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Seviro, while I like your analysis on a first glance, I would like to note that you start your case with some heavy WIFOM.
We have no idea what the motives of the mafia are for killing sbrubbles. We can only speculate. And if we speculate wrong, we might start hunting and lynching people for the wrong reasons, we will get WIFOM, it will create more uncertainty than facts. The only ones profiting from it will be the mafia.
There is no benefit in guessing what the mafia is up to. Also, it does not matter. Whatever the mafia wanted to achieve, we just need to make sure that we can lynch them, then we win.
However, I think your case is not only base on WIFOM, so I will go through it later when I have more time.
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The following three people have not yet posted anything since the night post (roughly 30 hours ago)
- InfernOokami7
- cosine
- koritora
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Already dead? lol
GG guys, see you all next time!
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On March 14 2012 14:13 Seviro wrote:GG sbrubbles, be sure that we'll avenge your death. At first I was like why kill him, he was not really active, did not really help the town the first day and I didn't see him being a threat for anyone. Now after looking at his filter, his death give me some pointers. First, only 2 post of him contain some sort of analysis/suspicion. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
On March 12 2012 23:29 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. You didn't accuse him? Short of actually voting for the fellow, threatening to vote for someone is as accusatory as it gets: + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 01:57 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:51 Seviro wrote:On March 11 2012 20:18 Nova_Terra wrote:
Please explain yourself. I dont like cosines play so far, his only post comes after someone accusing him of lurking. not only does he not bring anything new to the table, he confuses us and discredits others post (tofus) and calls it stupid.
Here I don't see how he is different than you about posting just after being accusiing of lurking since your first post was just after FirmTOfu called the current people in the game that hadn't post at this time On March 11 2012 17:36 Nova_Terra wrote:Hey, Sorry, I was asleep for the last 8 hours and just woke up  I agree with always pushing a lynch as long as there is aome evidence that shows that the person is likely to be scum. for instance lurkers, bad defenders, etc. i also agree with a no lynch as long as there is overwhelming evidence that shows lynch candidates as being townies. But I guess you're right since he didn't post at all since then, where you have. I just think that FOSing someone this early in the game (8 hour ago was early I mean) after only a single post is a bit suspicious but I do agree that he is not clear of suspicion with his one post, not worth a FOS yet though Yeah, it was a funny coincedence that he posted that right before i woke up. i also pointed out the post before how the suspicion should also be on me. The thing is though, his post was extremely messed up and seemed very scummy. i definitely think it is worth an FOS seeing as nothing else was happening and i want him to clarify it up. its not like i voted for him yet or anything. On March 12 2012 01:59 Nova_Terra wrote:
EBWOP: and if cosine doesnt post and we dont get any other leads i feel that he would be a good lynch candidate.
Also, why so angry? Why do you insist (once again) on explaining the motives for your change of atitude? I pointed out that you were quick to turn defensive (or frustrated, as you say) when you were called out on it and it is my opinion that this is suspicious behavior, but that this doesn't matter for now because it is not worth it to push on a talkative (potential) mafia because there will be plenty of time for you to slip up later on if you really are scum. Now your answer is to threaten me, calling me suspicious? Anyway, question here: if the we agree to lynch a lurker, how are we gonna go about it? Bandwagon on the first non-replied accusation? At this point, besides Elean, we can consider a Inferno as a lurker. His post may not be contradictory like Elean (as in, he doesn't call himself worthless and suggests himself to be lynched), but he also hasn't contributed to the thread. Firmtofu looked like he was gonna participate but also hasn't said anything. In both of them, he state his suspicion on the early behaviour of Nova_Terra, maybe he was on something here. So I looked up Nova_Terra's filter and noticed so good thing. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. In this one, he confront Scrubbles after he called him out on his early agressiveness, saying that it was to have some sort of conversatioin going out but also adding that he was frustrated by the town for not agreeing with him. Then he add to not "discredit his post by calling it inexperience/carelessness" where in fact Scrubbles was in fact only giving him some sort of excuse for what he posted earlier. As Scrubbles said, being defensive over such a small thing is suspicious to me. He then end his post on a semi-random call on eleanthas by saying that he is "thinking him". This way of wording it is like he want us to start pressuring eleanthas ourselves without stating it. That one-line call bugs me out a lot. He then tell why he thinks Scrubbles post was suspicous. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 17:09 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
I just want to point out like posts like this are scummy. Not making any “accusations” or anything. 1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. 2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion 3. Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness 4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. Show nested quote +1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. Why would Scrubbles throw the blame on him when he was not even targetted at all. I mean it's not like Scrubbles was our main target and he wanted to put the spot on another one whereas it is exactly waht Nova_Terra is doing by turning his post against him. Show nested quote +2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion. He is dodging the fact that Scrubbles want more explanation about his early FOS by implying that there is nothing more to add and that Scrubbles is just wanting to bring up old discussion whereas it was legitimate of him to want some more since he was not convince of his innocence yet. See point 2, that is exactly what Nova do. Show nested quote +4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. What he did before on Eleanthas. Also, that was not what Scrubbles was doing he just happen to have come online after the veil of suspicion was lifted on Nova and he just wanted some clarification. Show nested quote +As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. So well at this point pretty self-explanatory. Finally I will quote myself. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 08:36 Seviro wrote:Oh god i'm late to the party today, Real life can be a whore Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:34 Nova_Terra wrote:
Okay, gossemerr, read the post above. I dont feel that a lynch on firmtofu will have any non-town results.
This is not trying to lynch you. I apologise for being so wishy washy and understand why people may not like this decision.
Unvote: FirmTofu
Vote: Gossemerr
I think you would be better voting for a no lynch because voting randomly for someone like this seems a bit scummy in my opinion but i guess you just didn't notice that you could just vote no lynch I think by voting on someone else since Tofu was most likely dead anyways, he wanted to not be associated with his death since he knew he was a townie (if he is a scum of course) and that kind of worked. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 22:48 phagga wrote:So, the bandwagon on FirmTofu was rolling to easy. There was no opposition. As scum profits from mislynches, I am sure we will find at least 1 if not 2 scum on the voters of FirmTofu. Here's the final voting stand on FirmTofu again: FirmTofu (7): phagga, Eleanthas, Janaan, Gossemerr, Mementoss, Seviro, cosine, Janaan: He agrees on FirmTofu, and brings up Koritora as new suspect after the lynch with good reason. Does not look suspicious. Gossemerr: Trying to be active and helpful, lacking some content. Went a bit overboard with the "specific scenario" argument vs Nova_Tera IMO, but I think that's not an issue. Also brought up that noone is defending FirmTofu, although he again was not the first one to do so. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. Mementoss: Very active, posting analysis. Brought up Eleanthas, stated his position on several players. Does not look suspicious. Seviro: another rather active player, although content may be debatable. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. cosine: He speaks out several times vs a lurker lynch on Day1, but then jumps easily on the FirmTofu bandwagon to lynch a lurker. Besides defending himself, he did not add anything substantial. I don't like that. Eleanthas: His posting is still lacking, he actually only reiterated the wordings of others. His only longer post is this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:57 Eleanthas wrote:Ok. Sorry for not responding. Saw discussion towards me at school with my phone, but really hard to write anything with it so decided to wait untill I come home. Anyway have been busy atm. Will change now. 1So what Can i say about first post. It was really just a post to tell people I'm alive. In some forums, you get replaced if you don't speak on first half of day, so I guess I followed that rule there. Had really nothing to say. Just plain stupid first post from me. 2About Nova_Terra: He seems eager to accuse anybody scum if given even a small chance. I guess he is trying to presure players to talk to get discussion going on. Doesn't seem too scummy for me, but have to keep eye on him. 3So what I think about InfernOokami7: On March 12 2012 08:40 InfernOokami7 wrote:
I'm not 100% in favor of a no lynch on day 1 as long as there is a reasonable amount of suspicion for someone. I just didn't see the point in voting to lynch someone if the reason wasn't there because instead of just giving the mafia a free pass for the night, you're giving them a 2 for 1 deal instead. beside that post he has 4 post saying pretty much same. I guess he is trying to lurk by stating same thing in many posts. Would like to hear about him. 4And lastly about FirmTofu: Like many others pointed out FirmTofu posted 2 fast posts. Seems kinda suspicous to me. Telling to pick one of the lurkers and listing them and then vanishing. If we don't hear about him, my vote is gonna go for him. 5
##Vote FirmTofu 1 + 2 Apologizes for not posting earlier, then calls his own first post stupid, although the post itself was not that bad. The fact that he did not post more after this short oneliner was bad. 3 Seviro, Mementoss and Sbrubbles already pointed out the exact same thing. Actually, just take a look at Mementoss phrase: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:33 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with this post, it seems NovaTerra is eager to FoS despite how early in the game it was, which seems a little suspicious. But, it is most likely just a pressure play, to get the discussion rolling, and people talking. Eleanthas post is the same content with different wording. 4 Was brought up in a similar form by Mementoss. 5 Was brought up by pretty much everyone active in the thread at that time. So, he actually said nothing. The comments on each of his 3 "suspects" are really short and only repeat thoughts brought up by others. For me, he is one of the more suspect persons in the game. ##FoS: Eleanthas in his post Phagga write a global analysis of everyone that vote for the lynch without touching to those who didn't. If I'm correct, that was quite a nice play from Nova. So Nova_Terra I can't wait for your answers. That said, I'm going to bed ##Big FOS:Nova_Terra
I think you have been misunderstanding many of the points I’ve been making.
In this one, he confront Scrubbles after he called him out on his early agressiveness, saying that it was to have some sort of conversatioin going out but also adding that he was frustrated by the town for not agreeing with him.
Yes, that is accurate except for the part about the town being frustrated by the town not agreeing with me. I was frustrated that people found me suspicious for the ways that I found Cosine suspicions, but then immediately used my same logic to find him suspicious. I found it hypocritical. It is true that I was mad that the town didn’t think like me, yes.
He then end his post on a semi-random call on eleanthas by saying that he is "thinking him". This way of wording it is like he want us to start pressuring eleanthas ourselves without stating it. That one-line call bugs me out a lot.
Meh, I didn’t consider it semi random as he made a suspicious first post as well and appeared to be lurking. See last post on the “thinking him” thing, I think you just interpreted “thinking him” wrong as I should have clarified it more.
Why would Scrubbles throw the blame on him when he was not even targetted at all. I mean it's not like Scrubbles was our main target and he wanted to put the spot on another one whereas it is exactly waht Nova_Terra is doing by turning his post against him.
Sorry, maybe shouldn’t have used the word ‘The’ in ‘The Blame’. He was putting blame on me, not tossing it from him to me.
He is dodging the fact that Scrubbles want more explanation about his early FOS by implying that there is nothing more to add and that Scrubbles is just wanting to bring up old discussion whereas it was legitimate of him to want some more since he was not convince of his innocence yet.
Uhhh, sorry? He wanted MORE explanation about my early FOS? I thought he was accusing me for repeatedly defending myself for it. I think that I explained my early FOS well enough.
See point 2, that is exactly what Nova do.
Please clarify. I do not understand what you mean.
What he did before on Eleanthas. Also, that was not what Scrubbles was doing he just happen to have come online after the veil of suspicion was lifted on Nova and he just wanted some clarification.
I still maintain that the thing with Eleanthas as a misunderstanding where you considered my ‘Im thinking’ to not being to point a finger, Whereas I meant that that would probably be my vote if nothing happened to clarify. I was not asking for anyone else to point a finger at him, etc.
I find that my clarification of my FOS from beforehand was enough, and therefore I feel that he had an obligation to read the thread through fully, especially if he had just arrived. And he did ignore a few of my posts, as I directly talked to him and he didn’t respond.
I think by voting on someone else since Tofu was most likely dead anyways, he wanted to not be associated with his death since he knew he was a townie (if he is a scum of course)
and that kind of worked.
Well I think/thought that my logic on FirmTofu was accurate, and therefore didn’t want to vote for someone that I was relatively sure was town, especially with the lynch going so easily. I was hoping that enough people would agree with my logic that they would stop their votes, but it was too close to the lynch deadline.
in his post Phagga write a global analysis of everyone that vote for the lynch without touching to those who didn't. If I'm correct, that was quite a nice play from Nova.
