EPTTerrans vanishing from the ladder. - Page 32
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Musketeer
142 Posts
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:12 ToastieNL wrote: Haha, Nepsilon, nice writeup. The main problem TvP/PvT seems to be the imbalance in game- stages. T > P After 1st Marauder untill Protoss Tech kicks in. P>T Untill Terran has Medivacs T>P Untill Protoss goes high tech. P>T With Blink / Collosi until Terran has a good fleet and Ghost. T>P Untill money starts getting banked P>T Lategame Short: T>P Early T=P Mid T<P Late This is the main problem, and as Protoss gets better at defending early attacks, Terrans lategame weakness of remaxing and having the inferior army makes Terran lose so many games. Untill Blizzard buffs Terran lategame OR Terran figures out some really nice pushes. Remember, also: Protoss > Terran if 200/200, but Terran wins the smaller skirmishes. Maybe mass drop is something to experiment with? Derp. This is not true anymore. Protoss is strong early game. Yes they are, they can produce units faster if they want. 2 marauder 1 marine pushes used to be really good 6 months ago. Now ifyou try a protoss just laughs in your face and kills it. Early game is quite equal. Midgame is when terran truly shines, around 3 bases when protoss is just switching into either collosus or templar tech from the other one. That's when protoss is really weak and you can abuse alot of timings given that you scout well enough and have perfect micro in engagements(why low level terrans fail). Lategame. well... protoss is really good. So it's more like this: T=P Early T>P Midgame P>T Lategame. Thats nonsense, if you arrive at the 3rd and you see a PF (which by default against any half decent P shoudl be a PF as an orbital want stand a chance), you go at their natural and win the game cause they have no army. If you stay and fight the PF you are in bronze... Just so you know, making your 3rd a planetary in TvP is bad on almost any map. | ||
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Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On December 15 2011 01:25 CakeSauc3 wrote: What you said about Terrans not playing as much on the ladder as others is interesting to me. I've noticed that Sc2 hasn't been as fun for me in the last couple of months. I'm primarily a Terran player, but I have played the other three races off and on in order to change it up and enjoy the game more. But honestly, even though I constantly follow the sc2 scene and I like to play every now and then, my ladder motivation is gone and I just never feel like playing anymore. I wonder if any other Terran players feel the same? I'm diamond level btw. Same here used to play around 10-15games a day after work, now I only play 2-3. I'm frustrated in the MUs and mechanics of things, I watch the replays where I lose and the other person(usually a Z or P) just plays sloppy and still wins. More so with P these days, archon, chargelot and HTs all day everyday...throw in some colossus and can bang your head against the keyboard and still win... such a sad story. BTW still play terran cause it takes the most skill. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:47 ValhallaDude wrote: My league for season 4 looks something like this. Top 20 (Diamond) Zerg, Zerg, Zerg, Zerg, Terran, Zerg, Random, Zerg, Protoss, Protosss, Zerg, Zerg, Protoss, Protoss, Protoss, Random, Zerg, Terran, Zerg, Zerg Z: 11, P: 5, T: 2, R: 2 Also I want to mention the fact that foreign Terrans aren't doing so hot right now. They win hardly any tournaments. The only terrans that ever win tournaments are koreans who we know play at a much higher skill level than foreigners. It's been my experience from watching several tournaments that the only foreigners that can hold their ground against Koreans are those who actually practice in Korea or Zerg players. This implies something right? I certainly think it does. There is a small number of protoss too. Most of my games end up being PVZs which gets stale when I have to do it every single game. Lack of a foreign Terran role model certainly contributes to the small number of terrans we see on ladder, but I think that is not the core of the issue here. My 2 cents. Feel free to criticize as I am open to changing opinions and I don't hate on someone just because they play a certain race like so many ignorant young kids do. I think this is because for the most part the Koreans who are doing well with terran had rigorous BW practice to hone their mechanics to near perfection. Without the impeccable mechanics you just can't match up at the top level where Zergs and Protoss can achieve the same as you with considerably less attention to mechanics. You see foreign Z and P occasionally stomping on the best Korea has to offer but I can't even think of a single game where a foreign T beat a korean. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:34 poorcloud wrote: I like TvT. Its pretty much the only matchup as terran where you don't have to play like a god if you want to go and win a macro game. Just the match up where decision making shines imo, which feels really rewarding (especially marine/tank vs marine/tank when you win because you did a good move it seems soooo great) | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
