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But, terrans only face it at diamond, or even low masters. I think the difficulty of terran that everyone is talking about is probably only applicable at the highest level and it doesn't affect diamond- low master terrans at a
As already said in my last post, its the other way around. To be equal with T and Z on a diamond /masters level, terran needs better mechanics and micro, because u cant reinforce fast, lose if you unsiege wrong one time, and you need an better arc. While your doing that you need to produce constantly.
Pro's get rewarded by that because terran units improve most with player skill, and they are able to macro properly while theyre fighting/dropping etc. But diamond and master league terran players dont have that amount of control.
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Well i never thought that i will someday step up and explain my thoughts which are 100% accurate in my mind, but now i will.
I am not bronze or diamond but i am a high master Terran. I am playing this game for 6 months now and i am aiming to the top no matter what and thats my current goal that i will stick up with it.
My explanation upon why Terrans are vanishing is very simple :
- Not all Sc2 players tend to become professional and only play for fun or maybe set some goal like achieving master and that's it. A good amount of those players who have chosen to play terran simply couldnt go past some league simply because of the race itself. With an answer to that they tend to change to another race so they can reach the goal and apparently they do it very easier than playing a terran.
Why is that ?
Well it is pretty simple :
I am not stating that Terran is harder than the zergs or tosses but from my own experience i am judging upon my race the Terran.
Terran is very hard to play simply because it is the " monkey see = monkey do" race.
Why am i saying this is that for an example when you are playing versus a Protoss (currently the biggest pain for Terrans)
1.You need to scout on whats he is doing , whenever he is rushing or not so you can defend or focus economy.
2.You need to scout midgame on what is the protoss doing (colossus or HT's) and respond properly by adding Vikings and/or Ghosts.
3.You need to Re scout after a fight and see what he aims to go in the mid/end game. (example : After dealing vs archon/chargelots/hts army composition they can easily pump 6 colossus from 2 robos and can kill you with a surprise if you dont scout.)
4You will always have tech units disadvantages simply because u can not blindly go for vikings and get evaporated from charglots with templars.
5.After a positive fight for the terran you still dont have the proper answer to go and eliminate any of the protoss expansions because he will be always ahead of you on army with those warpgates. Or after having a positive fight and u have some army left the protoss can easily warp a good amount of DT's / spread them over your expos and ur base and buy himself a good amount of time to remax very fast.
6.You can not stim and A attack on protoss army simply because you will never win toss 200/200 army or either a smaller portion of supply of protoss units. You first need to spread your army very fast , position ur ghosts infront if he has templars and get your vikings on a safe place before you engage the protoss army. This takes some time and while this is happening the protoss can use those seconds for his advantage and caught you out of position. This rarely happens to the protoss because they rely on observers and you rely on scans ( but your economy relies on scans which means that at least in 50 % of the time you wont be able to have enough for a scan.)
Even not having a scan can easily kill you.
7. And 1 more thing which is important as well. while you fight with protoss army and you are against chargelots hts you need to the the following : Snipe/emp the hts than emp the chargelots / archons , and simply kite the army back which is very hard to do it with all selected army because on high supply the terran army is getting clumped up which means a very big advantage for archons/colossus from Toss army. And while you do that kiting a protoss can very easily go with his vision to a pylon , warp a lot of units and just send them to attack, While i dont think there is any terran that is able to outselect his army , select the production facilities and spam marines / marauders / vikings/ medivacs / ghosts and YET still to kite the protoss army. To take an example i need at least 3-4 ingame seconds to queue up 8 raxes and 2 ports with units and that is the time when i wont kite and my army gets evaporated.
I myself have around 270 apm and more and i still can not do that task.
(all the above points are made for when T and P are on the same level of economy and have the same army supply . simply because thats what Dustin Bowder stated and i will quote here : We want all races to feel balanced through the whole time of the game , since the beginning to the end.)
Well thats what i think made terrans having hard time against protoss and in lower leagues vs Zergs because they can not split their marines very fast and they die very fast from them.
In my opinion Terrans have the best pattern of units that counter every single other units in the game from Toss and Zerg But however we can not experiment just like toss can do or maybe the zerg.
For an example i see the toss going HTS wiithout robo with a little prressure at the beginning to simply make u to stay on ground units. I can not go for 3 port banshee and get cloak so i can get good counter to what he is doing. Those minerals left on the banshees will really screw my whole switch to normal MMMGV army. While protoss from 1 army after beeing killed he can switch to DTs and buy himself a lot of time as i said. That isnt possible for Terran and if you do than consider is as an all in because there isnt coming back from it.
