|
Terran is not underpowered or overpowered. Terran simply needs a play style that is much different than what a lot of its player base expected due in part to the evolution of the SC2 metagame.
My APM was 68apm/57eapm as Terran and it jumped to 99apm/79eapm as Zerg.
It's not that Terran needs *more* apm, it's that the apm terran needs is much more concentrated. Zerg as a race has a LOT more stuff you can sink apm into all throughout the game from injects, to tumors, to overlords, to expansion/map control management, etc.... However, since these things are more spread out, I had the time to get to all of them when I switched--hence the massive increase in APM despite my hand speed remaining the same.
It's not about Terran being more or less difficult than the other races. As the game becomes more and more figured out, the requirements and the expectations of the races both mechanically, strategically and tactically becomes more and more specific. As this specificity solidifies, so too does the specificity of a player's race choice. It just so happens that, for now, my play style fits Zerg better than Terran, so I switched (back) to Zerg. Others are starting to do this as well--even though not everyone realizes it. They keep blaming racial imbalance, supposed "increased difficulty," tactical limitations, strategic staleness, etc...
The truth is that some people didn't realize that Terran requiring a lot of unit micro translated directly to a hand speed limitation. Marine splitting is not something for slow hands, neither is stutter step. Slower hands might be able to handle landing forcefields, if those "slower hands" had the accuracy of CounterStrike pro. And so on and so forth down the list of the various multitude of micro requirements each race has.
The races are different, stop fighting over which one's more or less difficult than the other.
|
I played all three races for at least 150 games, and Terran was the most fun for a while, but then I got bored at how uninteresting it is compared to Zerg and Protoss. What I really love with Zerg is how rhytmic the play is, with the injects and timing the drone production. With Protoss, I really like the forcefielding. With Terran, I really like how the units shine with micro. For that reason, I am now a Platinum random player. Not trying hard enough to get to higher leagues tho.
|
I'm a high masters random player, and I can "understand" the reason why Terran players are struggling. With Terran, you need finesse of control to be able to be offensive. They are built defensively (turtely), which means that finding new offensive options is hard, and that's why the slow-push is so good (just re-establishing defence). This mindset is pretty pervasive even though high-octane drop-focused styles are viable (MMA, MMA, MMA, HURRAH) because the 'best' terran player in the world (MVP) makes it work so well. Where Nestea exemplifies that "rhythmic flow" of the game and HuK/Hero/Mc/Naniwa all blow us away with their control/micro/macro/diversity, the most iconic terran player plays "safe" (read, boring).
Toss/Zerg allows for more easy (and visibly, thanks to pro players) aggressive strategies.
Then again, when BFH builds were intro-ed by Team SlayerS, I saw many many many more Terran players.
|
On December 14 2011 10:27 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Playing terran tends to be more work than the other races, just like in bw. It feels like you need to outplay your opponent every game, and particularly in TvZ one micro mistake will quite literally cost you the game, so terrans take many frustrating losses.
statements like these are just dumb because it's just the same for zerg.
|
Numbers never lies:
My APM was 68apm/57eapm as Terran and it jumped to 99apm/79eapm as Zerg....
Terrans vanishing from the ladder....
Zerg will have 200/200 by the 13 min mark while Terran is only at around 140/200....
it really feels like i am loosing too lesser players, with half the APM (i have around 100 on the new patch) and no multitasking at all....
Just reading few random posts in this thread and you'll understand that T is the most difficult race to play. From the beginning Blixxard JUST nerfed T and gave more and more to other races (IT'S A FACT) only because of T pro-K players eating tourneys. That's the result...
|
Hmm, maybe its because of the psycological impact the constant nerfs have?
|
I can also only agree to the sentiment in this thread that in live reports, in general in the community and often on the ladder you just get people who hate a player / you / your play simply due to "Terran imba". If I beat some Protoss who goes for some let's not expand until 10 minutes as what I was doing was essentially all in which I beat by not floating my fast expand orbital down to my natural until stim / medivacs are done when I then crush them they're just go oh Terran imba, stim imba, 1 a t bla bla bla when they flat out lost with their all in rubbish. Likewise when you find some zerg who decides to 1 base baneling / roach rush you and then moans when you make one banshee, some bunkers, a siege tank and screams about cheese.
