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On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. Show nested quote +The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm.
You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that?
I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do.
Even then Protoss have a lot of great early game pressure builds / all ins. Yes, Terran have 1-1-1 and siege/stim timing, but at least Protoss isn't necessitated to cheese to have a chance. You try and play a macro game against Protoss and see how that turns for you against an equally skilled player. They'll rape your damn face off if they have the slightest clue of what they are doing. (Warp Prism harass while battle...is just too mechanically demanding for most Terran players and even those who have very good APM and multi-task)
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I have played Terran since I got the game. I just find it boring at this point. There is a lot of nuance in playing T in macro and micro that after hitting a certain level I am sure people just cant comprehend or want to put time into understanding.
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they are all too busy with school...
Just kidding...
I think terran is the race that everyone understands coming out off the campaign since you didn't get to play too much toss and no zerg experiences.
TERRAN4LIFE
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I think that the way Terran plays is just a lot more different than how both Protoss and Zerg play. Zerg is for the way faster paced players, and Protoss for the slower paced players. Terran's greatest advantage is the wide array of strategies it has, but i don't think that it helps the play style as much. But Terran is still the most dominant race in Korea, and in the end, if people are really winning with it, then your race is still very good
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Where I'm at in master's I play just as many Terrans as I do Protoss which is rare. Zergs all day every day :/
One race will always be under represented somewhere I suppose however.
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On December 15 2011 11:33 BaconofWar wrote:
I think that the way Terran plays is just a lot more different than how both Protoss and Zerg play. Zerg is for the way faster paced players, and Protoss for the slower paced players. Terran's greatest advantage is the wide array of strategies it has, but i don't think that it helps the play style as much. But Terran is still the most dominant race in Korea, and in the end, if people are really winning with it, then your race is still very good
Where do you see people saying that terran is suddenly not good?
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Whoa whoa whoa.... Since when have protoss and zerg given a shit that there have been less terrans. All the tears you girls spew about balance, would think you would be overjoyed.... strange.
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I play random now after spending season 4 as a Zerg. I do find terran to be the most mechanically challenging but only because its seems so powerful when you are doing it right that when you are doing it wrong it really sticks out in your mind much more so than Protoss or Zerg.
Especially watching the ease with which MVP/MMA play with Terran, after playing them at much lower level, really brings the point home that if properly harnessed and understood its without the doubt strongest race.
But I think that effort is quite high, whereas for Protoss or Zerg the name of the game is survival past a certain point and then destruction of the other guy.
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I noticed that on US, I rarely played against Terrans, but on EU it's more regulary.
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I switched from Terran(playing at a high Diamond/low Masters level) because it's just REALLY hard to play a macro game with them. I was decent at TvZ because all of the Zs at my level were crap(because ZvP is a joke and ZvT is also just amove right now), but if I had played people as good as me I probably would have been terrible. I was mildly bad at TvP, because it is just pointless past a certain point. They get so much splash your army dies in seconds.
I was a better T than Z or P and yet was higher ranked as the other 2 races. They're simply straight up easier at the High Diamond/Low Masters where everyone has pretty good macro, but not great micro or engaging. Not to say they're OP, but they certainly are at my level. Similar to how P was the easiest race in BW up to C-.
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I like to play Terran because i want to avoid all these ZvZ and PvP shenanigans. Losing all your zerglings to a baneling because your micro sucks is discouraging  And Terran Mech is awesome!
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On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do. Even then Protoss have a lot of great early game pressure builds / all ins. Yes, Terran have 1-1-1 and siege/stim timing, but at least Protoss isn't necessitated to cheese to have a chance. You try and play a macro game against Protoss and see how that turns for you against an equally skilled player. They'll rape your damn face off if they have the slightest clue of what they are doing. (Warp Prism harass while battle...is just too mechanically demanding for most Terran players and even those who have very good APM and multi-task)
This is crap.
My average APM is 81 and i'm a low plat protoss and you'd smash me. You must be playing the worst 'master' level protoss players in the world if their APM is that low OR you're not doing anything to pressure them at all. Their APM would be higher if you banshee harass for example cause they warp in stalkers, move units and probes, chase with obs, they blink to snipe them off and so on. If they are just sitting there on 3 bases and macro'ing to their hearts content, WTF are you doing? Why are you even expecting to win? Do you ask them in chat if they are ready to have a big fight by the xal'naga tower in the middle of the map too? 'Are you ready? I just finished my 3/3 infantry. Oh, need another few mintues to get 2 more colossus and shield upgrade to finish. NP bro! Battle at 22 minues!'
