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Stunted Growth of SC2 - Page 8

Blogs > Plexa
Post a Reply
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Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
April 21 2012 14:18 GMT
#141
Koreans were always going to overtake everyone else. People knew this from day one. It was just a matter of time before it happened. SC2 might be a little more sporadic, but the consistent results of Koreans winning isn't because there's not enough talent being shown in the foreign scene, it's just that they're better.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
killerdog
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark6522 Posts
April 21 2012 15:53 GMT
#142
This reminds me of the old "final edits" articles on tl. Have those just stopped being written (rplaced with featured blogs?) because if not this deserves to be one. I love reading well thought out opinion pieces like this, even if i don't neccesarily agree with everything said, seeing a properly formulated argument is nice enough in itself
Sejanus
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Lithuania550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-21 16:14:21
April 21 2012 16:11 GMT
#143
The "real" sports / competitions usually have a clear distinction between casual, pro-wannabe and pro levels. Not so in SC2. Imagine for a second that a young basketball talents wishing to make it big in Basketball must (1) gather into a 12 men team on their own and (2) go to NBA to fight against Chicago Bulls and Miami Heat and so on. If they don't beat at least a few top level NBA teams they aren't even noticed.

Sounds retarded? Well that's what we have in SC2 at the moment.
Friends don't let friends massacre civilians
beamingrobot
Profile Joined October 2010
United States685 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-21 16:29:36
April 21 2012 16:28 GMT
#144
You could blame it on "nameless koreans" taking away everything, but as Plexa said , and I agree we should do things more like Code S in one aspect, ruthlessly weed out weaker players and allowing newer ones to come into the scene. But I guess sometimes we're more interested in mindless drama than in better players.

Also, regarding that East vs West thing that's been going on in SC2. I don't enjoy it one bit, it gives "foreigners", whatever that means a chance to blame it on others than to figure out new ways to improve.

People are only nameless when you want them to be so, it takes effort but we could find out more about these "nameless koreans" and really good foreigners who are routinely ignored.
EienShinwa
Profile Joined May 2010
United States655 Posts
April 21 2012 16:50 GMT
#145
On April 21 2012 03:34 NB wrote:
*My comment is a bit off topic but i just wana add this in*

you might wana check out the current growth of dota2... its 5 times faster than sc2 and once the game is merged into the gigantic chinese market, i dont think sc2 will remains the king of esports like what it is today.

Blizzard has done nothing good for esports. SC2 is a game we are forced to play in 2009 as a starcraft community but it has never been the game we deserved to have after spending more than a decades supporting BW, a game which the whole world except south korea thought was dead. Riot, Valve are doing the right things: LAN support, Free to Play, Gigantic prize pool and a none stop improving, listening their games based on the community feed back. Remember it took blizzard 1 years to implement the chat channel system which existed in 1998? The phoenix lifting bug inside sc2 for 3-4 patches for a period of 4 months? Well it tooks valve 2 weeks to change their entire shop UI in dota2 after beta officially launched.

Blizzard today, is not the blizzard we knew in 1998. With the incoming of some strong titles such as DotA2, CS:go, LoL... it would be a miracle if blizzard could fix their mistakes with the upcoming HoTS. The BNet 0.2 is now officially implemented in Diablo 3 and most likely will stay for HoTS and it is a virus that is killing esports.

Have a great summer plexa,
Love you!


I just want to say that this is 100% on the mark. The leader of E-Sports will not be SCII if Dustin Browder keeps on with his stupid obsession called TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE and destructible rocks. No, the leader will be MOBAs, like it or not, if this trend continues with no LAN support, shitty UI, and a clear divide between the company (Blizzard) and us, the consumers/fans.
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. Alice Roosevelt Longworth
xtfftc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom2343 Posts
April 21 2012 16:51 GMT
#146
You forget to mention one of the main reasons - foreign teams invest their money in "second generation" Koreans and not foreigners. So, for example, instead of Random Foreign Team getting 4 foreign players to a tournament, they get 2 foreigners/2 Koreans. Combined with the other Korean attendees, the foreigners don't get as many chances.

I remember Idra talking about how the EG management doesn't think it's worth it to invest in undeveloped foreigners for some reason and according to them it would be better to focus on the few "stars"... Which might be the best thing for EG (buy the best players > milk them as much as possible for maximum profits > use the money gained to buy the new best players) but it's very bad for the long term future of the scene.
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
April 21 2012 17:02 GMT
#147
I didn't mind IPL 4 quite frankly, as aLive clearly showed that he was a strong, top-tiered played who deserved to win. Squirtle also demonstrated great play, and his story as someone who made an improbable run from the Open Bracket and the sympathy for Startale following the disconnect in the GSTL did earn him a lot of fans.While aLive did win in the end, Squirte's comeback in the first Bo5 was truly entertaining to watch.