I would easily say on ladder my opponents responses are (most common at top):
1) Leave and say nothing
2) Moan about Terran / my play in the game
3) Say gg
My APM isn't that high and although I've only ever played Terran I think that if I want to play in the highest league possible (without severely changing the amount I play) then it probably wouldn't hurt to learn zerg or protoss since I don't have the APM to micro my army well in engagements.
Maybe, MAYBE the reason that Terran isn't played as much as other races is that Terran plays like pretty much every other RTS game... Make house -> Robots come out of house -> Robots shoot lazers -> Someone wins and the winning or losing depends on making the right robots or teaching your robots ultra lasers (best meme ever) and people choose not to play Terran as they want something a bit different to other games but I think it's about possible to argue that people who simply want to get in to the highest division possible while having a day job that isn't pro gaming are better off playing Z or P.
Now I'd just like to go on a rant about late game TvP...
+ Show Spoiler +It is so god damn frustrating that in late game TvP you have to win every engagement to win the game. If you lose one pissing battle then it is game friggin over. Think about it, assume one side barely wins a battle with say... 40 supply of army in the centre of the field. If you're Terran you have half dead bio, ghosts with no energy and you aren't likely to have enough energy on the medivacs to heal your ground army while your next 40 supply will appear from 20 different buildings between 25 and 40 seconds later. If you decide to press in to a Protoss base and they haven't just lobbed some cannons down then you'll have to contend with the 40 supply of chargelot / archon which they've already warped in by the time you've walked over there and is then impossible to kite due to the lack of health for stim and medivac energy to heal meaning that by JUST beating a Protoss late game your most major win is the fact they couldn't warp in and keep any high templar to gain energy straight away, you have to utterly face roll a Protoss late game army to be able to then cause significant damage to their production or economy.
If you are a Protoss and you just beat a Terran late game with say... 40 supply of army in the centre of the map then...
You warp in 40 supply of whatever you want at your nearest pylon, which is probably at least as close to the enemy base as it is your own. When they all warp in at the same spot you join it up with your main force which is regenerating health and then go decide which bit of the Terran base you want to kill. Now, with stim the Terran did probably manage to escape with some units which are half dead and have no healing as the slow medivacs got chased down by your faster stalkers / archons. So, while you're killing whatever remnants of the Terran army remains and have walked in to their base (at which time the best Terran can hope for is the 40 supply they've made from 20 different buildings is juts about finished up) you can put a pylon down in their base, go home and chrono boost every warp gate with the stockpiled chrono and then warp in another round of units stupidly fast.
I'm not even joking that when I say assuming a Protoss has 20 warpgates (against a Terrans 20 Barracks) then the Protoss can create 80 supply of units before the Terran can make 40. It will take 23.7 seconds with chrono boost for a Protoss to create two zealots from one warp gate, it will take 25 seconds for a Reactored barracks to make two Marines. And given that you'd NEVER have 20 reactored barracks then after 25 second you'll either still be waiting on maruaders / ghosts to finish up or will be producing 1 supplys worth of units from a building designed to allow you to create a 2 supply unit (or of course the standard late game army of mass reaper).
Then given the fact Protoss can create all their supply in one place while a Terran's supply appears from a multitude of locations and needs to be rallied up it's pretty hard to take that by losing a late game TvP fight by a small margin basically means game over as you will be taking economic / production damage before your reinforcement cycle can kick in
|
terran is boring... went zerg
|
I used to play Terran but stopped because I didn't have the patience and multitask required to handle TvZ and TvT. It's really hard for us noobs to constantly reposition siege tanks, with one bad move costing us the game.
|
There are no top American Terran pros. So as a result there are far fewer Terran fans.
|
mvtaylor what you said in your PvT rant I agree with.
I've played both Terran and Protoss to masters, I can safely say that Terran is a lot more difficult to reach Masters with than Protoss. Honestly, the difference between some Master's Protoss players and Gold Protoss players are the macro and that's all, I don't see any difference in "strategy" or "micro", they both just A-move a huge deathball across the map. If you can keep your minerals low and keep up with expanding, while having 2 chronoboosted forges - you can win 90% of your games with just an A-move, and that isn't hard because 90% of diamond/low masters matches are just 200/200 macro games, so Protoss theoretically should be winning a lot of games.
|
Terran is by far the most difficult race to play in upper levels of the ladder. Weaker lategame compared to either other race, and extremely demanding mechanical and multitasking requirements.
