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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
There is simply not enough DPS to deal with Terran at that point in the game. Why did Blizz give protoss force fields? To divide up Superior army others race can field.
For example in Puma vs kiwi today
PuMa
24 Marines = 168DPS 1200 HP
12 SCVs = 40 DPS 600 HP
4 Tanks = 106 DPS 640 HP
3 Banshees = 58 DPS 420 HP
Total = 372 DPS and 2860 HP
Kiwi
2 Immortals = 68DPs 600HP
8 Zealots = 106 DPS 1200HP
3 sentry = 18 DPS 240 HP
4 Phoenix = 72 DPS 720 HP
2 stalker = 20 DPS 320 HP
Total 284 DPS 3080 HP
That's almost 100 less DPS with no AoE kiwi could bring. There is no unit composition which will bring even close to terran at that point in the game so you must divide army. Thing is Siege Tanks and to a lessor extent banshees stop that possibility. Terran Army stays tight and sentries get killed on approach. Even if they get a divide the tanks still shoot up 13 range!
No amount of theory crafting will negate this DPS and AoE advantage Terran has at this point in the game. There is a reason this build does not work vs Zerg. They have both DPS and AoE (banes) to deal with it.
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On August 28 2011 16:34 FishForThought wrote:
1/1/1 relies heavily on gas doesn't it? Isn't the most logical thing for the toss to do is an early gas steal? This will force the terran to abandon 1/1/1 or go for a late push?
Your second gas doesn't need to start til your factory is like halfway done, and gas steal impacts the protoss opener too. I think you'd be slowing yourself down more than the terran, who might be a LITTLE late on his banshees - which are more of a spotter than anything else.
On August 28 2011 16:36 tdt wrote:
There is simply not enough DPS to deal with Terran at that point in the game. Why did Blizz give protoss force fields? To divide up Superior army others race can field.
For example in Puma vs kiwi today
PuMa
24 Marines = 168DPS 1200 HP
12 SCVs = 40 DPS 600 HP
4 Tanks = 106 DPS 640 HP
3 Banshees = 58 DPS 420 HP
Total = 372 DPS and 2860 HP
Kiwi
2 Immortals = 68DPs 600HP
8 Zealots = 106 DPS 1200HP
3 sentry = 18 DPS 240 HP
4 Phoenix = 72 DPS 720 HP
2 stalker = 20 DPS 320 HP
Total 284 DPS 3080 HP
That's almost 100 less DPS with no AoE kiwi could bring. There is no unit composition which will bring even close to terran at that point in the game so you must divide army. Thing is Siege Tanks and to a lessor extent banshees stop that possibility. Terran Army stays tight and sentries get killed on approach. Even if they get a divide the tanks still shoot up 13 range!
No amount of theory crafting will negate this DPS and AoE advantage Terran has at this point in the game. There is a reason this build does not work vs Zerg. They have both DPS and AoE (banes) to deal with it.
Uh, guardian shield? Drops marine dps by 60 or something. You're also ignoring zealot's base 1 armor, dropping it by another 30... Ultimately you throw out some theorycrafting and then attempt to say that your theorycrafting proves that theorycrafting doesn't work. You're also not including the fact that as shit dies, your damage drops, and tanks are splashing on marines.
I'm going to want to analyze the replay, but I really feel that Kiwi snarfed into a siege line and threw away that game. I'm not arguing that it was any of the following: winnable/losable/unwinnable/unlosable if he DIDN'T do that. He was in a really tight situation. But he could have bought more time, and time was on his side, despite how it may feel (based on income tab)
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I like Kiwi's theory behind holding the push.
I think he could have maybe picked up ONE tank? Maybe two? And then FF the marines, with the sentries, AND THEN focus down the banshees with the sentries.
That way, your zealots can get up onto the siege lines. I wish Zealot Bombing was viable in SC2, cause I feel like that could actually do work. Maybe once the Prism buff goes through?
