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On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:On December 16 2011 04:49 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 04:47 Recognizable wrote:On December 16 2011 04:45 Pirat6662001 wrote:On December 16 2011 04:26 halfies wrote:On December 16 2011 04:20 Toppp wrote:
TvP seems pretty fucking impossible to win right now. totally impossible. thats why theres no protoss in the final of the blizzard cup. they were all too hard to beat and had to go home -.- Lets compare the talent that is there? Terrans have - MVP the best player in the world and Polt and MMA both won GSL Toss have- MC- won two gsl, made it through Hero- no gsl results of note Naniwa- foreigner, failed in code A Terrans were straight up better players who would win no matter what race they played They are also all koreans. Korea has the most terrans. Why? Boxer. People say this all the time but can you for the love of god please post some statistics that actually back this up? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you
Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION.
I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water.
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On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts?
Calling down a supply drop isn't a free pass. It is 300 minerals that you didn't get from a mule.
Protoss is arguably far superior to Terran in turtling.
The use of mules really just allows Terran to stay on par economically with Protoss and Zerg. I won't deny their strength in a base trade scenario, but that is a relatively specific situation and isn't really a sound element of a good strategy.
Not catching drops can be game ending for any race. Less so for Protoss because in the event that a drop does make it to your base (if it somehow makes it past blink stalkers and feedback) you can warp in a full round of units to defend.
Not scouting tech is bad for every race, scouting is an integral part of the game.
Terran and Zerg are much more rigid than Protoss. Don't have vikings or corrupters and Toss went Collo? Insta lose. Don't have ghosts or roaches and Toss went storm? Insta lose. Don't have marines and Toss went chargelots? Insta lose. Have marines for the chargelots but Toss went collosus AND temps? Insta lose if you dont have the perfect mix of ghost and vikings.
Toss hardly gets punished at all for bad positioning. Collosus can walk over any terrain, stalkers can BLINK, with sentries you can literally form a choke anywhere on the map at will.
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On December 16 2011 05:28 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:22 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts? I think mostly in the early game T is a lot more forgiving (between making safety salvagable bunkers, scans to scout/detect and a very general build for every MU). I also think the macro/army control, especially lategame, is a lot less forgiving (though I disagree that the army control is harder than P). i agree that army control is harder as terran if you want to stay on an even footing. I was saying positioning matters more for toss and you must admit that terran can easily catch or pull a toss out of position with drops and what not. keep in mind that if toss doesn't want to miss warpins they have to drop micro momentarily so its a tradeoff. Queuing units and calling down mules/supply in the late game allows for terran to focus more on things they can be doing with their army. I simply love watching a godlike terran (MPV?) with what I think is the best multitasking of any player. I really appreciate such talent..... Can't wait to see a top toss with those kind of skills, will be scary!
I think you guys have Hero already  It's sad tho, Hero just isn't playing the right race I feel like. Would be a more succesfull terran ^^
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On December 16 2011 05:00 WizardofGGG wrote:I think its great that the people, for whom the race got too hard switched. Terran becomes now an Elite Race, which is only played by the most brave and honorable men and women. ok, joke aside, i think terran was OP and still is in some aspects. nerf the ghost, nerf OC-Mules and we can talk about this. I think Protoss should still get a buff early game and zerg too. Early game Terran is a bitch  I know people will get angry but I'm a Terran player too and please Terran players, dont turn into what Zergs were some months ago and Protosses were some weeks ago. Dont whine, its unnecessary. We just need time to figure shit out and then it will be game. Remaining Terrans and everyone else fighting <3
I agree early game terran can be hard to deal with, but if you can make it past the 10 minute mark you pretty much have a win.
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On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:On December 16 2011 04:49 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 04:47 Recognizable wrote:On December 16 2011 04:45 Pirat6662001 wrote:On December 16 2011 04:26 halfies wrote:On December 16 2011 04:20 Toppp wrote:
TvP seems pretty fucking impossible to win right now. totally impossible. thats why theres no protoss in the final of the blizzard cup. they were all too hard to beat and had to go home -.- Lets compare the talent that is there? Terrans have - MVP the best player in the world and Polt and MMA both won GSL Toss have- MC- won two gsl, made it through Hero- no gsl results of note Naniwa- foreigner, failed in code A Terrans were straight up better players who would win no matter what race they played They are also all koreans. Korea has the most terrans. Why? Boxer. People say this all the time but can you for the love of god please post some statistics that actually back this up? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water.
youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it.