When you aren't able to win regularly anymore by simply outmacroing your opponent, terrans weakness is pretty evident. Getting to lategame as terran you can't really push anymore against either other race and you basically just wait to die.
|
On December 15 2011 15:24 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 14:45 mvtaylor wrote:On December 15 2011 13:15 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 12:52 Wegandi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 12:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do. Even then Protoss have a lot of great early game pressure builds / all ins. Yes, Terran have 1-1-1 and siege/stim timing, but at least Protoss isn't necessitated to cheese to have a chance. You try and play a macro game against Protoss and see how that turns for you against an equally skilled player. They'll rape your damn face off if they have the slightest clue of what they are doing. (Warp Prism harass while battle...is just too mechanically demanding for most Terran players and even those who have very good APM and multi-task) This is crap. My average APM is 81 and i'm a low plat protoss and you'd smash me. You must be playing the worst 'master' level protoss players in the world if their APM is that low OR you're not doing anything to pressure them at all. Their APM would be higher if you banshee harass for example cause they warp in stalkers, move units and probes, chase with obs, they blink to snipe them off and so on. If they are just sitting there on 3 bases and macro'ing to their hearts content, WTF are you doing? Why are you even expecting to win? Do you ask them in chat if they are ready to have a big fight by the xal'naga tower in the middle of the map too? 'Are you ready? I just finished my 3/3 infantry. Oh, need another few mintues to get 2 more colossus and shield upgrade to finish. NP bro! Battle at 22 minues!' If you have 20 - 30 rax and they can do a warp in after an engagement and break into your base and kill your production before your first round of units come out ... oh, hang on that won't work. If they are warping in during the engagement they are not at 200/200. with 60 supply tied up in probes, at least 20 set aside to warp in zealots in your main (and even then it's only 10 zealots) some more in oberservers and the warp prism their main army strength is what, 100 supply MAX? And your 140 supply, fully upgraded MMMGV can't wint he fight? Sounds like YOU need to work on your engements or they have fucking great positioning and ability to control their army WHILE warping in to your main. Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. If i'm a protoss and i lose my whole fucking army in the middle of the map and you have 50 supply of MMMG left guess what, I'm fucked. Even IF my 10 zealots in your main are killing your rax, your mining bases are fine, your rax can fly and you have an army in the middle which can now crush my base. You're losing the main engagement and blaming it on other shit. Terran early game is a hell of a lot safer and more stable than protoss early game. Just being able build your 2nd orbital in your base and lift it if they do a 1 base play ensures that. Scouting terran builds is a nightmare since they all look the same initially. Rax, factory, starport means MMM or banshee or hellion drops, or 1-1-1 and with depots all scouting is denied until an obs can get in, and when it does you 'know' the robo timing, scv scout the natural, scan for robo den ETC. You know all this shit. You're leagues higher than me. If the Protoss player is worth half their salt, unless you are doing an all-in it's quite easy to stave off early pressure until you get your stim timing which is around 9min at the earliest, not to mention you can FF the ramp, so not sure how you are losing to early pressure especially when stalkers with proper micro can destroy so many marines. I put on all sorts of pressure plays vs Protoss, but you know what, that isn't supposed to win you the game. It's a tactic to ensure you gain either a slight army advantage, or an economic advantage (and ideally both), but since Protoss can defend so easily with Warp-Ins and their superior unit compositions / faster upgrades, you really have to deal a significant amount of early damage to have a chance coming into the later stages of the game. If you use Banshees it means you are significantly behind the Protoss in economy since most Protoss these days go 1Gate FE or 3Gate FE > Robo, and then there are all the 1 base all ins like VRs @ 6:15, Immortal All ins @ 8-9 mins, 1 base Colo push with 2 Colo + range @ 9:40, etc. etc. Generally you know what the Protoss is going to do by 3:55 because that is when they usually get the 2nd gas, but you aren't ever sure, and using a scan so early...isn't generally a good idea because the MULE is so important. You have no idea. You do not need 80APM as Protoss. Most master Protoss players do not even have 65EAPM (use SC2gears). Their army require very little if any micro in macro games and its generally in the early stages of the game where Protoss have to micro a lot more, and if they are any good Stalkers can really severely cripple your early game because they outrange marines and can pick off lone marauders pretty well. I watched Oz destroy aLive this morning with 2 stalkers. Of course, aLive didn't play optimally, because if Protoss pressure early with Stalker you generally need a bunker, or more production facilities and good mind game micro with marines. Terran have a few good early timings to take advantage of in the early-mid game. Before Colo / HT are able to be fielded properly / as stim / shields are done / first medivacs / +1/+1 / etc., but normally, they aren't meant to win you the game (and against equally skilled player you really shouldn't). 