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On October 26 2011 05:29 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Added a unit that goes around and autoattacks. Even though we all know it's a Goliath, they prefer to not call it a Goliath and make it look worse. Terrible addition from the spectator standpoints. The goliath was always needed. In WOL development they said T needs the goliath, but if they had it, then no one would use the thor. They gave the thor AA splash and range, but it is just too big of a unit model and too expensive. T just needs a goliath, no way around it.
Is the Warhound going to be able to fill that role? Or is it inadequate to the task at this point? Was it worth it for Blizzard to mock up a new model and name, or should they have stuck with the Goliath in an attempt to appease the (admittedly somewhat unappeasable) BW fans?
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^ The goliath was good against light units like lings. The new warhound is not, but it is good against mech units (read: not armored). So it's a little different, but I suppose they could've thrown it back to the goliath, like "Goliath v.2, now with new guns!".
I'm sure they will tweak the speed and range as necessary, but it's a goliath with thor-like splash, or a thor with goliath-like mobility and speed.
Against Protoss, it's like a marauder though (lol). It's supposed to have application in TvT, being the better 'thor' as in being really good at killing siege tank lines.
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United States12 Posts
On October 26 2011 09:04 Reaper51 wrote:
I think 367 pages of pointless debate is enough for this thread, the units you saw at blizzcon are not final. People should wait until the beta before making up their minds on the units seen there.
I don't think people are "making their minds up" about much of anything. It's possible to talk about the units in theory without drawing conclusions about how the game will end up, especially since most of us have a good general idea of what we think each race "needs." Furthermore, there are some reasonable assumptions you CAN make about these units and how they'll be in the retail release, because while they may change things like damage, HP, cost, etc... the units are unlikely to be fundamentally changed to serve some other role. The Tempest is probably going to end up as an anti-air AoE flying unit deep in the tech tree, just like it is now, even if some of the numbers change. You can have a reasonable conversation given just that much information.
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United States7166 Posts
does anyone know if the locusts produced from the swarm host move faster on creep? and is it a significant boost? cus theyre pretty slow right now off creep.. fuuuuck should have tested this way more
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On October 26 2011 13:06 Zelniq wrote:
does anyone know if the locusts produced from the swarm host move faster on creep? and is it a significant boost? cus theyre pretty slow right now off creep.. fuuuuck should have tested this way more
Speculation, but I'm almost positive they would. They are painfully slow 
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Good job Blizz, great units, I like what the game is becoming. I didnt like the esthetics of the warhound tho, looks like a crippled robot....
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sorry to bring this up again, but someone mentioned that the developers were still considering more units. I wasn't around for WoL beta, but is it possible some of these units will be removed and replaced with even more different units??
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anything is possible during alpha
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I don't know if anyone knows but can the Shredder killed burrowed moving units or units it can't see?
ex: burrowed roaches/infestors or DT's
Sorry if this was already answered.
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I'll add my take on what is the Protoss-units, since those are the ones I've been bothered to take an in-depth look at as of now.
The Oracle seems to be available at Stargate-tech and is a unit that does not deal any damage. Today, what we see from the Stargate in any MU is the Void Ray into Phoenix in PvZ, more or less. Therefore, I actually welcome this as a mid- to late-game unit. It probably won't been seen earlier in any case seeing as Stargate (at least nowadays) is the third and least visited tech path.
However, it is yet another gimmicky Protoss unit, and that's the part I might be sceptical about. I don't dislike it's purposes (although it is a very strong recon unit, and Protoss has always had an easy time scouting past 10 minutes anyway) but it feels like it has a potential to let Protoss be even more reactionary - especially with the Warp Gates and being able to replace at least 40 food of army supply late-game in a minute to give the best support for the tech units. Hopefully it will have a hefty gas-cost so you can't just sac one for intel.
Yes, you might have noticed this fallacy of mine too. If I deemed the Oracle gimmicky, then what is the Replicant? It is the Swiss Army knife amongst eating cutlery.
The Replicant is extremely unreliable for the opponent, far from an unscouted building or an added tech path. In its current state it also acquires ALL upgrades Depending on the replication range and the attention (or sheer luck) of the opponent he could in a PvZ MU find ten or so Infested Terrans in his mineral-line or in PvT a cloaked Banshee in his respective mineral-line.
