|
While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
Australia18228 Posts
On December 14 2011 23:15 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:13 Inflicted_ wrote:On December 14 2011 23:10 redviper wrote:On December 14 2011 23:04 Mashmed wrote:On December 14 2011 23:03 GeNeSiDe wrote:
How would you feel if you were at the biggest chess championship of the world, and two highly anticipated players were facing off only to have them suicide every one of their pieces 1 move at a time until a checkmate was inevitable? You'd be just as angry! If they played a game of chess that wouldn't give them anything that had no real meaning. Then I wouldn't watch it because there is no point. I don't know about you, but I regularly watch show matches. I watched TLO vs MadFrog, Moon vs Sky (sc2 and wc3). I watched Boxer vs FD and Boxer vs Yellow. And you know what I would have been annoyed if any of them played to win to an extreme but I would have been offended if any of them played to lose. I am sure you would have felt the same. Now imagine if it were Boxer vs Yellow in a grandfinal of a starleague or some high-end tournament in a Best of 5 and Boxer had just bunker-rushed Yellow three-times in a row (and won), yet Yellow must continue playing out two more meaningless matches just because it's a Bo5. Would you actually be surprised if Yellow was frustrated enough to cheese or try out stupid strategies just so he could end it early and go home? Yes because BW pros would not even consider taking that risk. KeSPA doesn't tolerate that crap or is as lenient as GOM. Your argument is 100% invalid.
I'm that saying that makes Naniwa's decision right, but you have to understand his mindset and why he 'played to lose'. Being forced to play some meaningless game when you're frustrated with the games that previously happened (losing to a baneling bust, 1-1-1 then thor rush), so it shouldn't be surprising if someone were to outright end a game early so they can leave.
Not to mention that Gom didn't have any set rules disdaining such behaviour unlike KeSPA does and so in Naniwa's mind, there was nothing wrong with his actions at the time.
|
How do I delete my account on gomtv.net?
|
On December 14 2011 23:19 Fawkes wrote:
I don't even get this thread anymore...I thought Providence didn't have a Code S spot...why is everyone talking about this Code S spot that Naniwa earned at Providence?
TLPD, the casters, two MLG articles said so. Tasteless today said, his Code S was revoked, he didn't mention, they were going to give him the Code S and changed their mind.
|
On December 14 2011 23:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:07 oxxo wrote:On December 14 2011 23:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
1. “During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours “ (GOM TV rule)
How many times have we seen manner mules, manner celebrations, or other semi-BM tactics that completely override this rule? It certainly doesn't make the loser *feel good*. And no one ever gets punished for them, because it's part of the game. People need thicker skin. So you're offended. Grab a tissue. So you paid money and wanted to watch Nestea vs. Naniwa? Well tough luck, because you apparently thought...
2. Every match needs to be played out no matter what?
Since when? Over the course of BW and SC2, how many times have we seen matches get crossed off the playing list because they're irrelevant to who moves on? Too many to keep count. The Nestea vs. Naniwa game shouldn't have been played at all, because there undoubtedly would have been "Oh Player X didn't try because the game didn't count, which is why he lost the game," regardless of how epic the game was. It's hardly Naniwa's fault for not caring about a game that didn't count towards the progression of the tournament. He played to win, not to make friends. And how many times have we seen a best of seven turn into four straight boring games of one-sided roflstomps? It sucks. I would have liked Nestea and Naniwa to do better than 0-3 in their bracket, but they didn't, so they got knocked out after three games. They tried, but they didn't do well this time around.
3. Naniwa isn't Code S/ pro-gamer material.
This just astonishes me. He moved to Korea, worked his ass off in every single game that mattered, and takes his job extremely seriously. Just to reiterate for emphasis, he frickin moved to Korea for this. He's not cuddly and the best-mannered guy in the business, but he's damn focused and cares about succeeding. It's ridiculous that he arbitrarily loses his Code S spot because some people are angry at him. The rules were vague and he got screwed because people don't like him. If Huk did this, you better believe nothing would have happened to him. 1) Manner mules/nexus are not abusive. 2) Every professional sport requires a match to be played out. People always talk about 'Esports' but then refuse to act like professionals when they don't feel like it. 3) What does moving to Korea have to do with anything? Nothing. 1. Dancing units, manner units and buildings, and ceremonies that involve banging on your opponent's booth among other things are absolutely abusive compared to just going all-in early on in the game. In fact, sending your probes to attack isn't abusive at all. Bitbybit says what? 2. No? Nice baseless generalization there. Not in the slightest, and players certainly don't have to play to their fullest potential in every game or set if it's not going to matter in the overall scheme of things. Players and teams often coast until the end if they have to worry about stamina or if they've already won or lost. 3. Moving to Korea epitomizes the seriousness of a foreigner pro-gamer. To be the best, you have to practice with the best.