If you have 20 - 30 rax and they can do a warp in after an engagement and break into your base and kill your production before your first round of units come out ... oh, hang on that won't work. If they are warping in during the engagement they are not at 200/200. with 60 supply tied up in probes, at least 20 set aside to warp in zealots in your main (and even then it's only 10 zealots) some more in oberservers and the warp prism their main army strength is what, 100 supply MAX? And your 140 supply, fully upgraded MMMGV can't wint he fight? Sounds like YOU need to work on your engements or they have fucking great positioning and ability to control their army WHILE warping in to your main. Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines.
If i'm a protoss and i lose my whole fucking army in the middle of the map and you have 50 supply of MMMG left guess what, I'm fucked. Even IF my 10 zealots in your main are killing your rax, your mining bases are fine, your rax can fly and you have an army in the middle which can now crush my base. You're losing the main engagement and blaming it on other shit.
Terran early game is a hell of a lot safer and more stable than protoss early game. Just being able build your 2nd orbital in your base and lift it if they do a 1 base play ensures that. Scouting terran builds is a nightmare since they all look the same initially. Rax, factory, starport means MMM or banshee or hellion drops, or 1-1-1 and with depots all scouting is denied until an obs can get in, and when it does you 'know' the robo timing, scv scout the natural, scan for robo den ETC.
You know all this shit. You're leagues higher than me.
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I know why Terrans are vanishing, to play legitimate macro games with players of other races at your equal skill level, you're almost always going to lose becuase that's the nature of the race - it provides immense benefits that matches higher skill but doesn't provide for anyone who isn't microing above their skill level (talking specifically in macro games).
Every single day of the week a terran will lose to protoss and zerg counterparts of equal skill (or even less at Masters and below) in late-game 200/200 scenarios (vs colossi/archon/chargelot and bloord/infestor). Even if you macro well it's most times not enough, with your multi-tasking (drops) the only means of keeping up with competent P/Z into the lategame.
The statistics speak for themselves, I love that Terran is hard, it's why I play it but at the same time there's nothing more disheartening than losing games where you feel you've played well simply because of the nature of the race. This is NOT a bad thing though.
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Honestly I think the main thing is HotS coming up. Lots of T and P are switching because of that. I don't know why its pulling more from T than P. I dont think balance changes were big enough to account for that.
I guess if a T hates micro, they'd be more likely to switch to Z than switch to P or stay T. Terrans are still as strong as they've ever been, but you need double the micro that other races do. Every race has its unique challenges, but I guess some people prefer the macro challenge of hitting all your injects over the micro challenge of splitting+kiting+dropping+sieging.
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I switched from Terran to Toss. Honestly, I just find Toss to be more fun and I'm actually better now that I switched!
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I've been playing Terran over a year. Staying on the diamond league every season and I feel it's so damn hard to keep macro up against Protoss or Zerg especially in the late game. I'm in the middle of the road now, switching the race or not.
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On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do.
I think using apm is a bad example because at lower levels apm depends heavily upon your unit composition. When I go mech or sky tvp my apm is around 70, but with bio it jumps up to 90. Its simple: microing 200 supply of marines will generate double the apm of 200 supply of Zealots. I agree that T requires much more unit micro than other races, but its not as simple as raw apm. Its more about using your unit micro more effectively. Splitting a marine ball into four parts requires 4x the effort of moving the entire ball as one clump, but it generates the same amount of apm.
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On December 15 2011 12:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do. Even then Protoss have a lot of great early game pressure builds / all ins. Yes, Terran have 1-1-1 and siege/stim timing, but at least Protoss isn't necessitated to cheese to have a chance. You try and play a macro game against Protoss and see how that turns for you against an equally skilled player. They'll rape your damn face off if they have the slightest clue of what they are doing. (Warp Prism harass while battle...is just too mechanically demanding for most Terran players and even those who have very good APM and multi-task) This is crap. My average APM is 81 and i'm a low plat protoss and you'd smash me. You must be playing the worst 'master' level protoss players in the world if their APM is that low OR you're not doing anything to pressure them at all. Their APM would be higher if you banshee harass for example cause they warp in stalkers, move units and probes, chase with obs, they blink to snipe them off and so on. If they are just sitting there on 3 bases and macro'ing to their hearts content, WTF are you doing? Why are you even expecting to win? Do you ask them in chat if they are ready to have a big fight by the xal'naga tower in the middle of the map too? 'Are you ready? I just finished my 3/3 infantry. Oh, need another few mintues to get 2 more colossus and shield upgrade to finish. NP bro! Battle at 22 minues!' If you have 20 - 30 rax and they can do a warp in after an engagement and break into your base and kill your production before your first round of units come out ... oh, hang on that won't work. If they are warping in during the engagement they are not at 200/200. with 60 supply tied up in probes, at least 20 set aside to warp in zealots in your main (and even then it's only 10 zealots) some more in oberservers and the warp prism their main army strength is what, 100 supply MAX? And your 140 supply, fully upgraded MMMGV can't wint he fight? Sounds like YOU need to work on your engements or they have fucking great positioning and ability to control their army WHILE warping in to your main. Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines. If i'm a protoss and i lose my whole fucking army in the middle of the map and you have 50 supply of MMMG left guess what, I'm fucked. Even IF my 10 zealots in your main are killing your rax, your mining bases are fine, your rax can fly and you have an army in the middle which can now crush my base. You're losing the main engagement and blaming it on other shit. Terran early game is a hell of a lot safer and more stable than protoss early game. Just being able build your 2nd orbital in your base and lift it if they do a 1 base play ensures that. Scouting terran builds is a nightmare since they all look the same initially. Rax, factory, starport means MMM or banshee or hellion drops, or 1-1-1 and with depots all scouting is denied until an obs can get in, and when it does you 'know' the robo timing, scv scout the natural, scan for robo den ETC. You know all this shit. You're leagues higher than me.