7 Gate 2-base all ins are also quite difficult to hold. So Protoss have as many early game / mid - game pressures and all ins for Terran to deal with also that require different answers for each one. The problem with TvP isn't the early or mid game, where I feel it is generally balanced to a large extent. It's when the game gets past the 12-14 minute mark. You shouldn't have to be ahead either economically, or militarily to say you have a shot at winning. If you are even with the Protoss @ 14min, you are in some very deep shit. That doesn't sound all too balanced to me. I'm not one to cheese much if at all, but I've started to rely on cheesing more and more in the MU because Protoss simply roll face over Terran armies in the macro / late games. Archons / Chargelot +3+3 are so damn difficult to kill efficiently, when they have HT storming and Colo beaming their lasers behind them with little to no micro effort. A Terran late game army can be completely decimated within a second or two. Even with 12-14 Vikings it still takes 4-5 seconds to wipe out 4-5 +3 armor Colossus, meanwhile you also have to stutter step, EMP/Snipe, Macro while stutter stepping (heaven forbid Archons get a few shots off), and make sure to micro your Vikings away from Stalkers so you can actually kill a few of their Colossus. Ask most decently skilled / ranked Terrans and they'll tell you the same thing. Even if you are ahead economically in late game you can EASILY lose the game in one engagement with the deathball. You simply cannot remax efficiently, and as fast as needed to stop Protoss from stomping into your facilities, and killing your units coming from your production facilities. With 20 rax you are still looking at three to four cycles before you remax, whereas Protoss from 30 gateways can remax in one to two because they are so goddamn efficient late game. They have Archon Splash, Colo splash, and HT splash, plus the fact that zealot with charge always do damage even with stutter step (I do not like that change Blizz made...). What splash do Terrans have? EMP. You know how hard it is to get off good EMPs, Macro, Stutter Step, etc.? Decent Protoss' keep their HT in the back and guarded / spread. It doesn't take much APM to do this. Not to mention most P keep an obs or two with their deathballs to stop cloaked ghosts. So hard to drop good Protosses who have good obs uses. They see drops coming from a mile away / warp-in. I wouldn't have a problem with the MU if Protoss required as much mechanically as Terran did. It simply baffles why people argue one race should be more mechanically demanding than another to play on an even footing. Yes, I do need to work on late-game TvP engagements. All Terrans do. You know why? Because its so damn difficult to even come out on an even footing. Protoss have too much splash too easily used compared to Terran. Colo + HT + Archon/Chargelot. You have to be god to micro your MMMVG to come out ahead against Protoss late game. The same cannot be said for Protoss. Is it too much I ask that Blizzard either make Protoss units require more micro / race be more mechanically demanding / on par with Terran? Try playing with 80EAPM as Terran against Protoss with 80EAPM. You have no idea what it takes to play Terran. Until you do you shouldn't make stupid statements like: Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. Thankyou! Finally someone can lay out clearly, in a no BS manner what the problem is. Correct me if i'm wrong but the gist seems to be: MMM requires too much of your, i guess attention bank, to take advantage of your special abilities or positioning. Like, 75% of your attention is spent moving your bioball while 10% is queuing up reinforcements leaving 15% for EMP / viking and control while protoss has 30% worrying about keeping their zealots from either getting in the way of range units or getting too far ahead of the deathball and dieing, 20% reinforcing (yes, taking your eyes off the fight to do a warp in is harder than tapping your production facilities and hitting a and d) leaving 50% for colossus control and HT movment/storms. (obviously i'm making the % up to get the idea accross) Does this sound like a fair statement? The flip of this coin is that the protoss 200 supply army is worth a LOT more resources thant he terran army so in a way it 'should' be better at this point. Also fair?Finally if you lose the big engagement and you haven't done enough damage your reinforcements take too long to get on the field so you're screwed at this point. Couple of questions I'd love to know answers to if you have the time to answer: for how long has P been better in the end game? Do you think it's the EMP nerf or metagame shift or has the protoss composition changed (same units, different ratios)? Your army is cheaper, you should hit max first if you're economically even, so why are you screwed if you're 'economically even at 14 minutes' ? Especially since your army is min heavy and mules help a lot with that. The bolded part is rubbish + Show Spoiler +
