EPTHuge respect to EG, and Alexander Garfield for how this was handled.
Orb Dismissed from Evil Geniuses Broadcasts - Page 27
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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038 Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
Huge respect to EG, and Alexander Garfield for how this was handled. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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Klogbert
United States139 Posts
If I was a streamer/pro I would be very wary of releasing my replays and streaming from now on, especially if they don't need the money (which the ones we all want to watch don't) We just really need to lower the pitchforks and let people off the hook once in a while. | ||
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Bobbias
Canada1373 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:22 Noobity wrote: Look between the lines, dudes. Orb wasn't fired because of his words, Orb was fired because his words set off a shitstorm that involved the partners. No doubt in my mind that if the entirety of the community started writing the sponsors of every team out there saying they'll no longer buy any of the sponsor's shit because one of the players on a team they sponsored showed bad sportsmanship, that would cause that team to release that player, or risk losing the sponsor. I have no doubt in my mind that Mr. Garfield means every word he says, and I thank him for it. But I highly doubt anything would have come of it if the community didn't bitch. Is the community wrong for bitching? Maybe, maybe not. Depending on your view of the words used this may or may not be against your personal moral code. Maybe I'm wrong and there would have been ramifications if the community had bitched to the EG brass, but we didn't, we bitched to sponsors, which is a whole new shitstorm entirely. I'm far more disgusted by how the community decided to handle this situation than the situation itself. I'm glad you're angry, I love that you're angry, I despise when people use that kind of language in hateful ways (and no, I've never called anyone in a ladder game a faggot or nigger or any form of those no matter how angry I got, and I lose a higher percentage of games than any pro). But think about what the hell you could be doing before doing it. GJ, EG. And good luck, Orb. Nothing against you personally, but I hope you can bounce back and keep your temper in check in the future. Yes, the shitstorm is why he was released. If not for that, nobody outside of the few people who originally witnessed Orb's outbursts would have known about it, and fewer people would likely have cared. I'm sad to see Orb dropped for things he said and did on his own time in a purely non-professional environment, but the fact of the matter is that if your famous enough to have people watch you, you need to be careful in case something you do in front of those people comes back and bites you in the ass. I'm a fan of both EG and Orb and I'm deeply saddened that this had to happen. I was looking forward to seeing Orb cast the masters cup, and figured this was a great opportunity for his career, and it's certainly disappointing to see something cut short like this. I don't blame EG for what was done because when something like this happens, there's no other option. I don't really blame Orb either, because this is certainly one of the hardest and most frustrating games out there. I personally destroyed a hard drive thanks to SC2, so I can understand why he said what he said. I think what someone should have done was contact Orb directly and ask him to refrain from using the term in the future, under penalty of them taking things public. It would have given Orb a chance to redeem himself before things blew up into a massive shitstorm and forced this situation, and if Orb repeated the offense, which is relatively easy to do without carefully self censoring, then he would know what he was in for, rather than have something blow up in his face with essentially no warning. | ||
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pugowar
United States142 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:34 Gamegene wrote: "@ottersareneat do you scold Idra then for using "faggot" during his streams and games? Not sure why he gets special treatment and Orb doesnt" "@beesinyoface yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know." i doubt idra gives whiny excuses. he admits he is foul mouthed. Again - so as long as you "man up" as your initial reaction you can say anything you want to? and it shouldn't matter i f it happened in the past or not - it didnt matter for Orb it shouldn't matter for Idra. This is a double standard. | ||
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AtlasJQ
Canada138 Posts
Despite all the flack EG takes their organization is one of the best-run in the scene and their successes are good for the whole SC community. I hope Orb can learn from his mistake. It doesn't need to be a fatal one but it should spark some self-reflection on his part. A bad break but perhaps what was needed for him to mature and advance to be something great. | ||
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ExoTau
Canada67 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:30 Jonas  wrote:How is Orb's rage any different from Idra's Rage? Because he added the word "nigger" to his list of profanities? Give me a break Idra's rage is just homophobic and racist towards less controversial targets. Same difference if you ask me. Orb's firing seems like a slippery slope. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote: How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not. As a French person, the two word seem really comparable. And by that I think public figure using the word faggot should see their carrier end. I don't think its specifically american though, just that people do not have the same sensibility toward those words. | ||
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Utinni