I've been playing since beta and while all these nerfs may seem small, they've compounded us into far and away the race with the least punch. Our t3 units get magic-boxed or simply rolled by anti-air in tvz, in tvp, all of our t3 units can be feedbacked to half health, and tank splash is so small with such small damage that guaranteed-hit chargelots with equal hp to a tank just wreck mech (even moreso now that blueflame hellions take EIGHT hits to kill a zealot) What's the point of turtling when your entrenched, fortified planetary with structure armor, five turrets and three tanks can just be rolled over like it wasn't even there? Terrans are supposed to be the turtling race that engaging head-on would be suicide against. But the sad truth is that we have to play weak and mobile, with such micro that it simply doesn't work in lower levels. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:03 SupLilSon wrote: I think this is because for the most part the Koreans who are doing well with terran had rigorous BW practice to hone their mechanics to near perfection. Without the impeccable mechanics you just can't match up at the top level where Zergs and Protoss can achieve the same as you with considerably less attention to mechanics. You see foreign Z and P occasionally stomping on the best Korea has to offer but I can't even think of a single game where a foreign T beat a korean. Jinro crushed MC, QXC all-killed IM (including MVP) But those examples are flukes, really. Foreign T's just don't take tournaments. | ||
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Marcuz
31 Posts
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Mantraz
Norway119 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:17 FeyFey wrote: For the red terran army issue in tvp, research medivac energy its just an addon switch and you will need the extra energy anyway lol. And that is no trolling, this research got me up by 5% in matchups involving bio. Could also be due to the fact that the other races often think cloaked banshees are coming. That upgrade means medivacs get oneshot by hightemplars spotting for drops.. It's not reccomended in TvP at all from my experience. (master) edit, 44seconds before a fresh medivac will get 1shot. | ||
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Naeroon
Canada166 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:51 RavenLoud wrote: I chuckled at terran QQ that says they don't have enough options compared to the "30" varieties that toss has, and if anyone who don't agree is just oblivious to the facts. lolwtf, protoss, variety? Really? No, I think you misunderstand. Yes, Terran has been seen as the most innovative, versatile race overall in the game, and protoss probaby the least so. However, the issue you are talking about results specifically from the TvP matchup, where Terran literally can only 1-2 base allin (ex. 1-1-1), or MMMVG. There is no other options available for Terran against protoss that are well known in the current metagame, whereas in comparison protoss can theoretically do a number of things. So when you compare either all-inning (which people who want to improve would most definitely not want to rely on for their TvP) or one single, rigid unit composition, versus what the protoss is capable of in the matchup, the variety most certainly seems to belong to toss. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On December 15 2011 05:26 Naeroon wrote: No, I think you misunderstand. Yes, Terran has been seen as the most innovative, versatile race overall in the game, and protoss probaby the least so. However, the issue you are talking about results specifically from the TvP matchup, where Terran literally can only 1-2 base allin (ex. 1-1-1), or MMMVG. There is no other options available for Terran against protoss that are well known in the current metagame, whereas in comparison protoss can theoretically do a number of things. So when you compare either all-inning (which people who want to improve would most definitely not want to rely on for their TvP) or one single, rigid unit composition, versus what the protoss is capable of in the matchup, the variety most certainly seems to belong to toss. What variety? Give me some examples. You either all in on one base or two base (3 gate void ray, 4 gate (lol), 6 gate) or you play a macro game with zealots templars archons colossus. Toss just responds to T in the same way with the same units since forever. The only recent change is how they just realized how good double forge is + the nerfs to ghosts and buffs to archons. Protoss is currently innovating with the likes of warp prism harass while T does the same thing. I bet you in a few months you will see terrans catching up and stops whining. | ||
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Fealthas
607 Posts
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On December 14 2011 10:53 IMoperator wrote: Just wanted to point out that a "steep learning curve" actually means it's easier to learn. Sorry, it just bugs me lol  Not entirely. What it means is that the learning curve gets exponentially "tougher" as the time invested goes up. So as you play terran, the game gets harder much more quickly as you rise in the ranks. It's like swimming against the tide. This graph illustrates what I mean. Simply replace "EvE" with "Terran." ![[image loading]](http://themacgamer.com/wp-content/gallery/eve-online/eve_learningcurve.jpg) On December 15 2011 06:00 RavenLoud wrote: What variety? Give me some examples. You either all in on one base or two base (3 gate void ray, 4 gate (lol), 6 gate) or you play a macro game with zealots templars archons colossus. Toss just responds to T in the same way with the same units since forever. The only recent change is how they just realized how good double forge is + the nerfs to ghosts and buffs to archons. Protoss is currently innovating with the likes of warp prism harass while T does the same thing. I bet you in a few months you will see terrans catching up and stops whining. I hope to hell you're right, because terran hasn't had any fresh innovation in more than six months in the tvz or tvp matchups. We still go all mech or marine tank in tvz, and all-in or MMMVG in TvP. Tanks are such a joke in TvP that it doesn't even make sense, though maps could theoretically give us the ability to get some high ground defender's advantage that isn't just putting your tanks up a ramp and having them die anyways. Thors instantly get feedbacked to half health, same goes for battlecruisers. If massive units couldn't be hit with feedback (seriously, colossus, carrier, ultra, broodlord... none of them have energy, and yet BOTH of terran's do? We have a whopping one flying unit that doesn't have energy, and only one of our energy air units doesn't get oneshotted by feedback) there might be a reason for terran to have some sort of lategame goals, like thors USED to be, but protoss kicked and screamed at a very strong thor timing that it got nerfed back to uselessness. Terrans don't abuse tanks on the plateaus of shakuras nearly enough, IMO. | ||
