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nobody cares what happens in master or diamond guys or the NA server tsktsk so stop whining
your all bronze lvl to the koreans ^^
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On December 15 2011 13:02 Bd.Snake wrote:
nobody cares what happens in master or diamond guys or the NA server tsktsk so stop whining
your all bronze lvl to the koreans ^^
What does this have to do with the thread again?
On topic: I haven't been doing much PvT either (although I'm in Plat.. haven't played since S1. xD). I always found PvT the most fun matchup other than early game PvP (micro heaven).
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On December 15 2011 13:11 Tiegrr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 13:02 Bd.Snake wrote:
nobody cares what happens in master or diamond guys or the NA server tsktsk so stop whining
your all bronze lvl to the koreans ^^ What does this have to do with the thread again? On topic: I haven't been doing much PvT either (although I'm in Plat.. haven't played since S1. xD). I always found PvT the most fun matchup other than early game PvP (micro heaven).
Use that platinum brain you might figure it out :D
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On December 15 2011 12:52 Wegandi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 12:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do. Even then Protoss have a lot of great early game pressure builds / all ins. Yes, Terran have 1-1-1 and siege/stim timing, but at least Protoss isn't necessitated to cheese to have a chance. You try and play a macro game against Protoss and see how that turns for you against an equally skilled player. They'll rape your damn face off if they have the slightest clue of what they are doing. (Warp Prism harass while battle...is just too mechanically demanding for most Terran players and even those who have very good APM and multi-task) This is crap. My average APM is 81 and i'm a low plat protoss and you'd smash me. You must be playing the worst 'master' level protoss players in the world if their APM is that low OR you're not doing anything to pressure them at all. Their APM would be higher if you banshee harass for example cause they warp in stalkers, move units and probes, chase with obs, they blink to snipe them off and so on. If they are just sitting there on 3 bases and macro'ing to their hearts content, WTF are you doing? Why are you even expecting to win? Do you ask them in chat if they are ready to have a big fight by the xal'naga tower in the middle of the map too? 'Are you ready? I just finished my 3/3 infantry. Oh, need another few mintues to get 2 more colossus and shield upgrade to finish. NP bro! Battle at 22 minues!' If you have 20 - 30 rax and they can do a warp in after an engagement and break into your base and kill your production before your first round of units come out ... oh, hang on that won't work. If they are warping in during the engagement they are not at 200/200. with 60 supply tied up in probes, at least 20 set aside to warp in zealots in your main (and even then it's only 10 zealots) some more in oberservers and the warp prism their main army strength is what, 100 supply MAX? And your 140 supply, fully upgraded MMMGV can't wint he fight? Sounds like YOU need to work on your engements or they have fucking great positioning and ability to control their army WHILE warping in to your main. Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. If i'm a protoss and i lose my whole fucking army in the middle of the map and you have 50 supply of MMMG left guess what, I'm fucked. Even IF my 10 zealots in your main are killing your rax, your mining bases are fine, your rax can fly and you have an army in the middle which can now crush my base. You're losing the main engagement and blaming it on other shit. Terran early game is a hell of a lot safer and more stable than protoss early game. Just being able build your 2nd orbital in your base and lift it if they do a 1 base play ensures that. Scouting terran builds is a nightmare since they all look the same initially. Rax, factory, starport means MMM or banshee or hellion drops, or 1-1-1 and with depots all scouting is denied until an obs can get in, and when it does you 'know' the robo timing, scv scout the natural, scan for robo den ETC. You know all this shit. You're leagues higher than me. If the Protoss player is worth half their salt, unless you are doing an all-in it's quite easy to stave off early pressure until you get your stim timing which is around 9min at the earliest, not to mention you can FF the ramp, so not sure how you are losing to early pressure especially when stalkers with proper micro can destroy so many marines. I put on all sorts of pressure plays vs Protoss, but you know what, that isn't supposed to win you the game. It's a tactic to ensure you gain either a slight army advantage, or an economic advantage (and ideally both), but since Protoss can defend so easily with Warp-Ins and their superior unit compositions / faster upgrades, you really have to deal a significant amount of early damage to have a chance coming into the later stages of the game. If you use Banshees it means you are significantly behind the Protoss in economy since most Protoss these days go 1Gate FE or 3Gate FE > Robo, and then there are all the 1 base all ins like VRs @ 6:15, Immortal All ins @ 8-9 mins, 1 base Colo push with 2 Colo + range @ 9:40, etc. etc. Generally you know what the Protoss is going to do by 3:55 because that is when they usually get the 2nd gas, but you aren't ever sure, and using a scan so early...isn't generally a good idea because the MULE is so important. You have no idea. You do not need 80APM as Protoss. Most master Protoss players do not even have 65EAPM (use SC2gears). Their army require very little if any micro in macro games and its generally in the early stages of the game where Protoss have to micro a lot more, and if they are any good Stalkers can really severely cripple your early game because they outrange marines and can pick off lone marauders pretty well. I watched Oz destroy aLive this morning with 2 stalkers. Of course, aLive didn't play optimally, because if Protoss pressure early with Stalker you generally need a bunker, or more production facilities and good mind game micro with marines. Terran have a few good early timings to take advantage of in the early-mid game. Before Colo / HT are able to be fielded properly / as stim / shields are done / first medivacs / +1/+1 / etc., but normally, they aren't meant to win you the game (and against equally skilled player you really shouldn't). 