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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned! - Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM - Comparing people to Hitler - Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 22:58 TiTanIum_ wrote: I´m impressed that Bit-by-Bit never got banned from the GSL...
Because he tried to win at least. there is a difference in trying to win by cheese and throwing game on purpose to make a statement about your pride
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Poland3746 Posts
On December 14 2011 21:47 Emnjay808 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:43 nimdil wrote:On December 14 2011 21:42 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 21:40 Zandar wrote:On December 14 2011 21:39 baoluvboa wrote: You're an idiot if you think this is a race issue. A korean would have been punished just as much, if not more. They are forcing Korean moral standards upon a foreign player in an international tournament. it's the rules of the tournament Show this rule, please. Show me the rule where it says its okay to throw games. It isn't? He didn't do it because of match fixing. There was nothing on the line. There was no reason to play it seriously except - possibly - fans fun.
In greater sense what he did provided us more entertainment than the craziest quasi-serious game that he could have played. Sure - in a way it is half thriller and he didn't anticipate it but still. What is essential is that you can assume the worst of Nani and think he spitted on esport fans. But on the other hand you could assume that he didn't want to show nothing but his best in the given sitaution his best was way outside realm of possibility.
Also he apologized which I think is nice of him. Sure - it is still an example of bad manners but nothing near as bad as IdrA sometimes shows, especially as IdrA tend to disrespect his opponent directly whereas NaNiwa didn't disrespect anyone in particular.
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On December 14 2011 22:58 TiTanIum_ wrote: I´m impressed that Bit-by-Bit never got banned from the GSL... Bit-by-bit was trying to win with his stupid builds, and it worked for a while. Nani was trying to lose with the rush.
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I just love when people are saying that they won't buy new gom tickets for the new season because of Naniwa. He would have been killed anyway. (He is 0-10 in GSL games btw)
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On December 14 2011 22:59 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:58 TiTanIum_ wrote: I´m impressed that Bit-by-Bit never got banned from the GSL... At least he won, Naniwa is 0-10 in the GSL. MC went from Code S to Code A to Code B. Did he not deserve his Code S seed from MLG too?
On December 14 2011 22:59 Cush wrote: I just love when people are saying that they won't buy new gom tickets for the new season because of Naniwa. He would have been killed anyway. (He is 0-10 in GSL games btw) It's because their behavior, not just because Naniwa won't be there...obviously.
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On December 14 2011 22:57 Kfish wrote: Probe rush in BW against terran was viable since probes had more range and could be micro'd, there were also less workers at the beginning.
Probe rush in SC2 is useless, there is NO possible way to win the game unless your opponent is bronze, playing for the first time and doesn't know how to box his workers and a move.
Fact remains, that he probe rushed isn't a valid reason for kicking him out. You can try to twist it as much as you want, it's a valid strategy EVEN if it's for bronze players.
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On December 14 2011 22:56 drinkpepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:55 kazie wrote:On December 14 2011 22:47 drinkpepsi wrote:On December 14 2011 22:46 Pwnographics wrote:On December 14 2011 22:45 ChowChillaCharlie wrote:I think suspending was taking it waaay too far, a warning would've been sufficient for something as trivial as not wanting to play a game that had absolutely no meaning to it. But this is what pisses me off the most: "Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment" Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, kicking out NaNi cuz he ain't proffesional enough and then lower yourself to trash talking and lying.... Nice move GOM. It has meaning when you paid him $840 just to show up and play games to please viewers. Nobody was displeased at the 6 probe rush. I would gather most people who don't irrationally hate Naniwa found it funny, while others, like Idra; understood the rationale for his behavior. I can't even begin to imagine the "offended" mindset, I really can't. i was looking forward to this grudge match, esp after the interview event. i dont get how anyone can think throwing a game in a prestigious all star tournament is funny... Sorry, my friend, but professional players don't exist as your personal play things. The kid was dejected, and was playing a match that meant NOTHING. It was a ladder match. 6 probe rushing a ladder match isn't offensive; it's hilarious.
No, it's not hilarious. It's insulting to everyone who makes the tournament and games possible and the viewers who buy tickets money just to watch these games / NaNiwa.
