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On December 15 2011 08:00 Vei wrote:
I play so much ZvZ ZvP but very few ZvT, I think Terran just has a lot of nondedicated players who get to where they are with the strength of their hard-to-scout and harder-to-defend all ins, but I'll admit I'm heavily biased and wouldn't argue my point too much (though I do sincerely believe it ).
pretty much this is an accurate potrayal of how alot of terrans used to play as it was very effective but when they stopped being evffective they moved on.
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TvT is obviously a pretty deep matchup, but many of my Terran friends hate it.
I'm not sure why really. I always tell them that ZvZ and PvP are far far worse in terms of luck factor, but that hasn't stopped them from dabbling and smurfing on Z/P accounts.
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On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all.
This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home.
So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player.
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On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player.
Yes it is about race design, not about balance, although the two are intertwined. Many people say that everything should be balanced around the pro level, however the fact that even in masters players such as myself struggle as terran because of race design is a problem. Either protoss and zerg need to have a redesign where the races become more micro and multitask dependent, or terran needs units that do not require such high level mechanics that you need to have far superior apm than your opponent to win. I would prefer the former instead of the latter, I think the versatility that terran provides as your skill increases is a wonderful thing, and having the same for all races would make the game better and probably more BW esque.
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Been terran since day 1, don't plan on changing anytime soon. I deal with the changes good. And TvT still my favorite match up *72% win rate againt diamond terrans*.
TvZ 55% winrate for me
TvP 48% winrate.
People who switched because it was too hard to cope with nerfs etc etc, they're the weak ones!
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My argument is NOT that the ghost is bad! It's only that the HT is extremely versatile, and letting it halve the health of thors and BC's is the reason we never see terrans being capable of deviating beyond the MMMGV that we see. It's just silly to have our only true endgame units be rendered completely useless so easily. I know, EMP the HT and they can't feedback, or the BC/thors, but again, that leads us into the problem of micro, and why build expensive endgame units when you need another expensive endgame unit just to support it? You could much more cost-effectively just forego the thor or BC and make more marauders and marines. It'd be like saying that you could not go collosus EVER without getting HT or carriers as well. It's silly. Also, REQUIRING ghosts in such large numbers in the matchup is a flawed notion in and of itself. Ghosts should be supplemental, not essential in every single game that progresses past ten minutes.
The PDD does not absorb a feedback, the PDD has a very, VERY short casting range, leaving the raven obscenely vulnerable, and once it's down, it's static, meaning protoss can simply walk away and engage outside of the PDD.
And why would anyone not use BFH's in the front? They're mineral only, they're SUPPOSED to be the meat shields. And they're only good at sniping lone HT's... like anything in the game is.
Watch any competent terran try to make mech (tanks in particular) work in TvP. It's pathetic and awful to the degree that no pro gamer uses it in his right mind, and we haven't seen it before or since jinro did it and made it work purely because it confused MC so much that he didn't counter it properly.
it's also funny that we see so many progamers switching from terran to something else, but I don't know of a single non-terran switching to T (in the pro scene)
Oh, I'm not advocating pure mech. I feel a mixture of mech+bio or air+bio or even all three is stronger than bio alone.
I agree with you on the HT's power,I would not call it versatile though. I feel the ghost is equal in that regard -extremely powerful, yet specialized. You're quite right, that without Ghosts (assuming they have HT) that BC/Thor are not great choices. That said, even with HT's Carriers are not great choices.
The PDD is indeed static, which means it mixes well with drops/siege positions (wether u have tanks or are just attacking). It still negates 20 stalker shots, or one feedback, since it can be FB'd itself.
I prefer to use Marauders as the meatshield, rather than the hellions they do take a bit of gas, but have more HP and that one base armour.
I'm not aware of any pro's race switching other than TLO. He also switched to terran during the zerg 'depression' early on.
Good discussion though.
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On December 15 2011 08:16 Boblhead wrote:
Been terran since day 1, don't plan on changing anytime soon. I deal with the changes good. And TvT still my favorite match up *72% win rate againt diamond terrans*.
TvZ 55% winrate for me
TvP 48% winrate.
People who switched because it was too hard to cope with nerfs etc etc, they're the weak ones!
I like your attitude yo!!