Enough of that, I think that this new patch is going to attempt to 'fix' this problem with the barracks change. Albeit haphazard, it may work. Giving a larger timing window for Protoss to pressure early game coouuuullllddd possibly give us a way to get inside the base to see the 'unscoutable' all-in. A few less marines, maybe its easier to poke up ramp with a few stalkers early on?
I wish MC had some genius, glorious, kratoss-style way of holding this, but sadly even my boy the Kratoss can't seem to hold these rushes effectively. Also - about point 2 above, I don't think it was a good place to engage at all. His thinking seemed to be that he could FF much easier in that spot, but it ended up keeping him from getting to the tanks.
Hopefully soon the all-in gets figured out so that we don't see a gradual decline in Professional Protoss play. I feel like if this keeps sustaining as a standard style, Pros will start to switch from, or just completely avoid, playing Protoss in the future.
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On August 28 2011 16:30 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 15:16 shouri wrote:On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote:On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote:
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated. I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields. It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes. lol those are about as good forcefields you can get, getting half the marines you can't be serious to expect a full forcefield cup on marines while there are tanks and banshees in the mix - forcefield range is NOT far I dunno, whether you blame Kiwi's forcefields or his immortal positioning, his immortals couldn't get to the tanks, and smashing the siegetanks is the key to holding off the push. Once those are down, zealots with some sentry backup can handle marines just fine. I feel like engaging in the middle there was a poor choice for kiwi, as well as losing so much health on his phoenixes. Why not force the siege, pull back, rinse repeat? He's got like 12 SCVs there, so why didn't kiwi go into time-buying tactics! I THOUGHT that's what kiwi was doing, but then he went and charged in. Shouldn't he have made puma inch his way forward? They even showed the income tab, puma was basically on 1 gas and less mineral income than Kiwi, because he pulled SCVs. Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 16:25 DestinedOne wrote:On August 28 2011 16:20 CyanideXN wrote:
just rewatched the kiwi vs. puma game a few more times (http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Raleigh_Red, skip to about 11:11:30)
1. when terran is out in the middle of the map like that is it possible to do a zerg-style pick off reinforcing marines with a few zealots and stalkers as they come down the ramp? it would delay the push (force terran to pull back units to deal with it) or prevent them from building up a larger army.
2. was kiwi's engagement wise (all 4 tanks were sieged when he charged in, he barely touched the three in the back) or should he have kept delaying and backing up? he was doing an amazing job with the phoenix delaying for as long as possible.
3. should you pick up tanks with the phoenix or try to kill the banshees? seems like lifting tanks is the way to go since tanks do much more dps and your zealots will live longer, but kiwi chose to kill the banshees first. I think about your third point, picking off the banshees first was a better idea because first of all kiwi had almost no anti-air (sentries) other then the phoenix, and picking up the tanks would cause an aggro effect where the terran would snipe the phoenix, and then win no matter what since there is no anti air. Although that zerg style you're talking about is a good idea.  I dunno, he could warp in a couple stalkers if he cleaned up the rest of the push, or chrono out another phoenix (only 25 sec) - banshee DPS isn't THAT bad. Really feels like the tanks are what makes the push work, even though the marines are the unit that does most of the damage - without tanks, you can just sentry zealot them to hell and back. I don't think kiwi was in a good position to go tank-lifting, though. I think maybe if he was going to do that, he should have pulled back, waited for the unsiege, and then lift tanks while charging in, so he isn't eating the long-range volleys of FOUR siege tanks on all his units. He really just charged into a siege line there. I didn't like that engage at all.
I think you might be underestimating Banshees. 1 banshee beats a stalker correct? and kiwi had 4 gates, so best case scenario, nothing left but 3 banshees, and 4 stalkers, I think banshees would barely edge out would they not?
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I like the information on counters and such trying to figure out why it works and the response. This eerily feels like how Zerg was having troubles against 'everything'. Most of this comes from players figuring out the optimal way to 'win' within the game balance and I'm not surprised Terran reached it first - perhaps the only way to fix it is with a patch, but then again I haven't seen 'real numbers' and don't consider forum posts from Korea any more accurate than TL.