1. Only MC's booth banging case is a solid one. The others are incentivating competition, and hav nothing in common with Nani's game.
2. When you enter a tournament you agree to its format. If you don't like it, get out, you're free to do so, but once you're in, you agree to it. If the tournament requires you to play out every match, you do so, even if I agree it's retarded, once you're in you agree to it.
3. I agree in this. That doesn't mean Nani's behaviour yesterday was pro-like at all.
|
On December 14 2011 23:19 snafoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:15 empty.bottle wrote:
Lol GOM such a joke, you should've established the rules BEFORE the tournament...
Yeah, damn GOM, should of foreseen someone wanting to Probe rush in a tournament that they get paid for even if they don't win a single game.
Not to mention the fact that he did not even have his hands on the keyboard while he did a probe rush
people are ridic on this forum.....
|
On December 14 2011 23:18 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:16 Focuspants wrote:
GOM HAS NO RIGHT TO TAKE AWAY A CODE S SPOT THAT DOESNT EXIST FROM A PLAYER THAT THEY WERE CONSIDERING GIVING ONE TO AFTER HE SHIT ON THEIR PREVIOUS TOURNAMENT!
How dare they do such a thing, what a bunch of hypocrits, theyre a tyrannical force of racism trying to show their ethnic dominance. Mr Chae is making up rules cause he hates Swedish people! They have to give Naniwa a code S spot because I said so! They have no right to make decisions about their own tournament! Its all because of BO1 series that this happened! They obviously dont know the new strategy where you rush with your probes and play with one hand! Just because people pay hard earned money to watch these tournaments, and take time to support these players doesnt mean the players should be expected to be respectful to the sport or to their money!
Come on people. This is ridiculous. Get a grip. Someone messed up big, and their punishment is not getting a gift that the person they just spit on was going to give them. Being outraged by that is completely unreasonable. Here's where you're wrong. They could kick MVP if they wanted... It's their league. You may not agree, but it's their right. (This disregarding everything that happened)
My post was being sarcastic :/ I FULLY support GOMS decision. Read the rest of it.
|
Can people stop saying he earned it? Even if we disregard the whole discussion whether or not MGL Providence gave him the seed, the point is that to earn a spot in code S, you have to first earn a spot in code A, then win in the up and down matches. Naniwa has not done this. He did well in Providence so he got invited by Gom. Then he acted stupid so GOM decided to revoke their invitation.
It. Was. An. Invitation.
I seriously doubt he would have been denied Code S if he ACTUALLY earned it by winning in the up and down games.
|
On December 14 2011 18:40 dafunk wrote:
Deserved.
And it will prevent anyone from doing it in the future.
I agree.
I hope he learn something from that.
|
Best move on GOMs part. This behavior is unacceptable at any level. If CoCa was punished then this is far worse.
Agree with GOMs decision 100% If you decide to be ignorant of others you dont deserve to have the spot. No room for DIVAS in sc2.
|
On December 14 2011 23:20 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:17 xbankx wrote:On December 14 2011 23:15 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 23:12 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2011 22:14 .Sic. wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours"
Gom stepped over the boundaries by deciding that they have the right to determine what play is "offensive to opponents/audience" or not. What exactly about the ensuing furore makes you think GOM got that call wrong? I've read a good few of the 100+ pages of this thread and without exception those opposed to GOM's decision have focused on only a small part of the big picture. Sure, the match didn't matter as far as Naniwa's chances in the competition were concerned. So if that's all you decide to care about, his decision was entirely reasonable. But professional sport is not about pandering to one individual. In professional sport, everyone is in it together: players, spectators, organisers, officials - everyone. It only works if we all pull together. Are victory ceremonies or in-game victory BM (to which this has been compared) against the spirit of the sport? No. Fans love that stuff; it foments rivalries, increase the spectacle. Obviously there is a point where they would become detrimental (literally pissing into your opponent's cubicle for instance), but right now, no. Would Nestea going on tilt and 6-pooling in that same game be against the spirit of the sport? No. A 6-pool is a genuine, if desperate, attempt to win. It would at least show he cared. What Naniwa did, on the other hand, was entirely selfish. He denied Nestea a chance to save face by earning a win, made his sponsors look stupid after they hyped the game, used the match as a platform to humiliate the organisers for their choice of format - a format he signed up for by choosing to take part, disappointed the fans who stayed up to watch - in short, he made it perfectly clear that the only thing he gave a damn about was himself. If you think 'SC2-pro' is just a kind of unofficial league above GM, you're woefully mistaken. Doing anything professionally carries obligations over and above those attached to a recreational activity, because it's no longer just about you. It's about you and the people paying you. You can cook? Great! You want to be a chef? Better start adhering to health and safety and hygiene standards, and getting food out on time and on budget. You can take nice photos? Great! Want to be a wedding photographer? Then you'll be wanting insurance and a network of other pros in case you're ill on the day. You'll be multiply-RAIDing your hard drives, scouting venues, honing your interpersonal and organisational skills so that the wedding party have a great time and great pictures to take away and don't have to spend all day away from their guests. You can play SC2 well? Great! You want to be a pro-gamer? You want a sponsor to pay you and ferry you around from tournament to tournament? You want fans who'll tune in and maybe buy the products you endorse? Then you act like you give a shit, 100% of the time. That's part of the job. Read this. Seriously such a good post. Amazing post. Perfectly sums up my feelings on it all.