7 Gate 2-base all ins are also quite difficult to hold. So Protoss have as many early game / mid - game pressures and all ins for Terran to deal with also that require different answers for each one. The problem with TvP isn't the early or mid game, where I feel it is generally balanced to a large extent. It's when the game gets past the 12-14 minute mark. You shouldn't have to be ahead either economically, or militarily to say you have a shot at winning. If you are even with the Protoss @ 14min, you are in some very deep shit. That doesn't sound all too balanced to me. I'm not one to cheese much if at all, but I've started to rely on cheesing more and more in the MU because Protoss simply roll face over Terran armies in the macro / late games. Archons / Chargelot +3+3 are so damn difficult to kill efficiently, when they have HT storming and Colo beaming their lasers behind them with little to no micro effort. A Terran late game army can be completely decimated within a second or two. Even with 12-14 Vikings it still takes 4-5 seconds to wipe out 4-5 +3 armor Colossus, meanwhile you also have to stutter step, EMP/Snipe, Macro while stutter stepping (heaven forbid Archons get a few shots off), and make sure to micro your Vikings away from Stalkers so you can actually kill a few of their Colossus. Ask most decently skilled / ranked Terrans and they'll tell you the same thing. Even if you are ahead economically in late game you can EASILY lose the game in one engagement with the deathball. You simply cannot remax efficiently, and as fast as needed to stop Protoss from stomping into your facilities, and killing your units coming from your production facilities. With 20 rax you are still looking at three to four cycles before you remax, whereas Protoss from 30 gateways can remax in one to two because they are so goddamn efficient late game. They have Archon Splash, Colo splash, and HT splash, plus the fact that zealot with charge always do damage even with stutter step (I do not like that change Blizz made...). What splash do Terrans have? EMP. You know how hard it is to get off good EMPs, Macro, Stutter Step, etc.? Decent Protoss' keep their HT in the back and guarded / spread. It doesn't take much APM to do this. Not to mention most P keep an obs or two with their deathballs to stop cloaked ghosts. So hard to drop good Protosses who have good obs uses. They see drops coming from a mile away / warp-in. I wouldn't have a problem with the MU if Protoss required as much mechanically as Terran did. It simply baffles why people argue one race should be more mechanically demanding than another to play on an even footing. Yes, I do need to work on late-game TvP engagements. All Terrans do. You know why? Because its so damn difficult to even come out on an even footing. Protoss have too much splash too easily used compared to Terran. Colo + HT + Archon/Chargelot. You have to be god to micro your MMMVG to come out ahead against Protoss late game. The same cannot be said for Protoss. Is it too much I ask that Blizzard either make Protoss units require more micro / race be more mechanically demanding / on par with Terran? Try playing with 80EAPM as Terran against Protoss with 80EAPM. You have no idea what it takes to play Terran. Until you do you shouldn't make stupid statements like: Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines.
Thankyou!
Finally someone can lay out clearly, in a no BS manner what the problem is.
Correct me if i'm wrong but the gist seems to be:
MMM requires too much of your, i guess attention bank, to take advantage of your special abilities or positioning. Like, 75% of your attention is spent moving your bioball while 10% is queuing up reinforcements leaving 15% for EMP / viking and control while protoss has 30% worrying about keeping their zealots from either getting in the way of range units or getting too far ahead of the deathball and dieing, 20% reinforcing (yes, taking your eyes off the fight to do a warp in is harder than tapping your production facilities and hitting a and d) leaving 50% for colossus control and HT movment/storms. (obviously i'm making the % up to get the idea accross)
Does this sound like a fair statement?
The flip of this coin is that the protoss 200 supply army is worth a LOT more resources thant he terran army so in a way it 'should' be better at this point. Also fair?
Finally if you lose the big engagement and you haven't done enough damage your reinforcements take too long to get on the field so you're screwed at this point.
Couple of questions I'd love to know answers to if you have the time to answer:
for how long has P been better in the end game? Do you think it's the EMP nerf or metagame shift or has the protoss composition changed (same units, different ratios)?
Your army is cheaper, you should hit max first if you're economically even, so why are you screwed if you're 'economically even at 14 minutes' ? Especially since your army is min heavy and mules help a lot with that.