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On August 28 2011 16:36 tdt wrote:
There is simply not enough DPS to deal with Terran at that point in the game. Why did Blizz give protoss force fields? To divide up Superior army others race can field.
For example in Puma vs kiwi today
PuMa
24 Marines = 168DPS 1200 HP
12 SCVs = 40 DPS 600 HP
4 Tanks = 106 DPS 640 HP
3 Banshees = 58 DPS 420 HP
Total = 372 DPS and 2860 HP
Kiwi
2 Immortals = 68DPs 600HP
8 Zealots = 106 DPS 1200HP
3 sentry = 18 DPS 240 HP
4 Phoenix = 72 DPS 720 HP
2 stalker = 20 DPS 320 HP
Total 284 DPS 3080 HP
That's almost 100 less DPS with no AoE kiwi could bring. There is no unit composition which will bring even close to terran at that point in the game so you must divide army. Thing is Siege Tanks and to a lessor extent banshees stop that possibility. Terran Army stays tight and sentries get killed on approach. Even if they get a divide the tanks still shoot up 13 range!
No amount of theory crafting will negate this DPS and AoE advantage Terran has at this point in the game. There is a reason this build does not work vs Zerg. They have both DPS and AoE (banes) to deal with it.
Kiwi realistically should have won that game.
Kiwi engaged PuMa, but he had no need whatsoever to. If anything, PuMa's SCVs meant the longer that it took before the engagement the larger advantage he would have had because he had a significantly stronger army. If both players sat their in a standoff, Kiwi would have won by sheer numbers; PuMa would have had to engage Kiwi, not the other way around... had Kiwi sat tight eventually PuMa would have had to unsiege and move forward, giving Kiwi an ideal enagement where tanks either seige late or not at all.
Second of all, Kiwi had rather poor forcefields in which half of his units weren't attacking while all of Terrans were. Ideally you'd want to Isolate the Terran army while still having all your units attack, this also would have been much easier if Terran was the one starting the engagement.
You know what can and will negate that DPS/AoE Advantage? delaying the push, like Kiwi did, and could have continued to do.
There is no denying that 1/1/1 is very very strong, but I don't think it is unbeatable.
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On August 28 2011 16:36 tdt wrote:
There is simply not enough DPS to deal with Terran at that point in the game. Why did Blizz give protoss force fields? To divide up Superior army others race can field.
For example in Puma vs kiwi today
PuMa
24 Marines = 168DPS 1200 HP
12 SCVs = 40 DPS 600 HP
4 Tanks = 106 DPS 640 HP
3 Banshees = 58 DPS 420 HP
Total = 372 DPS and 2860 HP
Kiwi
2 Immortals = 68DPs 600HP
8 Zealots = 106 DPS 1200HP
3 sentry = 18 DPS 240 HP
4 Phoenix = 72 DPS 720 HP
2 stalker = 20 DPS 320 HP
Total 284 DPS 3080 HP
That's almost 100 less DPS with no AoE kiwi could bring. There is no unit composition which will bring even close to terran at that point in the game so you must divide army. Thing is Siege Tanks and to a lessor extent banshees stop that possibility. Terran Army stays tight and sentries get killed on approach. Even if they get a divide the tanks still shoot up 13 range!
No amount of theory crafting will negate this DPS and AoE advantage Terran has at this point in the game. There is a reason this build does not work vs Zerg. They have both DPS and AoE (banes) to deal with it.
Well since you have solid numbers of the units kiwi had there, if he did do a warp prism drop like I suggested, and sniped the tanks, that would take 100 dps off of the terran, and equal it up. I think this COULD work, but it relies too much on the terran screwing up. The 111 is so hard to defeat, even theoretically XD
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On August 28 2011 16:37 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 16:34 FishForThought wrote:
1/1/1 relies heavily on gas doesn't it? Isn't the most logical thing for the toss to do is an early gas steal? This will force the terran to abandon 1/1/1 or go for a late push? Your second gas doesn't need to start til your factory is like halfway done, and gas steal impacts the protoss opener too. I think you'd be slowing yourself down more than the terran, who might be a LITTLE late on his banshees - which are more of a spotter than anything else.