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On December 14 2011 22:59 ReboundEU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:56 Pwnographics wrote:On December 14 2011 22:55 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 14 2011 22:53 DigitalisDestructi wrote:On December 14 2011 22:47 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 14 2011 22:42 baoluvboa wrote:On December 14 2011 22:41 drinkpepsi wrote:On December 14 2011 22:40 baoluvboa wrote:On December 14 2011 22:39 drinkpepsi wrote:On December 14 2011 22:35 Hubris wrote: Am I the only one reading some the racist, ignorant, and BM posts by people "boycotting" GOM's events feeling happy that these sort of people aren't going to be in the audience? I think I'm more inclined to buy tickets knowing that the fan base should be more mature than usual. I find it ironic many people here acting a fool are just as BM as Naniwa's actions at that, and previous tournies. The real irony here is that the biggest perpetrator of racism in this instance is GOM. How does this even make sense.. From past precedents, Korean players are treated just as harshly. No, they are not. And here's the thing; Naniwa didn't actually break rules. People have posted tons of incidents in this thread where a Korean actually broke the rules and wasn't punished. Naniwa 6 probe rushed. He used a bad strategy. Are we to ban incontrol from every tournament? There is not one incident where a Korean hasnt been punished. Maybe not by GOM but that is because their teams dealt with it and took them out of GSL before GOM could. Oh really ? On December 14 2011 21:54 zanga wrote: *Ban MC from all the (seemingly FUNNY, previously that is) things he's done. Including Thumbs down, Dancing outside the booth, Waving his finger at the camera.. and many more.
*Ban Bomber for having such a BM game against MC in some MLG (dont remember which). Putting down tons of command centers in the middle of the map, doing an "orange" with 10+ CC Scans and dropping mules so many times over.
*Ban NesTea since in the Blizzcon finals he so obviously threw his game away and was just trolling around.
*Ban Coca for match-fixing. He didnt get disqualified as far as I know - he simply left the spot because of decisions in their team. I can assume GOM would've cared, but so far had theyve said anything?
..more examples? To be honest, NaNiwa's Code S was revoked more because of the "throwing the game" factor, not "BM" factor. From those examples above, only NeaTea and CoCa have relevance. I don't the Blizzcon was managed by Gom, so only CoCa's example left. CoCa (and Byun) got punished pretty heavily by their teams, and I would imagine that Gom would've done something anyway if the punishments weren't handed out. Probe Rush =/= Throwing Game. Probe rush with one hand and not using your keyboard and 10 APM = throwing the game. So a 1 handed probe rushing = throw game..but a 300APM probe rushing = correct way to play a game? Cool good to know someone really knows how to probe rush correctly on these forums. Btw...does he also need to put each probe in a CTRL group for better micro? or stutter-step? Really interested. http://hydropan.linuxpl.info/naniwa.gif
This is a picture of someone trying to win with a probe rush right?
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On December 14 2011 22:59 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:59 Pwnographics wrote:On December 14 2011 22:58 TiTanIum_ wrote: I´m impressed that Bit-by-Bit never got banned from the GSL... At least he won, Naniwa is 0-10 in the GSL. MC went from Code S to Code A to Code B. Did he not deserve his Code S seed from MLG too?
What does that have to do with the guy your quoting?
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Theres no point in playing matches that don't even matter >.> come on GOM!
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On December 14 2011 22:58 ClassyMcderp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:54 lichter wrote: The people who think Naniwa did nothing wrong are pathetic
The people who believe that GOM's decision was deserved are equally pathetic
Naniwa has a poor attitude and seriously needs to grow up. However, he doesn't deserve the boot, only a warning. He did nothing wrong, if they wanted him to play the game serious fucking state that clear to him instead of kicking without a warning or any sign that his behavior wasn't appropriate.. The consequences of him skipping that game is way to high, and according to the rules he did nothing wrong. Fact still remains is that GOM can kick him out anyways which has been stated several times in this thread.
State that clear to him? Can't tell if trolling or out of mind. Isn't that like... OBVIOUS?
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My last thoughts on the whole thing because I'm tired of it.
The whole thing was handled poorly, no one is talking about the Blizzard Cup itself but instead the results of those who have succeeded and progressed in the tournament but are instead focusing on a match and act chosen in a match that has no bearing on the rest of the tournament. The results of this tournament will be second to this debacle, which is essentially over a showmatch that was denied to spectators.