However, it all lies in the restrictions put on it. Its current cost of 200/200 makes it imperative to not replicate T1-units what-so-ever. You could replicate 4 Helions and a Medivac for a drop, but that is a 1000/1000 to 500/100 trade-off. This means that high-tech units will be the ones targeted... This is too many scenarios to predict, and there are so many more things that need tending to than a unit that will be limited by so many restrictions that it will be under-used (or abused if there is a lack of restrictions) in the end.
Hopefully we will see this unit scratched, amongst with a few more things seen at Blizzcon (like the inexplicable burrowed Baneling-movement forcing detectors at your mineral lines at all times. A Baneling suddenly became so much more volatile and I cannot express enough resentment towards this change.
The Tempest is also a cool unit, but once again a unit passively forces the third tech path to this time have what seems to be the least bothersome anti-air harass unit... With the addition of the Oracle I doubt that we'll see the Robo being so standard though, so that's always a nice thing.
It seems to be the hard-counter to Mutas, which is about it. Brood Lords too, I guess. Nice addition but it seems to have the capabilities as a few Phoenixes. Meh, I won't complain.
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I don't know if anyone knows but can the Shredder killed burrowed moving units or units it can't see?
ex: burrowed roaches/infestors or DT's
Sorry if this was already answered.
Yes.
The Replicant is extremely unreliable for the opponent, far from an unscouted building or an added tech path. In its current state it also acquires ALL upgrades Depending on the replication range and the attention (or sheer luck) of the opponent he could in a PvZ MU find ten or so Infested Terrans in his mineral-line or in PvT a cloaked Banshee in his respective mineral-line.
Replicant is just to address the problem of Protoss not having enough strategies. Yes, the replicant is expensive and probably useless. But you can't tell me that it won't be responsible for at least ONE new strategy for Protoss - maybe warp prism + infestor for worker harass, or replicating a shredder and using it for map control.
Blizzard said they feel Protoss doesn't really have enough strategies. The replicant is hopefully to solve this. It won't add to the deathball, they think the Protoss army is pretty much fine, but that Protoss lacks strategic options.
Hopefully we will see this unit scratched, amongst with a few more things seen at Blizzcon (like the inexplicable burrowed Baneling-movement forcing detectors at your mineral lines at all times. A Baneling suddenly became so much more volatile and I cannot express enough resentment towards this change.
It's a hive tech upgrade that's expensive and takes a long time to upgrade. I think as a T/P I'd much rather see a Zerg go for banelings in the super late game, instead of getting ultralisks or broodlords. The change is pretty useless, but may make things interesting. That's all. Blizzard said it could be completely imbalanced, but they want to see what happens with it. Jesus christ, chill out, we aren't even close to alpha yet, they are planning on more new units and much more changes. HOTS won't even be out by next blizzcon.
You already need detectors at your mineral lines due to mutalisks (missile turrets/cannons), infestors, and roaches. Burrowed banelings won't make anything different for terran, it just makes it easier to use baneling land mines for Zerg.
The Tempest is also a cool unit, but once again a unit passively forces the third tech path to this time have what seems to be the least bothersome anti-air harass unit... With the addition of the Oracle I doubt that we'll see the Robo being so standard though, so that's always a nice thing.
It's not an anti-harass unit, its to deal with those lategame scenarios where 'the zerg has 40-50 mutas'. You don't see 40-50 mutas in ZvP in top level play, so obviously this is for the lower level players. It will be great at killing overlords and air control in general zvp though, like a stronger void ray.
Yes, it's like a super phoenix.
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Ok, i've got a couple of questions.
1. Blizzard made it clear that the replicator could get the abilities of a unit even if the opponent didn't research them. In BW, if you mind controlled a unit that had an ability that ability was then researched for you (eg. If you mind control a tank with siege mode in BW, later on if you get an scv and then build up to make tanks, you don't have to research siege mode). If, in a pvp, you go for a robo build, is it possible to
a. Replicate an enemy zealot and get charge researched for your zealots and
b. Replicate an enemy stalker and get blink researched for your stalkers
2. The shredder does an AoE damage attack. What happens when you cast the cloud of the Viper over the shredder?
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Can someone do some quick math for me.
