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On April 21 2012 05:44 Jumperer wrote:
This wouldn't be a problem at all if sc2 was entertaining to watch.
I think it would still be a problem in SC2s case because most of the tournaments and money is coming from foreign sources, not Korean ones.
That's why I think SC2 is ultimately doomed. Korean interest is low, foreign involvement is high, but Korean players are becoming more and more dominant. Eventually it's just going to be Korean players in foreign tournaments, and I don't know who is going to watch that.
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I had been thinking about this problem a bit myself, and I think Plexa definitely hits the nail on the head. I don't think Koreans have all that much of an inherent advantage these days. We're seeing gaming houses and talented players practicing with dedicated partners for hours at a time in the foreigner scene, but this hasn't led to an explosion of talent and skill in already-entrenched players. At the same time, players like Stephano who manage to get that big break become enormous seemingly out of nowhere. What we lack is the ability to weed out the lesser players from the potentially great ones, and where in Korea we see players like FruitDealer disappear entirely, that hasn't been the case for players like <insert consistently underperforming pro of choice here>. And meanwhile, players who might have had a shot had they been "bred" properly have to fight these koreans that have managed to unseat the former greats and received te proper suppprt to become even better. Formats like MLG's seeding system last year definitely exacerbated this issue.
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Totally agree with this Blog Post.
When I watched the SKT v KT Proleague Grand Finals, it wasn't just a Bo7 match. It was a clash of two storied histories. A massive grudge between two fan bases coming to a head.
When Fantasy stepped up to Flash, it wasn't just a TvT. It was a culmination of years of jockeying for throne of Terran. It was the evolution of the Bo8 from two years ago when Flash and Fantasy had to face each other in WCG and MSL elimination on the same day.
And when Bisu walked up to face Flash, it wasn't a PvT. It was a culmination of the collective hopes and dreams of each team into the arena. We know who they were. We knew what they stood for. The match was more than just Starcraft. There was a massive context that created emotion and meaning.
I don't feel that watching SC2. I know who Ssak was and his story behind his Valk victory over Flash and his crushing defeat by ggaemo. I know about By.Sun. Or the aggressive TurN, and how Action picked himself up. I don't know how Squirtle is or why I should care about him. I've only heard of Illusion in passing and know litle else. If you're good, you should be able to rise and get shown the spotlight. We talk about the Royal Road in the OSL and there's massive scrutiny when someone new breaks into the Ro16. I have no clue who is Royal Roading in MLG.
It makes me sad. I don't want just good games. I can get that from watching replays. I want emotion in my games. I want meaning. I want something I can relate to as a fan. I want that connection.
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I think a huge contributing factor to the "faceless korean" phenomenon is how unsettled the korean scene really is. No one has stepped out as a consistent dominant force for a long time and hence it is hard to market an individual like BW did. Like, MVP and Nestea and MC have all been very good, but none good enough to latch onto as the dominant guy on the scene.
Korean SC2 desperately needs a Flash/Jaedong. I don't follow professional SC that closely anymore, but when I see a tournament billed as the "most competitive ever" and alive/squirte are the finalists it is really hard to get interested. Those guys have solid but uninspiring resumes.
This is true for any sport. I pay attention to tennis finals when federer/nadal/djokovic are making the finals and get bored when it is murray/tsonga or any other solid guy who doesn't capture the imagination of that next level performance.
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I like my fav Koreans, I really do. I don't have a GSL subscription because the games are just played at times I simply can't watch in the US.
But for a tournament to be really exciting for me, it has to be either my top super favorite Koreans- MC, MMA, DRG for example- or some foreigners.
15/16 champ slots for Koreans led to a pretty boring Sunday for IPL4 for me. The most exciting things were Scarlett and Illusions runs, and they didn't even show those.
Sunday ended up being more of a LAN with my buddies than a tourney experience (we apartmentcrafted with beers, a 54" LED with the games, and our comps), with breaks to watch Stephano. If DRG had been on the run instead of Squirtle, I probably would have cared.
But the OP is right. There's just too many good Koreans to be fans of them ALL. Yes, Squirtle has won me some liquibets points. But Squirtle vs Alive? I just didn't care. It was cool to see Bomber again, but man, I could have used some Ret, Thorzain, and NaNiWa in the top there.