GOM didn't even give a clear citation on what rule was broken, but instead a vague rule that could be construed to argue that in game BM'ing should give disqualifications (manner muling, /dancing, manner CC'ing is much more offensive?).
GOM should have at least spoken with Naniwa, given him a warning or a fine, even requested a public apology. But instead he was banned from the next season and publicly slandered (Unworthy of being a pro-gamer and an amateur prize hunter, seriously?). How you can request professionalism and respect and act in such a manner.
People talk as though his results have affected and tainted this whole tournament, when all he did was not want to play what was effectively show match.
Why would it be okay for him to have done a four gate with no intention to win, just because he would have had a 5% chance to win? Everyone would have known his intention anyway that he didn't care, but that wouldn't have mattered and this would never have happened, it would have been a weak game to end his 0-4 run.
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On December 14 2011 22:48 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:21 Starcraftmazter wrote:What is most troubling to me, is that most people are completely missing the key issues here. My email to GOM: Hello A few days ago, I purchased the GSL Premium Yearly Ticket (My account email address is the same as this and the same one as my PayPal account for verification). I am very unhappy with your completely unprofessional decision to punish Naniwa for doing nothing wrong against the rules, quite arbitrarily - while not punishing any Korean player, ever for any sort of "misbehavior". In particular the rule you are using as justification in regards to disrespect and offence of players can be used in many instances. For instance, in some GSTL, oGsMC went over and banged the both of his enemy player before the game. This is easily both offensive and disrespectful - yet no action was taken. This is but one prominent example, and I am not suggesting any action should have been taken; rather I am pointing out the unprofessional arbitrary enforcement of that rule, which seems to be applied against foreigners only. Furthermore, I find the insulting slur of "Mr Chae" on Naniwa very unprofessional and ill conceived, this along with other previous events clearly shows your bias against non-Korean players and casters. Overall, I am rather angered by the precedent that this sets, allowing GoMTV to disqualify, remove and otherwise take action against players based entirely on what you believe to be some form of bad play. Looking back at Blizzard Cup, LiquidHero also played very poorly (but unlike Naniwai who showed very impressive games, I would say all of Hero's games were very bad), and his last two games especially were very amateur in nature, as he stopped trying. This is not an objective matter either, and in particular in Hero's game against DRG, he have DRG a win - in a game which *actually mattered* to the outcome of the tournament, whereas the game between Naniwa and Nestea did not. I do not see any action taken again Hero for this? And I am a fan of Hero, but I am merely pointing out the double standards which exists in the GSL with Korean and non-Korean players. I cannot understand why you think the foreign audience doesn't see this - do you take us all for fools? My question is, where do you draw the line? What gives you the right to draw it arbitrarily so? And at what stage can a player be kicked out for cheesing? Why are certain types of cheese ok (like 6pool) whereas others not? Naniwai could have just as easily 4gated or cannon rushed and lost - all that would have achieved is wasting more of everyone's time. I would argue that in not wasting said time that Naniwai actually has far more respect for viewers and fans than you do, so I find your decision very arbitrary and reckless. Why for instance was BitbybitPrime not punished using this very same rule? Naniwa works extremely hard, practising more than the vast majority of players (Korean and non-Korean alike) to play the best games for his fans. This is more than I can say about what BitbyBit did - and the same goes for many other players over time. To then be punished and be insulted like so, is extremely unjustifiable. You clearly do not understand that people are all different, and some get quite emotional in some situations. Next is the issue of MLG seeds into GSL code S. You have now broken your partnership with MLG, as you have failed to keep your end of the bargain. This is a further slap in the face to foreigners and foreign tournaments. Even if Naniwa's seed eventually gets replaced by another foreigner, that doesn't change the fact that you are illegitimising a foreign tournament by taking away it's right to seed a player into GSL Code S, and instead stealing that decision for yourselves. It has also come to my attention that you have deleted comments you have made about revoking Naniwai's code S seed claiming he never had it. This does not exactly add to your credibility, as it is not exactly a secret that he did. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-the-gsl-create-groundbreaking-player-exchange-programThe rules are stated very clearly, he earned his code S spot in Providence. I am unsure why you would try to claim he did not - again, do you take foreigners for complete idiots? You must understand, at this stage this is far beyond the Naniwa vs Nestea game. Now the bias of GomTV against foreigners as well as the behaviour of the tournament organisers to do whatever they want regardless of the rules is put in question. Furthermore on that note, you have taken a complete lack of responsibility for designing a tournament system which allows for meaningless games that don't have any result on any outcome. In conclusion, I am very displeased with this. I have supported the GSL and payed for virtually every season and event single since I first learned about it in 2010. Even these days, I end up defending GomTV from all the bad comments about the stream quality being far worse than MLG and Dreamhack - even on "HD". I really love Tastosis and always tune in to watch them cast regardless of who's playing. But this is really the last straw for me, I cannot possibly support you any longer as it seems to me that you have lost your integrity. Unless you plan to fully reverse your decision to take Naniwai's code S spot, or hand out any meaningful punishment in general (perhaps you can make it as meaningless as the game for which he was punished?), I request a full refund. If this refund is not given, or this email disregarded, I will take it up with PayPal. As the year 2012 has not even started yet, I am sure there is zero argument against getting a full refund. Lastly, being a long-term supporter, I appreciate this email be passed to some form of management so that my feelings be conveyed to them - as I believe I have made a lot of good arguments, which really deserve to be thought about by the management of the GSL. Thank You --- Very well put.