I felt that the "nameless Korean" issue was a bigger problem at IPL 3. Of course, fan favorites MC and Huk were both knocked out in PvPs by an unknown Inori. Lucky, at least for me, was an even bigger spoiler. Even though he beat Boxer, had it not been for a lucky baneling detonation Boxer would have 2-0 him. Seeing Boxer eliminated from the tournament with a roach-ling all in was actually quite sad for me.

Lucky proceeded to take out fan favorites Ret and then MMA. The series with MMA were particularly disappointing. If Lucky had simply outplayed MMA, he could have created an amazing underdog story for himself, and won himself many fans. Instead, he just cheesed 3 games to the finals (MMA should not have played so greedy either and anticipated better, but whatever). Yes, MMA is the world's best TvZ player, and Lucky didn't really have a realistic chance to beat him in 3 straight up games, and cheesing was the best chance for him to advance. But for the viewer perspective (which isn't as important as winning, but still important), it was anticlimatic.

IPL 3 was redeemed in a way because the foreigner Stephano crushed Lucky 4-0 in a ZvZ. People loved the ending, because the foreign hero came through, and crushed the Korean opponent. But what if Stephano had been Korean? The finals would have been a very anti-climatic 4-0 ZvZ stomp between 2 Koreans.

Just my thoughts
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Dundron2000
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden1140 Posts
April 21 2012 17:33 GMT
#148
to some extent i think foreigners and koreans alike have failed heavily in the showmanship department and alot of the players lack charisma. alive and squirtle are two shining examples of the extremely bland side of the player spectrum. some players have personality sure (idra, stephano for example) but even they dont seem to realize or want to make the effort to cultivate this further and creating a "stage persona." players should adress this. granted it probably felt silly to do so in the first year of sc2 because the lack of good tournament production. but i think its an important element to creating interesting story lines, dynamic characters. step it up!
n.Die_Jaedong
Telcontar
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom16710 Posts
April 21 2012 19:06 GMT
#149
On April 22 2012 01:50 EienShinwa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 03:34 NB wrote:
*My comment is a bit off topic but i just wana add this in*

you might wana check out the current growth of dota2... its 5 times faster than sc2 and once the game is merged into the gigantic chinese market, i dont think sc2 will remains the king of esports like what it is today.

Blizzard has done nothing good for esports. SC2 is a game we are forced to play in 2009 as a starcraft community but it has never been the game we deserved to have after spending more than a decades supporting BW, a game which the whole world except south korea thought was dead. Riot, Valve are doing the right things: LAN support, Free to Play, Gigantic prize pool and a none stop improving, listening their games based on the community feed back. Remember it took blizzard 1 years to implement the chat channel system which existed in 1998? The phoenix lifting bug inside sc2 for 3-4 patches for a period of 4 months? Well it tooks valve 2 weeks to change their entire shop UI in dota2 after beta officially launched.

Blizzard today, is not the blizzard we knew in 1998. With the incoming of some strong titles such as DotA2, CS:go, LoL... it would be a miracle if blizzard could fix their mistakes with the upcoming HoTS. The BNet 0.2 is now officially implemented in Diablo 3 and most likely will stay for HoTS and it is a virus that is killing esports.

Have a great summer plexa,
Love you!


I just want to say that this is 100% on the mark. The leader of E-Sports will not be SCII if Dustin Browder keeps on with his stupid obsession called TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE and destructible rocks. No, the leader will be MOBAs, like it or not, if this trend continues with no LAN support, shitty UI, and a clear divide between the company (Blizzard) and us, the consumers/fans.

Tbh, I don't think Blizzactivision really cares about SC2. They've already stated how they hate the fact that it brings in no money past the initial sale. In fact, they probably want you to switch over to Diablo 3 and get addicted to farming for their auction house. They'll release the expansions out of obligation, but don't expect things to change.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
leperphilliac
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States399 Posts
April 21 2012 19:37 GMT
#150
Agreed, also another problem is that there are just too many damned events.