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I as a terran dont even play SC2 anymore lol
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On December 15 2011 13:15 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 12:52 Wegandi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 12:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do. Even then Protoss have a lot of great early game pressure builds / all ins. Yes, Terran have 1-1-1 and siege/stim timing, but at least Protoss isn't necessitated to cheese to have a chance. You try and play a macro game against Protoss and see how that turns for you against an equally skilled player. They'll rape your damn face off if they have the slightest clue of what they are doing. (Warp Prism harass while battle...is just too mechanically demanding for most Terran players and even those who have very good APM and multi-task) This is crap. My average APM is 81 and i'm a low plat protoss and you'd smash me. You must be playing the worst 'master' level protoss players in the world if their APM is that low OR you're not doing anything to pressure them at all. Their APM would be higher if you banshee harass for example cause they warp in stalkers, move units and probes, chase with obs, they blink to snipe them off and so on. If they are just sitting there on 3 bases and macro'ing to their hearts content, WTF are you doing? Why are you even expecting to win? Do you ask them in chat if they are ready to have a big fight by the xal'naga tower in the middle of the map too? 'Are you ready? I just finished my 3/3 infantry. Oh, need another few mintues to get 2 more colossus and shield upgrade to finish. NP bro! Battle at 22 minues!' If you have 20 - 30 rax and they can do a warp in after an engagement and break into your base and kill your production before your first round of units come out ... oh, hang on that won't work. If they are warping in during the engagement they are not at 200/200. with 60 supply tied up in probes, at least 20 set aside to warp in zealots in your main (and even then it's only 10 zealots) some more in oberservers and the warp prism their main army strength is what, 100 supply MAX? And your 140 supply, fully upgraded MMMGV can't wint he fight? Sounds like YOU need to work on your engements or they have fucking great positioning and ability to control their army WHILE warping in to your main. Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. If i'm a protoss and i lose my whole fucking army in the middle of the map and you have 50 supply of MMMG left guess what, I'm fucked. Even IF my 10 zealots in your main are killing your rax, your mining bases are fine, your rax can fly and you have an army in the middle which can now crush my base. You're losing the main engagement and blaming it on other shit. Terran early game is a hell of a lot safer and more stable than protoss early game. Just being able build your 2nd orbital in your base and lift it if they do a 1 base play ensures that. Scouting terran builds is a nightmare since they all look the same initially. Rax, factory, starport means MMM or banshee or hellion drops, or 1-1-1 and with depots all scouting is denied until an obs can get in, and when it does you 'know' the robo timing, scv scout the natural, scan for robo den ETC. You know all this shit. You're leagues higher than me. If the Protoss player is worth half their salt, unless you are doing an all-in it's quite easy to stave off early pressure until you get your stim timing which is around 9min at the earliest, not to mention you can FF the ramp, so not sure how you are losing to early pressure especially when stalkers with proper micro can destroy so many marines. I put on all sorts of pressure plays vs Protoss, but you know what, that isn't supposed to win you the game. It's a tactic to ensure you gain either a slight army advantage, or an economic advantage (and ideally both), but since Protoss can defend so easily with Warp-Ins and their superior unit compositions / faster upgrades, you really have to deal a significant amount of early damage to have a chance coming into the later stages of the game. If you use Banshees it means you are significantly behind the Protoss in economy since most Protoss these days go 1Gate FE or 3Gate FE > Robo, and then there are all the 1 base all ins like VRs @ 6:15, Immortal All ins @ 8-9 mins, 1 base Colo push with 2 Colo + range @ 9:40, etc. etc. Generally you know what the Protoss is going to do by 3:55 because that is when they usually get the 2nd gas, but you aren't ever sure, and using a scan so early...isn't generally a good idea because the MULE is so important. You have no idea. You do not need 80APM as Protoss. Most master Protoss players do not even have 65EAPM (use SC2gears). Their army require very little if any micro in macro games and its generally in the early stages of the game where Protoss have to micro a lot more, and if they are any good Stalkers can really severely cripple your early game because they outrange marines and can pick off lone marauders pretty well. I watched Oz destroy aLive this morning with 2 stalkers. Of course, aLive didn't play optimally, because if Protoss pressure early with Stalker you generally need a bunker, or more production facilities and good mind game micro with marines. Terran have a few good early timings to take advantage of in the early-mid game. Before Colo / HT are able to be fielded properly / as stim / shields are done / first medivacs / +1/+1 / etc., but normally, they aren't meant to win you the game (and against equally skilled player you really shouldn't). 7 Gate 2-base all ins are also quite difficult to hold. So Protoss have as many early game / mid - game pressures and all ins for Terran to deal with also that require different answers for each one. The problem with TvP isn't the early or mid game, where I feel it is generally balanced to a large extent. It's when the game gets past the 12-14 minute mark. You shouldn't have to be ahead either economically, or militarily to say you have a shot at winning. If you are even with the Protoss @ 14min, you are in some very deep shit. That doesn't sound all too balanced to me. I'm not one to cheese much if at all, but I've started to rely on cheesing more and more in the MU because Protoss simply roll face over Terran armies in the macro / late games. Archons / Chargelot +3+3 are so damn difficult to kill efficiently, when they have HT storming and Colo beaming their lasers behind them with little to no micro effort. A Terran late game army can be completely decimated within a second or two. Even with 12-14 Vikings it still takes 4-5 seconds to wipe out 4-5 +3 armor Colossus, meanwhile you also have to stutter step, EMP/Snipe, Macro while stutter stepping (heaven forbid Archons get a few shots off), and make sure to micro your Vikings away from Stalkers so you can actually kill a few of their Colossus. Ask most decently skilled / ranked Terrans and they'll tell you the same thing. Even if you are ahead economically in late game you can EASILY lose the game in one engagement with the deathball. You simply cannot remax efficiently, and as fast as needed to stop Protoss from stomping into your facilities, and killing your units coming from your production facilities. With 20 rax you are still looking at three to four cycles before you remax, whereas Protoss from 30 gateways can remax in one to two because they are so goddamn efficient late game. They have Archon Splash, Colo splash, and HT splash, plus the fact that zealot with charge always do damage even with stutter step (I do not like that change Blizz made...). What splash do Terrans have? EMP. You know how hard it is to get off good EMPs, Macro, Stutter Step, etc.? Decent Protoss' keep their HT in the back and guarded / spread. It doesn't take much APM to do this. Not to mention most P keep an obs or two with their deathballs to stop cloaked ghosts. So hard to drop good Protosses who have good obs uses. They see drops coming from a mile away / warp-in. I wouldn't have a problem with the MU if Protoss required as much mechanically as Terran did. It simply baffles why people argue one race should be more mechanically demanding than another to play on an even footing. Yes, I do need to work on late-game TvP engagements. All Terrans do. You know why? Because its so damn difficult to even come out on an even footing. Protoss have too much splash too easily used compared to Terran. Colo + HT + Archon/Chargelot. You have to be god to micro your MMMVG to come out ahead against Protoss late game. The same cannot be said for Protoss. Is it too much I ask that Blizzard either make Protoss units require more micro / race be more mechanically demanding / on par with Terran? Try playing with 80EAPM as Terran against Protoss with 80EAPM. You have no idea what it takes to play Terran. Until you do you shouldn't make stupid statements like: Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. Couple of questions I'd love to know answers to if you have the time to answer: for how long has P been better in the end game? Do you think it's the EMP nerf or metagame shift or has the protoss composition changed (same units, different ratios)? Your army is cheaper, you should hit max first if you're economically even, so why are you screwed if you're 'economically even at 14 minutes' ? Especially since your army is min heavy and mules help a lot with that.
