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On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts?
.. not this again.
About Supply block:
Zerg: save money and larvas, wait for 30sec to clear supply and make boat load of stuffs. => lost 30sec and units build time, but have a boat load of units
Protoss: build a pylon: wait for 30 sec to clear supply, then wait 5 second to warp in a load of units. => lost 35 sec and have load of units
Terran
- No supply drop: build a supply depot, wait for 30sec to clear supply, build units => lost 30sec and unit build time (which always longer than 30sec)but only make what your production capacity can afford.
- Supply drop: well, it does it job.
About MULE:
Protoss and Zerg always have faster worker production than Terran, it's easy for them to get 3,4 workers ahead of the Terran. Moreover, because Terran always has to have 1,2 workers dedicated to build stuffs, when you see in harvester tab, Terran has 30 workers, that means he only has 28 workers. 1 MULE is only equal to 4 SCVs, which bring the Terran's economy on par with other race. If there's no MULES, Terran will never ever win anything.
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On December 16 2011 05:53 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:50 RoboBob wrote:
Looking at the sc2 ranks statistics I think its interesting that T is holding even with P in Korea, but is the least played race everywhere else.
I guess that adds some credence to the argument that Terran is the most difficult to master, but also has the highest skillcap. I think most people agree with this to some extent or another, but I don't think it's worth debating about. Just like BW, blizzard will walk a line between difficulty and balance. Protoss were supposedly the easiest race in BW (never played it myself sadly) but also the least represented in the OSL/MSL as far as I'm aware. The same happens with SC2, it's a design flaw that's really, really hard to fix and it doesn't look like blizzard will try to fix it for HotS. Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:53 xrapture wrote:
The fact is a foreign Terran hasn't won a major live event in over a year-- Jinro at DC I believe. How many foreign Zergs and Tosses have we had win? I'm sure people will dismiss this as foreign Terran's being "bad" and worse than the other races, but when the same thing was suggested about Toss players in korea they all flipped out.
I think the facts that Terran is the least played race in masters and diamond, foreign Terran's have been struggling for a long time, and that Korean Terran's always perform wall to the brink of domination, that Terran has the highest skillcap, but without korean mechanics Terran is a very unforgiving race to play. Looking through the TLPD, Major won the LA bnet invitational and before that Thorzain with the TSL3. Since Thorzain's win, there have been 14 other foreigner wins at premier events, though for example Huk and stephano dominate quite a bit of that. T doesn't have a comparable 'foreign hero' except Thorzain maybe.
Last time I checked TSL3 wasn't a live event was it? Maybe you should have read my post. Also, do you really consider the LA bnet invitational a major event? There were 7 people there and Major and Killer were the only one's with a winrate over 50% on tlpd.
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On December 16 2011 06:02 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:48 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:40 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:37 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:[quote] http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water. youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it. Again, where did I contradict myself by throwing out 'those exact statements'. I haven't used anecdotal evidence, I haven't made sweeping generalizations that you can't argue with. I stated my opinion, and if I would state something like 'Terrans are played more because of boxer', I don't know, maybe I'd actually link to some kind of source that backs up my claim. You realize there probably is no way to provide hard evidence of that. It's not like every Korean who bought SC1 filled out a survey detailing why they chose a certain race. We understand that you want some source, but this source may not even exist. BoxeR is the number one name associated with Starcraft and it is reasonable to believe that he had a lot of influence on the nature of the Korean scene. Exactly, that's what I mean by unarguable points. You can't prove or disprove it, only agree or disagree. And presenting something like that as a fact when you can't know for sure how great the effect is is really, really bad for a discussion. THAT'S what I'm raging about. This thread has been 60 pages of people throwing 'facts' (FROM BOTH SIDES) and screaming at eachother. A lot of these discussions often come down to opinions yes, but TL can do better than this. I agree with you on that, I don't even know why BoxeR is relevant to this thread. The main problem I see is that us Terrans are largely trying to claim that we have to put in more effort to stay even with P and to a lesser extent Z. However, there is no accepted definition of effort. APM does not translate directly to effort or skill and overall it is just really hard to quantify. I can't continue in this thread though, I feel like everyone has been beating a dead horse for the past 40 pages and half the responses don't even correspond to the OP (he specifically said he wasn't considering GSL players, this was a discussion about ladder players). We are just trying to articulate why Terran may be dwindling as a race, and as there is no single definitive answer, the responses are going to be largely personal anecdotes on why we as Terran players have personally shied away from the ladder. You see, there is no piece of evidence or fact that we can point to explain this, as everyone has a unique personal reason. But anyways, no hard feelings, I just get frustrated talking about TvP >< No hard feelings <3 as for my opinion, I think T is a lot more forgiving at lower levels but really hard compared to Protoss/Zerg at a diamond/master level, but that evens out a bit more at the pro level. Diamond/Masters is where you start getting into the mid/lategame on equal footing - and for T, your lategame army is MUCH more fragile I think.