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On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts?
Who cares if you can unsupply block yourself, repair units, use mass mule, etc, when your entire fucking army is dead? (btw In terms of army building, zerg gets the leisure of building way more units in a minute. If zerg gets massively supply blocked, they can build 4-5 overlords, and when they pop, they can still produce 20 larve worth of food). But as I was going to say for my main point, zerg mobility allows them to back out of any fight they find unfavorable, and protoss can force field/storm their way out of battles as well. If your terran army gets caught out of position tvz or tvt, you're pretty much dead. (save tvp due to stim+medivac run mid game, early game can be gg pretty fast as well).
Not saying terran ISN'T least forgiving race to play, but it's unfair not to consider theses points.
As for protoss being the least forgiving, you can make the same points for terran. However I don't actually agree that not catching a drop is game ending =| Just warp in or retreat and deal with it? We probably have different ideas of what a drop consists of.
-A zerg who doesn't get roaches against a terran who goes for a bfh+marauder stim timing is auto lose (that's a case of not having the correct units or infrastucture.
-As I said earlier, getting caught out of seige or too far on creep tvz is easily game ending. I really feel that tvz, for both sides, has the large leverage for making a huge come back. Army control (getting too baneling hits, good marine splits and target firing) is very critical. Of course anytime you move your entire army around the map in awful positions you're going to be punished, but I don't feel like that's protoss specific.
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On December 16 2011 05:35 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:00 WizardofGGG wrote:I think its great that the people, for whom the race got too hard switched. Terran becomes now an Elite Race, which is only played by the most brave and honorable men and women. ok, joke aside, i think terran was OP and still is in some aspects. nerf the ghost, nerf OC-Mules and we can talk about this. I think Protoss should still get a buff early game and zerg too. Early game Terran is a bitch I know people will get angry but I'm a Terran player too and please Terran players, dont turn into what Zergs were some months ago and Protosses were some weeks ago. Dont whine, its unnecessary. We just need time to figure shit out and then it will be game. Remaining Terrans and everyone else fighting <3 I agree early game terran can be hard to deal with, but if you can make it past the 10 minute mark you pretty much have a win.
That depends. What I see a lot in pro level PvT is the protoss playing greedy and then winning or losing whether or not the Terran punishes it or not. A good example is naniwa's play vs MMA's proxy thor rush (double forge and a robo with low production off of 2bases after scouting a probable 1rax CC) and vs MVP at the MLG global invitational (where he failed to punish it on Daybreak and then lost in the base race because he was far behind the entire game).
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On December 16 2011 03:14 Sepi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:02 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:On December 16 2011 02:50 Wegandi wrote:
TvZ and TvT are pretty well balanced. It's TvP which is the trouble. I don't think any sane person would refute that Terran is the most mechanically difficult race. As I said before, and as QT said, all Terrans want is to make Protoss and Zerg have a higher skill ceiling / more mechanically demanding.
Make charge manual and not automatically do damage.
Make Colossus have to manually be charged / have FF.
etc. etc.
I'm sure there is a lot more that could be worked on to make the game more difficult overall, at least to bring some semblance of equality of opportunity / skill with the races. One race shouldn't have to take 25% more APM to play on an equal footing with the others.
I personally find the mechanics of Terran to be the easiest. It could be because of the way I use hotkeys, that I actually find the macro aspects of terran to be far easier, but I do. And yes I do play protoss, but it's because I find stargate play a lot more interesting than anything else in the game, and TvT bores me to death. I greatly disagree. As high diamond, P can just a move whit chargelots and colossi as u have to constantly kite and try to make efficent concave and micro vikings same time. And against HT if u miss those vital emps or snipes its all over. Me as high diamond struggle to fight against full upgraded P army. Offcourse i harras overtime, but if they sit on 2 base u cant do most of the time much. Macro whit T is easy, but engagin mechanics I think not.
I'm glad you greatly disagree about what I've found easier for me to do
Also I think you actually agree with me? Macro (mechanics) with T isn't necessarily the hardest.
I think that the less terrans on the ladder has nothing to do with how hard it is or actual balance, but rather that a large chunk of people perceive them as underbalanced/harder, and don't want to play them. (Or everyone is like me and finds bio-play to be boring).
