|
On April 22 2012 05:02 LesPhoques wrote:
That's the reason I stopped following foreign tournaments. I liked earlier formats where we had 1-4 Koreans and rest foreigners and there still was a chance for few foreign players to shine. As of late, we have dozens of Korean players and half of them aren't even popular among fans and they completely dominate all foreign events, so it got boring.
I am not a nationalist, I am asian myself but it just got boring to see Koreans rape white people.
This has nothing to do with race. If Illusion or Select (being of course Asian) won a recent tournament I dont think anybody would say "oh yeah another progamer takes it". These guys are well known in N.A. and with many loyal fans. Lets face it: Alive? Come on...
|
The Korean reaction to IPL4 was funny, they were saying "fucking kimchimen" (referring to themselves) and were tired of taking all the top spots
|
You have some valid points, good read, i agree.
|
Generalities do suck, I actually like when unknowns get into the spotlight rather than the same 10 guys over and over.
|
BBoongbboong has 38,000 GSL off the record views
Alive has 16,000
This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
|
So what to do about it? The solution would be to invite less koreans I guess. Or, as Puma says, the foreigners just practicing more so they can close the skill gap.
If we have a tournament with few foreigners there might occur the problem that less people watch it because they do not like the lower level of play once a foreigner is involved. I myself will not watch random foreigners playing. To do such I could just tune in to one random small tourney that is running.
In the end we might just as well say the koreans are better than non koreans...
|
I agree with most of the points made. Also I think SC2 would benefit from a really dominant presence. A Flash, a Jaedong, or something of the like. Look at Golf for example, it only gets exposure to casuals when Tiger is in it and winning it because he's been such a dominating presence in the game for so many years. Sure the hardcores like seeing the Bubba Watson's of the world winning, but the casuals wanna see Tiger dominate. I think the existence of one dominant player over a long period of time would help as well. (This additionally takes away from the "Faceless Koreans" effect, as it's not faceless koreans, but OMFGIT'SFLASH-type koreans.)
|
Your point about no foreigners= casual viewers stop watching is completely true. I'm even like that, if it's just going to be two Koreans duking it out in the finals I don't watch. That's just me, I want to be involved with it somehow. I even left MLG Anaheim a day early to save on hotel costs because it was going to be a day full of Korean games.
|
Basically we need longer, more consistently-scheduled tournaments. These random 3 day events are bad for the scene in the long-term. GSL is the only thing we have and even that has some format issues. I think day9 has said it before on SOTG; we need more tournaments like OSL and MSL where we can get to know each individual player. This would solve the "faceless Korean" problem because they're no longer anonymous to us. I have no fucking idea what style 85% of the Koreans play because I don't see them on a regular basis that allows them to prepare for matches. Nobody knows how the hell squirtle plays or bbongbbong plays coz we dont see them enough.
|
Another thing that plexa didn't bring up was the releasing of replays. Think about it: Koreans don't release replays whatsoever. Foreigners do. This results in people who cannot or do not want to follow the GSL completely unaware of the korean players that are out there which leads to me not really caring about them in any way because I simply do not know ANYTHING about them.
On the other hand, foreigners DO release replays. Most of them at least. And that leads to them having a good fanbase that will tune in just to see them. The same applies for live streaming. The problem with releasing replays and building a fanbase however is that it makes players vulnerable. People can analyze them.
And thats another huge part of the problem. In fact the main problem. While foreign players simply have more interest in getting fans behind them the korean players watch their replays and tear them apart. And what this leads to is organizers having to invite popular foreigners and good koreans to get their tournament some sort of respectable gameplay and actual vievers.
I have no idea how this problem could be solved but I think if korean players sent more replays to commentators they could get HUGE fanbases (nooooo there's no such person has LiquidHerO who sent replays to husky and is loved etc...) so the nationality of the players would not matter that mutch anymore (dont get me wrong though I will always cheer for Socke and Goody. Goody mostly because of his bio-refusal. He's awesome.)
|
On April 22 2012 09:27 TotalNightmare wrote:
I have no idea how this problem could be solved but I think if korean players sent more replays to commentators they could get HUGE fanbases (nooooo there's no such person has LiquidHerO who sent replays to husky and is loved etc...)
Never going to happen. There is no reason for a korean to be showing replays to anyone besides people on their team
|
Very interesting and very true article. I stopped watching IPL4 when Stephano lost, and no, I am by no means a casual. I play sc2 quite a bit, watching it almost everyday. If there's no tournament, ill turn on a stream; if there are no interesting streams, ill read TL and Reddit. Yet even as a hardcore fan, I found it quite boring when there are 5 koreans left in the tournament, and even more so when Alive and Squirtle are in the Grand finals.