75min shouldn't impact the toss's build that much, maybe a slight delay on your first zealot or probe queue?
With an early frontal pressure on the terran's wall (first stalker), it would force the terran to keep his marines up front that would further delaying them from blowing your gas steal assimilator.
Of course, this is all theory craft, but i think it is worth investigating how it would affect the terran.
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There's always a sea of marines left standing whenever someone tries to hold off 1-1-1 without colossus. Kiwi's game showed that as well. Marines come out too many and are too powerful. Marines are supposed to be almost useless without upgrades and medivac yet they are almost invincible.
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On August 28 2011 16:19 DestinedOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 16:09 sekritzzz wrote:On August 28 2011 15:24 DestinedOne wrote:
What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely. Even if you pull off some bisu-tier warp prism immortal drops, the main problem of 1/1/1 isn't actually tanks. Marines are actually the biggest problem with their huge dps. Tanks and banshee add versatility of the 1/1/1. Tanks make FF hard to pull off due to their range and force the protoss back by slow tank pushing (not to mention their high damage with clumped units). banshee are there for the risk of cloak and high dps/force anti-air units. "Kif, we have a conundrum." I remember seeing the end of SeleCT vs Socke at IEM last week - the one where Socke held SeleCT's 111. Im not sure how he did it, but is that viable to always have a chance to kill the 111? Or did SeleCT fuck up somewhere?
I was curious about how Socke held it off so I looked at the videos and noted down some things.
Here's the link for the Socke match link
Socke vs Select
Socke opens 1 gate robo into 3 gate robo into expand
Socke gets Robotics Facility around 7:30
Socke gets Nexus at 7:44
Socke's first Collosus pops at 9:32
At this point Socke has 6 Stalkers, 3 Zealot, 1 Sentry
Select moves out around 10:55 with
4 Tanks, 2 Banshees, 17 Marines, 15 Scvs
Small engagement at 11:13
Socke has 1 Collosus, 8 Stalker, 9 Zealot, 1 Sentry
Socke later gets 1 more Collosus
Select accidentally loses almost every scv because they were following the damaged Banshees when he flew them over the cliff to kill some Pylons.
Actual engagement happens at 11:45
Select's marines and banshees die fast first. Then tanks get cleaned up
Select loses
Puma vs Kiwikaki
Kiwikaki opens 1 gate robo and adds a stargate and 2 more gates after seeing the 111 with his obs
Puma moves out at 8:48 with
4 Tanks, 2 Banshees, 20 Marines
Then later adds 12 scvs
Kiwi delays push with phoenix until 10:18
Engagement occurs at 11:08
Kiwi has 9 Zealots 2 Stalker 3 Sentry 2 Immortal 3 Phoenix
Kiwi sliced the marines and scvs. But if you look closely, he only killed scvs, as Puma still had most of his marines left
Kiwikaki loses
Biggest difference is Select's 111 push was 2 minutes slower because he researched cloak, and made 2 additional Barracks (and still ended up with same # of marines as Puma)
IMO If Socke was up against Puma's 111, he would still have a pretty hard time defending with just 1 Collosus. I think Select's 111 would have killed Kiwi's defense as well.
My P isn't that great, so if anyone else wants to try IMO doing Socke's build with 2 collosus seems pretty good to defend 111 if you can delay the push long enough.