1. Protoss has always been better than Terran in the end-game. The reason why it sort of evened out for a while was because the Koreans showed us how to use Ghosts properly. This arguably made the late-game relatively balanced in TvP, as long as you were able to micro your MMMVG well. Then Blizzard decided to nerf EMP radius by 44% (i think?). For players like me (I'm high masters terran) it was already difficult to micro MMMVG with using ghosts, and this nerf broke it completely. It's already difficult to survive against zealot/archon/Colossus because zealots are ridiculously hard to kill and Colossus splash, and then you add on the fact that if you don't hit EVERY HT with EMP you WILL lose no matter what.
2. If you're economically even with the Protoss by that point, that means he will always win the engagement unless he seriously fucks up, and even if you come out about even in the engagement, he can respawn his army much faster than you, because of warpgates. The only real way to win TvP past about 15 minutes is to get a really lucky one-sided engagement where you overwhelmingly win as Terran, so you have enough units to finish him off and win.
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On December 15 2011 13:13 Bd.Snake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 13:11 Tiegrr wrote:On December 15 2011 13:02 Bd.Snake wrote:
nobody cares what happens in master or diamond guys or the NA server tsktsk so stop whining
your all bronze lvl to the koreans ^^ What does this have to do with the thread again? On topic: I haven't been doing much PvT either (although I'm in Plat.. haven't played since S1. xD). I always found PvT the most fun matchup other than early game PvP (micro heaven). Use that platinum brain you might figure it out :D
You can't be serious can you?
But, I just think at particular levels certain races seem to be better at others because players in the lower leagues lack the mechanical skill to overcome seemingly overpowering strats.
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I got higher on the ladder playing Protoss (as my off race) than I got playing Terran as a main race 
I failed miserably as zerg lol.
I'm by no means an expert but to me it feels the game is balanced around Code-S GSL level (which it should be) and because of the mechanical requirements of Terran as a race, it suffers in the lower leagues. A lot of the best BW pros that have switched over to SC2 have gone Terran due to the mechanical demands of the race and have been ridiculously successful with the race. As a result Blizzard nerfs the race, and non-pro players suffer because of it.
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Anyone ever heard the story of Google?
Nothing against him personally
He was a top 50 GM protoss (might still be GM I'm not sure) last season. He had something like 80 apm (total, not eapm). He couldn't really harass/control his scouting probe and macro at the same time because "it takes too much apm".
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On December 14 2011 10:24 Plansix wrote:
Terran is very abusive at gold and below. Terran really rewards staying on one base for longer than the other two races and this can mean players get a lot of wins without ever expanding. I saw a lot of players getting away with stim timing attacks and stupid builds like 2 port banshee for easy, 1 base wins. I think a lot of these players hit a wall when those no longer work, but they haven't learned any other skills beyond abusing those builds. The terrans that do make it to diamond and beyond do so through more "solid" play that has a longer life. It is sort of like a protoss player who only 4 gates in every game. You hit a wall and likely give up at that point. Zerg and protoss have "fewer" builds that don't require you to expand and slowly learn that more bases is better.
haha why are you complaining about your opponent going 1 base? who cares if these Terran stay on 1 base, you just out macro them. puts a big grin on my face when see my opponent turtling on 1 base. the maps are no longer small, like they used to be, so I don't see what the problem is.