Zealot (2 supply) = 100 Minerals
2x Marine (2 sup.) = 100 Minerals
Stalker (2s) = 125 Mins, 50 Gas
Marauder (2s) = 100 Mins, 25 Gas
You're going to want some medivacs with that lot so for every 8 supply add 1 Medivac, 2s @ 100/100
Also the total upgrades for 3/3 M/M with stim, shield, concussive is 1300/1300 while for 3/3 Blink Stalker/Chargelot it's 1250/1250
Colossus (6s) = 300/200
3x Vikings (6s) = 450/225
Yeah you will want Extended Lance so add 200/200 divided by the number of Colossus in the ball
High Templar (2s) = 50/150
Ghost (2s) = 200/100
Archon (4s) = 100/300, 175/275 or 250/250
2x Ghost (4s) = 400/200
200/200 for psi storm while it's 250/250 for both ghost upgrades (100/100 if you don't want to snipe obs and carpet emp while cloaked)
Some things are a bit tougher to classify with a direct counter, while an Immortal may have it's shields countered by a Ghosts EMP in a straight up fight an even supply of immortals would beat an even supply of ghosts and while marines do counter them you'd never really have many in a late game army as once colossi production is a go you don't really go back to immortals. Likewise I wouldn't know what to put up against a Sentry, sure you may have some late game for forcefields and guardian shield so as it's support... maybe pit it against a medivac? Again though since the main late game gas dump is high templar then it's not entirely relevant.
So, as this shows, although there are some discrepancies between a unit and it's direct counters I do not believe that overall a Terran 200/200 max is "cheaper" unless you add all those things up above in such a way one maxed army costs far more mins / less gas or vice versa and then argue that X gas is worth Y minerals.
You can further get in to arguments that everything a Protoss makes is from a gateway, which costs them 150 minerals and provides them with 2 supply at a time while for a Terran to get 2 supply they'll need either 300 mins, 200/50 or 150/25.
as an aside from that little essay up there I'd also love to point out another interesting point on http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allAlong with (assuming you exclude Random) Terran being the most under represented race choice from Grandmaster down to Silver it's also interesting to notice that Terran has the lowest average points in every league. This is some awesome hollywood accounting you've done. Everyone will tell you gas is the limiting factor. maruaders costing 25 less gas is substantial for a start. you get 2 maruaders per stalker. that's 4s for every 2s. you get 3 ghosts for every 2 HT and 3 ghosts per archon! How many ghosts do you need? Note that's 6 supply to 4. we'll call sentries and medivacs an even trade. 200 for the colossus and 75 for a viking. so yes, 1 colossus for the first 3 vikings but after that you need less vikings. Show nested quote +To 3-shot colossus, therefore, you need 5 Vikings.
To 2-shot them, you need 7 Vikings.
To 1-shot them, you need 14. Honestly I wouldn't bother with vikings for just 1 colossus. get more marauders. get 5 vikings for 2 colossus 400 / 375 and 7 vikings for 3 (600 / 525) marines and zealots are free! (ie mineral dump) oh wow, i just noticed the 'ghosts upgrades cost more' and looked up the ghost acadamy. 150/50. Really? it's 150/200 for the templar archieves. If you can't see how terran will max faster looking at the way these costs are staggered ... then i'm staggered 
Well I was just basing my suggestions off of coL.Drewbie who wrote a guide on his approach to TvX match ups and probably knows a bit more than both of us about TvP. As for the use of... Hollywood accouting I'd just say that you make some comments there which are only relevant before a 200/200 max occurs. I can't really think of one Protoss maxed deathball which has had only one Colossus in it if we're talking about the first max each player was able to obtain, next I could mention assuming both T and P go for similar expansion timings then the fact by three bases three MULEs are worth 12 probes means that Protoss will have less army supply in a 200 deathball if they were keeping up with T economy, approximately 12 army less... Obviously this isn't hard to do since chrono means P can create workers in two thirds the time T can so I find it pretty hard to believe P cannot max out as fast as T and as cost effectively given that they only need say... 123 army supply to the 135 of T assuming equal income.
|
On December 15 2011 16:42 syllabic wrote:
Terran is by far the most difficult race to play in upper levels of the ladder. Weaker lategame compared to either other race, and extremely demanding mechanical and multitasking requirements.