Look at BW, OSLs and MSLs (RIP) happen extremely rarely, and can really cultivate a story. Look at Stork, I mean, he (and most BW players) are probably not much different personality wise from their SC2 counterparts (yes they do play a different game on 12 different higher levels but we're talking about casual viewers here), yet nobody'd think he's a nameless Korean. If Squirtle and Alive were battling it out on the OSL you can bet people wouldn't view them as "nameless Koreans" anymore. As it stands there are so many events they're starting to overlap with each other, like right now Dreamhack and MLG. I KNOW why GOM needs to have so many tournaments (to support the players who otherwise couldn't support themselves) but still, SKMC, 3 time GSL winner, vs Bisu, 3 time MSL winner. Their achievements don't even compare.
thehepp
Profile Joined December 2011
United States67 Posts
April 21 2012 19:43 GMT
#151
Do I enjoy watching foreigners do well? yes
Do I enjoy watching highly competitive starcraft? yes
For me I would rather watch the highest level possible and if that means koreans with a few foreigner than so be it. That comes from my highly competitive nature. I would rather watch the best koreans even if it be players who seem boring like squirtle or alive than foreigners who are maybe sub par in comparison.
.Carnage
Profile Joined August 2010
United States99 Posts
April 21 2012 19:47 GMT
#152
How do Koreans go from "unknown" to "known" if not playing in tournaments? :| SC2 is still a young game, we are just starting to establish reputations for players.
He's just not the fastest zergling in the control group. -DayJ
mewbert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States291 Posts
April 21 2012 19:59 GMT
#153
it shouldnt be on the tournaments to not invite koreans, it should be on the teams to not let their players play xbox games and other casual things asll day
LesPhoques
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada782 Posts
April 21 2012 20:02 GMT
#154
That's the reason I stopped following foreign tournaments. I liked earlier formats where we had 1-4 Koreans and rest foreigners and there still was a chance for few foreign players to shine. As of late, we have dozens of Korean players and half of them aren't even popular among fans and they completely dominate all foreign events, so it got boring.

I am not a nationalist, I am asian myself but it just got boring to see Koreans rape white people.
straycat
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
230 Posts
April 21 2012 20:07 GMT
#155
Interesting thoughts on how koreans and an established, "sub-par" generation of foreign pro-gamers might lead to foreigner stagnation.

As for the "faceless" koreans tho I agree inasmuch as the MLG final felt very lackluster (I did not even watch it), but on the other hand I have come to know various Korean players to the extent that they feel as familiar as (some of the) foreigner players. And, as I have come to know them more, I would consider a final between any of those as more interesting than a final between two unknown (to me) foreign players.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
April 21 2012 20:53 GMT
#156
If you watch the ESV Korean Weekly you will always know who every single one of these "faceless" koreans are and you will enjoy the matches!!

Watch the Korean Weekly!!!

/shameless plug
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Mementoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada2595 Posts
April 21 2012 21:01 GMT
#157
Amazing blog, really interesting view. I agree with almost every point in the article.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu96xMwFVXw
Sanz
Profile Joined December 2010
150 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-21 21:10:51
April 21 2012 21:09 GMT
#158
I've started watching competitive sc with Gsl open 1 and i would say i'm one of those casual viewers.

The first thing i was intrigued by ever since i heard about competitive starcraft was the korean dominance
or rather south korea as the starcraft mekka.
When i talk about sc to other people who have no idea, i tell them about korea and its role in starcraft.
I think most people think that this is interesting.

So for me personally koreans being better at sc is a essential part of the whole starcraft experience.

I think the korean dominance isn't hurting esports at all.
Marddox
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom108 Posts
April 21 2012 21:12 GMT
#159
this is so true, I could probably name most foreigners at code A level but I couldn't do so with Korean code B players.

I've been keeping a close eye onto the GSL recently pretty much just because of Liquid'HerO and Niniwa are still in.
We didn't have no "4 gates" back in the probe drought, no sir! we only had 1 gate, chrono and probes to defend!
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
April 21 2012 21:18 GMT
#160
I paid for MLG, but I find myself more interested in Dreamhack, solely because of all the little stories.

I don't think we need East vs West specifically, I think we need a story, something to glom onto. This is true in BW as well (See how many SC2 fans watched the last OSL finals because of Legend of the Fall hype. I think one of BW's biggest issues is that it's been "Flash vs Everyone" for so long).

There's no real way to force this kind of drama (except by reading meaning into statistics as appropriate), but an Open Bracket tends to produce them. There are positive stories (Scarlett) and negative stories (Sase controversy in Dreamhack), but now I have a reason to be interested in those two specific players. Open Brackets tend to generate these kind of thing naturally, and I think it's good for the scene.
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