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On December 16 2011 05:37 kimchizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:On December 16 2011 04:49 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 04:47 Recognizable wrote:On December 16 2011 04:45 Pirat6662001 wrote:On December 16 2011 04:26 halfies wrote:On December 16 2011 04:20 Toppp wrote:
TvP seems pretty fucking impossible to win right now. totally impossible. thats why theres no protoss in the final of the blizzard cup. they were all too hard to beat and had to go home -.- Lets compare the talent that is there? Terrans have - MVP the best player in the world and Polt and MMA both won GSL Toss have- MC- won two gsl, made it through Hero- no gsl results of note Naniwa- foreigner, failed in code A Terrans were straight up better players who would win no matter what race they played They are also all koreans. Korea has the most terrans. Why? Boxer. People say this all the time but can you for the love of god please post some statistics that actually back this up? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water. youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it.
Again, where did I contradict myself by throwing out 'those exact statements'. I haven't used anecdotal evidence, I haven't made sweeping generalizations that you can't argue with. I stated my opinion, and if I would state something like 'Terrans are played more because of boxer', I don't know, maybe I'd actually link to some kind of source that backs up my claim.
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I am a mid-masters Terran who is doing fine in TvT and TvZ. Struggling severely in late game TvP (I used to be fine, but now it seems that my army is always weaker even if I'm up in supply and land a dozen EMPs), and many of the earlier attacks I would use are not as effective as they were in the past.
I don't think there's an imbalance or anything. I just think that Terrans need to re-work their concept of the matchup (or maybe I'm just bad and need to suck less). I am planning to at least switch up how I play the matchup in an attempt to break any stagnation of gameplay I may have going on.
Either way, I have seen a bunch of terran buddies switch races (mostly to zerg). They don't seem to state any particular game-balance reason for it. Just thinking that the other races seem more interesting. I have no desire to stop playing Terran myself. I switched to Terran originally long ago because they seemed to have more options than other races and I love drops, and I still feel the same way. Go Terran!
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On December 16 2011 05:40 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:37 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:On December 16 2011 04:49 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 04:47 Recognizable wrote:On December 16 2011 04:45 Pirat6662001 wrote:On December 16 2011 04:26 halfies wrote:
[quote]
totally impossible.
thats why theres no protoss in the final of the blizzard cup. they were all too hard to beat and had to go home -.- Lets compare the talent that is there? Terrans have - MVP the best player in the world and Polt and MMA both won GSL Toss have- MC- won two gsl, made it through Hero- no gsl results of note Naniwa- foreigner, failed in code A Terrans were straight up better players who would win no matter what race they played They are also all koreans. Korea has the most terrans. Why? Boxer. People say this all the time but can you for the love of god please post some statistics that actually back this up? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water. youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it. Again, where did I contradict myself by throwing out 'those exact statements'. I haven't used anecdotal evidence, I haven't made sweeping generalizations that you can't argue with. I stated my opinion, and if I would state something like 'Terrans are played more because of boxer', I don't know, maybe I'd actually link to some kind of source that backs up my claim.
You realize there probably is no way to provide hard evidence of that. It's not like every Korean who bought SC1 filled out a survey detailing why they chose a certain race. We understand that you want some source, but this source may not even exist. BoxeR is the number one name associated with Starcraft and it is reasonable to believe that he had a lot of influence on the nature of the Korean scene.
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On December 16 2011 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:40 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:37 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:On December 16 2011 04:49 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 04:47 Recognizable wrote:On December 16 2011 04:45 Pirat6662001 wrote:
[quote]
Lets compare the talent that is there?
Terrans have -
MVP the best player in the world
and Polt and MMA both won GSL
Toss have-
MC- won two gsl, made it through
Hero- no gsl results of note
Naniwa- foreigner, failed in code A
Terrans were straight up better players who would win no matter what race they played They are also all koreans. Korea has the most terrans. Why? Boxer. People say this all the time but can you for the love of god please post some statistics that actually back this up? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water. youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it. Again, where did I contradict myself by throwing out 'those exact statements'. I haven't used anecdotal evidence, I haven't made sweeping generalizations that you can't argue with. I stated my opinion, and if I would state something like 'Terrans are played more because of boxer', I don't know, maybe I'd actually link to some kind of source that backs up my claim. You realize there probably is no way to provide hard evidence of that. It's not like every Korean who bought SC1 filled out a survey detailing why they chose a certain race. We understand that you want some source, but this source may not even exist. BoxeR is the number one name associated with Starcraft and it is reasonable to believe that he had a lot of influence on the nature of the Korean scene.
Exactly, that's what I mean by unarguable points. You can't prove or disprove it, only agree or disagree. And presenting something like that as a fact when you can't know for sure how great the effect is is really, really bad for a discussion.