Canada1196 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:34 Gamegene wrote: "@ottersareneat do you scold Idra then for using "faggot" during his streams and games? Not sure why he gets special treatment and Orb doesnt" "@beesinyoface yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know." i doubt idra gives whiny excuses. he admits he is foul mouthed. yes alex does, read the thread and find his twitter post ( I don't feel like finding it for you since you obviously didn't read the thread). He already acknowledged Idra's rage has been a problem and had been extinguished to the point where he has asked if anyone see Idra use these terms to contact him. So if he you have you should show your evidence and contact Alex. Otherwise stop assuming he still does. | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
Of course it's a PR move. If you didn't want PR, maybe you should have been following Incredible Miracle or the KSL or other such drama-free organizations. Though I find it funny that this happened after the whole fighting game Cross Assault drama. It's a small world, huh. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:24 wats0n wrote: Specific words don't hold some magical power. It's the overtly sensitive reverence and mystification of that word by people like Alex Garfield that gives it "power." In your zeal to define and label and create protocol the side effect is you are the one that makes that word powerful. I much more subscribe to the emotionally intelligent as well as clasically intelligent view of somebody like Destiny who believes context and emotion conveyed through language is important. The words themselves are only a means, a set of symbols to convey the ideas in the head of one person. I think you have to be intentionally obtuse and morally dishonest to pretend that Orb wasn't using that word as it stands in the common gamer vernacular and try to link the word to its classic existence in the American English vernacular as a racial prejorative. Orb is not a racist for using that word and specific words only have the power we give them. In Buddhism, they view the mind as a virtual garden and thoughts and ideas start as seeds. When you think certain thoughts you are growing those ideas as a seed grows into a plant. By giving such emphasis and deference to thoughts which you knowingly recognize as not descending from card-carrying racists and neo nazis, you extend the reach or racial prejudice and allow it to persist and endure despite our social evolution. I would implore you Mr. Garfield to reevaluate your approach to the issue of racism because I believe it's fundamentally the wrong philosophy that we as a society need to achieve the ultimate ideal: total eradication of racism. Focusing on the context and the message that people are communicating and not the words themselves is the proper ideology. You don't understand. We consciously bury the word as a social affirmation that it is not acceptable in the social discourse, and that therefore its referent is not acceptable in the social space. The "context and emotion" conveyed through some utterance (parole) in language (langage) always stands in a tripartite relationship with the recipient and the particular semiotic code which mediates (langue). Because the message is always conveyed in the medium, the medium UNAVOIDABLY shapes the message - demystification is the process of seeing through the medium strategically in order to better access the original message. What you are advocating is one of two possible solutions to the problem of such profanity in culture. Your position is radical and universal demystification - basically asking that everybody empty the signifier of its old content and apply it whole to a new signified. Under radical demystification, however, the old signified which has been freed will simply go to a new signifier, and you have the problem all over again. The other, better, solution, is to bury the signifier and make it taboo. This does not create the problem of the loose signified, and performs the social function mentioned above. I doubt the Dalai Lama would endorse your conclusions from "Buddhism." | ||
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Bubble-T
Australia105 Posts
Once you're done with racism and homophobia can we address misogyny too? We're a damn sight better than the FG community but still not all we could be. Cheers | ||
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CopperKat
United States9 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:33 zeehar wrote: i wouldn't mind at all given that this person calls someone a nigger for cannon rushing him. you can't dismiss heat-of-the-moment stuff as not part of who you are, because it is indeed a part. do we let off people who beat their wives and abuse their children because they "momentarily forgot themselves"? more often than not that violence is a part of who they are. this is not about overbearing PCness, this is about basic human dignity. sure, you no-namers who nobody in the community really cares about can verbally abuse people on ladder with no consequences because nobody cares what the fuck you do on ladder. but guys like orb, who are contracted to an organization for a specific purpose, need to have certain standards of behaviour at all times when they are in the presence of the community. ladder counts as he was using his proper account. it's simply not acceptable. sure, nobody will care if you call people niggers with your friends in your own time in your silly little gatherings. it doesn't mean people won't care if a public figure does it so openly like orb did. I get really mad, and never once has "dumb nigger" sprung to mind. People are defending it as an act of rage, but it's honestly WORSE that he said it out of rage. It takes a particular disposition towards the word and it's meaning for it to be your go to vocabulary to, as Orb said, "say the most offensive thing as I possibly can to someone". tl;dr Saying it out of rage is worse in my eyes than other casual uses. | ||
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Schmoooopy