I am going to come out and say it (as a toss player).
Terran has the shittiest late game army of the three races.
They have some of the best tier 1 - 2.5 in the game giving them early and midgame racial advantages.
Bio needs nerfed, mech needs buffed....
How specifically? I have no fucking clue or I would have Dustin Browder's job....
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On December 16 2011 05:48 Serelitz wrote:
Exactly, that's what I mean by unarguable points. You can't prove or disprove it, only agree or disagree. And presenting something like that as a fact when you can't know for sure how great the effect is is really, really bad for a discussion.
THAT'S what I'm raging about. This thread has been 60 pages of people throwing 'facts' (FROM BOTH SIDES) and screaming at eachother. A lot of these discussions often come down to opinions yes, but TL can do better than this.
Exactly what I mean by your not being able to prove the sun rises every day. Maybe you should stop RAGING and go to the store, buy a video camera, and record the sun rise every single day for the rest of eternity instead of sitting inside all day RAGING that more people regard Protoss as an easier to play race than Terran.
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On December 16 2011 06:06 SystemAddict wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:48 Serelitz wrote:
Exactly, that's what I mean by unarguable points. You can't prove or disprove it, only agree or disagree. And presenting something like that as a fact when you can't know for sure how great the effect is is really, really bad for a discussion.
THAT'S what I'm raging about. This thread has been 60 pages of people throwing 'facts' (FROM BOTH SIDES) and screaming at eachother. A lot of these discussions often come down to opinions yes, but TL can do better than this. Exactly what I mean by your not being able to prove the sun rises every day. Maybe you should stop RAGING and go to the store, buy a video camera, and record the sun rise every single day for the rest of eternity instead of sitting inside all day RAGING that more people regard Protoss as an easier to play race than Terran.
Are you serious? For the 5th time, I agree that Protoss is easier on the ladder levels.
I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post.
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So it's agreed then.
Overall, Terran is a harder race to play than Protoss.
Thats probably why terrans are quitting or switching.
User was warned for this post
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On December 16 2011 06:03 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts? .. not this again. About Supply block: Zerg: save money and larvas, wait for 30sec to clear supply and make boat load of stuffs. => lost 30sec and units build time, but have a boat load of units Protoss: build a pylon: wait for 30 sec to clear supply, then wait 5 second to warp in a load of units. => lost 35 sec and have load of units Terran - No supply drop: build a supply depot, wait for 30sec to clear supply, build units => lost 30sec and unit build time (which always longer than 30sec)but only make what your production capacity can afford. - Supply drop: well, it does it job. About MULE: Protoss and Zerg always have faster worker production than Terran, it's easy for them to get 3,4 workers ahead of the Terran. Moreover, because Terran always has to have 1,2 workers dedicated to build stuffs, when you see in harvester tab, Terran has 30 workers, that means he only has 28 workers. 1 MULE is only equal to 4 SCVs, which bring the Terran's economy on par with other race. If there's no MULES, Terran will never ever win anything.
The MULE is just a bad design. Sure without it Terran would be screwed, but with the MULE Terran can lose scvs with very little impact. Please don't use the example of scvs building stuff, because it has very little impact and not worth debating over...
And "only 4 scvs".. please don't understate that. Basically it means when you are on equal bases with Terran you are at a disadvantage.. there is such a thing called efficiency as well. At 3 bases Terran has 12 extra workers with no disadvantage if you forget to do it instantly, unlike Zerg for example.
I wish they would get rid of the supply drop. Such a stupid ability
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On December 16 2011 06:04 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:53 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:50 RoboBob wrote:
Looking at the sc2 ranks statistics I think its interesting that T is holding even with P in Korea, but is the least played race everywhere else.