THAT'S what I'm raging about. This thread has been 60 pages of people throwing 'facts' (FROM BOTH SIDES) and screaming at eachother. A lot of these discussions often come down to opinions yes, but TL can do better than this.
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Looking at the sc2 ranks statistics I think its interesting that T is holding even with P in Korea, but is the least played race everywhere else.
I guess that adds some credence to the argument that Terran is the most difficult to master, but also has the highest skillcap.
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The fact is a foreign Terran hasn't won a major live event in over a year-- Jinro at DC I believe. How many foreign Zergs and Tosses have we had win? I'm sure people will dismiss this as foreign Terran's being "bad" and worse than the other races, but when the same thing was suggested about Toss players in korea they all flipped out.
I think the facts that Terran is the least played race in masters and diamond, foreign Terran's have been struggling for a long time, and that Korean Terran's always perform wall to the brink of domination, that Terran has the highest skillcap, but without korean mechanics Terran is a very unforgiving race to play.
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On December 16 2011 05:50 RoboBob wrote:
Looking at the sc2 ranks statistics I think its interesting that T is holding even with P in Korea, but is the least played race everywhere else.
I guess that adds some credence to the argument that Terran is the most difficult to master, but also has the highest skillcap.
I think most people agree with this to some extent or another, but I don't think it's worth debating about. Just like BW, blizzard will walk a line between difficulty and balance. Protoss were supposedly the easiest race in BW (never played it myself sadly) but also the least represented in the OSL/MSL as far as I'm aware.
The same happens with SC2, it's a design flaw that's really, really hard to fix and it doesn't look like blizzard will try to fix it for HotS.
On December 16 2011 05:53 xrapture wrote:
The fact is a foreign Terran hasn't won a major live event in over a year-- Jinro at DC I believe. How many foreign Zergs and Tosses have we had win? I'm sure people will dismiss this as foreign Terran's being "bad" and worse than the other races, but when the same thing was suggested about Toss players in korea they all flipped out.
I think the facts that Terran is the least played race in masters and diamond, foreign Terran's have been struggling for a long time, and that Korean Terran's always perform wall to the brink of domination, that Terran has the highest skillcap, but without korean mechanics Terran is a very unforgiving race to play.
Looking through the TLPD, Major won the LA bnet invitational and before that Thorzain with the TSL3.
Since Thorzain's win, there have been 14 other foreigner wins at premier events, though for example Huk and stephano dominate quite a bit of that. T doesn't have a comparable 'foreign hero' except Thorzain maybe.
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On December 16 2011 05:34 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts? Calling down a supply drop isn't a free pass. It is 300 minerals that you didn't get from a mule. Protoss is arguably far superior to Terran in turtling. The use of mules really just allows Terran to stay on par economically with Protoss and Zerg. I won't deny their strength in a base trade scenario, but that is a relatively specific situation and isn't really a sound element of a good strategy. Not catching drops can be game ending for any race. Less so for Protoss because in the event that a drop does make it to your base (if it somehow makes it past blink stalkers and feedback) you can warp in a full round of units to defend. Not scouting tech is bad for every race, scouting is an integral part of the game. Terran and Zerg are much more rigid than Protoss. Don't have vikings or corrupters and Toss went Collo? Insta lose. Don't have ghosts or roaches and Toss went storm? Insta lose. Don't have marines and Toss went chargelots? Insta lose. Have marines for the chargelots but Toss went collosus AND temps? Insta lose if you dont have the perfect mix of ghost and vikings. Toss hardly gets punished at all for bad positioning. Collosus can walk over any terrain, stalkers can BLINK, with sentries you can literally form a choke anywhere on the map at will.
Don't jump down my throat, it was just my opinion/2 cents...
Also well your post offered some insight (I appreciate that) I still say your dead wrong on supply call down. I think you are really undervaluing the ability. Also I was talking about forgiving aspects of the race.
Supply call down is most definitely forgiving and neither of the other races have anything remotely like it or the mule....
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On December 16 2011 05:48 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:40 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:37 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:On December 16 2011 04:49 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 04:47 Recognizable wrote:
[quote]
They are also all koreans. Korea has the most terrans. Why? Boxer.