Idra arguably has ragequited alot of times in the past without giving a fuck about his fans..games or competition. He did it because he straight-forward wanted to and felt to (again in the past). Yet he has more fans then all foreigners put together and doubled. He is also in one of the most financially stable teams at the moment..having a salary like at any normal company.... on top of witch he puts his wins. What's your point?
|
This is to harsh and also not helping esports.
With koreans dominating they should welcome every western player who can compete at their level.
Why not just give him a strong warning,and then revoke the seed if it happens again?
meh
O well, at least we now know the koreans take their starcraft serious (lol) and it will be a deterent for the future.
Still hope they come back at their decission.
|
On December 14 2011 23:08 Benjef wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:08 top9696 wrote:
(Sorry for my terrible grammer)
In korea, people are cheering about this news. They think imnestea was ridiculed by naniwa.
Even nestea said that he was mad at that time. Before start playing, He thought for a while how to play, but the glorious probe rush came.
Also im korean. I agree about this. I think this is the culture crash. Guessed as much. Pretty big culture clash.
Guess your right. Most Korean dont(cannot) understand why foreigners are standing by naniwa.
Anyway, After the probe rush, naniwa got a huge korean anti-fan.
|
On December 14 2011 23:19 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:14 NHY wrote:On December 14 2011 23:12 Mallidon wrote:
I can see their point of view. Naniwa was out, probe rushed to end his game quickly, and that doesn't make for good viewing. A true sportsman would probably have played out that match normally.
However, to ban him from the GSL based on this incident? If they had wanted to punish him, a fine or a warning or something would have sufficed. It's a bit of an overreaction to outright ban him imo.
I'd also add in that Naniwa's personality seems to be of someone who goes out to win and screw the niceties. In some ways he reminds me of a boxer or a UFC fighter. I can see why he'd do something like this in what he would see as a pointless match that he couldn't win anything from. He is not banned. He just doesn't get Code S seed for Jan 2012. Same difference tbh.
Well if you think Naniwa will not make Code S through "normal" ways then yes.
|
On December 14 2011 23:21 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
How do I delete my account on gomtv.net?
blind swedish fanboys are retards
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On December 14 2011 23:19 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:17 xbankx wrote:On December 14 2011 23:15 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 23:12 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2011 22:14 .Sic. wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours"
Gom stepped over the boundaries by deciding that they have the right to determine what play is "offensive to opponents/audience" or not. What exactly about the ensuing furore makes you think GOM got that call wrong? I've read a good few of the 100+ pages of this thread and without exception those opposed to GOM's decision have focused on only a small part of the big picture. Sure, the match didn't matter as far as Naniwa's chances in the competition were concerned. So if that's all you decide to care about, his decision was entirely reasonable. But professional sport is not about pandering to one individual. In professional sport, everyone is in it together: players, spectators, organisers, officials - everyone. It only works if we all pull together. Are victory ceremonies or in-game victory BM (to which this has been compared) against the spirit of the sport? No. Fans love that stuff; it foments rivalries, increase the spectacle. Obviously there is a point where they would become detrimental (literally pissing into your opponent's cubicle for instance), but right now, no. Would Nestea going on tilt and 6-pooling in that same game be against the spirit of the sport? No. A 6-pool is a genuine, if desperate, attempt to win. It would at least show he cared. What Naniwa did, on the other hand, was entirely selfish. He denied Nestea a chance to save face by earning a win, made his sponsors look stupid after they hyped the game, used the match as a platform to humiliate the organisers for their choice of format - a format he signed up for by choosing to take part, disappointed the fans who stayed up to watch - in short, he made it perfectly clear that the only thing he gave a damn about was himself. If you think 'SC2-pro' is just a kind of unofficial league above GM, you're woefully mistaken. Doing anything professionally carries obligations over and above those attached to a recreational activity, because it's no longer just about you. It's about you and the people paying you. You can cook? Great! You want to be a chef? Better start adhering to health and safety and hygiene standards, and getting food out on time and on budget. You can take nice photos? Great! Want to be a wedding photographer? Then you'll be wanting insurance and a network of other pros in case you're ill on the day. You'll be multiply-RAIDing your hard drives, scouting venues, honing your interpersonal and organisational skills so that the wedding party have a great time and great pictures to take away and don't have to spend all day away from their guests. You can play SC2 well? Great! You want to be a pro-gamer? You want a sponsor to pay you and ferry you around from tournament to tournament? You want fans who'll tune in and maybe buy the products you endorse? Then you act like you give a shit, 100% of the time. That's part of the job. Read this. Seriously such a good post. oh wow,what a post indeed.