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Very well written.
While I love to see the best player win, I can't help but get more excited when it's the foreigner.
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On April 21 2012 06:06 petered wrote:
I think a huge contributing factor to the "faceless korean" phenomenon is how unsettled the korean scene really is. No one has stepped out as a consistent dominant force for a long time and hence it is hard to market an individual like BW did. Like, MVP and Nestea and MC have all been very good, but none good enough to latch onto as the dominant guy on the scene.
Korean SC2 desperately needs a Flash/Jaedong. I don't follow professional SC that closely anymore, but when I see a tournament billed as the "most competitive ever" and alive/squirte are the finalists it is really hard to get interested. Those guys have solid but uninspiring resumes.
This is true for any sport. I pay attention to tennis finals when federer/nadal/djokovic are making the finals and get bored when it is murray/tsonga or any other solid guy who doesn't capture the imagination of that next level performance.
MVP for a lot of 2011 was very dominant. The only problem is and why he has fallen off lately is due to his wrists being super bad. He showed that you can be a dominant player and he was until his wrists got the better of him and he can't pracitce like before. Nestea/MC are good but not as dominant as MVP was for a lot of 2011.
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I agree with the idea that we should get more talent "out". But for that to happen, we should need something which the Korean scene has well developed, something like Courage tournaments, and also a way to survive after becoming a pro: drafts and teamhouses. What is more, we also need an international governing body, something similar to KeSPA(but less crazy), which would and should allow progaming to grow and keep it organised.
Another problem I see with the scene and getting the top-notch international players(I dislike the use of foreigners here) to represent us at major events, is the huge growth which has happened to SC2. There are many smaller competitions(€0-5000), but few major tournaments. The problem with major tournaments is the competition between businesses. The best recent example is the 2 huge international tournaments, Dreamhack and MLG spring arena. They're on exactly the same day, and this shouldn't happen. I'd understand if they were smaller, national level competitions, but they're international. For example, in traditional sports, we wouldn't have to choose between watching either Olympic Games or World Championships. So overlapping and silly competition between organisations is also ruining the growth of SC2(or esports).
Lastly, I'd like to see something similar to Korea's GSL/OSL, which are played by Korea's own players(predominantly), and not by foreigners. If we want international talent, then countries in Europe, America, Africa, Asia(excluding Korea) etc, should have tournaments which allow only that country's competitors where the tournaments is held at. That wouldn't scare the locals and would possibly encourage the growth of SC2(or esports).
Sorry for my bad grammar, I hope that my ideas are at least understandable and make some sense.
Edit: The "faceless korean" is in my opinion a small problem. If there would be 4 koreans, and 20 international players in a tournament, and a "faceless korean" would win, we wouldn't even have the idea of a "faceless korean". Another reason why the "faceless korean" thought has come up, is simply beacuse of the language barrier, the lack of coverage, and the idea of doing an "international tournament" outside korea which is full of koreans,. I'm sure MLG's, IPL's could make some interviews with the "faceless koreans" before the tournament starts, and undo their facelessness.
Edit 2: Grammar
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I feel the faceless Korean syndrome is helped along by the lack of a good team league in Korea. I know nearly every BW pro, at least more than I know Squirtle. I have a chance to see them play on a regular basis due to Proleague, but in the GSL you have to impress in code S or almost nobody knows of you.
If we got to see these "not top 8 code S but still talented enough to (almost) win IPL" Koreans on a more regular basis, they might not be so faceless. It might be more interesting watching them win tournaments.
Of course, I watch BW where it's just Koreans, and I'd still watch SC2 if it was just Koreans -- there's a lot of people who won't, and finding better foreigners is important as well. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing less faceless Koreans and more people I recognize.
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I for one stopped watching after Stephano got knocked out even though I'm not a fan of his, partly due to it getting late but mostly due to the reasons you stated on OP.
While I'd love to say that I just want to see the best players play it's not quite true anymore, rather would see popular Koreans vs top foreigners fighting on even ground, or with a slight underdog setting for the foreigners.
