kind of thing can take the heart out of a competitor. | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
On April 21 2012 09:26 phiinix wrote: We can invest in more qualifiers, but I don't think that automatically translates to "new blood", 2nd generation foreigners, or whatever you want to call it. Fact: there is no gene that makes someone good at starcraft. The scene isn't dominated by people who were born with 6 fingers which gives them an edge in playing the game.People also (imo) aren't born good at sc2. I don't think Flash was gifted with sc skills; I think he practices extremely hard and thinks about the game and is subsequently rewarded for it. That being said, if we're seriously looking at why there are more new koreans as opposed to foreigners, I think it is much more cultural rather than this "foreigners are just lazy and awful". Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like sc is much more of an acceptable career choice in Korea than it is here. Compare mid tier/ potentially good pros (qxc and spanishiwa come to mind) to the koreans and it seems like one group goes to college and the other doesn't. People like Squirtle, Alive, Keen, Taeja, Jjakji, are all 17-19 years old. All of them can sustain livings off of sc2, so why does one group have a "back up" and the other doesn't? It's simply not a norm, and not accepted by many in the foreign scene to play video games for a living. It's so incredibly hard to do something like sc2 comfortably if your parents aren't supportive and that kind of thing can take the heart out of a competitor. Definitely not more accepted, Korean parents practically disown their kid if they say "I want to be a progamer" and for every successful progamer there are b-teamers that throw away their youth, education and prospect with nothing to show for it, not even making a salary | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On April 21 2012 03:15 ninazerg wrote: I read the whole thing! Where is my cookie!? Part of me wants to agree with this, and part me wants to disagree... it's weird. He doesn't even promise a cookie; you got my hopes up T_T | ||
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BearStorm
United States795 Posts
On April 21 2012 05:44 Jumperer wrote: This wouldn't be a problem at all if sc2 was entertaining to watch. Haha I wanted to say something similar. I think SC2 is entertaining to watch, just not anywhere near as entertaining as BW. I like watching BW players in SC2 generally because they had a lot more history from the very beginning. In SC2 it is a lot more important for me to know the player to enjoy the game because I don't find the battles as entertaining. However I will say I find SC2 strategies and subtle movements just as intriguing. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On April 21 2012 09:29 rift wrote: Definitely not more accepted, Korean parents practically disown their kid if they say "I want to be a progamer" and for every successful progamer there are b-teamers that throw away their youth, education and prospect with nothing to show for it, not even making a salary I agree that it's not more accepted by korean parents, but I think it's more accepted by the youth and seen as a realistic possibility to them so there will be (and already are obviously) more young korean amateurs who take the game very seriously trying to become progamers. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Does sc2 really needs a east vs west story ? If so, that's pretty ridiculous. Maybe if some casters and even, in my opinion, some writers here on tl did not have that pretty annoying pro-foreigner bias, people might get interested in those "faceless koreans". They are not inherently less interesting than western people. Yeah I know, people like to root for the underdogs, people like to root for people from their country, blablabla. You don't need that to cheer for someone. You just need to get to know them somehow. And if westerners rise to the korean challenge, that's perfect with me. But I wouldn't bet on it, as it only seem to get worse with time, and the gap used to be narrower at some points in bw. Exactly because korean team seem care more about being good at the game rather than promotion. Yeah, that's probably what you're complaining about, but then again, on short term it's probably the most rationnal attitude for foreign team. | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
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omgimonfire15
United States233 Posts
On April 21 2012 09:26 phiinix wrote: We can invest in more qualifiers, but I don't think that automatically translates to "new blood", 2nd generation foreigners, or whatever you want to call it. Fact: there is no gene that makes someone good at starcraft. The scene isn't dominated by people who were born with 6 fingers which gives them an edge in playing the game.People also (imo) aren't born good at sc2. I don't think Flash was gifted with sc skills; I think he practices extremely hard and thinks about the game and is subsequently rewarded for it. That being said, if we're seriously looking at why there are more new koreans as opposed to foreigners, I think it is much more cultural rather than this "foreigners are just lazy and awful". Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like sc is much more of an acceptable career choice in Korea than it is here. Compare mid tier/ potentially good pros (qxc and spanishiwa come to mind) to the koreans and it seems like one group goes to college and the other doesn't. People like Squirtle, Alive, Keen, Taeja, Jjakji, are all 17-19 years old. All of them can sustain livings off of sc2, so why does one group have a "back up" and the other doesn't? It's simply not a norm, and not accepted by many in the foreign scene to play video games for a living. It's so incredibly hard to do something like sc2 comfortably if your parents aren't supportive and that kind of thing can take the heart out of a competitor. You shouldn't say something is a fact without stating evidence. Although it does not directly mean SC2, IQ has been found to have a genetic component, but across people in general, not races. But I believe that the reason why the 2nd generation is not rising, is because the people most suited for SC2 don't even know about the game or don't even consider it. Korea is pretty small, I would be almost everyone knows about SC2 and many have tried it in a PC bang. Look at america on the other hand. I believe people went around Los Vegas during IPL4 and asked people what starcraft was and they thought it was a brand of boat. I honestly think the people who would love starcraft, and be good at the game, but they go their entire lives without knowing about it. Also in terms of career, for every 17 year old prodigy, there are like 10 B teamers who don't make money who have thrown away everything to try and be a progamer. Progaming is more of a recognized occupation in Korea, (not necessarily more accepted by your family and peers) compared to the US where it is not accepted by family, friends, and the culture. | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Eventually, the nameless players who deserve face, recognition and fans will get them, and those who were one hit wonders, not top tier etc, will not. Boxer didnt come along with 1 million fans ^_^ Once they've made a name for themselves, and those players have their fan base, are getting the funding needed to attend etc, it wont be an issue at all. What you call stunting SC2's growth, i call the calm before the storm, i truely believe its the lull before a growth spurt. The old generation of bw gamers couldnt last forever, this is just the transition period IMO. | ||
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Zeller
United States1109 Posts
Where else in the world can you eat, shit, and sleep Starcraft like Korea? I tune out of every tournament when there's no foreigners left. It's true, casual fans like myself just aren't interested in the "robots" dominating more tournaments. | ||
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