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I still play it but the major problems I run into are as follows:
Almost every game I win I have never received a GG and literal "racism" because of the north american community's general attitude towards terran players that a lot of fans follow idra's mentality of. It gets to the point that if you ever win a game you are forced on the idea that you have won because of your race rather than your talent.
There is literally no extremely talented terran player to follow in from the Americas. You can name Terran pro-gamers sure, but not one that is placing respectable results consistently at any major tournament.
Ever since sc2 was released terran was balanced around the idea that all of our units are ranged and the in-game AI is A LOT smarter. In sc:bw all the races damage and units were balanced greatly without taking this into account, until someone realized that you could beat a zealot with a marine if you had the ability to keep moving your marine and shooting rather than letting them go shot for shot, an idea that now focuses on how much ability you have to put into the game for your units to trade evenly.
TvT is extremely discouraging when you're trying to mass ladder. You hear about ZvZ and PvP commonly ending on one, in rare case two base all ins that last no more than 15 minutes, yet you can get stuck in a matchup that can easily take an hour. If you're looking to win a lot of games playing standardly it definitely cuts into the amount of games you can get in for the same amount of time the other races play.
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I have to say what was mentioned before, Terran is just a race that is awefully boring to play against. Siege Tanks and Planetary Fortresses and alike make it pretty hard to beat terran at least for zerg until you get to tier three except for maybe baneling busts and that makes allmost every game against Terran take ages no matter how bad they are.
Not saying all terrans are bad not at all but I feel like they actually slow down the game by alot with their defensive set up.
I also have played zerg too much and cant get into any other macro other than zerg so I cant play any other race and wont say they are much easier to play. To me it just seems that match ups that include terran are just alot more static than the others. Which makes them boring to play against and with as well.
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It's hardly a surprise, Terran is hard. 40% change on the only aoe-effect on protoss was obviously pretty big.
vT is my best match-up by far and I like it quite a bit.
It's the only Terran match-up where not managing to do a lot of damage in the first 10 minutes result in a 90% certain loss.
I think a lot of it comes down to mech being so heavily limited/countered, even in TvT light units (read: marine) can roll it way too hard when properly controlled. It seems they are trying to address these issues with HOTS so my guess is a lot of switchers/quitters will switch back, at least for a while, after it's released.
Top players can do okay with Terran because they have the ability to do all the gimmicky stuff and constant aggression from the start of the game. There isn't exactly a defensive, meticulous style of Terran play like in BW that is viable.
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I think a lot of people hate TvT because it has become 3 different pseudo-match ups. There's Biomech vs biomech, Mech vs Mech, and Mech vs Bio. There are a ton of people who are too lazy to iron out a match up that is so complex. For me, I just chose to figure out Mech on every map.
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Im terran. I recently had the urge to switch to zerg or protoss because of Hero and DRG and other popular zergs. It feels a lot better watching protoss and zergs win than terran nowadays, at least for me.
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On December 15 2011 08:10 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:
Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all. This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home. So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player. Yes it is about race design, not about balance, although the two are intertwined. Many people say that everything should be balanced around the pro level, however the fact that even in masters players such as myself struggle as terran because of race design is a problem. Either protoss and zerg need to have a redesign where the races become more micro and multitask dependent, or terran needs units that do not require such high level mechanics that you need to have far superior apm than your opponent to win. I would prefer the former instead of the latter, I think the versatility that terran provides as your skill increases is a wonderful thing, and having the same for all races would make the game better and probably more BW esque.
Absolutely agree. If all three races had roughly the same macro/micro requirements it would make the game much more enjoyable to watch and play. I think it would also be much better design if every race had the option to play any way they want to - ie, aggressive, passive, etc. Right now Terran has to be aggressive or you lose, while Protoss or Zerg can play either passive or aggressive. I think the big design flaw is that Terran lower tier units are too good, while higher tech units are too weak. This makes Terran want to avoid late game because it's hard to win against Zerg/Toss, and makes 1 or 2 base timing attacks strong.
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It might be because of the nerfs, or something to do with the recent trend in mass chargelot lategames. But it also could be because-above plat- terran is the hardest race to learn and get good at. Not exactly to play as, but they are pretty hard to get to a high level. In my personal experience, sometimes I play against 10 straight terrans, and then I don't see a single one for two weeks.