I am telling this from experience and i am not a person that is clueless about the game. I know the game at least 80 % and i still havent found any gap timing to attack the protoss with at least a little advantage. (Ofc i sometimes do find when its obvious but in a clear and equal stage TVP i still havent).
My win ration goes like this on my last 150 games :
TVT - 55 % win
TVZ - 78 % win
TVP - 38 % win
Maybe the terrans still havent figured out how to outplay protoss after the nerfs or maybe it is really not ideally balanced i dont know and i dont want to mess with it but i really want to see this game to be in a good balance shape simply because i did already put my life depending on this game and i am going to become something of this.
Terrans shouldnt switch their race because they cant get past a league. They should instead stick with it and find a way to pass that block you have and even be a bit more patient till Blizzard fix the issue.
For the end :
I am not stating that Zerg and Protoss is easier to play than the Terran. In my head it is with a clear advantage the terran race to be the hardest but i am not stating it as a fact but as a thought of mine.
My apology if i have offended the protoss side.
Take care.
Nepsilon
Enough with the talk since i will have to write a whole essay here.
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On December 14 2011 10:20 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:18 Swwww wrote:
Blizzard 'balances' for the very top of GSL -> game becomes less balanced at lower leagues inc. GM -> people stop playing terran since its underpowered -> terrans disappear from ladder. Seems pretty simple to me! Umm.. wtf are you talking about. Blizzard has said in the BlizzCons and other interviews hardest thing about balance is balancing for all leagues. Biggest example is the Reaper. Everyone agreed there needed to be a nerf but the severe Factory requirement was for the lower leagues and team gamers, cause having speed was overpowered. Whilst the pros had control and builds to deal with it.
he's talking about the fact that blizz kept nerfing terran even though the only "group" of terrans who were doing well were top lvl korean terrans in code s
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Haha, Nepsilon, nice writeup.
The main problem TvP/PvT seems to be the imbalance in game- stages.
T > P After 1st Marauder untill Protoss Tech kicks in.
P>T Untill Terran has Medivacs
T>P Untill Protoss goes high tech.
P>T With Blink / Collosi until Terran has a good fleet and Ghost.
T>P Untill money starts getting banked
P>T Lategame
Short:
T>P Early
T=P Mid
T<P Late
This is the main problem, and as Protoss gets better at defending early attacks, Terrans lategame weakness of remaxing and having the inferior army makes Terran lose so many games.
Untill Blizzard buffs Terran lategame OR Terran figures out some really nice pushes.
Remember, also:
Protoss > Terran if 200/200, but Terran wins the smaller skirmishes. Maybe mass drop is something to experiment with?
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On December 15 2011 03:12 ToastieNL wrote:Haha, Nepsilon, nice writeup. The main problem TvP/PvT seems to be the imbalance in game- stages. T > P After 1st Marauder untill Protoss Tech kicks in. P>T Untill Terran has Medivacs T>P Untill Protoss goes high tech. P>T With Blink / Collosi until Terran has a good fleet and Ghost. T>P Untill money starts getting banked P>T Lategame Short: T>P Early T=P Mid T<P Late This is the main problem, and as Protoss gets better at defending early attacks, Terrans lategame weakness of remaxing and having the inferior army makes Terran lose so many games. Untill Blizzard buffs Terran lategame OR Terran figures out some really nice pushes. Remember, also: Protoss > Terran if 200/200, but Terran wins the smaller skirmishes. Maybe mass drop is something to experiment with?
where do you come up with this?
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Im a terran player who switch to zerg because i was tired of losing in a Late game scenario.
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On December 15 2011 03:12 ToastieNL wrote:Haha, Nepsilon, nice writeup. The main problem TvP/PvT seems to be the imbalance in game- stages. T > P After 1st Marauder untill Protoss Tech kicks in. P>T Untill Terran has Medivacs T>P Untill Protoss goes high tech. P>T With Blink / Collosi until Terran has a good fleet and Ghost. T>P Untill money starts getting banked P>T Lategame Short: T>P Early T=P Mid T<P Late This is the main problem, and as Protoss gets better at defending early attacks, Terrans lategame weakness of remaxing and having the inferior army makes Terran lose so many games. Untill Blizzard buffs Terran lategame OR Terran figures out some really nice pushes. Remember, also: Protoss > Terran if 200/200, but Terran wins the smaller skirmishes. Maybe mass drop is something to experiment with?