That email is so ignorant. Players trolling celebrations is nothing new and is entertainment. Should a wrestler be banned because he cussed out his rival on his mic? No. Would you ban him if he broke a chair over his own head and lay on the ground acting unconcious until someone took him out? Yes.
CoCa earned his Code S spot and lost it in a similar fashion, he brought dishonor to his team and was accused of "match fixing". There are no double standards, so many people were outraged about that as well but the organizers have a responsibility to the integrity of their company to insure that their high standards of broadcasting are kept.
Your reference to BitbyBit or any other cheeser make no sense WHAT SO EVER. 7 probe rush is not viable cheese. Its not a deadly all-in designed to kill your opponent in one blow. Yes, a marine SCV all-in was not the classiest way to win games, but hey, it got the job done, Rain managed to make GSL finals with it, BitbyBit won some matches, it was ENTERTAINING. It wasnt a letdown in the sense that the Nani-Nestea game was over by the time the viewers saw what was going on. If Naniwa had attempted to do regenerate micro, rallied more probes, tried to focus fire some drones and actually win that game, ok its understandable, he was trying to embarass NesTea with an "unwinnable" strategy. If you watch the VOD, he LITERALLY A-moved his probes crossmap, took his hands off the keyboard and mouse and chilled out waiting for it to end. That is not professionalism.
Again your HerO reference is dumb-founded as well, GOM is not banning Nani for being amateur and showing bad games, its for the lack of effort, breech of contract and lack of professionalism. Your allowed to do whatever you want in-game, as a tournament of champions its not suprising HerO was outclassed but hey, thats life. Atleast he didnt A-Move suicide probes.
This could only have gotten worse if Nani had merely typed "gg" and left 2 seconds in.
To all you guys saying this is ridiculous and your never buying GOM tickets again, go ahead, leave and never come back. Your lack of maturity and your blind support for any "foreigner" is disgraceful. Show some goddamn respect to our eSport.
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On December 14 2011 22:59 deathzz wrote: i dunno to laugh or "not want to live on this planet anymore" when ppl call gom rascist. if it was a korean player who did that in dat match, we would probably never see that guy in any gom organised tournament
Explain to me why Naniwas ( Swede) code S spot didn't go to another Swede in korea but went to Idra and Sen instead?
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On December 14 2011 22:54 Excomm wrote: "It wasn't Naniwa, it was the tournament format." "It wasn't Naniwa, it was GOM." "It wasn't Naniwa, it was the build he used." "It wasn't Naniwa, he didn't break any rules." "It's not just Naniwa, everyone else does the same thing."
At what point does a player need to take responsibility for their actions, ever?
This generation is in for a shock when they get fired from their job for misconduct or poor performance and they complain, "but we didn't break any rules!"
If any other player had done the same thing, they would have gotten the same punishment (possibly worse for a player on a Korean team) so there is no discrimination here. You can argue the penalty is too harsh, but stop blaming everyone else for this decision. Naniwa has no one to blame but himself.