READ THIS PLEASE
|
mrbitter
It's dramatic, it's silly, and it's possibly a bit of an overraction, but ultimately, I think the Korean scene is making a statement that needed to be made. Play hard, or don't play at all, regardless of the circumstance.
|
On December 14 2011 23:19 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:14 Hubris wrote:On December 14 2011 22:59 bkrow wrote:On December 14 2011 22:54 Excomm wrote:
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was the tournament format."
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was GOM."
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was the build he used."
"It wasn't Naniwa, he didn't break any rules."
"It's not just Naniwa, everyone else does the same thing."
At what point does a player need to take responsibility for their actions, ever?
This generation is in for a shock when they get fired from their job for misconduct or poor performance and they complain, "but we didn't break any rules!"
If any other player had done the same thing, they would have gotten the same punishment (possibly worse for a player on a Korean team) so there is no discrimination here. You can argue the penalty is too harsh, but stop blaming everyone else for this decision. Naniwa has no one to blame but himself. The player is free to be punished by his team. It has nothing to do with GOM since he has not broken any of their rules. The rule they are applying is ridiculous and is being inconsistently applied across the board. GOM doesn't get to decide the standard of games that players put out; Don't talk down to "this generation" because it makes you sound like a pompous ass. Why can't you just accept the fact that Naniwa was being a disrespectful Ahole to the people that provided him with the chance to play? It's really that simple. You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you. He was invited to play interesting and entertaining games. He came and probe rushed on of the most anticipated matches of the tourny. He deserves EVERY bit of this punishment. Don't talk down to "Gom" because it makes you sound like a pompous ass. It's not "simple" - quite obviously there is a lot of things at play. Read the rule they are saying he broke; and then think if it makes sense. Or better yet, how many times something else has happened that fits that rule but was never punished. The game didn't count for anything so there was no gain/loss for either player. There were no sinister motives. If a player wants to probe rush and lose the game; that is their choice. He wasn't invited to play interesting and entertaining games. He was invited to play games. I am not talking down to GOM but i guess you find it hard to discern the difference.
It is that simple. You're trying to make it complicated to excuse his actions. It's their tourny, they felt insulted and that he was not a sportsman, so he doesn't get to play. He was invited to play with the understanding he had respect for the game he'd be playing, he did not, goodbye naniwa. Easy as that. He's like 0-10 in the GSL anyway, he probably wont even make it out of Code A up/down, never mind do well with a code S spot. He's not a code S player, you're not losing out on anything.
When you get a tourny you can make the rules, until then the largest and most popular tourny on the planet can kick BM players out and still be completely fine.
|
On December 14 2011 23:08 FaRess wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:47 Zandar wrote:On December 14 2011 22:37 Incomplet wrote:Poll: Did GOM make the right decision with Naniwa?No (170) 51% Yes, justice must be served! (123) 37% He needs to be punished but they went too far (42) 13% 335 total votes Your vote: Did GOM make the right decision with Naniwa? (Vote): Yes, justice must be served!
(Vote): He needs to be punished but they went too far
(Vote): No
Interesting poll, reading the thread it felt like people agreeing with GOM were in the majority Well if I had to vote in this poll I would have said no too, but I agree with gom decision to punish him.
Same here... the "justice" part in that poll, I do not care much about, so voting Yes would feel awkward. If I look at it from GOM's point of view, and have to more or less arbitrarily choose someone for a slot in a tournament, I can see why skipping over a certain player makes sense, and can understand that they rather look at their other options for that particular slot.
|
On December 14 2011 23:23 CEPEHDREI wrote:
mrbitter
It's dramatic, it's silly, and it's possibly a bit of an overraction, but ultimately, I think the Korean scene is making a statement that needed to be made. Play hard, or don't play at all, regardless of the circumstance.
Well, they could have told him before the match, not after. I would have no problem with this, if that happened.
|
On December 14 2011 23:22 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:21 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
How do I delete my account on gomtv.net? blind swedish fanboys are retards
So Im a retard? I bet im "smarter" then you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