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On August 28 2011 15:16 shouri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 14:24 wats0n wrote:On August 28 2011 14:19 susySquark wrote:
In my opinion its not unstoppable or anything like that, its just very, very easy to pull off at a high level. This ruins ladders and tournaments because it allows players to win games they really shouldn't. You just feel cheated. I agree with this but I also feel that this is important for the growth of the game. Protoss need to learn exactly how to play and beat it with time. Kiwi should see how bad his forcefields were today and next time he should never place such bad forcefields. It's all part of the growth of the game. In time Protoss will be shitting on this build as they figure things out more and more. Patching the game should be a last resort. However the current patch notes are modest and very nice changes. lol those are about as good forcefields you can get, getting half the marines you can't be serious to expect a full forcefield cup on marines while there are tanks and banshees in the mix - forcefield range is NOT far
Yeah as a toss player i was impressed at how well Kiwi forcefielded those marines, even to the point where i thought he might have a shot at killing all the rines. And as people have already stated, the longer you wait, the more marines, so Kiwi HAD to engage. The only way i could envision him having a better engagement that game would be if he warp prism'd (or just a massive flank around the xel naga cavern which is impossible) immortals around the back and went straight for the tanks and went front on with zealots.
I dont see what Kiwi could have done better that game so i guess we can just cross off phoenix immortal zealot sentry from the list of potential counters. Maybe if he made only 1 phoenix to mop up the inevitable remaining banshees and rangeless collosi for the rines?
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On August 28 2011 17:28 PUre.nINE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 16:19 DestinedOne wrote:On August 28 2011 16:09 sekritzzz wrote:On August 28 2011 15:24 DestinedOne wrote:
What if you use a Warp Prism to circumvent the marines, and just fly 2 immortals behind the tanks? It would force the terran to make a decision of pulling back the marines or letting the tanks die :O. And even if the marines were on top of the tanks the whole time, I think it would help with positioning immensely. Even if you pull off some bisu-tier warp prism immortal drops, the main problem of 1/1/1 isn't actually tanks. Marines are actually the biggest problem with their huge dps. Tanks and banshee add versatility of the 1/1/1. Tanks make FF hard to pull off due to their range and force the protoss back by slow tank pushing (not to mention their high damage with clumped units). banshee are there for the risk of cloak and high dps/force anti-air units. "Kif, we have a conundrum." I remember seeing the end of SeleCT vs Socke at IEM last week - the one where Socke held SeleCT's 111. Im not sure how he did it, but is that viable to always have a chance to kill the 111? Or did SeleCT fuck up somewhere? I was curious about how Socke held it off so I looked at the videos and noted down some things. Here's the link for the Socke match linkSocke vs Select Socke opens 1 gate robo into 3 gate robo into expand Socke gets Robotics Facility around 7:30 Socke gets Nexus at 7:44 Socke's first Collosus pops at 9:32 At this point Socke has 6 Stalkers, 3 Zealot, 1 Sentry Select moves out around 10:55 with 4 Tanks, 2 Banshees, 17 Marines, 15 Scvs Small engagement at 11:13 Socke has 1 Collosus, 8 Stalker, 9 Zealot, 1 Sentry Socke later gets 1 more Collosus Select accidentally loses almost every scv because they were following the damaged Banshees when he flew them over the cliff to kill some Pylons. Actual engagement happens at 11:45 Select's marines and banshees die fast first. Then tanks get cleaned up Select loses Puma vs Kiwikaki Kiwikaki opens 1 gate robo and adds a stargate and 2 more gates after seeing the 111 with his obs Puma moves out at 8:48 with 4 Tanks, 2 Banshees, 20 Marines Then later adds 12 scvs Kiwi delays push with phoenix until 10:18 Engagement occurs at 11:08 Kiwi has 9 Zealots 2 Stalker 3 Sentry 2 Immortal 3 Phoenix Kiwi sliced the marines and scvs. But if you look closely, he only killed scvs, as Puma still had most of his marines left Kiwikaki loses Biggest difference is Select's 111 push was 2 minutes slower because he researched cloak, and made 2 additional Barracks (and still ended up with same # of marines as Puma) IMO If Socke was up against Puma's 111, he would still have a pretty hard time defending with just 1 Collosus. I think Select's 111 would have killed Kiwi's defense as well. My P isn't that great, so if anyone else wants to try IMO doing Socke's build with 2 collosus seems pretty good to defend 111 if you can delay the push long enough.
