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NaNiwa not invited to Code S - Page 157

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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.

Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum.
Rekcinad
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands23 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3121
Imagine two football teams in a Champion's League group having to play each other while both teams no longer have a chance to influence the outcome of the group. If one of these teams started deliberately scoring own goals just because the match has no meaning for the eventual outcome, you can bet there will be severe punishments.

It's the principle here that counts. Allowing actions like this, even though it has no impact on the tournament results, would set a negative precedent for a sport that considers itself a professional scene.
Waah
Profile Joined February 2011
United States120 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3122
He should have forfeited the match if he planned to lose on purpose to begin with. Besides that, he has no faults.
snafoo
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand1615 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3123
On December 14 2011 22:53 bkrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 22:50 Skwid1g wrote:
On December 14 2011 18:42 Niyanyo wrote:
Wow... I was about to purchase a year pass with the new model, but this is just wrong. It was as much or more fault of the tournament as it was for Naniwa. If this goes thru I am not purchasing de pass as protest.


And I'll buy one to make up for it.

GOM chose to do the right thing even though they knew it would be an unpopular decision, good for them. It's not like he's permanently banned from the GSL.

Besides, I'd rather see Sen in Code S than Naniwa anyway, so it doesn't detract from the viewing pleasure at all imo.

How is this the right thing? The punishment is complete disproportionate to the infraction; I honestly think the only ones that find this appropriate must be anti-fans of Naniwa because his actions don't justify the response by gom.

He deserves a warning; and barely deserves it at that compared to all the other "BM" that goes on. I think the last sentence is the real reason you are happy.


Maybe Naniwa will think before he does dumb stuff in the future? (eg; "joke tournament" on MLG mainstage)
Snake Grunger
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada61 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3124
The GSL business model strives upon players showing good games for viewers to want to tune into and pay for to see.

But if we look back - at the games of IdrA vs Jinro in a previous GSL, IdrA also gave up pretty early on games he thought were unwinnable (double bunker rush on bottom of his ramp on close-spawn Metalopolis), two factors that have come to become pretty obvious imbalance (close spawn removed, and neutral depot added to prevent such shenanigans) and since corrected for pro play (and partly even on the ladder !)

In retrospect, yeah I think IdrA at least tried winning against Jinro, and his early gg gave place to some pro player drama, rather than Naniwa just throwin' his game down the toilet and simply upsetting every viewer that was hoping to see if Naniwa could live up to his previous two Nestea victories.
DOODLEcraft anyone ? http://doodlecraft.imgur.com/ -- @doodlecraft on Twitter
Darksoldierr
Profile Joined May 2010
Hungary2012 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3125
On December 14 2011 22:49 Frankon wrote:
Man i think ill get in trouble by posting gifs here but....

The game:
[image loading]
The player during game:
[image loading]

If you guys still say that Naniwa play was legitimate and didn't disrespect the viewers and his opponent you might as well go to Seoul stand before a random korean and spit on his face. (In reality dont even think about doing this)


heh nice post, thanks
What do humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.
Pwnographics
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand1097 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3126
On December 14 2011 22:55 XRaDiiX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 22:53 DigitalisDestructi wrote:
On December 14 2011 22:47 XRaDiiX wrote:
On December 14 2011 22:42 baoluvboa wrote:
On December 14 2011 22:41 drinkpepsi wrote:
On December 14 2011 22:40 baoluvboa wrote:
On December 14 2011 22:39 drinkpepsi wrote:
On December 14 2011 22:35 Hubris wrote:
Am I the only one reading some the racist, ignorant, and BM posts by people "boycotting" GOM's events feeling happy that these sort of people aren't going to be in the audience? I think I'm more inclined to buy tickets knowing that the fan base should be more mature than usual. I find it ironic many people here acting a fool are just as BM as Naniwa's actions at that, and previous tournies.

The real irony here is that the biggest perpetrator of racism in this instance is GOM.


How does this even make sense..
From past precedents, Korean players are treated just as harshly.

No, they are not. And here's the thing; Naniwa didn't actually break rules. People have posted tons of incidents in this thread where a Korean actually broke the rules and wasn't punished. Naniwa 6 probe rushed. He used a bad strategy. Are we to ban incontrol from every tournament?


There is not one incident where a Korean hasnt been punished. Maybe not by GOM but that is because their teams dealt with it and took them out of GSL before GOM could.


Oh really ?

