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Terrans vanishing from the ladder. - Page 35

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jaminski
Profile Joined September 2010
England84 Posts
December 15 2011 00:26 GMT
#681
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.



i feel exactly the same way
[ Macrophobia ] [ EU Protoss ] [ Mid Master ]
secretary bird
Profile Joined September 2011
447 Posts
December 15 2011 00:35 GMT
#682
On December 15 2011 09:26 jaminski wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.



i feel exactly the same way


His "mate" doesnt exist he made it up to whine about balance and I'm not so sure you ever played terran, the campaign maybe?
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
December 15 2011 00:50 GMT
#683
It's because everyone got tired of TvT duh
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
December 15 2011 01:20 GMT
#684
On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:

Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all.


This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home.

So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player.


talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level:

indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly?

low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it.

there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on...

a typical example of what I mean:
lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with.

in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to.

I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?"
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
Termit
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden3466 Posts
December 15 2011 01:25 GMT
#685
Feels like most people who whines about TvT are those who can't handle mech. I'm talking about those who opens bionic with medivac on hardcore mech maps like meta or shakuras because it's easier to play bionic, and when they are up against mech they don't transition out of it properly and when you slow push forward and gain ground and map control they go full retard and just a-move their bionic army right into the tank line and writes some lame ass shit like "you are playing so boring fucking turtle i'm out of this game".

I like TvT because most of the time the better player win and it's very rare I find a TvT boring. My mech vs mech games are never longer than a late game TvZ either. People must play som sick ass turtle play if they really have problems with "1 hour games".
( ̄。 ̄)~zzz ◕ ◡ ◕
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
December 15 2011 01:28 GMT
#686
On December 15 2011 09:35 secretary bird wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 09:26 jaminski wrote:
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.



i feel exactly the same way


His "mate" doesnt exist he made it up to whine about balance and I'm not so sure you ever played terran, the campaign maybe?


Fuck you man, I think things are fine right now. right now I feel the game is the most balanced it's been since launch.
I've been telling my mate "firstly you're not good enough to take advantage of those 'abuses' and secondly most of them have been nerfed or worked out.

Except 1-1-1, that shits just wrong POLT! POOOLLLLT! (i'm joking here)
Gojira621
Profile Joined October 2010
United States374 Posts
December 15 2011 01:29 GMT
#687
i played terran for roughly a year. Worked my way up from bronze to high plat, probably would have placed diamond for season 4. I switched to zerg. I was tired of getting raped by protoss deathballs and tired of getting outmacroed by zergs. If i was caught out of position for 2 seconds half my army was dead due to banes, colossi, whatever. Zerg just seemed like a much cooler race to me and was a lot more about being aggressive and obtaining map control as opposed to terran where i felt like i was going to piss myself every time i left my base.
www.twitch.tv/Gojira621
andaylin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States10830 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 01:35:27
December 15 2011 01:34 GMT
#688
Terran is harder to play in the masters level due to all the requirements Terran has to stand a chance against Zerg, Protoss, which mostly is a simple 1A. Terran has to keep Z/P's economy under control all the while macroing intensively back at home while being cautious of counterattacks due to multipronged drops around the map. Gotta learn from them KR Terrans :/
"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard." - Kevin Durant
Xalorian
Profile Joined September 2011
Canada433 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 01:36:07
December 15 2011 01:34 GMT
#689
On December 15 2011 09:35 secretary bird wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 09:26 jaminski wrote:
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.



i feel exactly the same way


His "mate" doesnt exist he made it up to whine about balance and I'm not so sure you ever played terran, the campaign maybe?


Actually, two of my friends stopped SC2 completly (well they are playing 2v2 now, but yeah.) because they feeled like Terran was OP, and that it was hard to actually know if it was because of the race or because of their skills if they were winning.