People say this all the time but can you for the love of god please post some statistics that actually back this up? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water. youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it. Again, where did I contradict myself by throwing out 'those exact statements'. I haven't used anecdotal evidence, I haven't made sweeping generalizations that you can't argue with. I stated my opinion, and if I would state something like 'Terrans are played more because of boxer', I don't know, maybe I'd actually link to some kind of source that backs up my claim. You realize there probably is no way to provide hard evidence of that. It's not like every Korean who bought SC1 filled out a survey detailing why they chose a certain race. We understand that you want some source, but this source may not even exist. BoxeR is the number one name associated with Starcraft and it is reasonable to believe that he had a lot of influence on the nature of the Korean scene. Exactly, that's what I mean by unarguable points. You can't prove or disprove it, only agree or disagree. And presenting something like that as a fact when you can't know for sure how great the effect is is really, really bad for a discussion. THAT'S what I'm raging about. This thread has been 60 pages of people throwing 'facts' (FROM BOTH SIDES) and screaming at eachother. A lot of these discussions often come down to opinions yes, but TL can do better than this.
I agree with you on that, I don't even know why BoxeR is relevant to this thread. The main problem I see is that us Terrans are largely trying to claim that we have to put in more effort to stay even with P and to a lesser extent Z. However, there is no accepted definition of effort. APM does not translate directly to effort or skill and overall it is just really hard to quantify. I can't continue in this thread though, I feel like everyone has been beating a dead horse for the past 40 pages and half the responses don't even correspond to the OP (he specifically said he wasn't considering GSL players, this was a discussion about ladder players). We are just trying to articulate why Terran may be dwindling as a race, and as there is no single definitive answer, the responses are going to be largely personal anecdotes on why we as Terran players have personally shied away from the ladder. You see, there is no piece of evidence or fact that we can point to explain this, as everyone has a unique personal reason. But anyways, no hard feelings, I just get frustrated talking about TvP ><
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On December 16 2011 05:57 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:34 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:19 Rorschach wrote:On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. i agree with everything your saying EXCEPT that terran is the least forgiving race to play. I feel terrans can actually make the most mistakes and still do well in any given match. Call down supply to instantly be get rid of supply block, repair mechanic for blds/mech units and medivac for the rest (bio). They also have some of the best mobility along with the best turtling (planetary, repair and bld liftoff) Oh yeah and the worst offender being the mule. Terran is the only race who can go down to zero harvesters and easily comeback in a game (assuming both players are on even footing otherwise) I might be bias because I play toss but I feel that Toss is actually on of the less forgiving races to play. Protoss power is best in the late game, not catching drops can be game ending, not scouting zerg tech potentially game ending. Also Toss tech is the most rigid of the three races. If you don't have the correct units or infrastructure you just lose. Also toss seem to be punished the most from bad positioning and/or relying the most on proper engagements.... That being said what I have played of terran I get a feel for the amount of micro that is needed and also the pain in the ass that tank control is.... Thoughts? Calling down a supply drop isn't a free pass. It is 300 minerals that you didn't get from a mule. Protoss is arguably far superior to Terran in turtling. The use of mules really just allows Terran to stay on par economically with Protoss and Zerg. I won't deny their strength in a base trade scenario, but that is a relatively specific situation and isn't really a sound element of a good strategy. Not catching drops can be game ending for any race. Less so for Protoss because in the event that a drop does make it to your base (if it somehow makes it past blink stalkers and feedback) you can warp in a full round of units to defend. Not scouting tech is bad for every race, scouting is an integral part of the game. Terran and Zerg are much more rigid than Protoss. Don't have vikings or corrupters and Toss went Collo? Insta lose. Don't have ghosts or roaches and Toss went storm? Insta lose. Don't have marines and Toss went chargelots? Insta lose. Have marines for the chargelots but Toss went collosus AND temps? Insta lose if you dont have the perfect mix of ghost and vikings. Toss hardly gets punished at all for bad positioning. Collosus can walk over any terrain, stalkers can BLINK, with sentries you can literally form a choke anywhere on the map at will. Don't jump down my throat, it was just my opinion/2 cents... Also well your post offered some insight (I appreciate that) I still say your dead wrong on supply call down. I think you are really undervaluing the ability. Also I was talking about forgiving aspects of the race. Supply call down is most definitely forgiving and neither of the races have anything remotely like it or the mule....
Sorry, I don't mean to come off like that. I see what you mean, supply drop has definitely given me some slack more than a few times.