You mean my “play” of not voting for the townie, correct?
If so, I agree that that was a nice play, as the town’s general goal is to not lynch townies. Of course, Phagga only said that he was sure we could find 1-2 scum in that list, therefore leaving 1-2 out as well, so I consider that as touching on us as well.
I find it sad that tofu died, I really thought that my reasoning was enough for people to cancel votes, but it was probably a bit WIFOMy.
Anything else?
Many of the points you made are based on WIFOM, and therefore I apologize if I was not able to respond to those in a way that cleared it up, as I have trouble defending against WIFOM cases.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 14:13 Seviro wrote:GG sbrubbles, be sure that we'll avenge your death. At first I was like why kill him, he was not really active, did not really help the town the first day and I didn't see him being a threat for anyone. Now after looking at his filter, his death give me some pointers. First, only 2 post of him contain some sort of analysis/suspicion. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
On March 12 2012 23:29 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. You didn't accuse him? Short of actually voting for the fellow, threatening to vote for someone is as accusatory as it gets: + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 01:57 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:51 Seviro wrote:On March 11 2012 20:18 Nova_Terra wrote:
Please explain yourself. I dont like cosines play so far, his only post comes after someone accusing him of lurking. not only does he not bring anything new to the table, he confuses us and discredits others post (tofus) and calls it stupid.
Here I don't see how he is different than you about posting just after being accusiing of lurking since your first post was just after FirmTOfu called the current people in the game that hadn't post at this time On March 11 2012 17:36 Nova_Terra wrote:Hey, Sorry, I was asleep for the last 8 hours and just woke up I agree with always pushing a lynch as long as there is aome evidence that shows that the person is likely to be scum. for instance lurkers, bad defenders, etc. i also agree with a no lynch as long as there is overwhelming evidence that shows lynch candidates as being townies. But I guess you're right since he didn't post at all since then, where you have. I just think that FOSing someone this early in the game (8 hour ago was early I mean) after only a single post is a bit suspicious but I do agree that he is not clear of suspicion with his one post, not worth a FOS yet though Yeah, it was a funny coincedence that he posted that right before i woke up. i also pointed out the post before how the suspicion should also be on me. The thing is though, his post was extremely messed up and seemed very scummy. i definitely think it is worth an FOS seeing as nothing else was happening and i want him to clarify it up. its not like i voted for him yet or anything. On March 12 2012 01:59 Nova_Terra wrote:
EBWOP: and if cosine doesnt post and we dont get any other leads i feel that he would be a good lynch candidate.
Also, why so angry? Why do you insist (once again) on explaining the motives for your change of atitude? I pointed out that you were quick to turn defensive (or frustrated, as you say) when you were called out on it and it is my opinion that this is suspicious behavior, but that this doesn't matter for now because it is not worth it to push on a talkative (potential) mafia because there will be plenty of time for you to slip up later on if you really are scum. Now your answer is to threaten me, calling me suspicious? Anyway, question here: if the we agree to lynch a lurker, how are we gonna go about it? Bandwagon on the first non-replied accusation? At this point, besides Elean, we can consider a Inferno as a lurker. His post may not be contradictory like Elean (as in, he doesn't call himself worthless and suggests himself to be lynched), but he also hasn't contributed to the thread. Firmtofu looked like he was gonna participate but also hasn't said anything. In both of them, he state his suspicion on the early behaviour of Nova_Terra, maybe he was on something here. So I looked up Nova_Terra's filter and noticed so good thing. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. In this one, he confront Scrubbles after he called him out on his early agressiveness, saying that it was to have some sort of conversatioin going out but also adding that he was frustrated by the town for not agreeing with him. Then he add to not "discredit his post by calling it inexperience/carelessness" where in fact Scrubbles was in fact only giving him some sort of excuse for what he posted earlier. As Scrubbles said, being defensive over such a small thing is suspicious to me. He then end his post on a semi-random call on eleanthas by saying that he is "thinking him". This way of wording it is like he want us to start pressuring eleanthas ourselves without stating it. That one-line call bugs me out a lot. He then tell why he thinks Scrubbles post was suspicous. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 17:09 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
I just want to point out like posts like this are scummy. Not making any “accusations” or anything. 1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. 2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion 3. Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness 4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. Show nested quote +1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. Why would Scrubbles throw the blame on him when he was not even targetted at all. I mean it's not like Scrubbles was our main target and he wanted to put the spot on another one whereas it is exactly waht Nova_Terra is doing by turning his post against him. Show nested quote +2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion. He is dodging the fact that Scrubbles want more explanation about his early FOS by implying that there is nothing more to add and that Scrubbles is just wanting to bring up old discussion whereas it was legitimate of him to want some more since he was not convince of his innocence yet. See point 2, that is exactly what Nova do. Show nested quote +4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. What he did before on Eleanthas. Also, that was not what Scrubbles was doing he just happen to have come online after the veil of suspicion was lifted on Nova and he just wanted some clarification. Show nested quote +As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. So well at this point pretty self-explanatory. Finally I will quote myself. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 08:36 Seviro wrote:Oh god i'm late to the party today, Real life can be a whore Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:34 Nova_Terra wrote:
Okay, gossemerr, read the post above. I dont feel that a lynch on firmtofu will have any non-town results.
This is not trying to lynch you. I apologise for being so wishy washy and understand why people may not like this decision.
Unvote: FirmTofu
Vote: Gossemerr
I think you would be better voting for a no lynch because voting randomly for someone like this seems a bit scummy in my opinion but i guess you just didn't notice that you could just vote no lynch I think by voting on someone else since Tofu was most likely dead anyways, he wanted to not be associated with his death since he knew he was a townie (if he is a scum of course) and that kind of worked. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 22:48 phagga wrote:So, the bandwagon on FirmTofu was rolling to easy. There was no opposition. As scum profits from mislynches, I am sure we will find at least 1 if not 2 scum on the voters of FirmTofu. Here's the final voting stand on FirmTofu again: FirmTofu (7): phagga, Eleanthas, Janaan, Gossemerr, Mementoss, Seviro, cosine, Janaan: He agrees on FirmTofu, and brings up Koritora as new suspect after the lynch with good reason. Does not look suspicious. Gossemerr: Trying to be active and helpful, lacking some content. Went a bit overboard with the "specific scenario" argument vs Nova_Tera IMO, but I think that's not an issue. Also brought up that noone is defending FirmTofu, although he again was not the first one to do so. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. Mementoss: Very active, posting analysis. Brought up Eleanthas, stated his position on several players. Does not look suspicious. Seviro: another rather active player, although content may be debatable. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. cosine: He speaks out several times vs a lurker lynch on Day1, but then jumps easily on the FirmTofu bandwagon to lynch a lurker. Besides defending himself, he did not add anything substantial. I don't like that. Eleanthas: His posting is still lacking, he actually only reiterated the wordings of others. His only longer post is this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:57 Eleanthas wrote:Ok. Sorry for not responding. Saw discussion towards me at school with my phone, but really hard to write anything with it so decided to wait untill I come home. Anyway have been busy atm. Will change now. 1So what Can i say about first post. It was really just a post to tell people I'm alive. In some forums, you get replaced if you don't speak on first half of day, so I guess I followed that rule there. Had really nothing to say. Just plain stupid first post from me. 2About Nova_Terra: He seems eager to accuse anybody scum if given even a small chance. I guess he is trying to presure players to talk to get discussion going on. Doesn't seem too scummy for me, but have to keep eye on him. 3So what I think about InfernOokami7: On March 12 2012 08:40 InfernOokami7 wrote:
I'm not 100% in favor of a no lynch on day 1 as long as there is a reasonable amount of suspicion for someone. I just didn't see the point in voting to lynch someone if the reason wasn't there because instead of just giving the mafia a free pass for the night, you're giving them a 2 for 1 deal instead. beside that post he has 4 post saying pretty much same. I guess he is trying to lurk by stating same thing in many posts. Would like to hear about him. 4And lastly about FirmTofu: Like many others pointed out FirmTofu posted 2 fast posts. Seems kinda suspicous to me. Telling to pick one of the lurkers and listing them and then vanishing. If we don't hear about him, my vote is gonna go for him. 5
##Vote FirmTofu 1 + 2 Apologizes for not posting earlier, then calls his own first post stupid, although the post itself was not that bad. The fact that he did not post more after this short oneliner was bad. 3 Seviro, Mementoss and Sbrubbles already pointed out the exact same thing. Actually, just take a look at Mementoss phrase: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:33 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with this post, it seems NovaTerra is eager to FoS despite how early in the game it was, which seems a little suspicious. But, it is most likely just a pressure play, to get the discussion rolling, and people talking. Eleanthas post is the same content with different wording. 4 Was brought up in a similar form by Mementoss. 5 Was brought up by pretty much everyone active in the thread at that time. So, he actually said nothing. The comments on each of his 3 "suspects" are really short and only repeat thoughts brought up by others. For me, he is one of the more suspect persons in the game. ##FoS: Eleanthas in his post Phagga write a global analysis of everyone that vote for the lynch without touching to those who didn't. If I'm correct, that was quite a nice play from Nova. So Nova_Terra I can't wait for your answers. That said, I'm going to bed ##Big FOS:Nova_Terra
Wow, long post. I also was surprised when I seen this mafia kill. I immediately thought the same thing that mafia kills are usually motivated by people who on the right track for hunting scum. The only person to put relatively any pressure on NovaTerra was Sbrubbles. Of course this is just WIFOM situation, as the mafia could just be trying to mess with the town there is no way of knowing. But I do find it interesting the way NovaTerra replied.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas.
This reply is very defensive. He FoS'd him, but in an aggressive manner to get the whole town on board early, at least for a thought. By being aggressive and FoS an early proof of innocence, doing what is good for the town.Also by the same most people would be thinking that no mafia would be that aggressive early game. Is that what he wants us to think? Then he goes on to state Eleanthas is his most suspicious at the moment.
Then bam, change of though Sbrubbles is his suspicious now. OMGUS sorta attitude. You think i'm suspicious well that makes you suspicious kind of defensive manuever.
On March 12 2012 17:09 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
I just want to point out like posts like this are scummy. Not making any “accusations” or anything. 1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. 2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion 3. Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness 4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:46 Sbrubbles wrote:We have Koritora, Phagga, Elean and Inferno lurking as of this moment. On March 12 2012 10:22 koritora wrote:
However, to lynch a lurker is not a bad thing. It's not helping anyone in the town. As for people against lynching on the Day 1, that's where my suspicion lies. Sure, Koritora, we could single out Inferno (or whoever you're actually referring to) for not being dead set on lynching without cause, but I don't think this is scum behavior per se. The fact that he actually has an opinion and wrote a bit on it, though, is good for singling him out if he does have a scummy attitude later on. Your post, on the other hand, doesn't add anything to the discussion and doesn't even have enough content so that we can use it to analyse you later on. So, how about putting a little more effort? Arguably, you are contributing on close to the same level as Koritora. The main thing is that you don’t really add anything except with disagreeing with other people. To you as well, what are your thoughts on cosine and Eleanthas in particular? It seems that you ignored most of the discussion relating to this.
I have the same thoughts on this as Seviro, basically, but i'll quickly go through it.
1. "Throws blame on others." Why would he do this? No one suspected Sbrubbles.
2."Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion" - At that point discussion was discussion, and overall your argument wasn't exactly strong, so it was more like disagreeing not , not understanding.
3. "Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness" - Trying to give a reason for your defensiveness if you were town
4. "Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious." - I think he was just against early FoS because he wasn't confident in his read on you without more posts. Not because he didn't want to bring further attention to himself.
Also as stated before, the vote change by Nova_Terra was weird. He didn't push the town to get off of Tofu's case until it was too late to lose majority. Does this make him innocent, just because he didn't have a final vote for a townie. Well it looks like that is the way he was trying to make it look.