I don't think the gap between Koreans and foreigners has gotten any worse at least, thats a positive. It may seem like that with Koreans invading foreign tournaments in numbers now unlike when Select was the only "Korean" in foreign tournaments but skill levels seem roughly the same between Korea and world to me as earlier SC2 days.
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The term "faceless Koreans" really does a good job of explaining the situation. As someone who doesn't follow the GSL (because it's on at 4 in the flippin' morning here!) I can relate to this a bit. There have been a few MLGs now where there's one or two really high level players that I've never heard of before, who then go on to demolish several top foriegners. It's a bit odd, but it's hard to be excited when you have no idea whose playing.
So why is the foreign community putting up such a poor fight against Koreans at the moment? My theory is this: in the beginning of SC2’s lifespan a number of progamers established a well defined identity – moreso outside of Korea than in. Now as the game evolved many of the first generation Koreans couldn’t keep up with the ever increasing level of play, and we had a second generation of players come through (no thanks to the poor format of early GSLs). The Korean scene continues to weed out weak players through the new and brutal Code S format; this keeps the best at the top regardless of their fanbase.
I agree, but I think other factors are at play here as well. I think one of the things that plays in here is the carry-over from BW, not just in terms of skill but in terms of funding and structure as well. Even though Boxer isn't as skilled as he once was, I've got to imagine having someone like him on Slayers, imparting his experience and knowlege, has got to make some difference. There's also the fact that just about every Korean team has a team house with coaching, service, and management staff; a luxury many foriegn teams simply aren't afforded. If you take a look at the support the gamers in the Star Tail house have, that's got to make a difference in their performance, at least a small one.
On April 21 2012 05:33 Chef wrote:
I've always felt the problem with SC2 (outside of the game itself) is that there are simply too many progamers and tournaments. People were really hard on KeSPA when they wanted to stop the shottily produced GOMTV league, but I always felt there was a certain logic to keeping a limit on the number of games a player had to practice for and the number of leagues a fan had to watch. Things do become more difficult to watch when there is no sense of "these are the elite few privileged to play the in the highest league there is." Even when the tournament has a lot of money or a lot of viewers, it means nothing if there is no proof that they are the best of the best of the best. You could always say 'amateurs are nothing compared to those in the OSL' 'B-teamers are nothing compared to those in Proleague' knowing that they could not win more than 1 game out of 10 vs the true elite. But when you saturate yourself with tournaments where the low level players vastly outnumber the truly skilled, of course you are more likely to see boring players reach the finals. It's not a matter of them really earning their victory, it's a matter of sheer probability. Even if you only lose 1 in ten times to those players, if you play ten of them you're not getting to the finals. Even if you only win one of ten games vs a good player, if there are ten others like you, one of you is gonna get thru.
No hand outs is great, fine, you'll ensure your league has more legitimacy that way. Hand picking players who have proven themselves and pitting them against each other... That's when you start to see the game mature.
I disagree. I think MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, and to a lesser extent NASL have really distinguished themselves as the top foriegn tournaments. Yes there are other big tournaments like the EG Master's cup and ESL, but I think anyone would have a hard time making the argument that they are on the same level in terms of production and quality.
I think Plexa hit it on the head when he brought up Scarlett. We really need more people asking how a complete unknown, who never played RTS games seriously before SC2, could come in and demolish someone like Demuslim. I think we've all known for a while that some of the "top" players are overrated, but obviously we've really chosen as a community to ignore the severity of the issue.
The real question is, what do you do about it? If you're MLG, do you really want to risk losing viewers by running a tournament structure that excludes the "popular" players? It's a dicy issue.
On April 21 2012 05:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 04:01 LunaSea wrote:
Ouaou, such a hate bandwagon against IPL !
Hot news guys : Team Liquid bought by MLG !
(I can't figure another reason than this ...)
I'm sure that the OP is the kind of guys that "plays as the marine" like Sundance or loves the "ZvG" matchup.
I didn't play Brood War nor followed any eSports before Starcraft 2 but I would prefer to have a small but dedicated community than a 100 million casuals that care more about nationality than skill level. When you can't figure out a better explanation than a conspiracy theory, you oughtn't post.
You've clearly been replaced by some type of robot that spews TL-propoganda. Probably some version of the software they use to run Torte de Lini.