Mass drops endgame are not viable , tried it, failed badly  Toss endgame even puts canons there which buys a moderate time for toss to reach back and clean up the badly positioned t army and simply rush ahead with new warps to the terran base and eliminate it.
I have thoughts in my head about Terran nukes endgame. could be the answer but i still havent figured out a good pattern of attacks so i can make the protoss get the disadvantage instead of me.
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I started out as zerg in the beta and got into diamond league pretty quickly. A few months after the game was released I switched to terran because I thought it would be a lot more fun being the aggressive player. I got into masters as terran but when I started to reach high masters I just hit a limit. I couldn't really see any fundamental flaws in my play and I basically only won against protoss when I took big risks and tvz started to become increasingly hard as zergs would mostly out macro me in the late game. I then decided to switch back to zerg again as I found it a lot easier to improve my play as that race. A while later I went back to terran as I felt an urge to just play fun strategies and nuke people. I continued to improve until I reached my limit once again. This time I only had problems with protoss. TvZ was probably my strongest match-up and tvt was pretty much 50% winrate. At that point I pretty much gave up on playing terran again as I couldn't stand losing every time I played against protoss and not understanding how to beat them without cheese. Now I play random in low masters and just try to enjoy the game a bit more.
It felt as you needed to get fast expansions, fast upgrades, a lot of ghosts, a lot of medivacs and successful drops to beat protoss. Problem is you die to anything if you go for more than 2 of those at the same time.
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The problem for me (top Masters) with Terran is that we have way too mechanics, add-ons, 3 different production buildings, kiting, dropping, splitting, stimming, EMPing and target firing with Vikings all require an insane multitasking and APM to do properly, it makes the learning process insanely hard when you have to learn how to micro, multitask and macro at the same time whereas Zerg and Protoss can win with a more passive and easier playstyle.
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United Kingdom38200 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:39 Linwelin wrote:
I'm happy that there are less Terrans. That means i get to play even less TvT's
God, I hate TvT
I love TvT, easily my best match up results wise =(
TvZ is the most fun thing ever though so as long as there's more Zergs to dance with I'm pretty content.
Don't like TvP because it tends to result in one player absolutely crushing the other with very little in beween.
====
As for why there may be a decline of Terrans I'd imagine it's a mixture of the following:
1) People play mostly terran in the campaign and decide they want to try something different on the ladder.
2) Lingering anti-Terran sentiment disuades people who research a bit from picking Terran.
3) Toss being frequently suggested as the better race for beginners.
I'm doubtful that people are actively switching away from T as a result of negative comments on ladder, but I could definitely see people swapping away because after going straight into Terran after the campaign they've got a bit bored and want to try something different.
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TvT is so boring. Most boring mirror.
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Lol this thread has degenerated so badly it almost feels like parody.
Yeah T is a hard race to play now, yeah there are less T now in ladder(a whooping 25% of players play terran ZOMG disappearance!!!1!!!) but... its obvious to anyone that its still possible to win games as T. If you want to play T earn your freaking wins, too hard? Then switch to an "easier" race.
E: Come back to us Terran pals, come back to us T_T !!
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On December 15 2011 03:21 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:39 Linwelin wrote:
I'm happy that there are less Terrans. That means i get to play even less TvT's
God, I hate TvT I love TvT, easily my best match up results wise =( TvZ is the most fun thing ever though so as long as there's more Zergs to dance with I'm pretty content. Don't like TvP because it tends to result in one player absolutely crushing the other with very little in beween. ==== As for why there may be a decline of Terrans I'd imagine it's a mixture of the following: 1) People play mostly terran in the campaign and decide they want to try something different on the ladder. 2) Lingering anti-Terran sentiment disuades people who research a bit from picking Terran. 3) Toss being frequently suggested as the better race for beginners. I'm doubtful that people are actively switching away from T as a result of negative comments on ladder, but I could definitely see people swapping away because after going straight into Terran after the campaign they've got a bit bored and want to try something different.
There is nothing more satisfying than a solid mech win in TvT. People usually hate TvT because they never took the time to really learn.
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Of my last 46 games, 22 of them were Terran (15 zerg and 9 protoss). I would love for there to be less terrans, ZvT is my worst matchup 
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On December 15 2011 03:27 Najda wrote:Of my last 46 games, 22 of them were Terran (15 zerg and 9 protoss). I would love for there to be less terrans, ZvT is my worst matchup
But wouldn't you like the high frequency of terrans? More terrans means more practice with your worst matchup. ^.^
Just trying to change your perspective.