Also I noticed something else that was a bit weird. Maybe just a coincidence. The connection between Phagga and Nova_Terra
1. Only 2 people to have suspicion on Sbrubbles. Phagga and Nova_Terra. I've already shown Nova's so here is Phaggas post.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 18:33 phagga wrote:Where is FirmTofu? He posted a lurker list 5 hours into the game (which is VERY early for a lurkerlist) and has not posted since then. If we would hold him up to his own standard, he is lurking very hard. You can see his filter hereI read through all the filters, and besides FirmTofu the following people are rather suspicious to me: - Eleanthas (Only posted a one liner) - koritora (not posting anything of value) - sbrubbles (only two posts in rapid succession where he basically calls out lurkers and fluff, only to disappear again). IMO, if there is a DT out there, these four would be possible check targets. What do you guys think about it? Also, if none of them adds anyhting significant in the next 6 hours, my vote will go to one of these four. Soft deadline 8 hours before is ok with me. Also, as a heads up, I generally won't be around on deadline, as it is at 3 am in my timezone. By final vote will normally be casted around 5 to 3 hours before deadline.
--> Also maybe trying to push a waste of DT check onto Sbrubbles?
2. Another agreeance on the DT check, again maybe trying to lure out a Blue or waste a check?
+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 02:30 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 01:21 phagga wrote:
So, if there is a DT in this game, and he does not know who he should check, I would propose that he chose someone from this list:
- Eleanthas
- koritora
- cosine
What does everyone else think? I am in agreement with those three being good suspects for a dt to check. I want them (as well as everyone else) to come and post more. The trend seems to be posting some excuse for not posting and then not posting again. I have a couple other minor suspicions right now, but nothing worth noting, until i have a bit more to work with.
3. First to defend Nova_Terra
+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 18:47 phagga wrote:
Seviro, while I like your analysis on a first glance, I would like to note that you start your case with some heavy WIFOM.
We have no idea what the motives of the mafia are for killing sbrubbles. We can only speculate. And if we speculate wrong, we might start hunting and lynching people for the wrong reasons, we will get WIFOM, it will create more uncertainty than facts. The only ones profiting from it will be the mafia.
There is no benefit in guessing what the mafia is up to. Also, it does not matter. Whatever the mafia wanted to achieve, we just need to make sure that we can lynch them, then we win.
However, I think your case is not only base on WIFOM, so I will go through it later when I have more time.
--> Doesn't really go into the case, just dis regards it because it has some WIFOM. When really, there was a lot of WIFOM but there were some other good points too, that he didn't post his opinion on. Adds some fluff about trying to guess what the mafia is up to is useless. Well usually finding what the mafia are up to leads to them, and it all starts making sense. Or you find a mafia, then you find what they were up to and make a connection that way. So yes eventually mafia motives are relevant.
4. Leaves Nova_terra out of his analysis because of the vote switch.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 22:48 phagga wrote:So, the bandwagon on FirmTofu was rolling to easy. There was no opposition. As scum profits from mislynches, I am sure we will find at least 1 if not 2 scum on the voters of FirmTofu. Here's the final voting stand on FirmTofu again: FirmTofu (7): phagga, Eleanthas, Janaan, Gossemerr, Mementoss, Seviro, cosine, Janaan: He agrees on FirmTofu, and brings up Koritora as new suspect after the lynch with good reason. Does not look suspicious. Gossemerr: Trying to be active and helpful, lacking some content. Went a bit overboard with the "specific scenario" argument vs Nova_Tera IMO, but I think that's not an issue. Also brought up that noone is defending FirmTofu, although he again was not the first one to do so. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. Mementoss: Very active, posting analysis. Brought up Eleanthas, stated his position on several players. Does not look suspicious. Seviro: another rather active player, although content may be debatable. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. cosine: He speaks out several times vs a lurker lynch on Day1, but then jumps easily on the FirmTofu bandwagon to lynch a lurker. Besides defending himself, he did not add anything substantial. I don't like that. Eleanthas: His posting is still lacking, he actually only reiterated the wordings of others. His only longer post is this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:57 Eleanthas wrote:Ok. Sorry for not responding. Saw discussion towards me at school with my phone, but really hard to write anything with it so decided to wait untill I come home. Anyway have been busy atm. Will change now. 1So what Can i say about first post. It was really just a post to tell people I'm alive. In some forums, you get replaced if you don't speak on first half of day, so I guess I followed that rule there. Had really nothing to say. Just plain stupid first post from me. 2About Nova_Terra: He seems eager to accuse anybody scum if given even a small chance. I guess he is trying to presure players to talk to get discussion going on. Doesn't seem too scummy for me, but have to keep eye on him. 3So what I think about InfernOokami7: On March 12 2012 08:40 InfernOokami7 wrote:
I'm not 100% in favor of a no lynch on day 1 as long as there is a reasonable amount of suspicion for someone. I just didn't see the point in voting to lynch someone if the reason wasn't there because instead of just giving the mafia a free pass for the night, you're giving them a 2 for 1 deal instead. beside that post he has 4 post saying pretty much same. I guess he is trying to lurk by stating same thing in many posts. Would like to hear about him. 4And lastly about FirmTofu: Like many others pointed out FirmTofu posted 2 fast posts. Seems kinda suspicous to me. Telling to pick one of the lurkers and listing them and then vanishing. If we don't hear about him, my vote is gonna go for him. 5
##Vote FirmTofu 1 + 2 Apologizes for not posting earlier, then calls his own first post stupid, although the post itself was not that bad. The fact that he did not post more after this short oneliner was bad. 3 Seviro, Mementoss and Sbrubbles already pointed out the exact same thing. Actually, just take a look at Mementoss phrase: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:33 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with this post, it seems NovaTerra is eager to FoS despite how early in the game it was, which seems a little suspicious. But, it is most likely just a pressure play, to get the discussion rolling, and people talking. Eleanthas post is the same content with different wording. 4 Was brought up in a similar form by Mementoss. 5 Was brought up by pretty much everyone active in the thread at that time. So, he actually said nothing. The comments on each of his 3 "suspects" are really short and only repeat thoughts brought up by others. For me, he is one of the more suspect persons in the game. ##FoS: Eleanthas
Even though the vote switch does not prove innocence or town so this seems a bit odd. Unless it was pre-planned. FirmTofu already had the majority, so Nova_Terra could switch. Phagga could then post an analysis post, to look town, while leaving out any analysis of his scum buddy Nova_Terra, without looking suspicious because of the vote switch.
These are just some things I noticed and my thoughts for now. But as of now, I'm leaning towards ##FOS: Nova Terran
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EBWOP: It seems Nova_Terra has posted a defense, didn't notice as I was in mid post making my case. Don't have time to read or respond ATM. But will come back to it later when I am available to read it all/ think of my response/thoughts about it.
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On March 14 2012 21:52 Mementoss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 14:13 Seviro wrote:GG sbrubbles, be sure that we'll avenge your death. At first I was like why kill him, he was not really active, did not really help the town the first day and I didn't see him being a threat for anyone. Now after looking at his filter, his death give me some pointers. First, only 2 post of him contain some sort of analysis/suspicion. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
On March 12 2012 23:29 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. You didn't accuse him? Short of actually voting for the fellow, threatening to vote for someone is as accusatory as it gets: + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 01:57 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:51 Seviro wrote:On March 11 2012 20:18 Nova_Terra wrote:
Please explain yourself. I dont like cosines play so far, his only post comes after someone accusing him of lurking. not only does he not bring anything new to the table, he confuses us and discredits others post (tofus) and calls it stupid.
Here I don't see how he is different than you about posting just after being accusiing of lurking since your first post was just after FirmTOfu called the current people in the game that hadn't post at this time On March 11 2012 17:36 Nova_Terra wrote:Hey, Sorry, I was asleep for the last 8 hours and just woke up I agree with always pushing a lynch as long as there is aome evidence that shows that the person is likely to be scum. for instance lurkers, bad defenders, etc. i also agree with a no lynch as long as there is overwhelming evidence that shows lynch candidates as being townies. But I guess you're right since he didn't post at all since then, where you have. I just think that FOSing someone this early in the game (8 hour ago was early I mean) after only a single post is a bit suspicious but I do agree that he is not clear of suspicion with his one post, not worth a FOS yet though Yeah, it was a funny coincedence that he posted that right before i woke up. i also pointed out the post before how the suspicion should also be on me. The thing is though, his post was extremely messed up and seemed very scummy. i definitely think it is worth an FOS seeing as nothing else was happening and i want him to clarify it up. its not like i voted for him yet or anything. On March 12 2012 01:59 Nova_Terra wrote:
EBWOP: and if cosine doesnt post and we dont get any other leads i feel that he would be a good lynch candidate.
Also, why so angry? Why do you insist (once again) on explaining the motives for your change of atitude? I pointed out that you were quick to turn defensive (or frustrated, as you say) when you were called out on it and it is my opinion that this is suspicious behavior, but that this doesn't matter for now because it is not worth it to push on a talkative (potential) mafia because there will be plenty of time for you to slip up later on if you really are scum. Now your answer is to threaten me, calling me suspicious? Anyway, question here: if the we agree to lynch a lurker, how are we gonna go about it? Bandwagon on the first non-replied accusation? At this point, besides Elean, we can consider a Inferno as a lurker. His post may not be contradictory like Elean (as in, he doesn't call himself worthless and suggests himself to be lynched), but he also hasn't contributed to the thread. Firmtofu looked like he was gonna participate but also hasn't said anything. In both of them, he state his suspicion on the early behaviour of Nova_Terra, maybe he was on something here. So I looked up Nova_Terra's filter and noticed so good thing. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. In this one, he confront Scrubbles after he called him out on his early agressiveness, saying that it was to have some sort of conversatioin going out but also adding that he was frustrated by the town for not agreeing with him. Then he add to not "discredit his post by calling it inexperience/carelessness" where in fact Scrubbles was in fact only giving him some sort of excuse for what he posted earlier. As Scrubbles said, being defensive over such a small thing is suspicious to me. He then end his post on a semi-random call on eleanthas by saying that he is "thinking him". This way of wording it is like he want us to start pressuring eleanthas ourselves without stating it. That one-line call bugs me out a lot. He then tell why he thinks Scrubbles post was suspicous. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 17:09 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
I just want to point out like posts like this are scummy. Not making any “accusations” or anything. 1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. 2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion 3. Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness 4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. Show nested quote +1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. Why would Scrubbles throw the blame on him when he was not even targetted at all. I mean it's not like Scrubbles was our main target and he wanted to put the spot on another one whereas it is exactly waht Nova_Terra is doing by turning his post against him. Show nested quote +2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion. He is dodging the fact that Scrubbles want more explanation about his early FOS by implying that there is nothing more to add and that Scrubbles is just wanting to bring up old discussion whereas it was legitimate of him to want some more since he was not convince of his innocence yet. See point 2, that is exactly what Nova do. Show nested quote +4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. What he did before on Eleanthas. Also, that was not what Scrubbles was doing he just happen to have come online after the veil of suspicion was lifted on Nova and he just wanted some clarification. Show nested quote +As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. So well at this point pretty self-explanatory. Finally I will quote myself. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 08:36 Seviro wrote:Oh god i'm late to the party today, Real life can be a whore Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:34 Nova_Terra wrote:
Okay, gossemerr, read the post above. I dont feel that a lynch on firmtofu will have any non-town results.
This is not trying to lynch you. I apologise for being so wishy washy and understand why people may not like this decision.