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On December 15 2011 13:39 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 13:15 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 12:52 Wegandi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 12:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do. Even then Protoss have a lot of great early game pressure builds / all ins. Yes, Terran have 1-1-1 and siege/stim timing, but at least Protoss isn't necessitated to cheese to have a chance. You try and play a macro game against Protoss and see how that turns for you against an equally skilled player. They'll rape your damn face off if they have the slightest clue of what they are doing. (Warp Prism harass while battle...is just too mechanically demanding for most Terran players and even those who have very good APM and multi-task) This is crap. My average APM is 81 and i'm a low plat protoss and you'd smash me. You must be playing the worst 'master' level protoss players in the world if their APM is that low OR you're not doing anything to pressure them at all. Their APM would be higher if you banshee harass for example cause they warp in stalkers, move units and probes, chase with obs, they blink to snipe them off and so on. If they are just sitting there on 3 bases and macro'ing to their hearts content, WTF are you doing? Why are you even expecting to win? Do you ask them in chat if they are ready to have a big fight by the xal'naga tower in the middle of the map too? 'Are you ready? I just finished my 3/3 infantry. Oh, need another few mintues to get 2 more colossus and shield upgrade to finish. NP bro! Battle at 22 minues!' If you have 20 - 30 rax and they can do a warp in after an engagement and break into your base and kill your production before your first round of units come out ... oh, hang on that won't work. If they are warping in during the engagement they are not at 200/200. with 60 supply tied up in probes, at least 20 set aside to warp in zealots in your main (and even then it's only 10 zealots) some more in oberservers and the warp prism their main army strength is what, 100 supply MAX? And your 140 supply, fully upgraded MMMGV can't wint he fight? Sounds like YOU need to work on your engements or they have fucking great positioning and ability to control their army WHILE warping in to your main. Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. If i'm a protoss and i lose my whole fucking army in the middle of the map and you have 50 supply of MMMG left guess what, I'm fucked. Even IF my 10 zealots in your main are killing your rax, your mining bases are fine, your rax can fly and you have an army in the middle which can now crush my base. You're losing the main engagement and blaming it on other shit. Terran early game is a hell of a lot safer and more stable than protoss early game. Just being able build your 2nd orbital in your base and lift it if they do a 1 base play ensures that. Scouting terran builds is a nightmare since they all look the same initially. Rax, factory, starport means MMM or banshee or hellion drops, or 1-1-1 and with depots all scouting is denied until an obs can get in, and when it does you 'know' the robo timing, scv scout the natural, scan for robo den ETC. You know all this shit. You're leagues higher than me. If the Protoss player is worth half their salt, unless you are doing an all-in it's quite easy to stave off early pressure until you get your stim timing which is around 9min at the earliest, not to mention you can FF the ramp, so not sure how you are losing to early pressure especially when stalkers with proper micro can destroy so many marines. I put on all sorts of pressure plays vs Protoss, but you know what, that isn't supposed to win you the game. It's a tactic to ensure you gain either a slight army advantage, or an economic advantage (and ideally both), but since Protoss can defend so easily with Warp-Ins and their superior unit compositions / faster upgrades, you really have to deal a significant amount of early damage to have a chance coming into the later stages of the game. If you use Banshees it means you are significantly behind the Protoss in economy since most Protoss these days go 1Gate FE or 3Gate FE > Robo, and then there are all the 1 base all ins like VRs @ 6:15, Immortal All ins @ 8-9 mins, 1 base Colo push with 2 Colo + range @ 9:40, etc. etc. Generally you know what the Protoss is going to do by 3:55 because that is when they usually get the 2nd gas, but you aren't ever sure, and using a scan so early...isn't generally a good idea because the MULE is so important. You have no idea. You do not need 80APM as Protoss. Most master Protoss players do not even have 65EAPM (use SC2gears). Their army require very little if any micro in macro games and its generally in the early stages of the game where Protoss have to micro a lot more, and if they are any good Stalkers can really severely cripple your early game because they outrange marines and can pick off lone marauders pretty well. I watched Oz destroy aLive this morning with 2 stalkers. Of course, aLive didn't play optimally, because if Protoss pressure early with Stalker you generally need a bunker, or more production facilities and good mind game micro with marines. Terran have a few good early timings to take advantage of in the early-mid game. Before Colo / HT are able to be fielded properly / as stim / shields are done / first medivacs / +1/+1 / etc., but normally, they aren't meant to win you the game (and against equally skilled player you really shouldn't). 7 Gate 2-base all ins are also quite difficult to hold. So Protoss have as many early game / mid - game pressures and all ins for Terran to deal with also that require different answers for each one. The problem with TvP isn't the early or mid game, where I feel it is generally balanced to a large extent. It's when the game gets past the 12-14 minute mark. You shouldn't have to be ahead either economically, or militarily to say you have a shot at winning. If you are even with the Protoss @ 14min, you are in some very deep shit. That doesn't sound all too balanced to me. I'm not one to cheese much if at all, but I've started to rely on cheesing more and more in the MU because Protoss simply roll face over Terran armies in the macro / late games. Archons / Chargelot +3+3 are so damn difficult to kill efficiently, when they have HT storming and Colo beaming their lasers behind them with little to no micro effort. A Terran late game army can be completely decimated within a second or two. Even with 12-14 Vikings it still takes 4-5 seconds to wipe out 4-5 +3 armor Colossus, meanwhile you also have to stutter step, EMP/Snipe, Macro while stutter stepping (heaven forbid Archons get a few shots off), and make sure to micro your Vikings away from Stalkers so you can actually kill a few of their Colossus. Ask most decently skilled / ranked Terrans and they'll tell you the same thing. Even if you are ahead economically in late game you can EASILY