If the Protoss player is worth half their salt, unless you are doing an all-in it's quite easy to stave off early pressure until you get your stim timing which is around 9min at the earliest, not to mention you can FF the ramp, so not sure how you are losing to early pressure especially when stalkers with proper micro can destroy so many marines. I put on all sorts of pressure plays vs Protoss, but you know what, that isn't supposed to win you the game. It's a tactic to ensure you gain either a slight army advantage, or an economic advantage (and ideally both), but since Protoss can defend so easily with Warp-Ins and their superior unit compositions / faster upgrades, you really have to deal a significant amount of early damage to have a chance coming into the later stages of the game. If you use Banshees it means you are significantly behind the Protoss in economy since most Protoss these days go 1Gate FE or 3Gate FE > Robo, and then there are all the 1 base all ins like VRs @ 6:15, Immortal All ins @ 8-9 mins, 1 base Colo push with 2 Colo + range @ 9:40, etc. etc.
Generally you know what the Protoss is going to do by 3:55 because that is when they usually get the 2nd gas, but you aren't ever sure, and using a scan so early...isn't generally a good idea because the MULE is so important.
You have no idea. You do not need 80APM as Protoss. Most master Protoss players do not even have 65EAPM (use SC2gears). Their army require very little if any micro in macro games and its generally in the early stages of the game where Protoss have to micro a lot more, and if they are any good Stalkers can really severely cripple your early game because they outrange marines and can pick off lone marauders pretty well. I watched Oz destroy aLive this morning with 2 stalkers. Of course, aLive didn't play optimally, because if Protoss pressure early with Stalker you generally need a bunker, or more production facilities and good mind game micro with marines. Terran have a few good early timings to take advantage of in the early-mid game. Before Colo / HT are able to be fielded properly / as stim / shields are done / first medivacs / +1/+1 / etc., but normally, they aren't meant to win you the game (and against equally skilled player you really shouldn't). 7 Gate 2-base all ins are also quite difficult to hold. So Protoss have as many early game / mid - game pressures and all ins for Terran to deal with also that require different answers for each one.
The problem with TvP isn't the early or mid game, where I feel it is generally balanced to a large extent. It's when the game gets past the 12-14 minute mark. You shouldn't have to be ahead either economically, or militarily to say you have a shot at winning. If you are even with the Protoss @ 14min, you are in some very deep shit. That doesn't sound all too balanced to me. I'm not one to cheese much if at all, but I've started to rely on cheesing more and more in the MU because Protoss simply roll face over Terran armies in the macro / late games. Archons / Chargelot +3+3 are so damn difficult to kill efficiently, when they have HT storming and Colo beaming their lasers behind them with little to no micro effort. A Terran late game army can be completely decimated within a second or two. Even with 12-14 Vikings it still takes 4-5 seconds to wipe out 4-5 +3 armor Colossus, meanwhile you also have to stutter step, EMP/Snipe, Macro while stutter stepping (heaven forbid Archons get a few shots off), and make sure to micro your Vikings away from Stalkers so you can actually kill a few of their Colossus. Ask most decently skilled / ranked Terrans and they'll tell you the same thing.