When you aren't able to win regularly anymore by simply outmacroing your opponent, terrans weakness is pretty evident. Getting to lategame as terran you can't really push anymore against either other race and you basically just wait to die.
The problem is the A LOT of Terran who goes MMMG is way to passive, so when the protoss reach 200/200 theres nothing they can do. Just like a linblingmuta cant stay passive against an meching Terran.
What Terran should do is constantly harass/drop/snipe off the protss so when he finaly reach 200/200 of 3 bases Terran is on 5 and will just overwhelm the Protoss.
I play a lot of games where the Terran just drops one, kill a couple of probes and then never drops again. A colussus army is slow and immobile and that should be used by the Terran, by killing tech/economy etc.
Im a master protoss on EU for reference.
|
On December 15 2011 16:58 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:42 syllabic wrote:
Terran is by far the most difficult race to play in upper levels of the ladder. Weaker lategame compared to either other race, and extremely demanding mechanical and multitasking requirements.
When you aren't able to win regularly anymore by simply outmacroing your opponent, terrans weakness is pretty evident. Getting to lategame as terran you can't really push anymore against either other race and you basically just wait to die. I play a lot of games where the Terran just drops one, kill a couple of probes and then never drops again. A colussus army is slow and immobile and that should be used by the Terran, by killing tech/economy etc.
Im a master protoss on EU for reference.
are you serious dude? Protoss have a VERY mobile army + you can warp in anywhere in your bases to stop harass..
|
|
|
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.
He's switching to Zerg season 5.
Unless your friend is in slayers, theres a limit to how far this "abuse" can even go. Anyway, if he is just trying to abuse and not trying to improve, you can make the same argument for 4 gating..
|
On December 15 2011 17:00 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:58 aderum wrote:On December 15 2011 16:42 syllabic wrote:
Terran is by far the most difficult race to play in upper levels of the ladder. Weaker lategame compared to either other race, and extremely demanding mechanical and multitasking requirements.
When you aren't able to win regularly anymore by simply outmacroing your opponent, terrans weakness is pretty evident. Getting to lategame as terran you can't really push anymore against either other race and you basically just wait to die. I play a lot of games where the Terran just drops one, kill a couple of probes and then never drops again. A colussus army is slow and immobile and that should be used by the Terran, by killing tech/economy etc.
Im a master protoss on EU for reference. are you serious dude? Protoss have a VERY mobile army + you can warp in anywhere in your bases to stop harass..
what? no. Stalkers are mobile, but stalkers are shit against an mmm drop in small numbers. And Im talking about droping in, sniping of a forge and the leave. rinse and repeat. It take 4 maruder about 0,5 second(roughly lol  ) to snipe of a building, and the warping in ability wont help against that. Also you have to remember that there is a CD on warp in.
|
United Arab Emirates8 Posts
I initially switched to zerg to see tvz from a zerg's point of view. I used to be pretty harsh on zerg players. Then I realized how hard it is to attack into marine tank. I kinda fell in love with zerg after that
|
I just recently switched to Terran from Protoss; was originally a zerg player (Plat Zerg -> Diamond Protoss and now matching up plat Terran)
each of my race switches was to what I perceived to be the underdog race at the time, played Zerg back when constant Idra balance whine, then infestor buff patches made it so Protoss seemed to get walked over so i did that. I just like winning as the weaker race. As a Protoss I won about 75% of my PvTs so I decided to switch again to what I saw as the weakest race and I can honestly say I am having more trouble competing with Terran than I did with either other race.
This seems to be because Terran highlights my real weakness which is poor mechanics. When I played zerg it was just macroing and surviving to the point where I could Brood infestor bane roll everything, and with Protoss it was a combination of extremely strong and dynamic army compositions along with warp-in mechanics as a safety net. With Terran I literally have not had one successful marine-tank push against a zerg player which puts me at about a 25% win rate (probably switching to mech play here). I go about 50% against both Protoss and other Terrans but most of my success comes from early game gimmicks. I've realized that my micro and multitasking is simply terrible accompanied by weak decision making. I'm hoping that by sticking to Terran for a while I will really improve these aspects of my game which would lead me to either dominate if i switch back to Zerg or Protoss or at least compete effectively with Terran and continue to climb the ladder like I used to.
TL;DR I play as the underdog which Terran seems to be at least in the Plat-Diamond level. Terran has the most intensive mechanical requirements at which I suck hard so I'm hoping to improve micro and multitasking by sticking with it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