It does not automatically mean that Terran is really OP, it was just their view, but yeah, those people exists. Stop randomly bitching and calling people liar.
FluffyBinLaden
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States527 Posts
December 15 2011 01:39 GMT
#690
Yeah, what the hell is up with that? In all my mass gaming sessions, I have only played 1 or 2 Terrans out of 30 or so games that I play. I'm in Platinum, so maybe that's a factor, but really? I mean, it's my worst matchup (ZvT) so I'm glad, but I'd like to practice it once a week....
Riddles in the Dark. Answers in the Light.
statikg
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada930 Posts
December 15 2011 01:40 GMT
#691
On December 15 2011 10:34 Xalorian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 09:35 secretary bird wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:26 jaminski wrote:
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.



i feel exactly the same way


His "mate" doesnt exist he made it up to whine about balance and I'm not so sure you ever played terran, the campaign maybe?


Actually, two of my friends stopped SC2 completly (well they are playing 2v2 now, but yeah.) because they feeled like Terran was OP, and that it was hard to actually know if it was because of the race or because of their skills if they were winning.

It does not automatically mean that Terran is really OP, it was just their view, but yeah, those people exists. Stop randomly bitching and calling people liar.


Who quits the game because they feel that their race is OP? Geez bronzies...I would never quit if my race was OP.

Really tho I'm sure these guys are all bronzies cuz thats where terran shines 3rax > everything
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 01:43:00
December 15 2011 01:42 GMT
#692
On December 15 2011 10:40 statikg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 10:34 Xalorian wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:35 secretary bird wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:26 jaminski wrote:
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.



i feel exactly the same way


His "mate" doesnt exist he made it up to whine about balance and I'm not so sure you ever played terran, the campaign maybe?


Actually, two of my friends stopped SC2 completly (well they are playing 2v2 now, but yeah.) because they feeled like Terran was OP, and that it was hard to actually know if it was because of the race or because of their skills if they were winning.

It does not automatically mean that Terran is really OP, it was just their view, but yeah, those people exists. Stop randomly bitching and calling people liar.


Who quits the game because they feel that their race is OP? Geez bronzies...I would never quit if my race was OP.

Really tho I'm sure these guys are all bronzies cuz thats where terran shines 3rax > everything


Dunno about his friends, but mine is/was high diamond. Almost every 'bronzie' i know thinks their race is UP. Zerg, Terran, Protoss, they all think the other race gets magic units that beat them.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
December 15 2011 01:45 GMT
#693
On December 15 2011 10:34 Xalorian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 09:35 secretary bird wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:26 jaminski wrote:
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.



i feel exactly the same way


His "mate" doesnt exist he made it up to whine about balance and I'm not so sure you ever played terran, the campaign maybe?


Actually, two of my friends stopped SC2 completly (well they are playing 2v2 now, but yeah.) because they feeled like Terran was OP, and that it was hard to actually know if it was because of the race or because of their skills if they were winning.

It does not automatically mean that Terran is really OP, it was just their view, but yeah, those people exists. Stop randomly bitching and calling people liar.

My GM friends say that Zerg is OP and that Protoss should make more carriers!(sarcasm)

If your friends really think this is so, let them come into the topic to state it. As of now, most people who are saying, "Terran is fine on ladder!" are doing so by proxy or are so far removed from Terran by months as other races or mains as other races. It's pretty easy to think Terran is "fine" when your experience of the race is 1/2 (or less) than the other 2 races. I find it hard to believe anybody other than Terrans could even speak about non-pro metagame since they're likely to only face 1 every 5-7 matches.
Xalorian
Profile Joined September 2011
Canada433 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 01:48:47
December 15 2011 01:47 GMT
#694
On December 15 2011 10:40 statikg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 10:34 Xalorian wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:35 secretary bird wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:26 jaminski wrote:
On December 14 2011 10:16 Kharnage wrote:
My mate doesn't enjoy terran anymore cause he feels they can be abusive and OP. He doesn't feel like his wins are because of his skill but because of his race.



i feel exactly the same way


His "mate" doesnt exist he made it up to whine about balance and I'm not so sure you ever played terran, the campaign maybe?