Unvote: FirmTofu
Vote: Gossemerr
I think you would be better voting for a no lynch because voting randomly for someone like this seems a bit scummy in my opinion but i guess you just didn't notice that you could just vote no lynch I think by voting on someone else since Tofu was most likely dead anyways, he wanted to not be associated with his death since he knew he was a townie (if he is a scum of course) and that kind of worked. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 22:48 phagga wrote:So, the bandwagon on FirmTofu was rolling to easy. There was no opposition. As scum profits from mislynches, I am sure we will find at least 1 if not 2 scum on the voters of FirmTofu. Here's the final voting stand on FirmTofu again: FirmTofu (7): phagga, Eleanthas, Janaan, Gossemerr, Mementoss, Seviro, cosine, Janaan: He agrees on FirmTofu, and brings up Koritora as new suspect after the lynch with good reason. Does not look suspicious. Gossemerr: Trying to be active and helpful, lacking some content. Went a bit overboard with the "specific scenario" argument vs Nova_Tera IMO, but I think that's not an issue. Also brought up that noone is defending FirmTofu, although he again was not the first one to do so. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. Mementoss: Very active, posting analysis. Brought up Eleanthas, stated his position on several players. Does not look suspicious. Seviro: another rather active player, although content may be debatable. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. cosine: He speaks out several times vs a lurker lynch on Day1, but then jumps easily on the FirmTofu bandwagon to lynch a lurker. Besides defending himself, he did not add anything substantial. I don't like that. Eleanthas: His posting is still lacking, he actually only reiterated the wordings of others. His only longer post is this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:57 Eleanthas wrote:Ok. Sorry for not responding. Saw discussion towards me at school with my phone, but really hard to write anything with it so decided to wait untill I come home. Anyway have been busy atm. Will change now. 1So what Can i say about first post. It was really just a post to tell people I'm alive. In some forums, you get replaced if you don't speak on first half of day, so I guess I followed that rule there. Had really nothing to say. Just plain stupid first post from me. 2About Nova_Terra: He seems eager to accuse anybody scum if given even a small chance. I guess he is trying to presure players to talk to get discussion going on. Doesn't seem too scummy for me, but have to keep eye on him. 3So what I think about InfernOokami7: On March 12 2012 08:40 InfernOokami7 wrote:
I'm not 100% in favor of a no lynch on day 1 as long as there is a reasonable amount of suspicion for someone. I just didn't see the point in voting to lynch someone if the reason wasn't there because instead of just giving the mafia a free pass for the night, you're giving them a 2 for 1 deal instead. beside that post he has 4 post saying pretty much same. I guess he is trying to lurk by stating same thing in many posts. Would like to hear about him. 4And lastly about FirmTofu: Like many others pointed out FirmTofu posted 2 fast posts. Seems kinda suspicous to me. Telling to pick one of the lurkers and listing them and then vanishing. If we don't hear about him, my vote is gonna go for him. 5
##Vote FirmTofu 1 + 2 Apologizes for not posting earlier, then calls his own first post stupid, although the post itself was not that bad. The fact that he did not post more after this short oneliner was bad. 3 Seviro, Mementoss and Sbrubbles already pointed out the exact same thing. Actually, just take a look at Mementoss phrase: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:33 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with this post, it seems NovaTerra is eager to FoS despite how early in the game it was, which seems a little suspicious. But, it is most likely just a pressure play, to get the discussion rolling, and people talking. Eleanthas post is the same content with different wording. 4 Was brought up in a similar form by Mementoss. 5 Was brought up by pretty much everyone active in the thread at that time. So, he actually said nothing. The comments on each of his 3 "suspects" are really short and only repeat thoughts brought up by others. For me, he is one of the more suspect persons in the game. ##FoS: Eleanthas in his post Phagga write a global analysis of everyone that vote for the lynch without touching to those who didn't. If I'm correct, that was quite a nice play from Nova. So Nova_Terra I can't wait for your answers. That said, I'm going to bed ##Big FOS:Nova_Terra Wow, long post. I also was surprised when I seen this mafia kill. I immediately thought the same thing that mafia kills are usually motivated by people who on the right track for hunting scum. The only person to put relatively any pressure on NovaTerra was Sbrubbles. Of course this is just WIFOM situation, as the mafia could just be trying to mess with the town there is no way of knowing. But I do find it interesting the way NovaTerra replied. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. This reply is very defensive. He FoS'd him, but in an aggressive manner to get the whole town on board early, at least for a thought. By being aggressive and FoS an early proof of innocence, doing what is good for the town.Also by the same most people would be thinking that no mafia would be that aggressive early game. Is that what he wants us to think? Then he goes on to state Eleanthas is his most suspicious at the moment. Then bam, change of though Sbrubbles is his suspicious now. OMGUS sorta attitude. You think i'm suspicious well that makes you suspicious kind of defensive manuever. Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 17:09 Nova_Terra wrote:On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
I just want to point out like posts like this are scummy. Not making any “accusations” or anything. 1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. 2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion 3. Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness 4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. On March 12 2012 10:46 Sbrubbles wrote:We have Koritora, Phagga, Elean and Inferno lurking as of this moment. On March 12 2012 10:22 koritora wrote:
However, to lynch a lurker is not a bad thing. It's not helping anyone in the town. As for people against lynching on the Day 1, that's where my suspicion lies. Sure, Koritora, we could single out Inferno (or whoever you're actually referring to) for not being dead set on lynching without cause, but I don't think this is scum behavior per se. The fact that he actually has an opinion and wrote a bit on it, though, is good for singling him out if he does have a scummy attitude later on. Your post, on the other hand, doesn't add anything to the discussion and doesn't even have enough content so that we can use it to analyse you later on. So, how about putting a little more effort? Arguably, you are contributing on close to the same level as Koritora. The main thing is that you don’t really add anything except with disagreeing with other people. To you as well, what are your thoughts on cosine and Eleanthas in particular? It seems that you ignored most of the discussion relating to this. I have the same thoughts on this as Seviro, basically, but i'll quickly go through it. 1. "Throws blame on others." Why would he do this? No one suspected Sbrubbles. 2."Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion" - At that point discussion was discussion, and overall your argument wasn't exactly strong, so it was more like disagreeing not , not understanding. 3. "Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness" - Trying to give a reason for your defensiveness if you were town 4. "Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious." - I think he was just against early FoS because he wasn't confident in his read on you without more posts. Not because he didn't want to bring further attention to himself. Also as stated before, the vote change by Nova_Terra was weird. He didn't push the town to get off of Tofu's case until it was too late to lose majority. Does this make him innocent, just because he didn't have a final vote for a townie. Well it looks like that is the way he was trying to make it look. Also I noticed something else that was a bit weird. Maybe just a coincidence. The connection between Phagga and Nova_Terra1. Only 2 people to have suspicion on Sbrubbles. Phagga and Nova_Terra. I've already shown Nova's so here is Phaggas post. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 18:33 phagga wrote:Where is FirmTofu? He posted a lurker list 5 hours into the game (which is VERY early for a lurkerlist) and has not posted since then. If we would hold him up to his own standard, he is lurking very hard. You can see his filter hereI read through all the filters, and besides FirmTofu the following people are rather suspicious to me: - Eleanthas (Only posted a one liner) - koritora (not posting anything of value) - sbrubbles (only two posts in rapid succession where he basically calls out lurkers and fluff, only to disappear again). IMO, if there is a DT out there, these four would be possible check targets. What do you guys think about it? Also, if none of them adds anyhting significant in the next 6 hours, my vote will go to one of these four. Soft deadline 8 hours before is ok with me. Also, as a heads up, I generally won't be around on deadline, as it is at 3 am in my timezone. By final vote will normally be casted around 5 to 3 hours before deadline. --> Also maybe trying to push a waste of DT check onto Sbrubbles? 2. Another agreeance on the DT check, again maybe trying to lure out a Blue or waste a check? + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 02:30 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 01:21 phagga wrote:
So, if there is a DT in this game, and he does not know who he should check, I would propose that he chose someone from this list:
- Eleanthas
- koritora
- cosine
What does everyone else think? I am in agreement with those three being good suspects for a dt to check. I want them (as well as everyone else) to come and post more. The trend seems to be posting some excuse for not posting and then not posting again. I have a couple other minor suspicions right now, but nothing worth noting, until i have a bit more to work with. 3. First to defend Nova_Terra + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 18:47 phagga wrote:
Seviro, while I like your analysis on a first glance, I would like to note that you start your case with some heavy WIFOM.
We have no idea what the motives of the mafia are for killing sbrubbles. We can only speculate. And if we speculate wrong, we might start hunting and lynching people for the wrong reasons, we will get WIFOM, it will create more uncertainty than facts. The only ones profiting from it will be the mafia.
There is no benefit in guessing what the mafia is up to. Also, it does not matter. Whatever the mafia wanted to achieve, we just need to make sure that we can lynch them, then we win.
However, I think your case is not only base on WIFOM, so I will go through it later when I have more time. --> Doesn't really go into the case, just dis regards it because it has some WIFOM. When really, there was a lot of WIFOM but there were some other good points too, that he didn't post his opinion on. Adds some fluff about trying to guess what the mafia is up to is useless. Well usually finding what the mafia are up to leads to them, and it all starts making sense. Or you find a mafia, then you find what they were up to and make a connection that way. So yes eventually mafia motives are relevant. 4. Leaves Nova_terra out of his analysis because of the vote switch. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 22:48 phagga wrote:So, the bandwagon on FirmTofu was rolling to easy. There was no opposition. As scum profits from mislynches, I am sure we will find at least 1 if not 2 scum on the voters of FirmTofu. Here's the final voting stand on FirmTofu again: FirmTofu (7): phagga, Eleanthas, Janaan, Gossemerr, Mementoss, Seviro, cosine, Janaan: He agrees on FirmTofu, and brings up Koritora as new suspect after the lynch with good reason. Does not look suspicious. Gossemerr: Trying to be active and helpful, lacking some content. Went a bit overboard with the "specific scenario" argument vs Nova_Tera IMO, but I think that's not an issue. Also brought up that noone is defending FirmTofu, although he again was not the first one to do so. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. Mementoss: Very active, posting analysis. Brought up Eleanthas, stated his position on several players. Does not look suspicious. Seviro: another rather active player, although content may be debatable. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. cosine: He speaks out several times vs a lurker lynch on Day1, but then jumps easily on the FirmTofu bandwagon to lynch a lurker. Besides defending himself, he did not add anything substantial. I don't like that. Eleanthas: His posting is still lacking, he actually only reiterated the wordings of others. His only longer post is this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:57 Eleanthas wrote:Ok. Sorry for not responding. Saw discussion towards me at school with my phone, but really hard to write anything with it so decided to wait untill I come home. Anyway have been busy atm. Will change now. 1So what Can i say about first post. It was really just a post to tell people I'm alive. In some forums, you get replaced if you don't speak on first half of day, so I guess I followed that rule there. Had really nothing to say. Just plain stupid first post from me. 2About Nova_Terra: He seems eager to accuse anybody scum if given even a small chance. I guess he is trying to presure players to talk to get discussion going on. Doesn't seem too scummy for me, but have to keep eye on him. 3So what I think about InfernOokami7: On March 12 2012 08:40 InfernOokami7 wrote:
I'm not 100% in favor of a no lynch on day 1 as long as there is a reasonable amount of suspicion for someone. I just didn't see the point in voting to lynch someone if the reason wasn't there because instead of just giving the mafia a free pass for the night, you're giving them a 2 for 1 deal instead. beside that post he has 4 post saying pretty much same. I guess he is trying to lurk by stating same thing in many posts. Would like to hear about him. 4And lastly about FirmTofu: Like many others pointed out FirmTofu posted 2 fast posts. Seems kinda suspicous to me. Telling to pick one of the lurkers and listing them and then vanishing. If we don't hear about him, my vote is gonna go for him. 5
##Vote FirmTofu 1 + 2 Apologizes for not posting earlier, then calls his own first post stupid, although the post itself was not that bad. The fact that he did not post more after this short oneliner was bad. 3 Seviro, Mementoss and Sbrubbles already pointed out the exact same thing. Actually, just take a look at Mementoss phrase: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:33 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with this post, it seems NovaTerra is eager to FoS despite how early in the game it was, which seems a little suspicious. But, it is most likely just a pressure play, to get the discussion rolling, and people talking. Eleanthas post is the same content with different wording. 4 Was brought up in a similar form by Mementoss. 5 Was brought up by pretty much everyone active in the thread at that time. So, he actually said nothing. The comments on each of his 3 "suspects" are really short and only repeat thoughts brought up by others. For me, he is one of the more suspect persons in the game. ##FoS: Eleanthas Even though the vote switch does not prove innocence or town so this seems a bit odd. Unless it was pre-planned. FirmTofu already had the majority, so Nova_Terra could switch. Phagga could then post an analysis post, to look town, while leaving out any analysis of his scum buddy Nova_Terra, without looking suspicious because of the vote switch. These are just some things I noticed and my thoughts for now. But as of now, I'm leaning towards ##FOS: Nova Terran
Hi, just wanted to clarify a couple of things before you go through my defense. after you do, please feel free to ask me any more questions, as long as they havent already been defended against, i would be glad to answer them.