I guess that adds some credence to the argument that Terran is the most difficult to master, but also has the highest skillcap. I think most people agree with this to some extent or another, but I don't think it's worth debating about. Just like BW, blizzard will walk a line between difficulty and balance. Protoss were supposedly the easiest race in BW (never played it myself sadly) but also the least represented in the OSL/MSL as far as I'm aware. The same happens with SC2, it's a design flaw that's really, really hard to fix and it doesn't look like blizzard will try to fix it for HotS. On December 16 2011 05:53 xrapture wrote:
The fact is a foreign Terran hasn't won a major live event in over a year-- Jinro at DC I believe. How many foreign Zergs and Tosses have we had win? I'm sure people will dismiss this as foreign Terran's being "bad" and worse than the other races, but when the same thing was suggested about Toss players in korea they all flipped out.
I think the facts that Terran is the least played race in masters and diamond, foreign Terran's have been struggling for a long time, and that Korean Terran's always perform wall to the brink of domination, that Terran has the highest skillcap, but without korean mechanics Terran is a very unforgiving race to play. Looking through the TLPD, Major won the LA bnet invitational and before that Thorzain with the TSL3. Since Thorzain's win, there have been 14 other foreigner wins at premier events, though for example Huk and stephano dominate quite a bit of that. T doesn't have a comparable 'foreign hero' except Thorzain maybe. Last time I checked TSL3 wasn't a live event was it? Maybe you should have read my post. Also, do you really consider the LA bnet invitational a major event? There were 7 people there and Major and Killer were the only one's with a winrate over 50% on tlpd.
The finals were live, and I just checked through ALL 'premier events' on the TLPD and checked for foreign winners.
If we're seperating on quality too, since Thorzain's TSL win (since it makes a nice timeframe) there have been:
-ESWC
-MLG Orlando
-IEM Guangzhou
-IPL 3
-MLG Global Invitational (just as much live as TSL3, only the finals)
-SEA invitational (same as LA invitational)
-Taiwanese invitational (same as LA invitational)
-Chinese invitational (same again, but debatable)
-LA Invitational (doesnt count according to you)
-EU Invitational (debatable quality again).
-Assembly Summer
-IPL 2 (online)
-Dreamhack Summer
-MLG Dallas (debatable competition).
-TSL3
Out of these 15 results, only 5-8 meet your standards, and they were won mostly by Idra, Stephano, Naniwa and Huk.
That too, is too small a sample size to base anything meaningful on. While I agree foreign T isn't doing well with tournament winnings, foreign terrans are also simply not as good as the top protoss/zergs like Idra, Stephano, Naniwa, and Huk. Add the subtop which doesnt feature a lot of terrans either (can only really think of Major, Thorzain and Kas) and that's just not enough to base anything on.
On December 16 2011 06:10 SystemAddict wrote:
So it's agreed then.
Overall, Terran is a harder race to play than Protoss.
Thats probably why terrans are quitting or switching.
I really don't agree with the whole 'terrans are quitting or switching' because suddenly it's become harder. At best it's correlation, not causation. Certainly not suddenly - T didn't SUDDENLY become a harder race.
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On December 16 2011 06:03 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts? .. not this again. About Supply block: Zerg: save money and larvas, wait for 30sec to clear supply and make boat load of stuffs. => lost 30sec and units build time, but have a boat load of units Protoss: build a pylon: wait for 30 sec to clear supply, then wait 5 second to warp in a load of units. => lost 35 sec and have load of units Terran - No supply drop: build a supply depot, wait for 30sec to clear supply, build units => lost 30sec and unit build time (which always longer than 30sec)but only make what your production capacity can afford. - Supply drop: well, it does it job. About MULE: Protoss and Zerg always have faster worker production than Terran, it's easy for them to get 3,4 workers ahead of the Terran. Moreover, because Terran always has to have 1,2 workers dedicated to build stuffs, when you see in harvester tab, Terran has 30 workers, that means he only has 28 workers. 1 MULE is only equal to 4 SCVs, which bring the Terran's economy on par with other race. If there's no MULES, Terran will never ever win anything.
Just to add for some retarded reason Pylons build faster then overlords and supply depots.
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On December 16 2011 06:10 SystemAddict wrote:
So it's agreed then.
Overall, Terran is a harder race to play than Protoss.
Thats probably why terrans are quitting or switching.
Zerg is even easier imo. There is almost zero micro involved at all points of a game as Zerg.
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On December 16 2011 06:20 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:10 SystemAddict wrote:
So it's agreed then.
Overall, Terran is a harder race to play than Protoss.
Thats probably why terrans are quitting or switching. Zerg is even easier imo.
Not at the lowest levels because it's so inherently different from P/T and the statistics reflect that a bit. Personally I think Z is a lot easier at a diamond level because you can have much more sloppy play and win through decisionmaking.