United States448 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:23 ZeromuS wrote: To be fair the question of truth is debatable. He may have been completely truthful with regards to the initial post on reddit and the game that occured on March 7th. However I feel that people are mistaking his statement with regards to that one game (his shared account incident) to be the same statement with regards to games in the past. He was not asked about the games in the past and people assume that he was lying about the past games as well. This was not the case at the very least publicly. So his initial statement could have been made entirely truthfully. Then individuals decided to search through months of past vods in an attempt to "prove" Orb is a "racist" followed by people sending messages to the EG sponsors putting pressure on Alex and EG to make a particular decision. The entire question of his use of the word is one thing but this kind of reaction being accepted solely on the predicate of "orb lied to his employer" is in my opinion suspect. That is why this decision seems unfortunate to me. In addition to this, it emboldens the kind of activities I really dislike about the community and Reddit. This was more than condemning Orb for words used it was seeking vindication for his actions. The malicious attempts to hunt down any proof of past use of the N word proves that it was more than saying "this is wrong" and instead saying "we want your career ended". Any number of responses from EG could have been done. Orb not allowed to take part in this season of MCSL for one but now the moment Orb is casting anything people will probably blacklist him entirely which is the most unfortunate thing. Orb casts in 6 months, reddit finds out, people email sponsors for the event, orb has a hard time going anywhere. Soon there will be pressure to unfeature orb the moment he streams on TL again I am sure. I agree with this post. Personally, I think that what Orb said was wrong and I think that the biggest issue here is that he lied. I don't condone of that. But after just reading the initial thread on this issue and some reddit posts, I can definitely agree that sentiment turned from "this is wrong" to "we want your career ended." That was my first impression. | ||
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e qui nox
United States3 Posts
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matiK23
United States963 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:33 oBlade wrote: I don't understand your point. Are you surprised that the real world is more conservative than the free internet, or do you think nobody ever says "nigger" outside of the internet - in which case we'd have a hard time explaining why the word exists if nobody uses it. What part don't you understand? The poster said "nigger isn't what it used to meant" which implies that it could be freely used in everyday conversation. So I'm telling him to start using it. Lead by example, if that is how he truly feels. And why would I be surprised that the real world is more conservative, I don't understand what YOUR point is. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:38 ExoTau wrote: Idra's rage is just homophobic and racist towards less controversial targets. Same difference if you ask me. Orb's firing seems like a slippery slope. Or the beginning of a positive chance in the scene. Maybe people will actually stop using disrespectful language and grow up. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:36 motbob wrote: How are the people in this thread comparing Idra's profanity to Orb's? How are the two situations even remotely the same? The word "nigger" is an automatic career-ender for a public figure in almost all situations of use. The word "faggot" is not. Why are you implying faggot is not as bad as nigger, i agree that idra's situation is different to orbs i havent heard him say faggot or type faggot in a while but it is just as hurtfull word as nigger when directed at certain people. | ||
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Oerbaa
Scotland184 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:21 Zzoram wrote: No, this was the SC2 community taking a step towards growing up. Destiny is the worst possible thing for this community right now. People like him are hurting the growth of SC2 more than we know. People like Destiny are hurting this community? really..?, the community is hurting this community, people have it in there heads that this community is amazingly good compared to other games, if that was the case then people wouldn't bring up shit other people have said in the past and made a big fuss out of a word that can only be offensive if you take it offensive, hell i don't like orb that much, from what ive seen on his stream he seems like a twat.. but still nobody deserves to be fired for something they done in the past unless its something completely serious ie involved in criminal activity, if this community was so glorious then im pretty sure this wouldn't have happened in the first place, people need to realise the fact that our community isn't great, its like any other competitive game it has its idiots and trolls and then the handful of nice people who actually make game communities good, ive seen so many posts on reddit/tl about how bad games like LoL's communities are yet the reality is ours is just as bad. Orb deserved what he got for lying and not owning up to saying the word "nigger" when asked by EG, he made a false excuse and lied directly to his bosses, and now he's done at EG, but for him to get slandered this much by people for saying "nigger" is completely idiotic, im pretty sure a majority of the people making a fuss about this have said words like faggot nigger and other racial/homophobic words in there life, if not ill actually be surprised, but like i said some people like the guy above me need to wake up and take a good look at this community, this entire thing is ridiculous.. someone has just lost there job and perhaps there dream due to one person being offended by a word that's only offensive if you take offend to it, reddit overreacted and went on some idiotic racial vendetta to get Orb fired, fair enough.. ive said it multiple times in case people quote me for defending Orb and what not, he got what he deserved for lying to his employers but the community needs to take a good look at itself, ive played multiple online games for years at a time and Sc2's is far from perfect. | ||
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Champloo
Germany1850 Posts
This only makes me lose respect for them, if they don't also kick Idra, who used the word "faggot" several times in the past. | ||
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