The thing about why Sbrubbles' post was suspicious was not a defensive maneuver. I was attempting to state that his post was suspicious as well, not because he accused me or anything.
1. If Sbrubbles had been mafia, I do think that a likely strategy would be to try to blame other people for mistakes. Which is why i pointed out the blame thing.
2. I did find that he had seemingly not understood my posts, as he was referencing questions that i thought i had already answered completely. The fact that there was barely any discussion happening notwithstanding.
3. Of course, there is a reason for defensiveness, as being thought of as a likely mafia who could easily be lynched is a bad thing, and therefore i was showing why i defended myself.
4. Probable, but at least by my logic his post was enough against me to warrant further investigation.
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EBWOP:
Yeah, i noticed phagga supporting me and i just assumed it was because he thought i was town, as i am.
Wasnt sure if he was trying to buddy me, or just thought like me or something, but I was pleased that at least someone agreed with my status as an active townie. He did say though that he was busy and would go through his case when he had the time and did not dismiss it.
The thing about the DT check was so that the DT wouldnt be alone in deciding who to check, and would be able to secretly know what other towns though.
I still stand by my opinion of Sbrubbles having seemed suspicious. Especially so as he seemed to have ignored my posts multiple times, where he was referenced in them and where i directly asked him to share some thoughts.
I still feel that i am one of the people who is providing the most pro-town ideas and thoughts. Maybe my brain just works strangely.
You are entirely correct to question my wishy washy vote switch, which i immediately admitted, and i feel that that was the most/only really suspicious thing i did. However, i feel that it was the right move, and it was as he was town.
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Meanwhile, I would also like to draw a bit of attention to Janaan.
As i was looking through his filter, i often saw a trend. he would post something questioning somebody else, to get their reads on everything, and then not post much about his thoughts. Also, as a way of avoiding posting much about his own thoughts, he would say that nothing seems to have changed, or something of the sort.
Janaan, I would love it if you could make a post explaining your reads on people so far. too much happens by way of your posts and not enough happens that questions your posts.
Note that this is not an FOS.
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Day 2 vote. Remember you need a majority at the deadline to lynch,
Current votes:
Not voting: Nova_Terra, Eleanthas, koritora, Gossemerr, cosine, Mementoss, Janaan, Seviro, InfernOokami7, phagga
The Day deadline is at 2012-03-16 12:00:00. (That's approximately 1 day, 11:55:58 from now.)
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Sorry about not getting on to defend myself. It's really inexcusable, but I just wanted to clarify that yes, I did get caught up in some real life issues and the game slipped my mind. I need to get into the habit to clicking the subforum, but alas, what's done is done.
I'll try to make up for it in future games. Until then, peace.
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Ok, I've read through your analysis, and there is some good stuff in it. For now I am just going to point out one or two things.
On March 14 2012 14:13 Seviro wrote:
GG sbrubbles, be sure that we'll avenge your death.
At first I was like why kill him, he was not really active, did not really help the town the first day and I didn't see him being a threat for anyone.
Now after looking at his filter, his death give me some pointers.
As I said before, this is WIFOM. We really should not be basing any cases on such speculation. However, there are still some good points following.
On March 14 2012 14:13 Seviro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 17:09 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
I just want to point out like posts like this are scummy. Not making any “accusations” or anything. 1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. 2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion 3. Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness 4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. Show nested quote +1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. Why would Scrubbles throw the blame on him when he was not even targetted at all. I mean it's not like Scrubbles was our main target and he wanted to put the spot on another one whereas it is exactly waht Nova_Terra is doing by turning his post against him. Show nested quote +2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion. He is dodging the fact that Scrubbles want more explanation about his early FOS by implying that there is nothing more to add and that Scrubbles is just wanting to bring up old discussion whereas it was legitimate of him to want some more since he was not convince of his innocence yet. See point 2, that is exactly what Nova do. Show nested quote +4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. What he did before on Eleanthas. Also, that was not what Scrubbles was doing he just happen to have come online after the veil of suspicion was lifted on Nova and he just wanted some clarification. Show nested quote +As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. So well at this point pretty self-explanatory.
These are some good finds, specially points 2 to 4. They may come from just being very eager to participate, but it is something to keep in mind.
On March 14 2012 14:13 Seviro wrote:
in his post Phagga write a global analysis of everyone that vote for the lynch without touching to those who didn't. If I'm correct, that was quite a nice play from Nova.
It is something I considered when writing my post, which is why I kept Nova_Tera and sbrubbles in the back of my head. But as sbrubbles move showed, it is not necessarly a scum move to do.
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I am cutting down to the part that is about me.
On March 14 2012 21:52 Mementoss wrote:Also I noticed something else that was a bit weird. Maybe just a coincidence. The connection between Phagga and Nova_Terra1. Only 2 people to have suspicion on Sbrubbles. Phagga and Nova_Terra. I've already shown Nova's so here is Phaggas post. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 18:33 phagga wrote:Where is FirmTofu? He posted a lurker list 5 hours into the game (which is VERY early for a lurkerlist) and has not posted since then. If we would hold him up to his own standard, he is lurking very hard. You can see his filter hereI read through all the filters, and besides FirmTofu the following people are rather suspicious to me: - Eleanthas (Only posted a one liner) - koritora (not posting anything of value) - sbrubbles (only two posts in rapid succession where he basically calls out lurkers and fluff, only to disappear again). IMO, if there is a DT out there, these four would be possible check targets. What do you guys think about it? Also, if none of them adds anyhting significant in the next 6 hours, my vote will go to one of these four. Soft deadline 8 hours before is ok with me. Also, as a heads up, I generally won't be around on deadline, as it is at 3 am in my timezone. By final vote will normally be casted around 5 to 3 hours before deadline. --> Also maybe trying to push a waste of DT check onto Sbrubbles? 2. Another agreeance on the DT check, again maybe trying to lure out a Blue or waste a check? + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 02:30 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 01:21 phagga wrote:
So, if there is a DT in this game, and he does not know who he should check, I would propose that he chose someone from this list:
- Eleanthas
- koritora
- cosine
What does everyone else think? I am in agreement with those three being good suspects for a dt to check. I want them (as well as everyone else) to come and post more. The trend seems to be posting some excuse for not posting and then not posting again. I have a couple other minor suspicions right now, but nothing worth noting, until i have a bit more to work with.
1.) Making DT check lists is a way to get town more active. It is even mentioned in BloodyC0bblers Post "TL Town Breakdown / Analysis".
+ Show Spoiler +Towns lately talk too many generalities, and not enough specifics. People will open day 1 with discussion of how their blues could or could not perform that game. While this isn’t a bad place to start, as specifics are never mentioned it lets the mafia easily blend in. Every player roughly knows what the players should be doing with x blue role.
However, if you instead bring in specifics:
Detective checklists
Medic lists
Make watch lists of players
These sort of topics put names down. As soon as a name hits a list discussion should ultimately start on “why is x there, why isn’t y?” “If I’m on a detective check list or watch list does that mean I’m suspected of being red?” etc…
It means people have to get personally involved and risk giving up their alignment. Does someone soft defend or hard defend someone being put on a watch list or the like is something to watch for.
The more discussion you can generate via lists like this the more likely reds will slip up. If everyone but player x is talking about these topics, player x could be a) red b) inactive.
Either or he’s not helping and voila day 1 lynch.
This is exactly the reason why I made these lists: To give people something to discuss. This game is a ghost town, we are currently 6 people participating, while 3 people have not posted at all in the last 36 hours and another one is dodging us with defense and counter questions. We need more activity. That is the main reason why I made these lists.
2.) I am not fishing for blue roles or make them waste their checks. As I stated earlier, the blues are up to do whatever they want to. I also never asked any blue to share their findings, or breadcrumb anything into the thread.
On March 14 2012 21:52 Mementoss wrote:3. First to defend Nova_Terra + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 18:47 phagga wrote:
Seviro, while I like your analysis on a first glance, I would like to note that you start your case with some heavy WIFOM.
We have no idea what the motives of the mafia are for killing sbrubbles. We can only speculate. And if we speculate wrong, we might start hunting and lynching people for the wrong reasons, we will get WIFOM, it will create more uncertainty than facts. The only ones profiting from it will be the mafia.
There is no benefit in guessing what the mafia is up to. Also, it does not matter. Whatever the mafia wanted to achieve, we just need to make sure that we can lynch them, then we win.
However, I think your case is not only base on WIFOM, so I will go through it later when I have more time. --> Doesn't really go into the case, just dis regards it because it has some WIFOM 1. When really, there was a lot of WIFOM but there were some other good points too, that he didn't post his opinion on. Adds some fluff about trying to guess what the mafia is up to is useless. Well usually finding what the mafia are up to leads to them, and it all starts making sense. Or you find a mafia, then you find what they were up to and make a connection that way. 2So yes eventually mafia motives are relevant.
Are you serious? I get the feeling you did this on purpose.
1 I wrote in this very post you are quoting that:
- "while I like your analysis on a first glance[...]"
- "I think your case is not only base on WIFOM, so I will go through it later when I have more time."
How you can interprete this as "disregarding the post" is beyond me.
2 Finding a mafia may lead to the rest of mafia, agreed. But finding out why the mafia did a specific night kill is a waste of time. There are so many ways for mafia to make us believe one thing while they do something completely other that it is not worth speculating about why they killed a specific player or left another one alive. Also, clever mafia can mess with our heads by killing a townie that was tunneling another townie, giving town the impression that the tunneled townie was actually scum. This leads directly to a mislynch.
So, no, speculating about the motives of night kills leads to WIFOM and mislynches. Avoid it.
On March 14 2012 21:52 Mementoss wrote:4. Leaves Nova_terra out of his analysis because of the vote switch. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 22:48 phagga wrote:So, the bandwagon on FirmTofu was rolling to easy. There was no opposition. As scum profits from mislynches, I am sure we will find at least 1 if not 2 scum on the voters of FirmTofu. Here's the final voting stand on FirmTofu again: FirmTofu (7): phagga, Eleanthas, Janaan, Gossemerr, Mementoss, Seviro, cosine, Janaan: He agrees on FirmTofu, and brings up Koritora as new suspect after the lynch with good reason. Does not look suspicious. Gossemerr: Trying to be active and helpful, lacking some content. Went a bit overboard with the "specific scenario" argument vs Nova_Tera IMO, but I think that's not an issue. Also brought up that noone is defending FirmTofu, although he again was not the first one to do so. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. Mementoss: Very active, posting analysis. Brought up Eleanthas, stated his position on several players. Does not look suspicious. Seviro: another rather active player, although content may be debatable. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. cosine: He speaks out several times vs a lurker lynch on Day1, but then jumps easily on the FirmTofu bandwagon to lynch a lurker. Besides defending himself, he did not add anything substantial. I don't like that. Eleanthas: His posting is still lacking, he actually only reiterated the wordings of others. His only longer post is this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:57 Eleanthas wrote:Ok. Sorry for not responding. Saw discussion towards me at school with my phone, but really hard to write anything with it so decided to wait untill I come home. Anyway have been busy atm. Will change now. 1So what Can i say about first post. It was really just a post to tell people I'm alive. In some forums, you get replaced if you don't speak on first half of day, so I guess I followed that rule there. Had really nothing to say. Just plain stupid first post from me. 2About Nova_Terra: He seems eager to accuse anybody scum if given even a small chance. I guess he is trying to presure players to talk to get discussion going on. Doesn't seem too scummy for me, but have to keep eye on him. 3So what I think about InfernOokami7: On March 12 2012 08:40 InfernOokami7 wrote:
I'm not 100% in favor of a no lynch on day 1 as long as there is a reasonable amount of suspicion for someone. I just didn't see the point in voting to lynch someone if the reason wasn't there because instead of just giving the mafia a free pass for the night, you're giving them a 2 for 1 deal instead. beside that post he has 4 post saying pretty much same. I guess he is trying to lurk by stating same thing in many posts. Would like to hear about him. 4And lastly about FirmTofu: Like many others pointed out FirmTofu posted 2 fast posts. Seems kinda suspicous to me. Telling to pick one of the lurkers and listing them and then vanishing. If we don't hear about him, my vote is gonna go for him. 5
##Vote FirmTofu 1 + 2 Apologizes for not posting earlier, then calls his own first post stupid, although the post itself was not that bad. The fact that he did not post more after this short oneliner was bad. 3 Seviro, Mementoss and Sbrubbles already pointed out the exact same thing. Actually, just take a look at Mementoss phrase: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:33 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with this post, it seems NovaTerra is eager to FoS despite how early in the game it was, which seems a little suspicious. But, it is most likely just a pressure play, to get the discussion rolling, and people talking. Eleanthas post is the same content with different wording. 4 Was brought up in a similar form by Mementoss. 5 Was brought up by pretty much everyone active in the thread at that time. So, he actually said nothing. The comments on each of his 3 "suspects" are really short and only repeat thoughts brought up by others. For me, he is one of the more suspect persons in the game. ##FoS: Eleanthas Even though the vote switch does not prove innocence or town so this seems a bit odd. Unless it was pre-planned. FirmTofu already had the majority, so Nova_Terra could switch. Phagga could then post an analysis post, to look town, while leaving out any analysis of his scum buddy Nova_Terra, without looking suspicious because of the vote switch.