As for the idea that terrans don't exist in higher level play because they just cheese and never l2p, I've seen things like where I hold off a 2 rax, and then they just do mass blue hellion, and then transition into other cheeses that fail miserably against 3 base muta/ling/bling.
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On December 15 2011 08:19 ScareCrow` wrote:
I still play it but the major problems I run into are as follows:
Almost every game I win I have never received a GG and literal "racism" because of the north american community's general attitude towards terran players that a lot of fans follow idra's mentality of. It gets to the point that if you ever win a game you are forced on the idea that you have won because of your race rather than your talent.
I think this is a major deterrent for me. Almost every zerg and protoss treats me like a piece of shit when I win. It paints a picture of the community being the biggest group of pretentious assholes and just makes me not want to play.
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A good amount of you seem to find that the need for the terran player to have a greater ability to accomplish things in-game is an extremely crippling task that is too daunting to continue to deal with. I think this is the sole reason this trend of less terrans even exists, you complain that terran requires a bit more effort and in the same breath openly admit to switching to another race to rectify the issue. You obviously don't care about the race (and potentially the game) enough, and this thread only exists as a repository for all of your QQ.
What are you even accomplishing? Congratulations, you've managed to uncover a very obvious fact about the SC series. You even admit there is no balance issue, no properly constructed demands for necessary change (because there is none), and in the end switch races or stop playing. This thread is dangerous as the TL masses have a tendency to collect an 'overmind' of sorts where the current popular opinion is 'right' and 'just'. Soon people will start claiming TERRAN is up just because of the initial spark of this thread to the silently growing fuel. Then who knows, maybe buffs will ensue. I've had one or two BS patches more than I would like thank you very much, and yes I play Terran and yes the nerfs do sting, so its not like I'm just here to cower at the thought of Terran getting a buff.
I for one welcome the increased challenge with open arms. If you really enjoyed playing the race, you'd tough out the recent struggles like a real man. Zerg and Toss have had their bitchfests, things just get blown out of proportion and people seem to enjoy resorting to excuses rather than being patient through what is really just a tough patch of time. I'm sure given enough time so much more of the game will be figured out so that we won't keep hitting these walls where we are stuck with no idea what to do except resort to paranoia about the state of the game.
Terran for life, if I have to play better for my wins, makes then all the more rewarding and motivating  <3
EDIT: Sorry if I sound like a huge dick... I just came in to this thread expecting a lot of good wholesome discussion with fellow Terrans and I was met with so many quitters who immediately jumped ship to a new race or quit the game altogether out of frustration. It was not what I was expecting and frankly made me a little pissed about other Terran players in general.
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Having a very hard time against protoss atm. A ton of nerfs and a ton of toss buffs, just to keep Korea balanced, has made the match-up brutal for me. Since I'am having such a hard time against protoss and because I'am playing against protoss like 40%-45% of the time, i lost interest in the game as whole. Tvz is fine, but since most of my matches are against toss, while zerg is a little, I'am getting stomped right out of the ladder. I know that i can improve against toss, but that would require much more training dedication and time, which I'am not up to atm. Rarely plays any terrans on ladder and that's probably my best match-up.
I'am diamond btw.
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From a zerg standpoint I can see why playing ZvT could be incredibly frusturating. I don't know how popular it is among my fellow z's but I play a reactive management Idra style zerg vs terran. That style of zerg is very fragile, but when excectued well against a terran opponent, it can make the zerg seem invincable. Your drops are scouted and hunted down, your pushes continually fail, you fly a medivac to drop the z's 3rd and you see that he already has a 4th up and running.
Also when playing a passive style it's easy to look back at the game and say I lost because i didnt react well enough to this, or i lost because i didnt react well enough to that. But while playing the very proactive terran race its not always clear why your attack failed. Its probably really tempting to think "wow im doing all this stuff and all zergs doing is reacting to it. Why should the burden to do damadge be on me?"
Or they could switch for the same reason i switched from terran to zerg early on. Mutas are really fucking hard to deal with. ^_^
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Im a mid diamond terran, I switched to Z for a couple weeks. It was good change because I could understand the matchup better. I got into Diamond with Z and I just switched back to T with a much better perception on TvZ and I gotta say I loved playing a different race but I find with T i just love throwing wave after wave after wave of harassment/timings/attacks and macroing while microing, its a real challenge and its very rewarding.
Ive tried P but all the 1 base gimmicky builds :p
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EPT