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On December 15 2011 03:27 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:21 Asha` wrote:On December 15 2011 02:39 Linwelin wrote:
I'm happy that there are less Terrans. That means i get to play even less TvT's
God, I hate TvT I love TvT, easily my best match up results wise =( TvZ is the most fun thing ever though so as long as there's more Zergs to dance with I'm pretty content. Don't like TvP because it tends to result in one player absolutely crushing the other with very little in beween. ==== As for why there may be a decline of Terrans I'd imagine it's a mixture of the following: 1) People play mostly terran in the campaign and decide they want to try something different on the ladder. 2) Lingering anti-Terran sentiment disuades people who research a bit from picking Terran. 3) Toss being frequently suggested as the better race for beginners. I'm doubtful that people are actively switching away from T as a result of negative comments on ladder, but I could definitely see people swapping away because after going straight into Terran after the campaign they've got a bit bored and want to try something different. There is nothing more satisfying than a solid mech win in TvT. People usually hate TvT because they never took the time to really learn.
I like TvT. Its pretty much the only matchup as terran where you don't have to play like a god if you want to go and win a macro game.
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On December 15 2011 01:58 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:58 nvrs wrote:
edit: how many times have i lost by microing very well, killing a protoss deathball only to arrive at their expansion-base with a red army (from engagement + stimming) and get treated by 20 freshly warped in zealots?
On the other hand, if i loose my army, by the time he gets to my expo(s) i ll have no army, unless i had army their in the first place as a defense, but then you are not fighting the first battle with your whole army... Probably less times than I've killed the T army, arrived at their fourth with the remnants of a gateway army, and been denied by a PF. Or not had 20 gates and 2000 minerals floating and simply lost my nexus. You can cite a situation to prove any point, that doesn't make them a constant rule.
Thats nonsense, if you arrive at the 3rd and you see a PF (which by default against any half decent P shoudl be a PF as an orbital want stand a chance), you go at their natural and win the game cause they have no army. If you stay and fight the PF you are in bronze...
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Is it really that hard to post a link in the OP citing your claims? I want to see the actual numbers.
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Im Terran, im gonna stick to Terran, because in my eyes its the best race. but i have noticed that there are less terrans around. I think i know the reason, or at least i explain it myself like that:
Every Race has a "difficult" point in figuring out how to play it in my opinion, so when players get beyond this "difficult" point they get more comfortable and "jump" on the ladder ranks.
When i was playing Zerg i started getting faster better when i figured out all the timings for allins etc.
I dont know this point for protoss, but my P-buddys told me they had this too. Terran in my eyes gets hard around plat to low masters level, when aggressive play doesnt work so well, and the terrans have to multitask more (manage attack, build production, expand at the same time as 2raxFE TvP) and when they start figuring out to be active on the map and not let the enemy macro up (which is a autoloss for Terran at this level of play)
as for Terrans complaining about TvP, if late game is so hard to play, stick to 2base timing attacks. TvP is my best macthup, and i never aim for lategame, or at least i aim to do enough damage before 15 minutes so i have a chance later. What i elarned from practicing against masters Tosses from bronze on. I know, macroplay is holy and all allins and the "it will not go past 2 base!" attitude are terrible, but i liek this style and its as acceptable as everything else.
PS: i never get "gg"s and everyone says to me i play the OP-Stimcheating, allinluck, etc. race. forget the bm and hate, Terran Master Race, Zerg mad, protoss jelly
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My league for season 4 looks something like this.
Top 20 (Diamond)
Zerg, Zerg, Zerg, Zerg, Terran, Zerg, Random, Zerg, Protoss, Protosss, Zerg, Zerg, Protoss, Protoss, Protoss, Random, Zerg, Terran, Zerg, Zerg
Z: 11, P: 5, T: 2, R: 2
Also I want to mention the fact that foreign Terrans aren't doing so hot right now. They win hardly any tournaments. The only terrans that ever win tournaments are koreans who we know play at a much higher skill level than foreigners. It's been my experience from watching several tournaments that the only foreigners that can hold their ground against Koreans are those who actually practice in Korea or Zerg players. This implies something right? I certainly think it does.
There is a small number of protoss too. Most of my games end up being PVZs which gets stale when I have to do it every single game.
Lack of a foreign Terran role model certainly contributes to the small number of terrans we see on ladder, but I think that is not the core of the issue here.
My 2 cents. Feel free to criticize as I am open to changing opinions and I don't hate on someone just because they play a certain race like so many ignorant young kids do.
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EPT