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Hong Kong9145 Posts
Have to agree with your position that most people just weren't invested in the final match of IPL 4.
It really felt like people ran for the turnstiles at the conclusion of the final match. The trophy ceremony felt exceedingly shorter and more hurried than any that I've had the pleasure of being able to photograph. It felt like the only people left in that huge hallway cheering and celebrating were the staff of the event, the teams of the players involved, and the media documenting the occasion. Even the finals ceremony for NASL Season 2 felt more exciting, because even though there wasn't that many people in the crowd to begin with, the people who were there stayed for the entire ceremony.
GSTL Finals the previous day was incredibly hype, though. Perhaps the excitement of that night made the next day feel more muted in comparison.
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Soooooooo...when is TSL4?
Pretty good analysis, and I agree with most of your main point. From my own experience, I have to say that personalities and favorites are huuuuuge deals when it comes to a casual fan. Even when SC2 came out and I started following it hardcore, I was still kept following the BW scene casually just because I had a connection with Khan, Stork, and Jangbi, and wanted to keep up with them and how they were doing. Even now, I almost solely watch BW games and tournaments with KHAN in them, and there's still enough games going around to keep me loving and following BW as a whole. I love watching good BW games, but as much as I do, with SC2, Netflix, and a hundred other things for me to do, it often takes that personal connection to get met to actually watch.
So basically, my experience with BW matches up pretty well with what you've said. SC2 has a lot of really popular foreigners who don't necessarily do that well in tournaments with Koreans, and I agree that that's somewhat of a problem. I'm not really sure that just having more open competitions is the way to go--it's certainly part of it, but I feel like more fun invite tournaments with fan favorites could help as well. We'll see.
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I feel like this blog sums up what is causing a lot of the problems with the "foreign" scene ( I hate that term btw, sure it made sense from a Korean perspective in BW but the primary market for SC2 is not in Korea, lets just stick to nationalities or East vs West). Yes, good SC2 games are great to watch and all but when it gets down to it, people watch sports of every type ( US football, football, hockey, baseball, basketball, w/e) because they associate with a certain team. I truly doubt you can find anyone who watches professional sports who doesn't have a favorite team and their viewership is influenced by how that team performs. In pro SC2, especially in individual tournaments, the "faceless koreans" are not easy to root for. Yes there will always be the few impassioned fans who know about them and root for them, but it will never captivate a larger audience without the appeal of a known product, which in the case of the west, the main market for SC2, is a "foreigner".
Edit: This really deserves to be spotlighted, it sums up some really good thoughts on the SC2 scene as a whole
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I completely agree with this blog. Players like Maru, Curious, Ace, Squirtle, Hack etc. all have a chance to win foreigner tournaments but I have no idea who they are and wouldn't give a shit if they won an MLG or a Dreamhack. People keep saying that they just want to see the highest level of play in SC2 but I have no interest in watching 2 faceless koreans battle it out in a final even if their level of play is higher. I'd rather watch a final of 2 closely matched foreigners who I can relate to even if they aren't on the same level as koreans.
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I always hit quote instead of edit -_-
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I really like this post and I agree with a lot of what you've written about here. I guess for me, the main issue is how far do we want SC2 to go as an Esport? How sustainable can this game actually be in the long run?
I would love to see Starcraft 2 becoming an Esport like baseball / hockey / football / basketball is to regular sports.
However, I'm not sure if computer games have the ability to support such long-term traditional (E)sports. It seems like most computers games will create (E)sports that are similar to Slamball, Rollerderby or Whipeout.
It's not that those sports aren't legit - they totally have their entertainment value and even sporting value as well. But they just sort of pop up, and people watch em and get into them for awhile, then they disappear. Even if they are still around - somewhere on the tv or IRL... they still seem to disappear to the general public.
I remember playing SC and War3 and really enjoying the ladder. However, it seemed like those games weren't really being played by a ton of people competitively. Everyone I knew was playing Halo or Dota (on war3) and even now those games are over the hill.
I personally think that computer games will come and go quickly from decade to decade. Sure, they will be marketed and used as a tool to make money. But i wouldn't be surprised if SC2 wasn't even featured in MLG in a few years... There is going to be other BETTER games that will come out and replace it. People will get jazzed for a few years then forget about it...