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Genetic
Canada84 Posts
2) Terran gets constant BM on ladder. Even in masters, half of my wins I get some crap about me being Terran and it being OP or EZEZ. 3) Micro is a bitch. One game I looked away from a tank/marine army moving out across the map for about half a second, and it was surrounded with lings and banes and was gone. Like they didn't even remotely kill anything lol. It was just gone. I don't think any other unit VS unit scenario allows this kind of harsh penalty for a micro error. 4) Who wants to play a race where every time you make a building you have to shift click or remember to come back to the worker and send it back to the mineral patch? 5) Add ons are a nuisance, and easy targets for attacking units. Again, why not play P or Z and not have em? 6) Yeah TvP is repetitive and predictable. It's more like MM/bunker VS probable toss all in, or a game of can I scout HT or colossus before they arrive on the field. Yeah I'm simplifying it alot, but from a Terran perspective it's that over and over again lol 7) Terran can not make units as quickly as other races. This sucks hard in the late game. 8) Ghosts are our only high tier unit worth shit (i'm considering tanks med tier) 9) 3 different upgrade sets, and every MU requires a mix of at least two of those sets. I feel Zerg going ling/infestor/ultra, or toss going gate/colossus/HT can upgrade a lot easier. Again with the late game frustrations when you have 0-0 Vikings VS 4 armored colossus. 10) To finish off my rant, our buildings look lame. lol | ||
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BONE
United States176 Posts
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
These things are in no way me saying that we should have everything the other races do, and I know that with micro we can overcome the odds, as always, but damnit, I just want my massive seige tank line and turret rings around bases to be a little more than simple speedbumps. | ||
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People_0f_Color
177 Posts
Terrans were winning a lot on abusive strategies, overpowered strats, or simply hard to sniff out and beat strats. Terrans rose a lot of rank doing the same **** over and over again. Zergs and Protoss became more adept at beating these "tricks', as well as some terran tricks got nerfed (bunkers, reapers, etc.). Zergs and Protosses actually got better with their mechanics and the game, so once they started beating cute Terran tricks, they started going up in levels. These terrans either went down in levels or quit playing out of frustration of losing so much. This explains the disproportion of Terrans in high v. low ranks compared to Toss and Zergs. Because players that thought they were good actually weren't. I'm in high platinum which is nothing to brag about, but you expect at this point for people to at least understand the basics of the game. And still, I majority of the time run into terrans who do nothing but build 4-5 rax with reactors and only make marines. I'm sure that used to win them a lot of games before zergs had ironed out their drone/unit timings. Not anymore. | ||
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Ironsights
United States196 Posts
I feel like its the "balance" issues that are driving my brothers into th eager embraces of the other races. I can't really comment on which specific nerfs should have or shouldn't have hit terran, can't especially say any of the buffs to the other races shouldnt have happened...but I can say each patch hurts mentally. Every time you find a weakness in your foe, they patch it away. Each time you find a strategy that is starting to work for you and your wins are going up...they patch it away. I am sure Blizzard knows what they are doing, but for a rather low league player the constant "anti-terran" feeling of the patches is very, very discouraging. Honestly I have wanted to quit them, but I am somethign of a masochist when it comes to admitting defeat. I will suffer a thousands deaths before I whisper "I can't do this..." with a heart full of shame. | ||
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TheUnderking
Canada202 Posts
PS. Warden's 1-1-1 into terran death ball, (look it up) is pretty solid late game v toss, at least in my experience. Some complaints I've seen numerous times in this thread that I feel are baseless: "Feedback reduces our top tier units to half hp" ... EMP reduces all toss units in an AoE to roughly* half hp and the Ghost is a superior unit in every respect I can think of to the High Templar except cost. (faster, more HP, better unit type, has an attack, more abilities) "Terran macro is so weak"... mules & macro orbitals are pretty good, so are reactors, and add-on powering is too (using the factory to prebuild reactors/labs for rax's) "It takes BFH EIGHT shots to kill a zealot" .. Assuming assuming no upgrades it actually takes nine, but that shot could be killing 5 zealots at once. "We've been nerfed so much" ... Indeed Terran has, and they deserved it. Balance in this game is far better than it was at the start of retail. | ||
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