One could argue that it would be irresponsible of him to play a meaningless game, knowing that he had no motivation of doing so, giving an entire community a wrong impression of his current level of skill. In effect, Naniwa were put in a situation in which any act would dissapoint a fair amount of people. Yet you argue that he - not GOM - is responsible for this?
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Unhappy about the decision? Tweet @GOMTV and @WoWnStarcraft or email them, let them know some other way that you are unhappy, if you feel really badass tag their sponsors in the post as well so they know you're not messing around
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On December 14 2011 22:54 ChowChillaCharlie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:52 Pwnographics wrote:On December 14 2011 22:51 ChowChillaCharlie wrote:On December 14 2011 22:46 Pwnographics wrote:On December 14 2011 22:45 ChowChillaCharlie wrote:I think suspending was taking it waaay too far, a warning would've been sufficient for something as trivial as not wanting to play a game that had absolutely no meaning to it. But this is what pisses me off the most: "Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment" Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, kicking out NaNi cuz he ain't proffesional enough and then lower yourself to trash talking and lying.... Nice move GOM. It has meaning when you paid him $840 just to show up and play games to please viewers. No, it had no impact on the tournament as they both were out and gone. It was meaningless. If they had a good game it would have pleased the viewers which is the main purpose of the tournament? The main purpose of the tournament was to show the best of the best, not a forced mediocre game from two players that was already out and gone.
While talking about the purpose of the tournament is complete speculation, isn't it reasonable to assume that they wanted to show the best of the best PLAY against each other? Emphasis on play?
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On December 14 2011 23:00 Toppp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:56 drinkpepsi wrote:On December 14 2011 22:55 kazie wrote:On December 14 2011 22:47 drinkpepsi wrote:On December 14 2011 22:46 Pwnographics wrote:On December 14 2011 22:45 ChowChillaCharlie wrote:I think suspending was taking it waaay too far, a warning would've been sufficient for something as trivial as not wanting to play a game that had absolutely no meaning to it. But this is what pisses me off the most: "Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment" Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, kicking out NaNi cuz he ain't proffesional enough and then lower yourself to trash talking and lying.... Nice move GOM. It has meaning when you paid him $840 just to show up and play games to please viewers. Nobody was displeased at the 6 probe rush. I would gather most people who don't irrationally hate Naniwa found it funny, while others, like Idra; understood the rationale for his behavior. I can't even begin to imagine the "offended" mindset, I really can't. i was looking forward to this grudge match, esp after the interview event. i dont get how anyone can think throwing a game in a prestigious all star tournament is funny... Sorry, my friend, but professional players don't exist as your personal play things. The kid was dejected, and was playing a match that meant NOTHING. It was a ladder match. 6 probe rushing a ladder match isn't offensive; it's hilarious. No, it's not hilarious. It's insulting to everyone who makes the tournament and games possible and the viewers who buy tickets money just to watch these games / NaNiwa. That's the thing - it's not. If you feel insulted because someone played a funny ladder game, I feel unendingly bad for you.
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On December 14 2011 22:55 dolvlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:54 Xdivine wrote: From what I hear, Naniwa got paid around $900 to play his games. He didn't play one of the games, basically getting paid for doing 3/4 of what he was supposed to. What if he simply probe rushed every game? He'd be getting $900 for showing up and putting 6~ minutes of.. effort? Something had to be done.
Think of it like if you were supposed to have a football game played live and one team simply decided to put 1 person on the field that simply runs back and forth like their head is chopped off. The network that they're on would be FURIOUS. You can't expect people to stay tuned in for something completely ridiculous. At least if the team came out and played a game people would have something to watch for their 1-2 hours of the game instead of switching channels. No, no NO. He was paid $900 to compete in this tournament. Not to play all 4 games. He could have conceded his last match and still gotten paid. You don't know what you're talking about. He was payed $900 to PLAY in the tournament. Playing 3/4 of the tournament doesn't exactly sound like what he's being paid for. If I paid you to build me a house and you built me 3/4 of a house I'd be pissed too. Either play all the games or don't go at all.
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Question, does probe rush beat 6 pool? I've never tried it before but seems like it might if the probes are microed perfectly (and pulled here and there to regen shields).
I know he was just throwing the game but I wonder if this situation would be COMPLETELY different if somehow he pulled off a miraculous win (and the only win I can think of is if nestea went 6 pool and only had 5 drones vs 6 probes).
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