What is the net loss/gain for units for each race?
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1. Blizzard made it clear that the replicator could get the abilities of a unit even if the opponent didn't research them. In BW, if you mind controlled a unit that had an ability that ability was then researched for you (eg. If you mind control a tank with siege mode in BW, later on if you get an scv and then build up to make tanks, you don't have to research siege mode). If, in a pvp, you go for a robo build, is it possible to
a. Replicate an enemy zealot and get charge researched for your zealots and
b. Replicate an enemy stalker and get blink researched for your stalkers
Only for that single replicated unit. If you replicate a zealot, that zealot will have charge, but it wont be like the rest will get it.
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The only thing I surely don't and won't like about this expansion is the replicant.
It's kind of funny for me that in an argument about for ex. MULEs/larva/chrono and how MULE is better than the rest they say that races are not supposed to be the same/symetrical or whatever and at the same time they add an unit like Replicant to the game. Wtf...
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I take back my vote, voted no to the new protoss units, but after thinking about it, the oracle and replicator seem like really good ideas. Artosis won me over in SOTG too would love to play around with those two.
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United States7166 Posts
On October 26 2011 15:19 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I don't know if anyone knows but can the Shredder killed burrowed moving units or units it can't see?
ex: burrowed roaches/infestors or DT's
Sorry if this was already answered. Yes. Show nested quote +The Replicant is extremely unreliable for the opponent, far from an unscouted building or an added tech path. In its current state it also acquires ALL upgrades Depending on the replication range and the attention (or sheer luck) of the opponent he could in a PvZ MU find ten or so Infested Terrans in his mineral-line or in PvT a cloaked Banshee in his respective mineral-line. Replicant is just to address the problem of Protoss not having enough strategies. Yes, the replicant is expensive and probably useless. But you can't tell me that it won't be responsible for at least ONE new strategy for Protoss - maybe warp prism + infestor for worker harass, or replicating a shredder and using it for map control. Blizzard said they feel Protoss doesn't really have enough strategies. The replicant is hopefully to solve this. It won't add to the deathball, they think the Protoss army is pretty much fine, but that Protoss lacks strategic options. Show nested quote +Hopefully we will see this unit scratched, amongst with a few more things seen at Blizzcon (like the inexplicable burrowed Baneling-movement forcing detectors at your mineral lines at all times. A Baneling suddenly became so much more volatile and I cannot express enough resentment towards this change. It's a hive tech upgrade that's expensive and takes a long time to upgrade. I think as a T/P I'd much rather see a Zerg go for banelings in the super late game, instead of getting ultralisks or broodlords. The change is pretty useless, but may make things interesting. That's all. Blizzard said it could be completely imbalanced, but they want to see what happens with it. Jesus christ, chill out, we aren't even close to alpha yet, they are planning on more new units and much more changes. HOTS won't even be out by next blizzcon. You already need detectors at your mineral lines due to mutalisks (missile turrets/cannons), infestors, and roaches. Burrowed banelings won't make anything different for terran, it just makes it easier to use baneling land mines for Zerg. Show nested quote +The Tempest is also a cool unit, but once again a unit passively forces the third tech path to this time have what seems to be the least bothersome anti-air harass unit... With the addition of the Oracle I doubt that we'll see the Robo being so standard though, so that's always a nice thing. It's not an anti-harass unit, its to deal with those lategame scenarios where 'the zerg has 40-50 mutas'. You don't see 40-50 mutas in ZvP in top level play, so obviously this is for the lower level players. It will be great at killing overlords and air control in general zvp though, like a stronger void ray. Yes, it's like a super phoenix.
a lot of people I think are overreacting to banelings being able to burrow. infestors can move while burrowed at lair tech and kill just as many if not more workers, or sometimes the expansions themselves . banes can only move while burrowed at hive tech, and are one-time use while infestors can hide away and do it again later
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On October 26 2011 18:16 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:19 Belial88 wrote:I don't know if anyone knows but can the Shredder killed burrowed moving units or units it can't see?