I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that these two are just not very stylistic in terms of play. I know who they are, I know what they've accomplished, and I know they are pretty damn good. However, the lack of story is what turned me off. There is no storyline between the two, and no history to speak of.
For example, I used to ignore polt like everyone else, because he, like many other korean terrans, lacks a personality that stands out. Yet when the rivalry between his and stephano started to brew, i started to follow him more and more.
In Esports, storyline is sometimes more important than prize money and great games for the fans.
|
On April 21 2012 03:04 Plexa wrote:
It is very difficult for new players to break into the scene as the ‘faceless Korean’ invasion into foreign tournaments creates an enormous barrier to entry for them. Even if they enter, it is highly likely they won’t make it far because they will run into a Korean and lose. As such, the ‘second generation’ of foreign progamers never came about and all the fame, glory and money is tied up with the first generation. Indeed, some of these first generation pros are no longer remotely good at this game. Use your imagination as to whom I’m talking about.
Great post Plexa!
I would also suggest a contributing factor is that most tournament formats are incredibly cruel towards up and comers. MLG's in general puts a huge handicap on those not in pool play and their end of season championship was atrocious. These players need a boost if anything and they wind up at a massive handicap towards players who already have more than them (money, fame, support). Faceless Koreans not only make this worse (the qualifiers become more treacherous) but since they are skilled enough to brave the gauntlet with fortune on their side, it hides how truly difficult it is.
Tournaments have also done a shit-poor job at introducing us to players. Players known for their personalities demonstrate it themselves, even the Korean ones. Throughout all of IPL4, the only time alive was asked anything other than "are you confident for your next match?" was when Nestea (ever the boss) jokingly accused him of poisoning his ramen. Tournaments should realize Nestea is a little too busy being one of the best Zergs in the world and maintaining the fabric of space/time, so hire someone capable making the stage interesting between games.
|
i never understood why tournaments have to have a open bracket.
just do country/region tournaments online
and with that you also help teams and players out who payed 2k to fly over and not even get on stage to represent them self.
with that you would also get a fixed number of seeds.
i would rather watch a foreigner getting smashed by a korean then a korean getting smashed by korean.
and the argument that kr vs kr matches are better does not work here because the format doesn't allows it
you can't compare a gsl match with lots of preparation to a 3day tournament were you play 20 games.
in the gsl you can showcase how good and prepared you are and in foreigner tournaments you show how solid you are.
whatever i don't see it change anytime soon so fuck it.
|
The later half of the argument seems to stem from a view that equality > freedom. As in the equality of players should come before the freedom of all players to play in qualifiers. I have believed in freedom > equality my entire life. And as such I completely disagree with this stance.
Esports is a business, and yes a business has to be sustainable I.e. pleasing fans. But whenever i hear tournament organizers or team execs talking its always about more money towards the players, more fame for the players, more everything for the actual players. Gating qualifiers takes away the freedom of esports, you are taking away livelihood from koreans and giving it to foreigners. This is good for the business of Esports but contradicts what I've heard countless times in interviews with the higher ups of players first. Is it needed? debatable. is it just? i dont think so. Because freedom is always superior to equality
|
It would be so sick if the top 10 of every tournament became 60/40, 40/60 (alternating forever) foreigner/"asian"
|
On April 22 2012 07:40 Tachion wrote:
BBoongbboong has 38,000 GSL off the record views
Alive has 16,000
This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
It's not b4's fault that hes a lot funnier than alive :<
|
On April 22 2012 09:45 Mioraka wrote:
For example, I used to ignore polt like everyone else, because he, like many other korean terrans, lacks a personality that stands out. Yet when the rivalry between his and stephano started to brew, i started to follow him more and more.
Polt has an amazing personality that's easily detectable in his English interviews; it's just that no one knew about it
|
On April 21 2012 04:01 LunaSea wrote:
Ouaou, such a hate bandwagon against IPL !
Hot news guys : Team Liquid bought by MLG !
(I can't figure another reason than this ...)
I'm sure that the OP is the kind of guys that "plays as the marine" like Sundance or loves the "ZvG" matchup.
I didn't play Brood War nor followed any eSports before Starcraft 2 but I would prefer to have a small but dedicated community than a 100 million casuals that care more about nationality than skill level.
AHAH thanks for the laugh !
On topic : I put a lot of quotes in spoilers. Some more interesting than others but here's what i think about all of this so far :
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 05:44 Jumperer wrote:
This wouldn't be a problem at all if sc2 was entertaining to watch.