On December 14 2011 21:54 zanga wrote:
*Ban MC from all the (seemingly FUNNY, previously that is) things he's done. Including Thumbs down, Dancing outside the booth, Waving his finger at the camera.. and many more.

*Ban Bomber for having such a BM game against MC in some MLG (dont remember which). Putting down tons of command centers in the middle of the map, doing an "orange" with 10+ CC Scans and dropping mules so many times over.

*Ban NesTea since in the Blizzcon finals he so obviously threw his game away and was just trolling around.

*Ban Coca for match-fixing. He didnt get disqualified as far as I know - he simply left the spot because of decisions in their team. I can assume GOM would've cared, but so far had theyve said anything?

..more examples?


To be honest, NaNiwa's Code S was revoked more because of the "throwing the game" factor, not "BM" factor. From those examples above, only NeaTea and CoCa have relevance. I don't the Blizzcon was managed by Gom, so only CoCa's example left. CoCa (and Byun) got punished pretty heavily by their teams, and I would imagine that Gom would've done something anyway if the punishments weren't handed out.



Probe Rush =/= Throwing Game.


Probe rush with one hand and not using your keyboard and 10 APM = throwing the game.
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3127
On December 14 2011 22:42 Mirror0423 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 22:37 bkrow wrote:
What an outrageous and ridiculous decision from GOM. Way to react to the knee-jerk responses from an online community. Naniwa said he was not in a position to play his best, so did a strategy that he thought would be quick and easy. The worst part is now GOM has set a precedent that allows them to decide how much effort a player must put in to avoid getting banned.

Was Nani's build "unethical"? Yes. Was it wrong? No. I feel that players should be able to play the way the wish - no matter if it is cheesing, probe rushing or a long macro game. As long as Nani isn't actually cheating then why should he get punished for what he did? This is a pretty stupid infringement on Nani's rights as a player

Then you would approve of a player who's "mad" not leaving the game, and just building pylons all over the map delaying the inevitable since that's how he 'wants to play"? Where do you draw the line? It's better to have a vague line than no line at all imo. I don't want Naniwa staying in a game after his main is trashed and his opponent has 12 bases, while naniwa just runs around the map building pylons all over the place untill he's eliminated.

Fantasy GG timing floating buildings, Huk bming with pylons and 100 other examples, let players be players, let us see their emotions in game for worse and for better.

Naniwa was punished because Esports in korea are now in trouble, so we have to act "properly" with artificial rules, we have to preserve the business side.

FBH was running around deafeted Savior , throwing something on others booth, running half naked on a beach and people loved it. However Koreans CANNOT stand when someone who DOESNT want to play, show it, shows his true emotion his human side, which is not funny, not theatrical, and whats the worst is critical to tournament, who cares if there is truth to it (playing pointless match after being exhausted) entairtainmant is most important value. Thats what we call a double standard. Gom needs to step up their game, Naniwa needs to gain some PR lesson.
Stork[gm]
drinkpepsi
Profile Joined December 2011
United States16 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3128
On December 14 2011 22:55 kazie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 22:47 drinkpepsi wrote:
On December 14 2011 22:46 Pwnographics wrote:
On December 14 2011 22:45 ChowChillaCharlie wrote:
I think suspending was taking it waaay too far, a warning would've been sufficient for something as trivial as not wanting to play a game that had absolutely no meaning to it.

But this is what pisses me off the most:
"Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment"


Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, kicking out NaNi cuz he ain't proffesional enough and then lower yourself to trash talking and lying....

Nice move GOM.


It has meaning when you paid him $840 just to show up and play games to please viewers.

Nobody was displeased at the 6 probe rush. I would gather most people who don't irrationally hate Naniwa found it funny, while others, like Idra; understood the rationale for his behavior. I can't even begin to imagine the "offended" mindset, I really can't.


i was looking forward to this grudge match, esp after the interview event. i dont get how anyone can think throwing a game in a prestigious all star tournament is funny...

Sorry, my friend, but professional players don't exist as your personal play things. The kid was dejected, and was playing a match that meant NOTHING. It was a ladder match. 6 probe rushing a ladder match isn't offensive; it's hilarious.
Algol
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden9 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3129
On December 14 2011 22:40 BoomNasty wrote:
People will forget this when the second season comes around. GSL had to do something about this guys. Get over it. You don't get away easy with disrespecting a game. Coca lost his spot for disrespecting the game (granted its not the same thing) but you cant disrespect the game.