Ok so it looks like Socke's hold is reliable, but only against a certain variation. Kiwikaki did delay the push, but he was delaying it with all his tech. I dont think one could delay the push with Socke's army comp at the time (To get out colossus) simply because the army would be too small, and PuMa would just smash through.
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1-1-1 may be beatable, but the test of whether or not its imbalanced in TvP is whether or not a safe build exists for protoss that can REACT to a 1-1-1 and beat it while still being able to react to and be safe against and beat 2rax+scv pressure or 3rax rushes
If the only builds that counter a 1-1-1 are builds that are auto-lose to 2rax expand, and the protoss must commit to that build before he is able to scout and know which is coming, then that means the protoss must coinflip every game with his builds.
Terran has several safe expansion builds that are safe against pretty much every protoss all-in and are equal with protoss expansion builds. So terran has the option of using a safe build OR using 1-1-1 and instant winning if the protoss got his coinflip wrong and decided the terran wanst going 1-1-1
Zergs used to complain about this, and multiple buffs and nerfs were thrown around and zergs didnt "magically start playing better", instead many balance patches were used to fix the situation zergs were having with these problems.
It is insane that 1-1-1 has such a high winrate, however before we nerf terran i feel there still may be complex builds and answers out there to beat 1-1-1.
(before i say more, i will say i believe the perfect fix to the 1-1-1 problem if a problem even exists would be to give immortals a 30 second buildtime. Kaboom, with this change a toss could crank out 7 immortals in 3 minutes off 1 robo with a fast 2 gasses and no sentries would be needed it would easily demolish 1-1-1 with the ability to warp in 3 stalkers at a time off 3gates if the enemy has too many banshees. zealots + immortals (with zero sentries) will beat tanks+marines (no stim or combat shields) as long as both players have less than 90food which is when the 1-1-1 hits. also with this 30 second immortal change it would be important for the toss to get no sentries because he would have some gas saved up for stalkers and he could have 3 stalkers for the initial attack and if the enemy has 2+ banshees then the toss just warps in 3 more stlakers and keeps up to match the enemies banshee count. A 1-1-1 terran can only make 1 banshee per minute, meaning the toss just needs to make 2-3 stalkers a minute after he has 7 immortals and he will beat the banshees easily)
anyway, im not convined yet that 1-1-1 is imbalanced yet. but if it is, i believe the above is the perfect solution. it wouldnt break PvP,
and i dont think it would break PvZ (a robo could create 3 immortals in 90 seconds which is 750/300 cost and sucks at killing zerglings/hydras, or a robo could build 1 collossi in 75 seconds which is only 300/200 cost and much better at killing lings/hydras and has much longer range)
and i dont think it would break PvT. if anything, letting a toss get out way more immortals off a single robo might help alot of the lategame situations we are see'ing where in MC vs PUMA lategame it seems the terran army just steamrolls the toss army. however this immortal buff wouldnt effect collossi (which all the terrans want to complain about) so i think it would be fine
with all that said, onto my main point of this post. i believe i have found a build that is safe to use against 2rax and also beats 1-1-1. however even if this build truly is safe against all early rushes including 1-1-1 it still is a problem if there is only 1 viable safe build in a matchup.
I am testing this against my master terran friend but i need more practice partners. My friend might not be doing the 1-1-1 perfectly
I am issue'ing the 1-1-1 challenge in this thread. Any player who thinks you can beat me with a 1-1-1 attack on xelnaga caverns please message me and i wanna test this build out against you (pretty much just play exactly like pumas build in game3 vs kiwikaki at mlg raleigh)
i will only accept challenges from high diamond or above players
If i lose i think it will be easy to see if the loss is because of mechanics or because of bad strategy on my part.
I feel if a solution is to be found, Realistically in pure army numbers, protoss CANNOT beat marines AND tanks without collossi or storm.
guardian shield allows protoss to beat high numbers of stimmed marines if the enemy goes mass raxes with no tanks. guardian shield is baller and lets zealots cost effectively fight marines early game
the problem is when tanks/banshees are added its very easy for the terran to ues tanks and banshees to quickly snipe off all the sentries, thus removing guardian shield. zealots without guardian shield suck against marines
Theres two options that let protoss fight marines early game. you can get sentries for guardian shield thus slowing down your tech to collossi, or you could go for super fast robo with fast collossi and some immortals in between.