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote:
I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way. On April 21 2012 05:59 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
When I watched the SKT v KT Proleague Grand Finals, it wasn't just a Bo7 match. It was a clash of two storied histories. A massive grudge between two fan bases coming to a head.
When Fantasy stepped up to Flash, it wasn't just a TvT. It was a culmination of years of jockeying for throne of Terran. It was the evolution of the Bo8 from two years ago when Flash and Fantasy had to face each other in WCG and MSL elimination on the same day.
And when Bisu walked up to face Flash, it wasn't a PvT. It was a culmination of the collective hopes and dreams of each team into the arena. We know who they were. We knew what they stood for. The match was more than just Starcraft. There was a massive context that created emotion and meaning.
I don't feel that watching SC2. I know who Ssak was and his story behind his Valk victory over Flash and his crushing defeat by ggaemo. I know about By.Sun. Or the aggressive TurN, and how Action picked himself up. I don't know how Squirtle is or why I should care about him. I've only heard of Illusion in passing and know litle else. If you're good, you should be able to rise and get shown the spotlight. We talk about the Royal Road in the OSL and there's massive scrutiny when someone new breaks into the Ro16. I have no clue who is Royal Roading in MLG.
It makes me sad. I don't want just good games. I can get that from watching replays. I want emotion in my games. I want meaning. I want something I can relate to as a fan. I want that connection.
- I think the main interest for the majority of the viewers has little to do with the sport itself, it's more the players or the club they're cheering for. The majority of the viewers ( = casuals ) have little interest in the details and are more interested in what they see on the screen / the personalities. If every SC2 game would swing around like flash vs bisu in the proleague finals, the viewing experience would be better. If startale and IM had the stories SKT and KT have, the games would be different ( although that isn't really a good example since the only real somewhat famous team league in SC2 is the GSTL and it's not half as popular as the GSL unlike proleague / osl )
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 07:11 Chef wrote:
Even if it's just MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, NASL, and however many Codes of GSL there are, you pretty much have to make a career out of being a viewer to follow it all and thinned out the best players across too many tournaments.
- I feel like the SC2 scene is overall very scattered, there's always something to watch, sure but what to watch ? BW only had Proleague ( team league ) OSL and MSL. I don't know how many online tournaments there are, but i've seen a couple of afreeca restreams, including one in which savior played, but BW will always be OSL MSL PROLEAGUE, in the foreign scene you have all the GO4SC2s and playhems plus the ZOTAC and everything, and then there's this huge amount of actual big names like dreamhack IPL MLG + GSL GSTL. I think it'd be better if we had less events but bigger ones. ( that has nothing to do with GO4SC2 / ZOTAC / Playhem, i used them merely to compare those situations )
+ Show Spoiler +On April 22 2012 07:40 Tachion wrote:
BBoongbboong has 38,000 GSL off the record views
Alive has 16,000
This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
- This is something that i've seen everywhere in SC2 and in this blog too : people aren't that interested in skill and more in stories / personalities. Seriously take a look at destiny and tell me i'm wrong. It feels to me like the scene doesn't reward those who try really hard and gives waaaaaay too much to those who don't do sh*t
+ Show Spoiler +On April 22 2012 09:27 TotalNightmare wrote:
Another thing that plexa didn't bring up was the releasing of replays. Think about it: Koreans don't release replays whatsoever. Foreigners do. This results in people who cannot or do not want to follow the GSL completely unaware of the korean players that are out there which leads to me not really caring about them in any way because I simply do not know ANYTHING about them.
And thats another huge part of the problem. In fact the main problem. While foreign players simply have more interest in getting fans behind them the korean players watch their replays and tear them apart. And what this leads to is organizers having to invite popular foreigners and good koreans to get their tournament some sort of respectable gameplay and actual viewers.
- This seems like a detail ( and it probably is ) but it goes toward the "foreigner => building up a good image / korean => being good ". Also noteworthy naniwa did complain somewhere about not being able to find a good practice partner that won't leak replays and such.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 21:21 avilo wrote:
Been saying it for ages, people want "SC2 to grow" yet the scene keeps inviting the same 30-40 players to their tournaments. Make everything open, make everyone earn it. That simple. No excuses. If a big name gets knocked out by an unknown player...guess what? That player is probably good...and perhaps that "known" player was overhyped and the unknown will become known.
No tournament right now has the balls to make their tournament 100% open because they want short term "e-sports prosperity" for a few instead of giving everyone, including 100% unknowns/unestablished players a chance to make it.