Again, the reason why I chose the ones that voted on FirmTofu is because it is almost guaranteed that there was some scum in there. So it is interesting to look at these specific player and how they acted so far, what their reasons for lynching FirmTofu were and how they generally behaved. As I wrote in another post this does not make any non-voter of FirmTofu AutoTown, but it means that I concentrate on one specific group of players for a moment and look at their behaviour.
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This lack of activity is utterly depressing.
Mafia literally doesnt even have to post as enough town is lurking as well that they can just sit back and watch townies clobber eachother because the only ones that get accused are the ones speaking.
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On March 14 2012 22:32 Nova_Terra wrote:
Meanwhile, I would also like to draw a bit of attention to Janaan.
As i was looking through his filter, i often saw a trend. he would post something questioning somebody else, to get their reads on everything, and then not post much about his thoughts. Also, as a way of avoiding posting much about his own thoughts, he would say that nothing seems to have changed, or something of the sort.
Janaan, I would love it if you could make a post explaining your reads on people so far. too much happens by way of your posts and not enough happens that questions your posts.
Note that this is not an FOS.
At the moment, there's been so much limited activity, I'm finding it hard to get decent reads off.
I'm still waiting for an answer from Koritora, but at the moment, he's my best scum read for the reasons that I presented earlier.
Phagga is looking pretty townie to me, his posts make a lot of sense to me and seem to have the right intentions behind them.
Nova_Terra, I don't really know what to think about you, to be honest. It seems like you're trying to be active and helpful, but things like your defense of your actions on day 1 being very defensive and emotionally charged don't quite sit right with me. Neutral for the moment.
Seviro actually looks a bit scummy to me, not enough to come out with any sort of case on him, but I'm keeping close watch on him. Bits like
On March 13 2012 14:57 Seviro wrote:
I guess we'll have to wait for the mafia kill to get some more information depending on who they kill.
after Day 1 ended, implying that we should simply wait until after Night 1 is over before doing anything, wasting 24 hours, doesn't look good to me. Then his accusation of Nova_Terra was full of WIFOM argument, and possibly confirmation bias.
Mementoss has a townie feel to me, he's been a fairly active poster so far, and seems to be speaking his mind on what's going on.
The other players, I don't have nearly enough posts from them to make any kind of read. The trouble is that it's quite possible for all the mafia to be in this category, but we can't know for sure until they decide to start posting.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2012 03:26 Janaan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:32 Nova_Terra wrote:
Meanwhile, I would also like to draw a bit of attention to Janaan.
As i was looking through his filter, i often saw a trend. he would post something questioning somebody else, to get their reads on everything, and then not post much about his thoughts. Also, as a way of avoiding posting much about his own thoughts, he would say that nothing seems to have changed, or something of the sort.
Janaan, I would love it if you could make a post explaining your reads on people so far. too much happens by way of your posts and not enough happens that questions your posts.
Note that this is not an FOS. At the moment, there's been so much limited activity, I'm finding it hard to get decent reads off. I'm still waiting for an answer from Koritora, but at the moment, he's my best scum read for the reasons that I presented earlier. Phagga is looking pretty townie to me, his posts make a lot of sense to me and seem to have the right intentions behind them. Nova_Terra, I don't really know what to think about you, to be honest. It seems like you're trying to be active and helpful, but things like your defense of your actions on day 1 being very defensive and emotionally charged don't quite sit right with me. Neutral for the moment. Seviro actually looks a bit scummy to me, not enough to come out with any sort of case on him, but I'm keeping close watch on him. Bits like Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 14:57 Seviro wrote:
I guess we'll have to wait for the mafia kill to get some more information depending on who they kill. after Day 1 ended, implying that we should simply wait until after Night 1 is over before doing anything, wasting 24 hours, doesn't look good to me. Then his accusation of Nova_Terra was full of WIFOM argument, and possibly confirmation bias. Mementoss has a townie feel to me, he's been a fairly active poster so far, and seems to be speaking his mind on what's going on. The other players, I don't have nearly enough posts from them to make any kind of read. The trouble is that it's quite possible for all the mafia to be in this category, but we can't know for sure until they decide to start posting.
Okay, fair enough.
I cant help but feel like we are doomed unless people start posting.
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On March 14 2012 07:24 phagga wrote:
But how about you tell us what you think of Koritora and Cosine?
So about Koritora:
I have really mixed feelings about him. I don't really like, how he starts the game. ''No proof, don't lynch'' attitude makes him look really scummy. On other hand, why would any mafia say that on first post? Seems like careless townie to me.
Action after that seems to nothing too special, but voting made me really curious.
On March 13 2012 09:37 koritora wrote:
Well besides the fact FirmTofu has only made talk about lynching a lurker, there isn't really much else to go on. Same case can be made for InfernoOkami7. But since either hasn't spoken up lately, I can only assume they are lurking and that puts my vote up in the air for these two unless they come and contribute something meaningful. But as of the moment, I can't decide between the two and therefore going with a no lynch.
##Vote: No Lynch
''But sine either hasn't spoken up lately...'' Inferno had really posted much more. Tough his posts had been him trying to state his earlier posts. Still Inferno had come about 3 hours earlir and defended himself and told, why we should lynch FirmTofu.
It seems to me, that Koritora is trying to play it save right now. I hope that he comes and speaks up for himself. His actions look bit scummy, but really atleast I want to hear more about him, before starting really to point my finger towards him.
And Cosine:
He seems really confusing. I get mixed feeling about his past with mafia. Seems like he isn't new with mafia but just really odd how he still messes up with terms etc. Or are the terms really Team Liquid spesific?
I don't really have other problems with Cosine. I think his justificatios for lynch were fine and he has been responding to suspects and discussed fine. Now he seems to have dropped out from the discussion. Hope he shows up soon.
Now I'm trying to look over discussion going on now and post about it hopefully soon.
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Alright I have a couple things on my mind that I'm gunna post as well as some responses. So here we go:
@Phagga:
+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2012 02:35 phagga wrote:I am cutting down to the part that is about me. Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:52 Mementoss wrote:Also I noticed something else that was a bit weird. Maybe just a coincidence. The connection between Phagga and Nova_Terra1. Only 2 people to have suspicion on Sbrubbles. Phagga and Nova_Terra. I've already shown Nova's so here is Phaggas post. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 18:33 phagga wrote:Where is FirmTofu? He posted a lurker list 5 hours into the game (which is VERY early for a lurkerlist) and has not posted since then. If we would hold him up to his own standard, he is lurking very hard. You can see his filter hereI read through all the filters, and besides FirmTofu the following people are rather suspicious to me: - Eleanthas (Only posted a one liner) - koritora (not posting anything of value) - sbrubbles (only two posts in rapid succession where he basically calls out lurkers and fluff, only to disappear again). IMO, if there is a DT out there, these four would be possible check targets. What do you guys think about it? Also, if none of them adds anyhting significant in the next 6 hours, my vote will go to one of these four. Soft deadline 8 hours before is ok with me. Also, as a heads up, I generally won't be around on deadline, as it is at 3 am in my timezone. By final vote will normally be casted around 5 to 3 hours before deadline. --> Also maybe trying to push a waste of DT check onto Sbrubbles? 2. Another agreeance on the DT check, again maybe trying to lure out a Blue or waste a check? + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 02:30 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 01:21 phagga wrote:
So, if there is a DT in this game, and he does not know who he should check, I would propose that he chose someone from this list:
- Eleanthas
- koritora
- cosine
What does everyone else think? I am in agreement with those three being good suspects for a dt to check. I want them (as well as everyone else) to come and post more. The trend seems to be posting some excuse for not posting and then not posting again. I have a couple other minor suspicions right now, but nothing worth noting, until i have a bit more to work with. 1.) Making DT check lists is a way to get town more active. It is even mentioned in BloodyC0bblers Post "TL Town Breakdown / Analysis". + Show Spoiler +Towns lately talk too many generalities, and not enough specifics. People will open day 1 with discussion of how their blues could or could not perform that game. While this isn’t a bad place to start, as specifics are never mentioned it lets the mafia easily blend in. Every player roughly knows what the players should be doing with x blue role.
However, if you instead bring in specifics:
Detective checklists
Medic lists
Make watch lists of players
These sort of topics put names down. As soon as a name hits a list discussion should ultimately start on “why is x there, why isn’t y?” “If I’m on a detective check list or watch list does that mean I’m suspected of being red?” etc…
It means people have to get personally involved and risk giving up their alignment. Does someone soft defend or hard defend someone being put on a watch list or the like is something to watch for.
The more discussion you can generate via lists like this the more likely reds will slip up. If everyone but player x is talking about these topics, player x could be a) red b) inactive.
Either or he’s not helping and voila day 1 lynch. This is exactly the reason why I made these lists: To give people something to discuss. This game is a ghost town, we are currently 6 people participating, while 3 people have not posted at all in the last 36 hours and another one is dodging us with defense and counter questions. We need more activity. That is the main reason why I made these lists. 2.) I am not fishing for blue roles or make them waste their checks. As I stated earlier, the blues are up to do whatever they want to. I also never asked any blue to share their findings, or breadcrumb anything into the thread. Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:52 Mementoss wrote:3. First to defend Nova_Terra + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 18:47 phagga wrote:
Seviro, while I like your analysis on a first glance, I would like to note that you start your case with some heavy WIFOM.
We have no idea what the motives of the mafia are for killing sbrubbles. We can only speculate. And if we speculate wrong, we might start hunting and lynching people for the wrong reasons, we will get WIFOM, it will create more uncertainty than facts. The only ones profiting from it will be the mafia.
There is no benefit in guessing what the mafia is up to. Also, it does not matter. Whatever the mafia wanted to achieve, we just need to make sure that we can lynch them, then we win.