Then again, most people who visit these forums have a lot better decisionmaking than most average players so I guess that sort of skews my idea.
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I switched from T to Z because of one thing: TvT
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On December 16 2011 06:17 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:03 canikizu wrote:On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts? .. not this again. About Supply block: Zerg: save money and larvas, wait for 30sec to clear supply and make boat load of stuffs. => lost 30sec and units build time, but have a boat load of units Protoss: build a pylon: wait for 30 sec to clear supply, then wait 5 second to warp in a load of units. => lost 35 sec and have load of units Terran - No supply drop: build a supply depot, wait for 30sec to clear supply, build units => lost 30sec and unit build time (which always longer than 30sec)but only make what your production capacity can afford. - Supply drop: well, it does it job. About MULE: Protoss and Zerg always have faster worker production than Terran, it's easy for them to get 3,4 workers ahead of the Terran. Moreover, because Terran always has to have 1,2 workers dedicated to build stuffs, when you see in harvester tab, Terran has 30 workers, that means he only has 28 workers. 1 MULE is only equal to 4 SCVs, which bring the Terran's economy on par with other race. If there's no MULES, Terran will never ever win anything. The MULE is just a bad design. Sure without it Terran would be screwed, but with the MULE Terran can lose scvs with very little impact. Please don't use the example of scvs building stuff, because it has very little impact and not worth debating over... And "only 4 scvs".. please don't understate that. Basically it means when you are on equal bases with Terran you are at a disadvantage.. there is such a thing called efficiency as well. At 3 bases Terran has 12 extra workers with no disadvantage if you forget to do it instantly, unlike Zerg for example. I wish they would get rid of the supply drop. Such a stupid ability
This is just not true, terran creates workers much slower than either other race, and loses mining time from workers when constructing buildings.
Losing workers as terran is DEVASTATING, much moreso than either other race. The idea that mule somehow compensates for losing all your workers is completely absurd. You scoff off the lost mining from construction but meanwhile you have to make 30 supply depots, and more production facilities than either other race. It is extremely significant.
Terran is the weakest race right now, and needs some serious buffs. Terran has no lategame and is way too reliant on their teir 1 units throughout the game.
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On December 16 2011 06:10 SystemAddict wrote:
So it's agreed then.
Overall, Terran is a harder race to play than Protoss.
Thats probably why terrans are quitting or switching.
Absolutely not, Terran may be harder to win with then when it was op but that does not make it harder then any of the other races in the current meta, if anything Terran has the easiest and most forgiving macro, and Terran micro is about on the same level of difficulty as Protoss. Bad players just like to make excuses so they seem less bad, that is true for players of all races.
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They aren't going to buff Terran because even still we have korean terran players winning gsl. And honestly I firmly believe that no matter how many more times they nerf Terran that top level korean pros will still find ways to win with it. So yeah, if you aren't an ex bw korean pro then you should probably switch to protoss or zerg if you want to win more. If you don't care so much about winning and you honestly find the gimmicky play style of terran a lot of fun to play then by all means, keep grinding away at it.
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On December 16 2011 06:27 Neurosis wrote:
They aren't going to buff Terran because even still we have korean terran players winning gsl. And honestly I firmly believe that no matter how many more times they nerf Terran that top level korean pros will still find ways to win with it. So yeah, if you aren't an ex bw korean pro then you should probably switch to protoss or zerg if you want to win more. If you don't care so much about winning and you honestly find the gimmicky play style of terran a lot of fun to play then by all means, keep grinding away at it.
As I've said, similar stuff in BW from what I understand. Protoss was much easier at 'ladder levels' but was underrepresented at pro levels. They won't go to either extreme - P won't ever be as hard as T in SC2, but it won't be as dominating at a pro level either.
If you're lucky it'll get fixed in LotV, but don't count on it. They're just making T a little bit easier at low levels to compensate with the unique thor and the amove friendly units in HotS.