And no, you cannot say TSL3 was 100% open - it also had many invites. I will give you credit that TSL3 has been the most open tournament to date though.
As for the "koreans killing e-sports thing," I also agree 100% about that and how that makes entry even more difficult for "second gen foreign pros." People already made posts/blogs about this ages ago, how it's utterly stupid to basically hand koreans all foreign money. I believe catz was one of the most outspoken people on the issue, but forum warriors and "e-sports evangelists" simply pitchforked and said everyone was being racist.
How does anyone expect a foreign scene, let alone the entire scene to grow if every single prize purse is basically going to korean players from established korean teams etc. It makes little jonny USA/every foreign team basically say, "wow, fuck sending players to LANs." To get to these big events to "make a name for yourself" is a huge gamble even for the best players due to bracket luck + the mass korean invasion. 400+ dollars for hotel/plane/whatever, you get there, knocked out by a korean and you gain zero exposure, no casted matches, etc...do the math. You would be better off investing that money in online poker.
So yeah, I basically agree but i've said it before and a few other brave souls have about how the scene needs to have open tournaments not this invite bs. Make everyone earn their stay in the scene, and if they are at the cream of the crop then they will re-qualify regardless. Don't just hand it to them and say "fuck you" to the unknown / new players that are looking to make a name for themselves.
Nothing is going to change on this though, I highly doubt it. Because tournaments want that short term viewership boost, they are going to keep giving hand-outs to get exposure/audience for their tournament. Foreign e-sports is an old gentlemen's club right now tbh.
- THIS ! THIS ! Please give more chances to those who deserve it, please try to build something on the LONG TERM, that will ( hopefully, tho i know it won't ) last long, you know like OSL long ? Like over a decade long ? Instead of trying to milk a buisness now and ruin opportunities for the future. I think there are plenty of good or at least decent foreigners who would show their skill if they were given more opportunities. I will agree that things like GO4SC2, playhem and Zotac gives players a chance to be " recognized " and hopefully be picked up by a good team but then what ? Then they have to go through an open bracket that is stacked with really good players, and hopefully they can get noticed before being smashed by a korean.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 03:34 NB wrote:*My comment is a bit off topic but i just wana add this in* you might wana check out the current growth of dota2... its 5 times faster than sc2 and once the game is merged into the gigantic chinese market, i dont think sc2 will remains the king of esports like what it is today. Blizzard has done nothing good for esports. SC2 is a game we are forced to play in 2009 as a starcraft community but it has never been the game we deserved to have after spending more than a decades supporting BW, a game which the whole world except south korea thought was dead. Riot, Valve are doing the right things: LAN support, Free to Play, Gigantic prize pool and a none stop improving, listening their games based on the community feed back. Remember it took blizzard 1 years to implement the chat channel system which existed in 1998? The phoenix lifting bug inside sc2 for 3-4 patches for a period of 4 months? Well it tooks valve 2 weeks to change their entire shop UI in dota2 after beta officially launched. Blizzard today, is not the blizzard we knew in 1998. With the incoming of some strong titles such as DotA2, CS:go, LoL... it would be a miracle if blizzard could fix their mistakes with the upcoming HoTS. The BNet 0.2 is now officially implemented in Diablo 3 and most likely will stay for HoTS and it is a virus that is killing esports. Have a great summer plexa, Love you! 
- Finally this : if ACTIVISION BLIZZARD cared, if they would try and support the game a bit, if they would give us what we ask for and listen like valve, riot games or hirez studio for instance the game would be better, have a steady growth and possibly last longer. ACTIVISION BLIZZARD would also make more money since THEY do ask for a license for tournaments to play / broadcast starcraft games
|
On April 22 2012 11:06 beatitudes wrote:
The later half of the argument seems to stem from a view that equality > freedom. As in the equality of players should come before the freedom of all players to play in qualifiers. I have believed in freedom > equality my entire life. And as such I completely disagree with this stance.
Esports is a business, and yes a business has to be sustainable I.e. pleasing fans. But whenever i hear tournament organizers or team execs talking its always about more money towards the players, more fame for the players, more everything for the actual players. Gating qualifiers takes away the freedom of esports, you are taking away livelihood from koreans and giving it to foreigners. This is good for the business of Esports but contradicts what I've heard countless times in interviews with the higher ups of players first. Is it needed? debatable. is it just? i dont think so. Because freedom is always superior to equality
Relax, helping the foreign scene develop isn't a step towards socialism.
Think of it like when the US was extremely protectionist during the 19th century in order to allow its own industry to develop (before they became a super power that promotes free trade so that they could profit off of its developed industry  ).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