Almost every toss opts for some sentries. But stim has a very long research time and it may be possible to be safe against early rax pressure without sentries, thus letting you get collossi way faster
i believe ive found a build that takes advantage of this timing
this build im working on seems to be safe against the very fast 2rax marine/scv allin that hits at 4:00 gametime, or the 3rax marine/scv allin that hits at 4:30 gametime, or the 6rax marine allin that hits at 5:20 gametime, or relatively standard marine/scv/marauder pressure that hits at 6:00 gametime, or relatively standard heavy marine/marauder attacks with stim that come at 7-8 minutes
here is the build. The thing about this build is it is completely 100% scoutable by your terran opponent the moment his scv enters your base, however i feel any reaction the terran does to it doesnt give him a insane advantage, only maybe a slight advantage or it makes it a fairly even game
this build gets 2 fast gasses, clearly scoutable by the enemy scv
this build skips making a zealot, clearly scoutable by the enemy scv
this build uses constant chronoboost on the nexus and it doesnt cut probes, clearly scoutable by the enemy SCV (it will notice your nexus has no energy and the gateway isnt making a zealot)
this build gets 200 gas by the time cybercore is done and it makes a stalker+stargate immediately after the cyber finishes. this is completely scoutable by your enemy because it makes a stargate before you can get out a stalker, but the advantage to this is it gets your tech out so much faster
your first stalker pokes your enemies ramp at about 5:00 gametime. if you see a marauder or no expansion building at his natural, you throw down a robo (because it gets no sentries it has enough gas for the robo). this means you are going 1gate/star/robo against a terran build that 100% includes marauders and isnt building a expansion at the natural before 5 minutes
your first voidray comes out at about 5:30 gametime. fly your voidray directly to your enemies base and scout with it. because unstimmed marines and voidrays both have the same movement speed, your voidray is able to fly everywhere around the terran base/natural without risk and give you 100% absolute scouting information.
also, keep a scouting probe between your enemies base and yours in order to see if 6 minute marauder pressure is coming. many terrans will pressure with some scv/marine/marauder at 6 minutes to kill greedy tosses. as your voidray is moving out to scout, if you see this marauder pressure coming you can kill it with voidray+stalkers (voidrays have some movement speed as the marauder) and then scout afterwards
the reason you have to make a voidray first instead of a pheonix is because if the terran went 3rax expand + 6 minute marauder pressure and you opened pheonix, by the time he reaches you with the 6 minute pressure he will notice you are going pheonix and you will most likely die. the voidray is much stronger against the 6 minute pressure than 1-2 pheonix
assuming your terran opponent does not do this 6 minute pressure, you scout with your voidray. with your voidray scout.... if you see your enemy doesnt have a expansion, make the robo support bay before expanding, this means you are going fast 1base collossi against a terran build that isnt expanding fast (which is good for you)
if you see your enemy has a expansion (meaning he most likely went 2rax expand), drop your expansion right away. THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE MAIN WEAKNESS OF THE BUILD. The terran can expand before 6:30 and have a economic advantage over you. This toss 6:30 expansion i believe is slightly weaker in economy to a 2rax expand, however i feel its not that bad because you know your enemy expanded and you can chronoboost out tons of probes nonstop so by the time your nexus is finished you should have okay saturation and the terran shouldnt be too ahead of you in terms of economy. the terran cannot cancel the toss nexus because the will will have stalkers/immortals and will soon have out a collossi. Then the toss should be able to take 3 bases and use defenders advantage and eventually take the game to a 3base vs 3base lategame scenario where lategame decisions decide who wins
With the 5:00 robo, i can have out 2 immortals and 1 collossi by 9:00. combined with some stalkers and zealots and a voidray. with a 3rax expand, by 9:00 the terran can attack you with a big handful of marauders and marines with stim, but i find with good micro that attack is very possible to defend against.
this build should get out 1 collossi, 2 immortals, 1 voidray, some 4stalkers and 7zealots at about 9 minutes enough to defend 1-1-1 or 4rax rushes. the build has an expansion that was dropped at 6:30, but the build also stalker pokes at 5 minutes and if it sees the terran expanding at his natural with that poke the build expands at 5 minutes instead
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You cannot scout with a Stalker, because when you run into a Marauder it is auto-lose.