Actually, two of my friends stopped SC2 completly (well they are playing 2v2 now, but yeah.) because they feeled like Terran was OP, and that it was hard to actually know if it was because of the race or because of their skills if they were winning.

It does not automatically mean that Terran is really OP, it was just their view, but yeah, those people exists. Stop randomly bitching and calling people liar.


Who quits the game because they feel that their race is OP? Geez bronzies...I would never quit if my race was OP.

Really tho I'm sure these guys are all bronzies cuz thats where terran shines 3rax > everything


One was platinum, the other one was gold. Now they play together some 2v2, but stopped 1v1.

But yeah, I'm not saying that they are right nor that it is relevant, but that it indeed exist.
Luepert
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1933 Posts
December 15 2011 01:52 GMT
#695
I'm Terran, I just stopped playing all together because it got really damn tough to have everything exactly right. You face a toss or zerg and your attack is 10 seconds late and you lose 4 marines? You just lose. Its crazy how easy it is to lose if you don't do absolutely everything right.

Another reason I quit is because one of my friends who is Toss and practices like once a week, started beating me 7/10 times despite me playing 5/10 games a day. I used to always beat him and they just nerfed the hell out of Terran It was retarded shit, just mass chargelot and a-move forced extreme studder-step micro.

I'm not gunna call OP b/c obv MVP is mad good at terran I'm just not going to increase my practice just to have decreasing my results. I could just switch to Zerg but it feels unreasonable that there should be one race that just really hard to play and if your not good you have to play another.

IDK, I'm really tired and this is kind of rantish, but thats the reason for 1 less Terran on the ladder these days.
esports
Scila
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1849 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 02:01:51
December 15 2011 01:53 GMT
#696
On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:
On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:

Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all.


This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home.

So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player.


talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level:

indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly?

low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it.

there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on...

a typical example of what I mean:
lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with.

in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to.

I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?"


That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran.

Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans.

NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players.

This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 02:09:06
December 15 2011 02:04 GMT
#697
On December 15 2011 10:53 Scila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 10:20 Roblin wrote:
On December 15 2011 08:05 Scila wrote:
On December 15 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote:

Unfortunately Korean Code S level Terrans possess this ability to micro perfectly AND keep macro'ing at the same time, whereas Platinum, Diamond and Masters Terrans don't have those mechanics at all.


This is pretty much the problem. You can also add European and NA professional Terran players to that. The race requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play to the highest level, and right now only the Koreans have that skill. That's not a balance issue, its a design issue, where Terran is designed to be only fully utilized when you're microing and multitasking like a monster and still able to handle macro back at home.

So to all the people saying this is a Terran whine thread, it's NOT about balance. It's about Terran race design, making it hard to play unless you're the absolute top of the top player.


talking about the platinum, diamond, and master level:

indeed, plat terrans dont have the ability to micro and macro perfectly at the same time, are you implying that plat protoss and zerg do have the ability to play perfectly?

low-ranked players wouldn't be low ranked if they had the ability to utilize most of the races potential, this can be said about all races, not just terran. in other words, ok, low level terrans dont have the ability to fully utilize micro, and they lose games because of it. big deal. low level zergs dont have the ability to constantly inject larvae on time, and they lose games because of it.

there is no hardest race, all races are played differently and the difficulty of playing certain races are incomparable, as there is close to no common factors between the races playstyles, and those things that are common factors tend to work in unique little quirks, such as: resources are a common factor, but the distribution of what resources each race needs at what time are different, tech is a common factor, but the tech trees are different, supply is a common factor, but zerg gets units for supply and terran can call in supply-drops, and so on, and so on...

a typical example of what I mean:
lets say we have a terran which finds it hard to win in TvZ since his micro is bad. if the terrans micro is bad, that means he will be matched against a bad opponent, and if the opponent is bad, that must mean said opponent is also struggling with something, whenever any of them improve in whatever area they are struggling with, that person will increase its rank until he faces opponents that are equally skilled with himself, and he will find that there is something new that he is struggling with.

in other words, the difficulty of a race increases at the same rate at which you advance in rank, assuming the game is balanced for all matchups, which it at the time is pretty darn close to.