lose the game in one engagement with the deathball. You simply cannot remax efficiently, and as fast as needed to stop Protoss from stomping into your facilities, and killing your units coming from your production facilities. With 20 rax you are still looking at three to four cycles before you remax, whereas Protoss from 30 gateways can remax in one to two because they are so goddamn efficient late game. They have Archon Splash, Colo splash, and HT splash, plus the fact that zealot with charge always do damage even with stutter step (I do not like that change Blizz made...). What splash do Terrans have? EMP. You know how hard it is to get off good EMPs, Macro, Stutter Step, etc.? Decent Protoss' keep their HT in the back and guarded / spread. It doesn't take much APM to do this. Not to mention most P keep an obs or two with their deathballs to stop cloaked ghosts. So hard to drop good Protosses who have good obs uses. They see drops coming from a mile away / warp-in. I wouldn't have a problem with the MU if Protoss required as much mechanically as Terran did. It simply baffles why people argue one race should be more mechanically demanding than another to play on an even footing. Yes, I do need to work on late-game TvP engagements. All Terrans do. You know why? Because its so damn difficult to even come out on an even footing. Protoss have too much splash too easily used compared to Terran. Colo + HT + Archon/Chargelot. You have to be god to micro your MMMVG to come out ahead against Protoss late game. The same cannot be said for Protoss. Is it too much I ask that Blizzard either make Protoss units require more micro / race be more mechanically demanding / on par with Terran? Try playing with 80EAPM as Terran against Protoss with 80EAPM. You have no idea what it takes to play Terran. Until you do you shouldn't make stupid statements like: Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. Couple of questions I'd love to know answers to if you have the time to answer: for how long has P been better in the end game? Do you think it's the EMP nerf or metagame shift or has the protoss composition changed (same units, different ratios)? Your army is cheaper, you should hit max first if you're economically even, so why are you screwed if you're 'economically even at 14 minutes' ? Especially since your army is min heavy and mules help a lot with that. 1. Protoss has always been better than Terran in the end-game. The reason why it sort of evened out for a while was because the Koreans showed us how to use Ghosts properly. This arguably made the late-game relatively balanced in TvP, as long as you were able to micro your MMMVG well. Then Blizzard decided to nerf EMP radius by 44% (i think?). For players like me (I'm high masters terran) it was already difficult to micro MMMVG with using ghosts, and this nerf broke it completely. It's already difficult to survive against zealot/archon/Colossus because zealots are ridiculously hard to kill and Colossus splash, and then you add on the fact that if you don't hit EVERY HT with EMP you WILL lose no matter what. 2. If you're economically even with the Protoss, that means he will always win the engagement unless he seriously fucks up, and even if you come out about even in the engagement, he can respawn his army much faster than you, because of warpgates. The only real way to win TvP past about 15 minutes is to get a really lucky one-sided engagement where you overwhelmingly win as Terran, so you have enough units to finish him off and win.
1. EMP nerf was radius 2 to radius 1.5 (the same as storm) EMP still out ranges storm (and colosuss incidentially) by 1.
2. Correct me if i'm wrong but if you're economically even with the protoss shouldn't you be trading armies since while they can reinforce gateway units 'faster' they can't tech, expand, upgrade and replace army. Terran isn't teching as far (no true tier 3 tech vs 2 different tier 3 tech) so shouldn't terran be hitting that 'timing' where protoss either has very little of both tech or some of one? If you're unable to do any real damage at a point when you have all your required tech and more army i'm having trouble with you saying you're a better player.
The games I watch terran win they get their production happening, the MMM ups and ghosts or vikings depending on if protoss are getting colossus or HT first, and then start killing shit. And if you're being that agressive you can expand easier to make up for some loss of effciency.
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On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. Show nested quote +The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm.
The second hilarious thing is that your counter arguement helps prove the point that nearly every single Terran here is trying to convey....
Last time I checked your average SC2 player Bronze-Master doesn't live in a sponsored team house with 8 hours a day of training.
Your right while T has the hardest time they also get the most reward out of the mechanics. Which explains the Korean Dominance. But also explains what everyone is complaining about in this thread. In the lower leagues Bronze-Master our race has to high of a skill cap to where we cant reap the rewards but are instead left with the challenge.
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Yeah, the Terran presence has definitely been disappearing... I've been playing one TvT a day out of 5-10 ladder games; all the Terrans are gone it seems, and in my last league I was one of three Terran players in the top 25 >.<
I personally think that the high micro requirement for T draws a lot of players away - you have to micro vs any equally sized army to come out ahead unless you just hard counter them.
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I play terran on EU, and when HotS comes out I am thinking of switching to Z. I really enjoy T, but as my journey to diamond is getting near completion, I can see I am simply not good enough to play the race. I feel that with skill it is so powerful and entertaining to watch/play, that it ignites a passion within you. But I lack this skill and if I want to advance in league playI have to play 2-3 hrs a day to get better. And I MUST advance from diamond to justify me using time on sc2....
There are 2 Terrans in the top 30 in my division, me and BOBTHESCV. I wish us both luck 
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The worst is when you forget your vT builds because you rarely face Terran opponents. There's the loading screen, and there I am scrambling for my post-it note that has my TvT mech build written on it. Needless to say, I'm not spamming "select worker" when I play a Terran...too busy reading.
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I play T. Normally for threads like these, I dismiss the OP as just imagining something off of an extremely low sample size. However I've played almost 300 games this season and probably played only 50 T's. I forgot all my stats, but that seems pretty low.