ex: burrowed roaches/infestors or DT's
Sorry if this was already answered. Yes. The Replicant is extremely unreliable for the opponent, far from an unscouted building or an added tech path. In its current state it also acquires ALL upgrades Depending on the replication range and the attention (or sheer luck) of the opponent he could in a PvZ MU find ten or so Infested Terrans in his mineral-line or in PvT a cloaked Banshee in his respective mineral-line. Replicant is just to address the problem of Protoss not having enough strategies. Yes, the replicant is expensive and probably useless. But you can't tell me that it won't be responsible for at least ONE new strategy for Protoss - maybe warp prism + infestor for worker harass, or replicating a shredder and using it for map control. Blizzard said they feel Protoss doesn't really have enough strategies. The replicant is hopefully to solve this. It won't add to the deathball, they think the Protoss army is pretty much fine, but that Protoss lacks strategic options. Hopefully we will see this unit scratched, amongst with a few more things seen at Blizzcon (like the inexplicable burrowed Baneling-movement forcing detectors at your mineral lines at all times. A Baneling suddenly became so much more volatile and I cannot express enough resentment towards this change. It's a hive tech upgrade that's expensive and takes a long time to upgrade. I think as a T/P I'd much rather see a Zerg go for banelings in the super late game, instead of getting ultralisks or broodlords. The change is pretty useless, but may make things interesting. That's all. Blizzard said it could be completely imbalanced, but they want to see what happens with it. Jesus christ, chill out, we aren't even close to alpha yet, they are planning on more new units and much more changes. HOTS won't even be out by next blizzcon. You already need detectors at your mineral lines due to mutalisks (missile turrets/cannons), infestors, and roaches. Burrowed banelings won't make anything different for terran, it just makes it easier to use baneling land mines for Zerg. The Tempest is also a cool unit, but once again a unit passively forces the third tech path to this time have what seems to be the least bothersome anti-air harass unit... With the addition of the Oracle I doubt that we'll see the Robo being so standard though, so that's always a nice thing. It's not an anti-harass unit, its to deal with those lategame scenarios where 'the zerg has 40-50 mutas'. You don't see 40-50 mutas in ZvP in top level play, so obviously this is for the lower level players. It will be great at killing overlords and air control in general zvp though, like a stronger void ray. Yes, it's like a super phoenix. a lot of people I think are overreacting to banelings being able to burrow. infestors can move while burrowed at lair tech and kill just as many if not more workers, or sometimes the expansions themselves . banes can only move while burrowed at hive tech, and are one-time use while infestors can hide away and do it again later
Add the eye stalk and it becomes a spider mine-1. So imho, burrowed banelings do add MORE scouting options to a Zerg than just overlords.
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banes can only move while burrowed at hive tech, and are one-time use while infestors can hide away and do it again later Well, imagine a terran that happens to have no raven with his marines/tank army (say it was sniped by patrolling mutas). The zerg burrow-moves 2 banelings under a bunch of marines that protect the siege tanks. If the terran gets a lucky scan, you lose 100/50. If he doesn't, boom.
Protoss will be a little better because observers are cloaked (and comparatively cheap), but that can be really scary in ZvT.
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On October 26 2011 16:07 Tazerenix wrote:
a. Replicate an enemy zealot and get charge researched for your zealots and
b. Replicate an enemy stalker and get blink researched for your stalkers
I'm pretty sure you just get the upgrades for the single unit that your replicator transforms into.
So if you replicate an enemy stalker, you'll get one stalker with blink, regardless if you or your enemy has researched blink yet on your ordinary stalkers. The replicated unit possibly even gets full weapons/armor/shield upgrades (can anyone confirm this?).
Some viable uses as I see it would be to copy an enemy banshee/void ray/oracle/DT that is harassing you, and counter with an harass of your own. Vs terran this could allow you to get cloaked banshees out before your opponent does, and make terrans think twice before rushing to banshees. In fact, it'll likely be a very good anti-harass unit in general.
Or it could be used to copy spell-casters like infestors/vipers/HT:s/ravens/ghosts to gain new abilities, or stronger units like immortals, siege-tanks and brood lords to get additional fire power.
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EPT