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On December 16 2011 05:57 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:48 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:45 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 05:40 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:37 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:26 kimchizzy wrote:On December 16 2011 05:09 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 05:05 Mehukannu wrote:On December 16 2011 04:49 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
People say this all the time but can you for the love of god please post some statistics that actually back this up? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Looking at this link his statement seems to be true. There seems to be more terran players in master, diamond, silver and bronze league. Platinum and gold is very close to the point that there would be more terrans than protoss or zergs. I mean 'korea has most terrans because of boxer'. Going across all leagues, P are roughly equally played as T. But let me guess, despite that evidence it's because 'more players WOULD play protoss if not for boxer' or some other unarguable bullshit. This whole discussion has been one opinionated sewer of people screaming at eachother. On December 16 2011 05:08 SystemAddict wrote:
Does the sun rise everyday?
If you say so, you better show me proof. I demand an article from the New York Times or a highly recognized scientific journal as proof.
Until then, please stop saying the sun rises everyday if you are not willing to show me a credible publication's statistics. Hey man, everyone knows Protoss is the worst race! It's just like the sun rising everyday! If you don't know it, you're just dumb. Seriously don't exaggerate to get around the point, things as opinionated as this are NOT as clear as night and day (in the most literal sense of the word). for someone whos bashing everyone for throwing out opinions without fact, you're doing pretty well at contradicting yourself. maybe you should try playing all the races and give an unbiased opinion rather than trying to downtalk everyone who disagrees with you Where exactly am I contradicting yourself? Oh and FYI, it's really impossible to be knowledgeable of this game and be unbiased. I'm not downtalking people who disagree with me, hell if you'd read the thread, I actually AGREE that Terran is harder to play IN MY OPINION. I've also said to the guy quoting the GSL winners to not use anecdotal evidence as well as the other side of the fence. You just don't want to face what I said because a normal discussion would blow your opinionated 'facts' out of the water. youre contradicting yourself by throwing out the exact same statements that youre accusing these "terran biased" players for. Just because you say its not true, does not make it so. Sorry, that whatever anyone says to hurt your race upsets you. and FYI I never implied that its possible to know every degree of mechanics of the game, but you could at least stop being bashful toward the people who support terran and have played terran for a long enough time to have an opinion. Why bash people for having an opinion? you have your own, so stfu and deal with it. Again, where did I contradict myself by throwing out 'those exact statements'. I haven't used anecdotal evidence, I haven't made sweeping generalizations that you can't argue with. I stated my opinion, and if I would state something like 'Terrans are played more because of boxer', I don't know, maybe I'd actually link to some kind of source that backs up my claim. You realize there probably is no way to provide hard evidence of that. It's not like every Korean who bought SC1 filled out a survey detailing why they chose a certain race. We understand that you want some source, but this source may not even exist. BoxeR is the number one name associated with Starcraft and it is reasonable to believe that he had a lot of influence on the nature of the Korean scene. Exactly, that's what I mean by unarguable points. You can't prove or disprove it, only agree or disagree. And presenting something like that as a fact when you can't know for sure how great the effect is is really, really bad for a discussion. THAT'S what I'm raging about. This thread has been 60 pages of people throwing 'facts' (FROM BOTH SIDES) and screaming at eachother. A lot of these discussions often come down to opinions yes, but TL can do better than this. I agree with you on that, I don't even know why BoxeR is relevant to this thread. The main problem I see is that us Terrans are largely trying to claim that we have to put in more effort to stay even with P and to a lesser extent Z. However, there is no accepted definition of effort. APM does not translate directly to effort or skill and overall it is just really hard to quantify. I can't continue in this thread though, I feel like everyone has been beating a dead horse for the past 40 pages and half the responses don't even correspond to the OP (he specifically said he wasn't considering GSL players, this was a discussion about ladder players). We are just trying to articulate why Terran may be dwindling as a race, and as there is no single definitive answer, the responses are going to be largely personal anecdotes on why we as Terran players have personally shied away from the ladder. You see, there is no piece of evidence or fact that we can point to explain this, as everyone has a unique personal reason. But anyways, no hard feelings, I just get frustrated talking about TvP ><
No hard feelings <3 as for my opinion, I think T is a lot more forgiving at lower levels but really hard compared to Protoss/Zerg at a diamond/master level, but that evens out a bit more at the pro level. Diamond/Masters is where you start getting into the mid/lategame on equal footing - and for T, your lategame army is MUCH more fragile I think.
edit: I do think P is easier at a lower level as well, to add to that, because of the ridiculous amount of simple cheeses Protoss has (cannonrushes, proxy 2gates, etc)
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EPT