Been getting owned this season
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On December 15 2011 13:15 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 12:52 Wegandi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 12:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do. Even then Protoss have a lot of great early game pressure builds / all ins. Yes, Terran have 1-1-1 and siege/stim timing, but at least Protoss isn't necessitated to cheese to have a chance. You try and play a macro game against Protoss and see how that turns for you against an equally skilled player. They'll rape your damn face off if they have the slightest clue of what they are doing. (Warp Prism harass while battle...is just too mechanically demanding for most Terran players and even those who have very good APM and multi-task) This is crap. My average APM is 81 and i'm a low plat protoss and you'd smash me. You must be playing the worst 'master' level protoss players in the world if their APM is that low OR you're not doing anything to pressure them at all. Their APM would be higher if you banshee harass for example cause they warp in stalkers, move units and probes, chase with obs, they blink to snipe them off and so on. If they are just sitting there on 3 bases and macro'ing to their hearts content, WTF are you doing? Why are you even expecting to win? Do you ask them in chat if they are ready to have a big fight by the xal'naga tower in the middle of the map too? 'Are you ready? I just finished my 3/3 infantry. Oh, need another few mintues to get 2 more colossus and shield upgrade to finish. NP bro! Battle at 22 minues!' If you have 20 - 30 rax and they can do a warp in after an engagement and break into your base and kill your production before your first round of units come out ... oh, hang on that won't work. If they are warping in during the engagement they are not at 200/200. with 60 supply tied up in probes, at least 20 set aside to warp in zealots in your main (and even then it's only 10 zealots) some more in oberservers and the warp prism their main army strength is what, 100 supply MAX? And your 140 supply, fully upgraded MMMGV can't wint he fight? Sounds like YOU need to work on your engements or they have fucking great positioning and ability to control their army WHILE warping in to your main. Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. If i'm a protoss and i lose my whole fucking army in the middle of the map and you have 50 supply of MMMG left guess what, I'm fucked. Even IF my 10 zealots in your main are killing your rax, your mining bases are fine, your rax can fly and you have an army in the middle which can now crush my base. You're losing the main engagement and blaming it on other shit. Terran early game is a hell of a lot safer and more stable than protoss early game. Just being able build your 2nd orbital in your base and lift it if they do a 1 base play ensures that. Scouting terran builds is a nightmare since they all look the same initially. Rax, factory, starport means MMM or banshee or hellion drops, or 1-1-1 and with depots all scouting is denied until an obs can get in, and when it does you 'know' the robo timing, scv scout the natural, scan for robo den ETC. You know all this shit. You're leagues higher than me. If the Protoss player is worth half their salt, unless you are doing an all-in it's quite easy to stave off early pressure until you get your stim timing which is around 9min at the earliest, not to mention you can FF the ramp, so not sure how you are losing to early pressure especially when stalkers with proper micro can destroy so many marines. I put on all sorts of pressure plays vs Protoss, but you know what, that isn't supposed to win you the game. It's a tactic to ensure you gain either a slight army advantage, or an economic advantage (and ideally both), but since Protoss can defend so easily with Warp-Ins and their superior unit compositions / faster upgrades, you really have to deal a significant amount of early damage to have a chance coming into the later stages of the game. If you use Banshees it means you are significantly behind the Protoss in economy since most Protoss these days go 1Gate FE or 3Gate FE > Robo, and then there are all the 1 base all ins like VRs @ 6:15, Immortal All ins @ 8-9 mins, 1 base Colo push with 2 Colo + range @ 9:40, etc. etc. Generally you know what the Protoss is going to do by 3:55 because that is when they usually get the 2nd gas, but you aren't ever sure, and using a scan so early...isn't generally a good idea because the MULE is so important. You have no idea. You do not need 80APM as Protoss. Most master Protoss players do not even have 65EAPM (use SC2gears). Their army require very little if any micro in macro games and its generally in the early stages of the game where Protoss have to micro a lot more, and if they are any good Stalkers can really severely cripple your early game because they outrange marines and can pick off lone marauders pretty well. I watched Oz destroy aLive this morning with 2 stalkers. Of course, aLive didn't play optimally, because if Protoss pressure early with Stalker you generally need a bunker, or more production facilities and good mind game micro with marines. Terran have a few good early timings to take advantage of in the early-mid game. Before Colo / HT are able to be fielded properly / as stim / shields are done / first medivacs / +1/+1 / etc., but normally, they aren't meant to win you the game (and against equally skilled player you really shouldn't). 7 Gate 2-base all ins are also quite difficult to hold. So Protoss have as many early game / mid - game pressures and all ins for Terran to deal with also that require different answers for each one. The problem with TvP isn't the early or mid game, where I feel it is generally balanced to a large extent. It's when the game gets past the 12-14 minute mark. You shouldn't have to be ahead either economically, or militarily to say you have a shot at winning. If you are even with the Protoss @ 14min, you are in some very deep shit. That doesn't sound all too balanced to me. I'm not one to cheese much if at all, but I've started to rely on cheesing more and more in the MU because Protoss simply roll face over Terran armies in the macro / late games. Archons / Chargelot +3+3 are so damn difficult to kill efficiently, when they have HT storming and Colo beaming their lasers behind them with little to no micro effort. A Terran late game army can be completely decimated within a second or two. Even with 12-14 Vikings it still takes 4-5 seconds to wipe out 4-5 +3 armor Colossus, meanwhile you also have to stutter step, EMP/Snipe, Macro while stutter stepping (heaven forbid Archons get a few shots off), and make sure to micro your Vikings away from Stalkers so you can actually kill a few of their Colossus. Ask most decently skilled / ranked Terrans and they'll tell you the same thing. Even if you are ahead economically in late game you can EASILY lose the game in one engagement with the deathball. You simply cannot remax efficiently, and as fast as needed to