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On December 16 2011 06:17 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:03 canikizu wrote:On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts? .. not this again. About Supply block: Zerg: save money and larvas, wait for 30sec to clear supply and make boat load of stuffs. => lost 30sec and units build time, but have a boat load of units Protoss: build a pylon: wait for 30 sec to clear supply, then wait 5 second to warp in a load of units. => lost 35 sec and have load of units Terran - No supply drop: build a supply depot, wait for 30sec to clear supply, build units => lost 30sec and unit build time (which always longer than 30sec)but only make what your production capacity can afford. - Supply drop: well, it does it job. About MULE: Protoss and Zerg always have faster worker production than Terran, it's easy for them to get 3,4 workers ahead of the Terran. Moreover, because Terran always has to have 1,2 workers dedicated to build stuffs, when you see in harvester tab, Terran has 30 workers, that means he only has 28 workers. 1 MULE is only equal to 4 SCVs, which bring the Terran's economy on par with other race. If there's no MULES, Terran will never ever win anything. The MULE is just a bad design. Sure without it Terran would be screwed, but with the MULE Terran can lose scvs with very little impact. Please don't use the example of scvs building stuff, because it has very little impact and not worth debating over... And "only 4 scvs".. please don't understate that. Basically it means when you are on equal bases with Terran you are at a disadvantage.. there is such a thing called efficiency as well. At 3 bases Terran has 12 extra workers with no disadvantage if you forget to do it instantly, unlike Zerg for example. I wish they would get rid of the supply drop. Such a stupid ability
It certainly isn't "very little effect"... if you've played Terran and have say, 3 SCVs building depots/waiting to build depots and like 3-4 SCVs building other buildings all the time you're 7 workers down... it's definitely not insignificant, you can definitely feel it.
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A few top korean terrans are very good therefore terrans will keep on getting nerfed. It is not impossible to win as terran vs z and p on ladder lol I dont understand why ppl are qqing like zergs did back in the end of last year. Man up ppl we play manly race stop with the I can never win as terran thing.
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On December 16 2011 06:02 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:48 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:40 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:37 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:[quote] http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water. youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it. Again, where did I contradict myself by throwing out 'those exact statements'. I haven't used anecdotal evidence, I haven't made sweeping generalizations that you can't argue with. I stated my opinion, and if I would state something like 'Terrans are played more because of boxer', I don't know, maybe I'd actually link to some kind of source that backs up my claim. You realize there probably is no way to provide hard evidence of that. It's not like every Korean who bought SC1 filled out a survey detailing why they chose a certain race. We understand that you want some source, but this source may not even exist. BoxeR is the number one name associated with Starcraft and it is reasonable to believe that he had a lot of influence on the nature of the Korean scene. Exactly, that's what I mean by unarguable points. You can't prove or disprove it, only agree or disagree. And presenting something like that as a fact when you can't know for sure how great the effect is is really, really bad for a discussion. THAT'S what I'm raging about. This thread has been 60 pages of people throwing 'facts' (FROM BOTH SIDES) and screaming at eachother. A lot of these discussions often come down to opinions yes, but TL can do better than this. I agree with you on that, I don't even know why BoxeR is relevant to this thread. The main problem I see is that us Terrans are largely trying to claim that we have to put in more effort to stay even with P and to a lesser extent Z. However, there is no accepted definition of effort. APM does not translate directly to effort or skill and overall it is just really hard to quantify. I can't continue in this thread though, I feel like everyone has been beating a dead horse for the past 40 pages and half the responses don't even correspond to the OP (he specifically said he wasn't considering GSL players, this was a discussion about ladder players). We are just trying to articulate why Terran may be dwindling as a race, and as there is no single definitive answer, the responses are going to be largely personal anecdotes on why we as Terran players have personally shied away from the ladder. You see, there is no piece of evidence or fact that we can point to explain this, as everyone has a unique personal reason. But anyways, no hard feelings, I just get frustrated talking about TvP >< No hard feelings <3 as for my opinion, I think T is a lot more forgiving at lower levels but really hard compared to Protoss/Zerg at a diamond/master level, but that evens out a bit more at the pro level. Diamond/Masters is where you start getting into the mid/lategame on equal footing - and for T, your lategame army is MUCH more fragile I think. edit: I do think P is easier at a lower level as well, to add to that, because of the ridiculous amount of simple cheeses Protoss has (cannonrushes, proxy 2gates, etc)
Yes, I do agree that early/mid game is where Terran shines the most. Thinking about it, I think the biggest problem in TvP is just the difficulty of scouting. If you get an incorrect read on the Protoss, it almost always spells disaster. It is just very difficult to pinpoint what strategy the Protoss will use, and there are so many aggressive options available. If you bunker up your natural ramp in anticipation of a robo/sentry push, a surprise warp prism or blink up will be game ending. Don't build enough bunkers and you will die to any variety of 2 base timing pushes. I always feel like I'm banking on a lucky scan or drop to give me crucial intel but protoss have become pretty adept at hiding tech and denying drops. Early pressure is a good way to get a read on your opponent but if you over commit in the slightest, you will be playing severe catchup. I just feel that without professional level mechanics and game sense, Terran has a hard time reading the Protoss player and reacting quick enough.