And if Terran went for a 1Rax FE or a NoGasFe you basically lost, because he'll build Marines only which will defend your StarGate without any problems and then there'll be a stim-timing which is going to kill you.
I don't like Kiwikakis build btw, Robo before Stalker seems to be really exploitable if he's going for some kind of ProxyRacks.
Wouldn't be able on other maps where you can't get inside the Terran's base.
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For posterity, I'd like to cite Puzzle vs. MarinekingPrime on Xel'Naga Caverns in FXO KOTH #3 again, viewable here. Action starts at the 11:00 mark in the video, the first push comes at around 13:00. This match is when I first started having serious doubts about whether 1-1-1 was actually defensible in the current metagame. Puzzle defends the first push magnificently... only to crumble badly against the second push.
Basically everything that could possibly go wrong for MKP and go right for Puzzle does. Puzzle goes 2 gate robo expand, send an observer and immediately scouts the 1-1-1 coming from MKP. He cancels the nexus smartly. MKP's first banshee (with cloak, which proves to be ineffectual in the game) does a small amount of damage but is taken down. Puzzle pre-emptively splits and positions his army in a nice concave, forcing MKP to engage poorly at the choke with destructible rocks in the middle of the map -- his army gets split perfectly with nearly picture-perfect force fields, and Puzzle defends with minimal losses while destroying nearly all of MKP's army and the almost-twenty SCVs he pulled.
Puzzle pressures and snipes a few siege tanks on the ramp for good measure before pulling back and taking his nat again, but MKP simply moves out at the 15 min mark once more... this time with another two dozen SCVs for good measure. Puzzle futilely tries to engage at the destructible rocks choke once more but doesn't nearly have enough army or sentries to pull off the miracle he did the first time around. His army gets crushed and he calls the gg.
I cite this game as a case study in 1-1-1 defense a lot, because I've never seen the first push defended so well, though MKP surely aided him with his errors (losing his first banshee, engaging about as badly as possible in the choke, never sieging up, allowing Puzzle's observer to follow his army the whole time). But it didn't seem to do much good, because MKP simply rolled him with the second push.
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I really hate 1-1-1  every terran I play trys it now. I'm not good enough to stop if but hopefully we'll see a fix or something, maybe in HoTs we'll get a awesome flying unit that we can do 1-1-1 with, like stalker immortal + raider :D
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Hmm new patch 1.4 with guardian shield will definitely help, now that it affects siegetank shots. I still think 1/1/1 is a meta-game phase that will eventually be figured out, its just a matter of time, and ingenuity.
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Anyone tried using phoenixes, it works fairly well for me.
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I can agree with 1/1/1 is broken and needs to be fixed if 4base protoss gets fixed.
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On August 28 2011 18:02 Binabik wrote:
You cannot scout with a Stalker, because when you run into a Marauder it is auto-lose.
And if Terran went for a 1Rax FE or a NoGasFe you basically lost, because he'll build Marines only which will defend your StarGate without any problems and then there'll be a stim-timing which is going to kill you.
wow...can i say in some way that you are rly bad @sc2 and stop write stuff without to offend you?
what do you mean with "if terran went for a 1rax fe or no gas fe"?
if a terran goes for a no gas fe he has no fucking gas, you scout that with your probe
and a 1rax fe is basically a no gas fe
if you mean techlab/marauder expand than yeah your stupid no micro micro scouting Stalker dies maybe a painful dead but he shows you where his gas is 100/25marauder 50/25 techlab 50/50 cs hey wow thats thats thats 100gas wow.
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EPT