stop Protoss from stomping into your facilities, and killing your units coming from your production facilities. With 20 rax you are still looking at three to four cycles before you remax, whereas Protoss from 30 gateways can remax in one to two because they are so goddamn efficient late game. They have Archon Splash, Colo splash, and HT splash, plus the fact that zealot with charge always do damage even with stutter step (I do not like that change Blizz made...). What splash do Terrans have? EMP. You know how hard it is to get off good EMPs, Macro, Stutter Step, etc.? Decent Protoss' keep their HT in the back and guarded / spread. It doesn't take much APM to do this. Not to mention most P keep an obs or two with their deathballs to stop cloaked ghosts. So hard to drop good Protosses who have good obs uses. They see drops coming from a mile away / warp-in. I wouldn't have a problem with the MU if Protoss required as much mechanically as Terran did. It simply baffles why people argue one race should be more mechanically demanding than another to play on an even footing. Yes, I do need to work on late-game TvP engagements. All Terrans do. You know why? Because its so damn difficult to even come out on an even footing. Protoss have too much splash too easily used compared to Terran. Colo + HT + Archon/Chargelot. You have to be god to micro your MMMVG to come out ahead against Protoss late game. The same cannot be said for Protoss. Is it too much I ask that Blizzard either make Protoss units require more micro / race be more mechanically demanding / on par with Terran? Try playing with 80EAPM as Terran against Protoss with 80EAPM. You have no idea what it takes to play Terran. Until you do you shouldn't make stupid statements like: Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. Thankyou! Finally someone can lay out clearly, in a no BS manner what the problem is. Correct me if i'm wrong but the gist seems to be: MMM requires too much of your, i guess attention bank, to take advantage of your special abilities or positioning. Like, 75% of your attention is spent moving your bioball while 10% is queuing up reinforcements leaving 15% for EMP / viking and control while protoss has 30% worrying about keeping their zealots from either getting in the way of range units or getting too far ahead of the deathball and dieing, 20% reinforcing (yes, taking your eyes off the fight to do a warp in is harder than tapping your production facilities and hitting a and d) leaving 50% for colossus control and HT movment/storms. (obviously i'm making the % up to get the idea accross) Does this sound like a fair statement? The flip of this coin is that the protoss 200 supply army is worth a LOT more resources thant he terran army so in a way it 'should' be better at this point. Also fair?Finally if you lose the big engagement and you haven't done enough damage your reinforcements take too long to get on the field so you're screwed at this point. Couple of questions I'd love to know answers to if you have the time to answer: for how long has P been better in the end game? Do you think it's the EMP nerf or metagame shift or has the protoss composition changed (same units, different ratios)? Your army is cheaper, you should hit max first if you're economically even, so why are you screwed if you're 'economically even at 14 minutes' ? Especially since your army is min heavy and mules help a lot with that.
The bolded part is rubbish
+ Show Spoiler +
Zealot (2 supply) = 100 Minerals
2x Marine (2 sup.) = 100 Minerals
Stalker (2s) = 125 Mins, 50 Gas
Marauder (2s) = 100 Mins, 25 Gas
You're going to want some medivacs with that lot so for every 8 supply add 1 Medivac, 2s @ 100/100
Also the total upgrades for 3/3 M/M with stim, shield, concussive is 1300/1300 while for 3/3 Blink Stalker/Chargelot it's 1250/1250
Colossus (6s) = 300/200
3x Vikings (6s) = 450/225
Yeah you will want Extended Lance so add 200/200 divided by the number of Colossus in the ball
High Templar (2s) = 50/150
Ghost (2s) = 200/100
Archon (4s) = 100/300, 175/275 or 250/250
2x Ghost (4s) = 400/200
200/200 for psi storm while it's 250/250 for both ghost upgrades (100/100 if you don't want to snipe obs and carpet emp while cloaked)
Some things are a bit tougher to classify with a direct counter, while an Immortal may have it's shields countered by a Ghosts EMP in a straight up fight an even supply of immortals would beat an even supply of ghosts and while marines do counter them you'd never really have many in a late game army as once colossi production is a go you don't really go back to immortals. Likewise I wouldn't know what to put up against a Sentry, sure you may have some late game for forcefields and guardian shield so as it's support... maybe pit it against a medivac? Again though since the main late game gas dump is high templar then it's not entirely relevant.
So, as this shows, although there are some discrepancies between a unit and it's direct counters I do not believe that overall a Terran 200/200 max is "cheaper" unless you add all those things up above in such a way one maxed army costs far more mins / less gas or vice versa and then argue that X gas is worth Y minerals.
You can further get in to arguments that everything a Protoss makes is from a gateway, which costs them 150 minerals and provides them with 2 supply at a time while for a Terran to get 2 supply they'll need either 300 mins, 200/50 or 150/25.
as an aside from that little essay up there I'd also love to point out another interesting point on http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Along with (assuming you exclude Random) Terran being the most under represented race choice from Grandmaster down to Silver it's also interesting to notice that Terran has the lowest average points in every league.
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ive gotten 2 tvts in ~30 games.
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I often wonder what percentage of "terran wins" in the various win-rate graphs were from 1basing. If we knew this figure we could see if the terrans disappearing correlates with the nicer macro maps and nerfs to various early game strategies. Or not.
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On December 15 2011 14:16 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. The second hilarious thing is that your counter arguement helps prove the point that nearly every single Terran here is trying to convey.... Last time I checked your average SC2 player Bronze-Master doesn't live in a sponsored team house with 8 hours a day of training. Your right while T has the hardest time they also get the most reward out of the mechanics. Which explains the Korean Dominance. But also explains what everyone is complaining about in this thread. In the lower leagues Bronze-Master our race has to high of a skill cap to where we cant reap the rewards but are instead left with the challenge.
The problem isn't that the terran skill ceiling is too high, it's that everyone else's is too low (and terran's is too, really).
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EPT