And moreso than anything else, I am still struggling to find a solid opener for TvP. Every build I try seems to have some severe counter.
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On December 16 2011 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:02 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:48 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:40 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:37 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T.
But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother.
[quote]
Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb.
Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water. youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it. Again, where did I contradict myself by throwing out 'those exact statements'. I haven't used anecdotal evidence, I haven't made sweeping generalizations that you can't argue with. I stated my opinion, and if I would state something like 'Terrans are played more because of boxer', I don't know, maybe I'd actually link to some kind of source that backs up my claim. You realize there probably is no way to provide hard evidence of that. It's not like every Korean who bought SC1 filled out a survey detailing why they chose a certain race. We understand that you want some source, but this source may not even exist. BoxeR is the number one name associated with Starcraft and it is reasonable to believe that he had a lot of influence on the nature of the Korean scene. Exactly, that's what I mean by unarguable points. You can't prove or disprove it, only agree or disagree. And presenting something like that as a fact when you can't know for sure how great the effect is is really, really bad for a discussion. THAT'S what I'm raging about. This thread has been 60 pages of people throwing 'facts' (FROM BOTH SIDES) and screaming at eachother. A lot of these discussions often come down to opinions yes, but TL can do better than this. I agree with you on that, I don't even know why BoxeR is relevant to this thread. The main problem I see is that us Terrans are largely trying to claim that we have to put in more effort to stay even with P and to a lesser extent Z. However, there is no accepted definition of effort. APM does not translate directly to effort or skill and overall it is just really hard to quantify. I can't continue in this thread though, I feel like everyone has been beating a dead horse for the past 40 pages and half the responses don't even correspond to the OP (he specifically said he wasn't considering GSL players, this was a discussion about ladder players). We are just trying to articulate why Terran may be dwindling as a race, and as there is no single definitive answer, the responses are going to be largely personal anecdotes on why we as Terran players have personally shied away from the ladder. You see, there is no piece of evidence or fact that we can point to explain this, as everyone has a unique personal reason. But anyways, no hard feelings, I just get frustrated talking about TvP >< No hard feelings <3 as for my opinion, I think T is a lot more forgiving at lower levels but really hard compared to Protoss/Zerg at a diamond/master level, but that evens out a bit more at the pro level. Diamond/Masters is where you start getting into the mid/lategame on equal footing - and for T, your lategame army is MUCH more fragile I think. edit: I do think P is easier at a lower level as well, to add to that, because of the ridiculous amount of simple cheeses Protoss has (cannonrushes, proxy 2gates, etc) Yes, I do agree that early/mid game is where Terran shines the most. Thinking about it, I think the biggest problem in TvP is just the difficulty of scouting. If you get an incorrect read on the Protoss, it almost always spells disaster. It is just very difficult to pinpoint what strategy the Protoss will use, and there are so many aggressive options available. If you bunker up your natural ramp in anticipation of a robo/sentry push, a surprise warp prism or blink up will be game ending. Don't build enough bunkers and you will die to any variety of 2 base timing pushes. I always feel like I'm banking on a lucky scan or drop to give me crucial intel but protoss have become pretty adept at hiding tech and denying drops. Early pressure is a good way to get a read on your opponent but if you over commit in the slightest, you will be playing severe catchup. I just feel that without professional level mechanics and game sense, Terran has a hard time reading the Protoss player and reacting quick enough.
This really is a problem in general with scouting, and I think blizzard stated something along those lines too. As someone who tries to play macro game, I really feel the same way about T early game. I see a rax, a marine, not even sure if you got gas, and can randomly pick something between 2-3 different marine all-ins, 1/1/1, 2rax, 3rax or just an actual 1rax CC. Hell, even a thor rush which I'm sure I'll encounter more since MMA demolished naniwa with it.
TL;DR: You're not alone in the OHMYGODIHAVENOIDEAWHATIMDOINGPICKARANDOMENEMYBUILDORDIE boat.
edit: My own opinion is also slightly biased because I don't really all-in, ever. A lot of P do because it's much easier to cleanly execute and still strong even if scouted. On the other hand, defending expansions can be really hard due to units being weaker in smaller groups as P and general immobility vs stuff like mutas or even drops. It's very frustrating to deal with, which is why most 'protoss maps' feature an easily defendable 3rd, because once past the midgame point you can actually just straight up kill your opponent if they commit too much on harassing, and therefore you can safely expand again.
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EPT