However, I think your case is not only base on WIFOM, so I will go through it later when I have more time. --> Doesn't really go into the case, just dis regards it because it has some WIFOM 1. When really, there was a lot of WIFOM but there were some other good points too, that he didn't post his opinion on. Adds some fluff about trying to guess what the mafia is up to is useless. Well usually finding what the mafia are up to leads to them, and it all starts making sense. Or you find a mafia, then you find what they were up to and make a connection that way. 2So yes eventually mafia motives are relevant. Are you serious? I get the feeling you did this on purpose. 1 I wrote in this very post you are quoting that: - "while I like your analysis on a first glance[...]" - "I think your case is not only base on WIFOM, so I will go through it later when I have more time." How you can interprete this as "disregarding the post" is beyond me. 2 Finding a mafia may lead to the rest of mafia, agreed. But finding out why the mafia did a specific night kill is a waste of time. There are so many ways for mafia to make us believe one thing while they do something completely other that it is not worth speculating about why they killed a specific player or left another one alive. Also, clever mafia can mess with our heads by killing a townie that was tunneling another townie, giving town the impression that the tunneled townie was actually scum. This leads directly to a mislynch. So, no, speculating about the motives of night kills leads to WIFOM and mislynches. Avoid it. Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:52 Mementoss wrote:4. Leaves Nova_terra out of his analysis because of the vote switch. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 22:48 phagga wrote:So, the bandwagon on FirmTofu was rolling to easy. There was no opposition. As scum profits from mislynches, I am sure we will find at least 1 if not 2 scum on the voters of FirmTofu. Here's the final voting stand on FirmTofu again: FirmTofu (7): phagga, Eleanthas, Janaan, Gossemerr, Mementoss, Seviro, cosine, Janaan: He agrees on FirmTofu, and brings up Koritora as new suspect after the lynch with good reason. Does not look suspicious. Gossemerr: Trying to be active and helpful, lacking some content. Went a bit overboard with the "specific scenario" argument vs Nova_Tera IMO, but I think that's not an issue. Also brought up that noone is defending FirmTofu, although he again was not the first one to do so. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. Mementoss: Very active, posting analysis. Brought up Eleanthas, stated his position on several players. Does not look suspicious. Seviro: another rather active player, although content may be debatable. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. cosine: He speaks out several times vs a lurker lynch on Day1, but then jumps easily on the FirmTofu bandwagon to lynch a lurker. Besides defending himself, he did not add anything substantial. I don't like that. Eleanthas: His posting is still lacking, he actually only reiterated the wordings of others. His only longer post is this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:57 Eleanthas wrote:Ok. Sorry for not responding. Saw discussion towards me at school with my phone, but really hard to write anything with it so decided to wait untill I come home. Anyway have been busy atm. Will change now. 1So what Can i say about first post. It was really just a post to tell people I'm alive. In some forums, you get replaced if you don't speak on first half of day, so I guess I followed that rule there. Had really nothing to say. Just plain stupid first post from me. 2About Nova_Terra: He seems eager to accuse anybody scum if given even a small chance. I guess he is trying to presure players to talk to get discussion going on. Doesn't seem too scummy for me, but have to keep eye on him. 3So what I think about InfernOokami7: On March 12 2012 08:40 InfernOokami7 wrote:
I'm not 100% in favor of a no lynch on day 1 as long as there is a reasonable amount of suspicion for someone. I just didn't see the point in voting to lynch someone if the reason wasn't there because instead of just giving the mafia a free pass for the night, you're giving them a 2 for 1 deal instead. beside that post he has 4 post saying pretty much same. I guess he is trying to lurk by stating same thing in many posts. Would like to hear about him. 4And lastly about FirmTofu: Like many others pointed out FirmTofu posted 2 fast posts. Seems kinda suspicous to me. Telling to pick one of the lurkers and listing them and then vanishing. If we don't hear about him, my vote is gonna go for him. 5
##Vote FirmTofu 1 + 2 Apologizes for not posting earlier, then calls his own first post stupid, although the post itself was not that bad. The fact that he did not post more after this short oneliner was bad. 3 Seviro, Mementoss and Sbrubbles already pointed out the exact same thing. Actually, just take a look at Mementoss phrase: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:33 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with this post, it seems NovaTerra is eager to FoS despite how early in the game it was, which seems a little suspicious. But, it is most likely just a pressure play, to get the discussion rolling, and people talking. Eleanthas post is the same content with different wording. 4 Was brought up in a similar form by Mementoss. 5 Was brought up by pretty much everyone active in the thread at that time. So, he actually said nothing. The comments on each of his 3 "suspects" are really short and only repeat thoughts brought up by others. For me, he is one of the more suspect persons in the game. ##FoS: Eleanthas Even though the vote switch does not prove innocence or town so this seems a bit odd. Unless it was pre-planned. FirmTofu already had the majority, so Nova_Terra could switch. Phagga could then post an analysis post, to look town, while leaving out any analysis of his scum buddy Nova_Terra, without looking suspicious because of the vote switch. Again, the reason why I chose the ones that voted on FirmTofu is because it is almost guaranteed that there was some scum in there. So it is interesting to look at these specific player and how they acted so far, what their reasons for lynching FirmTofu were and how they generally behaved. As I wrote in another post this does not make any non-voter of FirmTofu AutoTown, but it means that I concentrate on one specific group of players for a moment and look at their behaviour.
1. The point of those quotes were to show the connection between you and Nova_Terra mainly. Reading that article, I can see how DT lists can be good for both town and mafia depending on how and when they are used. In this context, since there is a lot of lurking going on the DT list promotes activity, and right now any activity is good.
2. I was just being cautious because I don't want a noob blue to accidently slip and get picked off this early in the game.
3(1). My mistake, I mis read your post and missed the part where you said you would be back to re-iterate on the rest of the arguement.
3(2). Well that is opinion really, I think since we have 48 hours for the day it doesn't hurt to at least consider the thought of it. Though since it is WIFOM it can't really be used as the main source of evidence in any case. But your right in that it shouldn't be dwelled on and sparking discussion in other ways can lead to more solid analysis and a proper lynch.
4. "Again, the reason why I chose the ones that voted on FirmTofu is because it is almost guaranteed that there was some scum in there. So it is interesting to look at these specific player and how they acted so far, what their reasons for lynching FirmTofu were and how they generally behaved. As I wrote in another post this does not make any non-voter of FirmTofu AutoTown, but it means that I concentrate on one specific group of players for a moment and look at their behaviour."
--> Fair enough. That makes sense.
Overall I was just mentioning what it looking like in the filters between you and nova_terra. It could be 2 mafia accidently, 1 mafia hiding behind 1 town, or just 2 towns agreeing with eachother point of views. On that note, you're not in my top suspicious at the moment.
@Nova_Terra:
+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 20:32 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 14:13 Seviro wrote:GG sbrubbles, be sure that we'll avenge your death. At first I was like why kill him, he was not really active, did not really help the town the first day and I didn't see him being a threat for anyone. Now after looking at his filter, his death give me some pointers. First, only 2 post of him contain some sort of analysis/suspicion. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
On March 12 2012 23:29 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. You didn't accuse him? Short of actually voting for the fellow, threatening to vote for someone is as accusatory as it gets: + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 01:57 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:51 Seviro wrote:On March 11 2012 20:18 Nova_Terra wrote:
Please explain yourself. I dont like cosines play so far, his only post comes after someone accusing him of lurking. not only does he not bring anything new to the table, he confuses us and discredits others post (tofus) and calls it stupid.
Here I don't see how he is different than you about posting just after being accusiing of lurking since your first post was just after FirmTOfu called the current people in the game that hadn't post at this time On March 11 2012 17:36 Nova_Terra wrote:Hey, Sorry, I was asleep for the last 8 hours and just woke up I agree with always pushing a lynch as long as there is aome evidence that shows that the person is likely to be scum. for instance lurkers, bad defenders, etc. i also agree with a no lynch as long as there is overwhelming evidence that shows lynch candidates as being townies. But I guess you're right since he didn't post at all since then, where you have. I just think that FOSing someone this early in the game (8 hour ago was early I mean) after only a single post is a bit suspicious but I do agree that he is not clear of suspicion with his one post, not worth a FOS yet though Yeah, it was a funny coincedence that he posted that right before i woke up. i also pointed out the post before how the suspicion should also be on me. The thing is though, his post was extremely messed up and seemed very scummy. i definitely think it is worth an FOS seeing as nothing else was happening and i want him to clarify it up. its not like i voted for him yet or anything. On March 12 2012 01:59 Nova_Terra wrote:
EBWOP: and if cosine doesnt post and we dont get any other leads i feel that he would be a good lynch candidate.
Also, why so angry? Why do you insist (once again) on explaining the motives for your change of atitude? I pointed out that you were quick to turn defensive (or frustrated, as you say) when you were called out on it and it is my opinion that this is suspicious behavior, but that this doesn't matter for now because it is not worth it to push on a talkative (potential) mafia because there will be plenty of time for you to slip up later on if you really are scum. Now your answer is to threaten me, calling me suspicious? Anyway, question here: if the we agree to lynch a lurker, how are we gonna go about it? Bandwagon on the first non-replied accusation? At this point, besides Elean, we can consider a Inferno as a lurker. His post may not be contradictory like Elean (as in, he doesn't call himself worthless and suggests himself to be lynched), but he also hasn't contributed to the thread. Firmtofu looked like he was gonna participate but also hasn't said anything. In both of them, he state his suspicion on the early behaviour of Nova_Terra, maybe he was on something here. So I looked up Nova_Terra's filter and noticed so good thing. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 14:58 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
What is your point here? I didnt accuse him, i fos'ed him. two co pletely separate things, at least in my eyes. The pyshing on him was wanting him to respond, as was the point of my fos. I also wanted other people, like yourself, to come out of their lurking and post on this. I got frustrated when they started saying Nova_Terra is extremely eager to FoS because i was like... OH Really?!?! and then they went on to use my logic to say that he was suspicious. thats why i was mad. not exactly defensive, but frustrated at the town. Then, cosine posted exactly what i had been looking for, generating intelligent discussion. if by "willing to go onto the next topic" you mean "making new ideas that help the town and dont tunnel one person" i agree. please dont discredit my posting by calling it "inexperience/carelessness or something more" especially when this is your FIRST POST. later on i will come and explain why YOUR post seems suspicious to me. for now, im thinking eleanthas. In this one, he confront Scrubbles after he called him out on his early agressiveness, saying that it was to have some sort of conversatioin going out but also adding that he was frustrated by the town for not agreeing with him. Then he add to not "discredit his post by calling it inexperience/carelessness" where in fact Scrubbles was in fact only giving him some sort of excuse for what he posted earlier. As Scrubbles said, being defensive over such a small thing is suspicious to me. He then end his post on a semi-random call on eleanthas by saying that he is "thinking him". This way of wording it is like he want us to start pressuring eleanthas ourselves without stating it. That one-line call bugs me out a lot. He then tell why he thinks Scrubbles post was suspicous. + Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 17:09 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:45 Sbrubbles wrote:
Sup guys! My first post in this game, sorry it took so late!
It's hard to read someone based on the first half of the first day. On this whole Nova Terra/Cosine discussion, the only thing that stood out to me was Nova Terra's behavior, accusing and pushing on cosine (in a somewhat impatient manner), turning defensive when he's called out on it and then forgiving cosine after his post, seeming willing to go to the next topic. Being overly aggressive is not a usual day 1 mafia trait, but quickly turning defensive if called out some something is. Still, he is being active, so time will tell whether it was just a bit of town inexperience/carelessness or something more.
I just want to point out like posts like this are scummy. Not making any “accusations” or anything. 1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. 2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion 3. Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness 4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. 1. Throws the blame onto others, as if I was the scummy acting one, whereas this was his first post and the point of it was to throw suspicion onto me. Why would Scrubbles throw the blame on him when he was not even targetted at all. I mean it's not like Scrubbles was our main target and he wanted to put the spot on another one whereas it is exactly waht Nova_Terra is doing by turning his post against him. 2. Seemingly purposely not understanding my argument to provoke meaningless discussion. He is dodging the fact that Scrubbles want more explanation about his early FOS by implying that there is nothing more to add and that Scrubbles is just wanting to bring up old discussion whereas it was legitimate of him to want some more since he was not convince of his innocence yet. 3. Discrediting posts by calling it inexperience/carelessness See point 2, that is exactly what Nova do. 4. Not wanting to actually point a finger at me or to throw enough blame that anyone would be suspicious. What he did before on Eleanthas. Also, that was not what Scrubbles was doing he just happen to have come online after the veil of suspicion was lifted on Nova and he just wanted some clarification. As you can see, these are all things that one may notice when reading a guide as to how scum should play. So well at this point pretty self-explanatory. Finally I will quote myself. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 08:36 Seviro wrote:Oh god i'm late to the party today, Real life can be a whore Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:34 Nova_Terra wrote:
Okay, gossemerr, read the post above. I dont feel that a lynch on firmtofu will have any non-town results.
This is not trying to lynch you. I apologise for being so wishy washy and understand why people may not like this decision.