Even if you are ahead economically in late game you can EASILY lose the game in one engagement with the deathball. You simply cannot remax efficiently, and as fast as needed to stop Protoss from stomping into your facilities, and killing your units coming from your production facilities. With 20 rax you are still looking at three to four cycles before you remax, whereas Protoss from 30 gateways can remax in one to two because they are so goddamn efficient late game. They have Archon Splash, Colo splash, and HT splash, plus the fact that zealot with charge always do damage even with stutter step (I do not like that change Blizz made...). What splash do Terrans have? EMP. You know how hard it is to get off good EMPs, Macro, Stutter Step, etc.? Decent Protoss' keep their HT in the back and guarded / spread. It doesn't take much APM to do this. Not to mention most P keep an obs or two with their deathballs to stop cloaked ghosts.
So hard to drop good Protosses who have good obs uses. They see drops coming from a mile away / warp-in. I wouldn't have a problem with the MU if Protoss required as much mechanically as Terran did. It simply baffles why people argue one race should be more mechanically demanding than another to play on an even footing.
Yes, I do need to work on late-game TvP engagements. All Terrans do. You know why? Because its so damn difficult to even come out on an even footing. Protoss have too much splash too easily used compared to Terran. Colo + HT + Archon/Chargelot. You have to be god to micro your MMMVG to come out ahead against Protoss late game. The same cannot be said for Protoss. Is it too much I ask that Blizzard either make Protoss units require more micro / race be more mechanically demanding / on par with Terran? Try playing with 80EAPM as Terran against Protoss with 80EAPM.
You have no idea what it takes to play Terran. Until you do you shouldn't make stupid statements like:
Who is the better player here? Oh, you are cause you have higher APM with all that clicking and queuing up marines.
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I think it's generally because of the fact that terran has such a high skill ceiling, but at the lower levels is pretty hard and somewhat unappealing to play. Another factor could be the psychological effect of the nerfs since the begging of release. I call it "psychological" mainly because despite all the direct nerfs to terran and indirect buffs to protoss and zerg, terran is still very playable and viable race, but to terrans it can be pretty disheartening having your race nerfed time after time while the protoss and zerg seem to only get better.
On a side note I noticed alot of the terrans here complaining are from Canada and the US, and from my recent experience of switching to Europe I think I can say European terrans are alot better. In NA I could beat mid-masters terrans (almost effortlessly), but in Eu I'm going somewhat even with high diamond/low master terrans.
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On December 15 2011 12:44 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:20 Wegandi wrote:On December 15 2011 11:04 Kharnage wrote:On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level: indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly? low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it. there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on... a typical example of what I mean: lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with. in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to. I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran. Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans. NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players. This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve. The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago. Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro. Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues. And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm. You going to argue that Protoss and Zerg are as mechanically demanding as Terran is? I have no problem with the skill ceiling for Terran, the problem is the disparity between the races. If you are going to make Terran more mechanically challenging, you should likewise make Protoss and Zerg have the same challenge or else you essentially handicap all Terran players. Not sure how many times I have to say this, but the Terran player shouldn't have to play a better game to beat an 'equally' skilled opponent. Why do so many Terrans who have 25% more APM than their race counterparts have such amount of trouble? You don't see a problem with that? I can give you replays / SC2gear data on all my TvP games if you want where I usually have 210/85EAPM and my opponent has 70-80/45-50EAPM and they come out ahead. No problem with that? TvZ is pretty well balanced. I feel the better player usually wins that match, the same with TvT obviously, but TvP has a severe problem. This coming from mid-high master+. There should never be a MU where you have a problem against a far less skilled opponent. Honestly most master players would do pretty well against most Terran pros when they get HT/Colo/Archon/Chargelot +3+3. There shouldn't ever be a situation which necessitates a far greater level of play from the opponent merely to come out 'maybe' even. There's games where I have 2-3x the macro/eco of the Protoss opponent, and if I engage the deathball I just get steamrolled and because Terrans do not have instant warp-ins, or ability to re-max in 20 seconds like Zerg, you simply lose the game even with 20-30 rax. They just march into your production facilities and there is nothing you can do. I think using apm is a bad example because at lower levels apm depends heavily upon your unit composition. When I go mech or sky tvp my apm is around 70, but with bio it jumps up to 90. Its simple: microing 200 supply of marines will generate double the apm of 200 supply of Zealots. I agree that T requires much more unit micro than other races, but its not as simple as raw apm. Its more about using your unit micro more effectively. Splitting a marine ball into four parts requires 4x the effort of moving the entire ball as one clump, but it generates the same amount of apm.
I agree, using APM as an argument is basically flawed. However, the point he tried to get across is valid; you have to do a ton of micromanagement and multi-tasking as Terran. Protoss, in comparison, clumps their units into one ball often on one hotkey and then clicks either T for storm or F for FFs. This USUALLY results in Terran players having and "requiring" considerably higher APM than Zerg or Protoss.
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