If I remember correctly, GOM did not take away Coca's spot. His team (slayers) made him lave the tournament. Big difference.
Mycl
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia1370 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3130
Gotta thank the guy who linked the twitter feed for @gomtv. I don't think I have seen so many sub 5 tweet egg accounts raging at someone
zanga
Profile Joined September 2011
659 Posts
December 14 2011 13:56 GMT
#3131
On December 14 2011 22:53 Velr wrote:
Lol at the people comparing this to a thumbs down or something MC did.

Thumbs-Down and other pregame banther = SHOW = good for the entertainment
Actively throwing a game = LOSING ON PURPOSE = bad for the entertainment.


Do you not see how that is up for interpretation? If MC played Idra in GSL Semi final, MC wins.. and then thumbs down Idra etc live in front of the camera - Can you imagine how many that offends? Or when he danced around in the studio after knocking out some other korean favorite. (theres more examples btw)

Mr. Chae, supposedly the "leader of gomtv", calling naniwa something he clearly does not deserve on twitter - Can you imagine how many that offends?

Therefore GOMTV is not consistent at all, ... and this is just one point Im making.
(:
Phenrock
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 13:57:25
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3132
He definitely deserves some form of punishment, but I can't think of any other form of punishment to appease the Koreans. It's a korean tournament and their culture warrants more respect and honour.

A warning like a slap on the wrist is laughable. A fine maybe, but these guys don't earn that much for fines to be warranted.

Maybe move his Code S spot down to code A?

Any way Naniwa certainly makes a geat villain in SC2, it's becoming a pantomine/pro wrestling entertainment...
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3133
On December 14 2011 22:54 lichter wrote:
The people who think Naniwa did nothing wrong are pathetic

The people who believe that GOM's decision was deserved are equally pathetic

Naniwa has a poor attitude and seriously needs to grow up. However, he doesn't deserve the boot, only a warning.



Naniwa will only grow up when his actions finally have consequences. Now they do. Let's see if Naniwa grows up.
mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3134
On December 14 2011 22:56 Algol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 22:40 BoomNasty wrote:
People will forget this when the second season comes around. GSL had to do something about this guys. Get over it. You don't get away easy with disrespecting a game. Coca lost his spot for disrespecting the game (granted its not the same thing) but you cant disrespect the game.

If I remember correctly, GOM did not take away Coca's spot. His team (slayers) made him lave the tournament. Big difference.

Maybe if SlayerS hadn't done it, GOM would have, it's impossible to know.
NHY
Profile Joined October 2010
1013 Posts
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3135
On December 14 2011 22:54 lichter wrote:
The people who think Naniwa did nothing wrong are pathetic

The people who believe that GOM's decision was deserved are equally pathetic

Naniwa has a poor attitude and seriously needs to grow up. However, he doesn't deserve the boot, only a warning.


He didn't get banned. He just got his invitation taken away.
GodZo
Profile Joined November 2011
Italy224 Posts
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3136
On December 14 2011 22:45 Pwnographics wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 22:44 GodZo wrote:
I disagree with GOM this time.

1) What about "Mules Throws" at the end of game?

2) What about many games thrown in less evident mode.

What about Stephano vs Cloud in DreamHack? Stephano didn't throw his games? This is just an example


Caution! Big money can ruin a game. SC2 is always a game, and that specific match was not important for most people.


I think is much worse when one player lose, simulating to play normally. This happens, this is a game, the other question is:

3) Could be a right of a player, to waste a match? or simply one player could not to play at his best.


I disapproved the rush of Naniwa but really was not important for the tourmanet and it was an entertaining match, very funny.

I hope GOM tolerate more in future, that remains a game. That match was not important, and Naniwa has not done anything serious.

In the end.

Just Naniwa played a bad strategy, that's all.


When you pay someone $840 just to show up and play games for a tournament you'd at least expect them to play them out in full.




Naniwa was not simply invited, he played this tournament because he placed 2nd in MLG Providence.2011. Also he tried so hard, and tried to win the Blizzard Cup. Unlucky he lost, and the last game was not decisive for him or Nestea.
프로토스, Yellow, GdZ
trucane
Profile Joined January 2009
United States553 Posts
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3137
On December 14 2011 22:56 Waah wrote:
He should have forfeited the match if he planned to lose on purpose to begin with. Besides that, he has no faults.