Unvote: FirmTofu
Vote: Gossemerr
I think you would be better voting for a no lynch because voting randomly for someone like this seems a bit scummy in my opinion but i guess you just didn't notice that you could just vote no lynch I think by voting on someone else since Tofu was most likely dead anyways, he wanted to not be associated with his death since he knew he was a townie (if he is a scum of course) and that kind of worked. + Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 22:48 phagga wrote:So, the bandwagon on FirmTofu was rolling to easy. There was no opposition. As scum profits from mislynches, I am sure we will find at least 1 if not 2 scum on the voters of FirmTofu. Here's the final voting stand on FirmTofu again: FirmTofu (7): phagga, Eleanthas, Janaan, Gossemerr, Mementoss, Seviro, cosine, Janaan: He agrees on FirmTofu, and brings up Koritora as new suspect after the lynch with good reason. Does not look suspicious. Gossemerr: Trying to be active and helpful, lacking some content. Went a bit overboard with the "specific scenario" argument vs Nova_Tera IMO, but I think that's not an issue. Also brought up that noone is defending FirmTofu, although he again was not the first one to do so. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. Mementoss: Very active, posting analysis. Brought up Eleanthas, stated his position on several players. Does not look suspicious. Seviro: another rather active player, although content may be debatable. I hope to get some analysis from him soon, currently a null read. cosine: He speaks out several times vs a lurker lynch on Day1, but then jumps easily on the FirmTofu bandwagon to lynch a lurker. Besides defending himself, he did not add anything substantial. I don't like that. Eleanthas: His posting is still lacking, he actually only reiterated the wordings of others. His only longer post is this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:57 Eleanthas wrote:Ok. Sorry for not responding. Saw discussion towards me at school with my phone, but really hard to write anything with it so decided to wait untill I come home. Anyway have been busy atm. Will change now. 1So what Can i say about first post. It was really just a post to tell people I'm alive. In some forums, you get replaced if you don't speak on first half of day, so I guess I followed that rule there. Had really nothing to say. Just plain stupid first post from me. 2About Nova_Terra: He seems eager to accuse anybody scum if given even a small chance. I guess he is trying to presure players to talk to get discussion going on. Doesn't seem too scummy for me, but have to keep eye on him. 3So what I think about InfernOokami7: On March 12 2012 08:40 InfernOokami7 wrote:
I'm not 100% in favor of a no lynch on day 1 as long as there is a reasonable amount of suspicion for someone. I just didn't see the point in voting to lynch someone if the reason wasn't there because instead of just giving the mafia a free pass for the night, you're giving them a 2 for 1 deal instead. beside that post he has 4 post saying pretty much same. I guess he is trying to lurk by stating same thing in many posts. Would like to hear about him. 4And lastly about FirmTofu: Like many others pointed out FirmTofu posted 2 fast posts. Seems kinda suspicous to me. Telling to pick one of the lurkers and listing them and then vanishing. If we don't hear about him, my vote is gonna go for him. 5
##Vote FirmTofu 1 + 2 Apologizes for not posting earlier, then calls his own first post stupid, although the post itself was not that bad. The fact that he did not post more after this short oneliner was bad. 3 Seviro, Mementoss and Sbrubbles already pointed out the exact same thing. Actually, just take a look at Mementoss phrase: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:33 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with this post, it seems NovaTerra is eager to FoS despite how early in the game it was, which seems a little suspicious. But, it is most likely just a pressure play, to get the discussion rolling, and people talking. Eleanthas post is the same content with different wording. 4 Was brought up in a similar form by Mementoss. 5 Was brought up by pretty much everyone active in the thread at that time. So, he actually said nothing. The comments on each of his 3 "suspects" are really short and only repeat thoughts brought up by others. For me, he is one of the more suspect persons in the game. ##FoS: Eleanthas in his post Phagga write a global analysis of everyone that vote for the lynch without touching to those who didn't. If I'm correct, that was quite a nice play from Nova. So Nova_Terra I can't wait for your answers. That said, I'm going to bed ##Big FOS:Nova_Terra I think you have been misunderstanding many of the points I’ve been making. Show nested quote + In this one, he confront Scrubbles after he called him out on his early agressiveness, saying that it was to have some sort of conversatioin going out but also adding that he was frustrated by the town for not agreeing with him. Yes, that is accurate except for the part about the town being frustrated by the town not agreeing with me. I was frustrated that people found me suspicious for the ways that I found Cosine suspicions, but then immediately used my same logic to find him suspicious. I found it hypocritical. It is true that I was mad that the town didn’t think like me, yes. Show nested quote + He then end his post on a semi-random call on eleanthas by saying that he is "thinking him". This way of wording it is like he want us to start pressuring eleanthas ourselves without stating it. That one-line call bugs me out a lot. Meh, I didn’t consider it semi random as he made a suspicious first post as well and appeared to be lurking. See last post on the “thinking him” thing, I think you just interpreted “thinking him” wrong as I should have clarified it more. Show nested quote + Why would Scrubbles throw the blame on him when he was not even targetted at all. I mean it's not like Scrubbles was our main target and he wanted to put the spot on another one whereas it is exactly waht Nova_Terra is doing by turning his post against him. Sorry, maybe shouldn’t have used the word ‘The’ in ‘The Blame’. He was putting blame on me, not tossing it from him to me. Show nested quote + He is dodging the fact that Scrubbles want more explanation about his early FOS by implying that there is nothing more to add and that Scrubbles is just wanting to bring up old discussion whereas it was legitimate of him to want some more since he was not convince of his innocence yet. Uhhh, sorry? He wanted MORE explanation about my early FOS? I thought he was accusing me for repeatedly defending myself for it. I think that I explained my early FOS well enough. Please clarify. I do not understand what you mean. Show nested quote + What he did before on Eleanthas. Also, that was not what Scrubbles was doing he just happen to have come online after the veil of suspicion was lifted on Nova and he just wanted some clarification. I still maintain that the thing with Eleanthas as a misunderstanding where you considered my ‘Im thinking’ to not being to point a finger, Whereas I meant that that would probably be my vote if nothing happened to clarify. I was not asking for anyone else to point a finger at him, etc. I find that my clarification of my FOS from beforehand was enough, and therefore I feel that he had an obligation to read the thread through fully, especially if he had just arrived. And he did ignore a few of my posts, as I directly talked to him and he didn’t respond. Show nested quote + I think by voting on someone else since Tofu was most likely dead anyways, he wanted to not be associated with his death since he knew he was a townie (if he is a scum of course)
and that kind of worked. Well I think/thought that my logic on FirmTofu was accurate, and therefore didn’t want to vote for someone that I was relatively sure was town, especially with the lynch going so easily. I was hoping that enough people would agree with my logic that they would stop their votes, but it was too close to the lynch deadline. Show nested quote + in his post Phagga write a global analysis of everyone that vote for the lynch without touching to those who didn't. If I'm correct, that was quite a nice play from Nova. You mean my “play” of not voting for the townie, correct? If so, I agree that that was a nice play, as the town’s general goal is to not lynch townies. Of course, Phagga only said that he was sure we could find 1-2 scum in that list, therefore leaving 1-2 out as well, so I consider that as touching on us as well. I find it sad that tofu died, I really thought that my reasoning was enough for people to cancel votes, but it was probably a bit WIFOMy. Anything else? Many of the points you made are based on WIFOM, and therefore I apologize if I was not able to respond to those in a way that cleared it up, as I have trouble defending against WIFOM cases.
Your defense hits every point. Its a decent explanation. Just the fact you showed up to defend without OMGUS, makes you less defensive. You seemed scummy to me by the look of your early filter because of the tone it set. It sounded like an aggressive, erratic, defensive scared type tone. With what seemed like OMGUS in early defense. However, your posts as of late are a lot more calm and logic driven. Which is good. Being emotional with your defense just makes you look unstable and suspicious.
However, I still find the vote change suspicious. There is a way to do it so its not suspicious and it's not the way you did it. You switched your vote at a time where it was really unlikely with current activity and different time zones that it would ever change the result. Changing your vote with the intention of not changing the result is suspicious cause it just looks like a way to cover your ass later if they flip town.
The way I think you shoulda went about this, since it was obvious that you were weary of the direction the vote was taking woulda been to defend the popular suspect, or convince people of another suspect by pushing another case analysis. For people to have time to react to this you need to leave ample time to switch especially when way over the majority is voting one way. If the vote is close or split and a couple votes can change the result, then of course a later switch with explanation can be effective.
I still have my suspicions about you, but way less than before. Right now I think you are active and sparking discussion which is good for town regardless. There are better cases to go after. Such as "the lurkers":
@Korita:
+ Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 14:06 Janaan wrote:GG FirmTofu I think we need to use this night phase to get some cases rolling. We don't have much to go on as far as cases go from Day 1, so we've got our work cut out for us. One thing I noticed from the votes that I found very interesting was Koritora's No Lynch vote. Here's one of his early posts: Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:22 koritora wrote:
However, to lynch a lurker is not a bad thing. It's not helping anyone in the town. As for people against lynching on the Day 1, that's where my suspicion lies. Then he turns around and: Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 09:37 koritora wrote:
Well besides the fact FirmTofu has only made talk about lynching a lurker, there isn't really much else to go on. Same case can be made for InfernoOkami7. But since either hasn't spoken up lately, I can only assume they are lurking and that puts my vote up in the air for these two unless they come and contribute something meaningful. But as of the moment, I can't decide between the two and therefore going with a no lynch.
##Vote: No Lynch First he says that he's suspicious of anyone who is against lynching on day 1. Then he's all of a sudden against lynching on day 1? This seems like a huge contradiction to me. Is it possible that he's trying to take away suspicion since he didn't vote for the mislynch? I'm not sure, but it's definitely possible. I think he's definitely worth a closer look.
The case by Janaan was mentioned a long long time ago. Korita so far has decided to just ignore this Korita has been heavy lurking for a long time. Waiting for other discussion to bury the Korita case or for people to just plain forget? Or just an inactive townie. He seems scummy to me.
@Infern0: The ultimate lurker in this game so far to me. Longest without a post currently. Drops in posts 4-5 posts that are either edits or just fluff/saying the same thing. Gives a quick explanation for his vote than peaces out for the whole night. Hard to really make a case for him other than he is the biggest lurker. If you want to lynch a lurker to keep an active town or cases are not coming together, I would say he is the number 1 lurker lynch.
@Cosine: Another lurker, but he actually proved that he can come back and respond with somewhat of an opinionated post to defend himself. This is the only place he gets a + in my books. Hasn't done much for the town otherwise, and the response being half decent and logical is the only reason he's less suspicious than the other two. Basically I agree with Eleanthas view on him, kinda confused to his motives, but at least he responds... sometimes.
Top scum thoughts:
1. Kori
2. Infern0
3. Cosine
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On March 15 2012 03:26 Janaan wrote:Seviro actually looks a bit scummy to me, not enough to come out with any sort of case on him, but I'm keeping close watch on him. Bits like Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 14:57 Seviro wrote:
I guess we'll have to wait for the mafia kill to get some more information depending on who they kill. after Day 1 ended, implying that we should simply wait until after Night 1 is over before doing anything, wasting 24 hours, doesn't look good to me. Then his accusation of Nova_Terra was full of WIFOM argument, and possibly confirmation bias.
Indeed that look quite suspicious but to be fair I thought that the myslynch was not very informative since there was a lot of bandwagoning and FirmTofu had post only 2 posts so that was hard to start a conversation based on his death in my opinion, whereas the night kill was most likely to be one that give us some insight.
As for the WIFOM, I didn't knoe it was a bad tihng to do (first game ever), I looked up what it meant and I agree that most of what I said was based on that, I just thought that if we try to think like a scum we could get them, I guess I was wrong.
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@Mementoss
From the way i had seen it, there was ample time left for people to switch their votes after i made mine. as most players in this game are in North America, i believe, it made sense to me that they would see my post at a time when most of them would be online, around 6pm ESTish. I attempted to post the best defense of him that i could, which was hard due to his inactivity. The reason why i did not come up with another case or present any defense for him earlier was that i had been hoping that he would come and post a defense of himself when he learned he was under fire.
I really thought that it might influence the result, and my thinking was, if he did get lynched, at least i didnt vote for a townie.
About the lurkers, you know someone has really been allowed to lurk when you cant even remember a single opinion that they had, and to me that person i remember nothing about is inferno. there is one or two other players that i dont get good vibes from, but i dont really have any non-WIFOM points so i shall have to wait with that until more posts are made. Anyway, If it does come down to those three you said, i would prefer an Inferno lynch, but a Kori lynch is a-ok with me too.
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EPT