To me, the foreign or Korean argument falls to the way side that SC2 can not support any kind of "casual" fan what so ever...
I know my ideas here are quite pessimistic. Don't get me wrong, I love this game and I hope that it thrives as an Esport... but I guess we'll just have to wait and see and try are hardest to support it along the way.
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I disagree. I think MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, and to a lesser extent NASL have really distinguished themselves as the top foriegn tournaments. Yes there are other big tournaments like the EG Master's cup and ESL, but I think anyone would have a hard time making the argument that they are on the same level in terms of production and quality.
You've missed the point completely. Even if it's just MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, NASL, and however many Codes of GSL there are, you pretty much have to make a career out of being a viewer to follow it all and thinned out the best players across too many tournaments.
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As someone who keeps up with SC2 quite a bit I consider myself very knowledgeable of the SC2 scene. That being said it still pains me to watch Koreans dominate tournaments. I share your sentiments in that I really don't know that much about them other than their play styles and such. Whereas players like IdrA, Naniwa, Ret are all very familiar to me. I watch their streams and have kept up with them and they have a personality I can relate to behind their username.
I don't feel this sentiment towards all Koreans though - players like MC, DRG, MKP are all friendly faces whom I can relate some sort of human characteristics and interactions with. It just makes the tournament much more fun when I can root for personalities rather than races - which is what I so often find myself doing when I watch a tournament with a majority of Koreans.
I am eagerly awaiting Koreans to start making names for themselves in foreigner-land like MKP, MC, and DRG have done. I would enjoy watching tournaments so much more and wouldn't consider them as "Oh man, I see some players I like, some I don't, and then the players that will dominate whom I don't know much about."
As an ending token I'd like to add that this is all just my opinion and that you may consider other Koreans more 'famous' than those that I listed or consider the players that I listed not very popular at all - it's just my idols so don't be offended if I didn't list yours.
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On April 21 2012 05:33 Chef wrote:
I've always felt the problem with SC2 (outside of the game itself) is that there are simply too many progamers and tournaments. People were really hard on KeSPA when they wanted to stop the shottily produced GOMTV league, but I always felt there was a certain logic to keeping a limit on the number of games a player had to practice for and the number of leagues a fan had to watch. Things do become more difficult to watch when there is no sense of "these are the elite few privileged to play the in the highest league there is." Even when the tournament has a lot of money or a lot of viewers, it means nothing if there is no proof that they are the best of the best of the best. You could always say 'amateurs are nothing compared to those in the OSL' 'B-teamers are nothing compared to those in Proleague' knowing that they could not win more than 1 game out of 10 vs the true elite. But when you saturate yourself with tournaments where the low level players vastly outnumber the truly skilled, of course you are more likely to see boring players reach the finals. It's not a matter of them really earning their victory, it's a matter of sheer probability. Even if you only lose 1 in ten times to those players, if you play ten of them you're not getting to the finals. Even if you only win one of ten games vs a good player, if there are ten others like you, one of you is gonna get thru.
No hand outs is great, fine, you'll ensure your league has more legitimacy that way. Hand picking players who have proven themselves and pitting them against each other... That's when you start to see the game mature.
I disagree. One thing I loved about the old GOMTV league is the sheer number of players. Where else could you market players like DarkElf, Memory or Lomo as stars? So when the real elite showed up and stomped these players you KNEW they were the shit. "OMG he 3-0'd Memory he must be really good."
The problem is that those Koreans (for one reason or another) don't have a public image. It's unlucky that we have so many Koreans but I think part of the problem lies in the format. There's simply no time to build up these players in a single weekend, to get to know them a little better. You need a wide base and skill based open competition. But you need to give enough time between the moment an unknown fights through the open bracket and when he fights for the crown.
Maybe there are ways to make the non-Korean scene more competitive. But any successful strategy has to include ways to make _any_ strong player marketable. Even if he happens to be a faceless Korean.
edit: I guess, I should add, I don't think the real problem is that terrible players are reaching the finals because there's so many of them. The problem is good or great, but relatively unknown players going far.
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EPT