Problem is that he wasn't allowed to forfeit thats why he did what he did.
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 13:59:01
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3138
On December 14 2011 22:55 XRaDiiX wrote:
Probe Rush =/= Throwing Game.


Yes it does......O.o

I'm really glad that GOM is making an example of Naniwa like this, hopefully some of this will transfer over to the foreigner scene. No player is bigger than the game, and when they disrespect the game, they should be punished for it.
Eury
Profile Joined December 2008
Sweden1126 Posts
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3139
What Chae said was way more unprofessional than what Naniwa did. Chae dragged his whole organization down into the gutter and I sure do hope that will have some repercussion.

I suggest suspending Chae for one season of GSL.
Starcraftmazter
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia71 Posts
December 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#3140
On December 14 2011 22:22 Frankon wrote:
No koreans invited to MLG Providence = no Code A and S seeds for foreigners. Simple as that.


That is not what the GSL-MLG partnership rules say. And we all know that GOMTV is big on rules - right? Right?

Tehcnically you already started using the package. You got HQ and vods for Blizzard Cup as part of it.


Technically, this one-week long joke of a tournament is not worth $140.

I also like how you ignored everything else I said.

On December 14 2011 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:
Lol man, you have no clue. There is no valid arguments in this letter. Your text is obviously biased and your examples bad.
You can either expect no answer or a very polite "you got no clue" answer.


On December 14 2011 22:27 Squeegy wrote:
That email made me facepalm. It is that full of stupid. Particularly on those parts about bias against foreigners and PayPal refund. Good luck with the latter (it actually made me chuckle a little).


On December 14 2011 22:27 buzzkill568 wrote:
The sad part is. I read all of that. The even sadder part is that you didn't. Because you are a complete idiot if you did. Gomtv HAD to do something. Please just stfu and read your own shitty wall of text next time.



Do any of you actually have any counter-arguments or do you just go around herping and derping?


On December 14 2011 22:48 Scrubby-onE wrote:
Are you serious? Do you even know the rules? Or are you just spouting nonsense out of your ass? It's a HUGE rule that you cannot throw a match, and any match deemed suspicious gets thoroughly investigated. Naniwa 7 worker rushed, took his hands off his keyboard and everything. He unquestionably threw that match.


1. If you have a problem with matching-throwing, then perhaps you should consider all the other matches that have been thrown, instead of singling this one out based on how it was done.

2. This match did not matter at all. Not even one single bit. None.

What GomTV is doing, is highly unethical. There are many matches that get thrown - and they do not ever even get a mention.


On December 14 2011 22:48 Scrubby-onE wrote:You think just because he's a foreigner he should be an exception? People pay money and spend their time traveling to the studio to watch great games. I don't even know why you Naniwa fans aren't even upset about it.


I am not a Naniwa fan, I do not care for Naniwa. What I see, is a significant problem with the integrity of GomTV.

On December 14 2011 22:48 Scrubby-onE wrote: Just throwing a game like that is pretty much a slap in the face for anyone who supports Naniwa, it means he doesn't give a fuck about showing you awesome games, he just cares about himself and his time.


Of course, that is why he practices harder than any other foreigner. Because he doesn't care about showing awesome games, and he just cares about his time. It's all clear now.

On December 14 2011 22:48 Scrubby-onE wrote:It's not worth to show you guys a game because he doesn't get anything out of it.


If you want to be like that, then there is a vast array of players you should be taking issue with, and it needs to be discussed and dealt with as the broader issue which it is - not by singling out one player as a scapegoat.

On December 14 2011 22:48 Scrubby-onE wrote:GOM being biased against? /facepalm, Oh god.. If ANYTHING, GOM is biased towards foreigners to improve their international base. How many foreigners actually legitimately qualified for Code A? As in going through Code B tournament, the ridiculous tough tournament that Hero, Dongraegu, theStC, etc failed many times before finally getting through? Like pretty much only Jinro, and IdrA? Everyone else failed. Yet we see so many foreigners being let in simply because theyre foreigners, SeleCT, Sheth, Naniwa, SaSe, the list goes on. They have spots where better Korean players should be, yet cannot because of how hard code B is. GOM even built foreigners a fuckin place to live for christ sake.


This has nothing to do with code B being hard, but rather the format of the GSL. Nobody wants to come out to Korea for months and try their hand at getting to code S which is the only place they can have a chance at decent prize money, when there are frequent foreign tournaments on every continent.

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