I have a terran friend which is a league lower than me, yet for some reason claims he has trouble in the TvZ matchup because his race is hard to play. I ask him: "are you insinuating that mine is not? how arrogant can you be to trash-talk the player which consistently beats you even when you know what he is doing?"


That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Terran is by far the hardest race to fully master. Obviously Zerg and Protoss players in those leagues are not playing perfectly, but the difference in skill between them and players of the same race at higher leagues is not nearly as huge as it is for Terran.

Just think about it this way: The things Zerg and Protoss have to improve to move up the leagues are mainly macro and decision-making. You won't have a Zerg player stuck in Diamond because his micro is bad. Terran, on the other hand, has to improve EVERYTHING to move up. This is why you have a very small number of Terrans (Koreans) who have almost completely mastered the race - > MVP, Polt, MMA, etc. Even the Grandmaster / professional NA/EU Terran players have not come close to reaching this level, which is why they are not nearly as successful with Terran as the Koreans.

NA/EU Grandmaster / professional Protoss and Zerg, on the other hand, do far better because they don't have the same insanely-high skill ceiling required to play their race at the top level. They've already almost reached the point at which they "master" their race because it's not as demanding. This is why NA/EU Protoss and Zerg players can rival the Koreans, and you see guys like Stephano, Idra, Naniwa, Huk and many other foreigners beating and playing on par with Korean players.

This is a design flaw because between about Plat and GM league, Terrans are at a severe disadvantage. They can no longer just make some bio with medivacs and "A-move with stim" as some people love to say. The amount of things you have to improve that, and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to improve.


The hilarious thing about this arguement is that it is EXACTLY the same arguement which was used to explain terran dominance 4 months ago.

Terran is the 'hardest' to master, but also gains the most from time sunk into it. Korean terrans are so scary because they put so much time in. Putting more time into Protoss won't necessarily make you better. You need to work on decision making and positioning which are difficult things to practise. you can't load up a game vs the AI on very easy and practise your decision making like you can macro.

Terran has the higher 'skill cieling' which is why they are on top. Remember that? Now Terran has the higher 'skill requirement' which is why they are stopping playing.

The amount of things you have to improve and learn to do very well is huge compared to the things Protoss and Zerg have to do in those leagues.

And this bit just reeks of exageration and condescension of zerg and protoss players between plat and gm.
shishy
Profile Joined May 2011
United States115 Posts
December 15 2011 02:12 GMT
#698
lol I literally played 6 TvZ's in a row (Won them all) but it's not very fun
Fighter
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1531 Posts
December 15 2011 02:15 GMT
#699
I also wonder if part of the reason for the disappearance of Terrans is just because of the stigma associated with playing Terran... if you go anywhere on the internet, NO ONE ever talks about being proud Terran players. And what sort of player tend to get good at the game? The ones that are big enough fans to be involved in the community, and the ones that avail themselves of resources on the internet.

I'm sure learning curves and skill ceilings play into things, but I think stigma could be part of it as well.
For Aiur???
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
December 15 2011 02:17 GMT
#700
Former Diamond Terran player early SC2. stopped playing the race pretty early since it was boring to rush your opponent and win every time. To be honest this was early SC2 and it has prolly changed now but every game back then I played never lasted longer than 13 minutes due to all the rushes and hidden tech I could make so i switched race since Terran, obviously would get nerfed, and that I enjoyed playing Zerg more and playing a race only because it gave me easy wins didn't seem a legit reason to play them :/
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
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